Apple facing antitrust examination in Russia

Posted:
in iPhone edited August 8
Russia has joined the list of countries taking a look at alleged antitrust law violations by Apple, this time, over removal of parental monitoring applications from the App Store.

Apple's Screen Time in iOS 12 on assorted devices


The latest investigation surrounds Apple's withdrawal of parental monitoring applications on iOS. Cybersecurity company Kapersky Lab filed the complaint with the Russian Federal Antimonopoly Service on March 19 following the removal of the firm's Safe Kids application.

"From our point of view, Apple appears to be using its position as platform owner and supervisor of the sole channel for delivering apps to users of the platform to dictate terms and prevent other developers from operating on equal terms with it," Kaspersky said. "As a result of the new rules, developers of parental control apps may lose some of their users and experience financial impact. Most important, however, it is the users who will suffer as they miss out on some critical security features. The market for parental control apps will head toward a monopoly and, consequently, stagnation."

Apple has been removing many of the parental monitoring apps since the fall 2018 release of iOS 12, which not just contained Apple's own Screen Time routines, but also revised the terms of using Mobile Device Management (MDM) routines. Apple says that the pulled monitoring applications were using MDM intended for enterprise improperly, and in violation of the developer's rules.

Prior to app withdrawal, including in Kapersky's case, developers found to be using the MDM in violation of Apple's guidelines were given 30 days to fix the issue and submit an app update. Some did modify apps, losing some functionality in the process -- but others did not and had their wares removed as a result.

"Parents shouldn't have to trade their fears of their children's device usage for risks to privacy and security, and the App Store should not be a platform to force this choice," Apple said. "No one, except you, should have unrestricted access to manage your child's device."

In a Newsroom post in April Apple also denied claims that the removals are related to its own Screen Time feature.

"Apple has always supported third-party apps on the App Store that help parents manage their kids' devices," the company said. "Contrary to what The New York Times reported over the weekend, this isn't a matter of competition. It's a matter of security."

Reuters reports that Kapersky believes that Apple's App Store guidelines allowed for the company's use of MDM. However, the company also claims that it wasn't sure how to get Apple's permission to use it the way it wanted.

Apple is fighting antitrust allegations all over the world. In the United States, the bipartisan investigation by the House Antitrust Subcommittee aims to examine "platform gatekeepers" and "dominant firms," including how much control they have over their respective markets. At its launch, Chairman David N. Cicilline (RI-01) called the growth of monopoly power on the U.S. Economy "one of the most pressing economic and political challenges we face today," with market power of digital markets presenting "a whole new set of dangers."

In Europe, Apple also faces a complaint from Spotify via the European Commission over Apple's share of Spotify's subscriptions, as well as other obstacles that make it harder for streaming services to compete with Apple Music. For example, Spotify cannot replace Apple Music as the default service on Apple's HomePod, giving Spotify a disadvantage.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 30
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    spliff monkeyMacProStrangeDays
  • Reply 2 of 30
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,925member
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted iMessage, data, etc., perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    edited August 8 muthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 3 of 30
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
  • Reply 4 of 30
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,925member
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    edited August 8 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 5 of 30
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 264member
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
  • Reply 6 of 30
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,925member
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    edited August 8 muthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFellerCarnage
  • Reply 7 of 30
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 264member
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to. It is like they use German data centers or Norwegian data centers or Irish data centers because it is practical and economical compared to running their own.  Said countries have more or less identical requirements for where data are to be stored as an example. 

    Doing so also makes it significantly easier to be in compliance with local legislation because the data centers must be in compliance in each and every aspect of their operation from privacy to employee relations to financial transactions and what have you.

    The same data centers are also in compliance with whatever regulations are imposed on them by domestic military and civil intelligence agencies, which (and nobody have to be naive) all countries do. 
    edited August 8
  • Reply 8 of 30
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,925member
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/06/03/russia-requires-tinder-to-share-user-data-with-fsb-reports-a65853
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    edited August 8
  • Reply 9 of 30
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 264member
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
  • Reply 10 of 30
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,925member
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
    Fair enough, experience counts. Seems as tho the laws are changing and perhaps those server requirements along with it. You should check with your contacts as that would be helpful info.

    No comment on the Cook statement concerning foreign data centers?
    edited August 8
  • Reply 11 of 30
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 264member
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
    Fair enough, experience counts. Seems as tho the laws are changing and perhaps those server requirements along with it. You should check with your contacts as that would be helpful info.

    No comment on the Cook statement concerning foreign data centers?
    No.
    If you operate in a market other than your own (legislation) there are just a number of factors you have to observe, follow and factor into the equation. 
  • Reply 12 of 30
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,925member
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
    Fair enough, experience counts. Seems as tho the laws are changing and perhaps those server requirements along with it. You should check with your contacts as that would be helpful info.

    No comment on the Cook statement concerning foreign data centers?
    No.
    If you operate in a market other than your own (legislation) there are just a number of factors you have to observe, follow and factor into the equation. 
    True, and as mentioned earlier no company has an obligation to do business in a country whose terms for doing so don''t mesh with the company's own values and/or goals. There's always the choice of whether to comply or not. 
    edited August 8
  • Reply 13 of 30
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,961member
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    No, Russia is run by Russian Oligarch's led by the mob boss -- Putin.   He is able to recruit the coordinated support of the Oligarch's while integrating the full power of the Russian government on whichever targets those criminals decide.  Including the U.S.
  • Reply 14 of 30
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,961member
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    ... and those Russian companies are run by the Russian Oligarchs who in turn are partners and subservient to the chief Oilgarch:  Vladimir Putin.
  • Reply 15 of 30
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 264member
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
    Fair enough, experience counts. Seems as tho the laws are changing and perhaps those server requirements along with it. You should check with your contacts as that would be helpful info.

    No comment on the Cook statement concerning foreign data centers?
    No.
    If you operate in a market other than your own (legislation) there are just a number of factors you have to observe, follow and factor into the equation. 
    True, and as mentioned earlier no company has an obligation to do business in a country whose terms for doing so don''t mesh with the company's own values and/or goals. There's always the choice of whether to comply or not. 
    Europe is a 755 million people market, of which about 153 million in Russia. The entire continent have comparable legislation and business rules, so unless Apple (and other US companies) are better off without Europe, good luck to them!
  • Reply 16 of 30
    eightzeroeightzero Posts: 2,444member
    Say it with me: "In Soviet Russia, anti-trust finds *you*."
    StrangeDaysCarnage
  • Reply 17 of 30
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,925member
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
    Fair enough, experience counts. Seems as tho the laws are changing and perhaps those server requirements along with it. You should check with your contacts as that would be helpful info.

    No comment on the Cook statement concerning foreign data centers?
    No.
    If you operate in a market other than your own (legislation) there are just a number of factors you have to observe, follow and factor into the equation. 
    True, and as mentioned earlier no company has an obligation to do business in a country whose terms for doing so don''t mesh with the company's own values and/or goals. There's always the choice of whether to comply or not. 
    Europe is a 755 million people market, of which about 153 million in Russia. The entire continent have comparable legislation and business rules, so unless Apple (and other US companies) are better off without Europe, good luck to them!
    Are all the other EU countries using laws demanding that Apple decrypt otherwise private user data including text and call on demand of security services? Are all other EU countries trying to establish their own mini Chinese-style "Great Firewalls" to separate themselves from the rest of the continent? I think not.

    If Russia wants to act as they're separate why can't Apple treat them as separate for market purposes. In fact doesn't Apple do that now?
    edited August 8
  • Reply 18 of 30
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 264member
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
    Fair enough, experience counts. Seems as tho the laws are changing and perhaps those server requirements along with it. You should check with your contacts as that would be helpful info.

    No comment on the Cook statement concerning foreign data centers?
    No.
    If you operate in a market other than your own (legislation) there are just a number of factors you have to observe, follow and factor into the equation. 
    True, and as mentioned earlier no company has an obligation to do business in a country whose terms for doing so don''t mesh with the company's own values and/or goals. There's always the choice of whether to comply or not. 
    Europe is a 755 million people market, of which about 153 million in Russia. The entire continent have comparable legislation and business rules, so unless Apple (and other US companies) are better off without Europe, good luck to them!
    Are all the other EU countries using laws demanding that Apple de-crypt otherwise private user data including text and call on demand of security services? Are all other EU countries trying to establish their own mini Chinese-style "Great Firewalls" to separate themselves from the rest of the continent? I think not. 
    The only reason why Russia is establishing their own Internet infrastructure is because of US aggression, and so they don't will sit there with a dark net if the US decides to pull the plug on them (which is highly likely given the instability of US decision makers these days). 

    The EU is about to pass legislation which mandates decryption for access to information by security services. I don't like the development at all. 
    edited August 8
  • Reply 19 of 30
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,925member
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
    Fair enough, experience counts. Seems as tho the laws are changing and perhaps those server requirements along with it. You should check with your contacts as that would be helpful info.

    No comment on the Cook statement concerning foreign data centers?
    No.
    If you operate in a market other than your own (legislation) there are just a number of factors you have to observe, follow and factor into the equation. 
    True, and as mentioned earlier no company has an obligation to do business in a country whose terms for doing so don''t mesh with the company's own values and/or goals. There's always the choice of whether to comply or not. 
    Europe is a 755 million people market, of which about 153 million in Russia. The entire continent have comparable legislation and business rules, so unless Apple (and other US companies) are better off without Europe, good luck to them!
    Are all the other EU countries using laws demanding that Apple de-crypt otherwise private user data including text and call on demand of security services? Are all other EU countries trying to establish their own mini Chinese-style "Great Firewalls" to separate themselves from the rest of the continent? I think not. 


    The EU is about to pass legislation which mandates decryption for access to information by security services. I don't like the development at all. 
    There's been worldwide debate for years around encrypted communication and not just in Europe. Where did you see that an EU-wide law mandating it is about to be passed? That's an interesting point if true.

    As for what Russia wants to promote as a reason for fire-walling the country does it matter why? Their intent is separation.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 20 of 30
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 264member
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    ElCapitan said:
    gatorguy said:
    Shocking news from the bastion of freedom, fairness, and openness. What's next, Russia will want a backdoor into iOS security to protect their citizens against criminals and terrorists?
    They already do.

    Most fully encrypted messaging services who refuse to share a key with the Russian government are banned or in the process of it, tho iMessage seems to be acceptable at least for now. 

    Like China the Russians are requiring user data to be stored on Russian owned servers as well. Apple has already complied and again like China, Russian law requires the data be de-crypted or otherwise made available to Russian security forces on demand. Their law of course applies to other techs as well, with both Twitter and Facebook now being investigated for failing to comply with Russian security laws. Google initially resisted but also coming into compliance from what I can tell. 

    Of particular interest is the specific wording Mr. Cook gave when asked about storing user data on foreign owned servers:
    “We have servers located in many different countries in the world,” he told Vice News in an October interview. “They are not easier to get data from being in one country versus the next. The key question is how does the encryption process work and who owns the keys if anyone? IN MOST CASES (emphasis) for us, you and the receiver own the keys.” 

    Note that he avoids saying all cases so yes there is obviously a backdoor way of accessing Apple-encrypted messaging and data, perhaps the reason iMessage is still OK there? 
    Most European countries, including Russia, have laws for storing certain types of data on own country soil, something US companies just have to get used to and comply with if they want to stay in that market. The advantage for Europeans is there is far less possibility for the US alphabet agencies to snoop on their data.
    Ownership of the servers is an important detail.  A server owned and operated by Apple or Google or whoever would presumably be the better option but there are a couple of countries that will not allow that, China and Russia being two.

    Agreed that if companies want to do business in a country (they don't have to of course but where there's profit there's reason) they have to comply with that countries current laws. Zero debate about that. 
    It is not like the European countries owns and points to the specific server to use. The servers are owned by subsidiaries of say Apple in the countries in question. 
    What you spout about Russia is blatantly wrong. Russia has an open economy. For China the communist party owns everything, so it is different. 
    The Apple datacenter(s) in Russia ia absolutely Russian owned, Apple has zero ownership of it, and the law requires techs to store user data in facilities controlled by Russian companies. No idea what part of that you are claiming is "blatantly wrong" unless you've read something I've missed, and that's always possible.
    They may very well use Russian data centers, but they don't have to.
    https://jsis.washington.edu/news/russian-data-localization-enriching-security-economy/
    and of special interest
    https://www.digitaltrends.com/web/russia-runet-law-cut-off-access-world/
    I have worked for two companies that both use and have large data centers also in Russia. I know what the requirements are. 
    Fair enough, experience counts. Seems as tho the laws are changing and perhaps those server requirements along with it. You should check with your contacts as that would be helpful info.

    No comment on the Cook statement concerning foreign data centers?
    No.
    If you operate in a market other than your own (legislation) there are just a number of factors you have to observe, follow and factor into the equation. 
    True, and as mentioned earlier no company has an obligation to do business in a country whose terms for doing so don''t mesh with the company's own values and/or goals. There's always the choice of whether to comply or not. 
    Europe is a 755 million people market, of which about 153 million in Russia. The entire continent have comparable legislation and business rules, so unless Apple (and other US companies) are better off without Europe, good luck to them!
    Are all the other EU countries using laws demanding that Apple de-crypt otherwise private user data including text and call on demand of security services? Are all other EU countries trying to establish their own mini Chinese-style "Great Firewalls" to separate themselves from the rest of the continent? I think not. 


    The EU is about to pass legislation which mandates decryption for access to information by security services. I don't like the development at all. 
    There's been worldwide debate for years around encrypted communication and not just in Europe. Where did you see that an EU-wide law mandating it is about to be passed? That's an interesting point if true.

    As for what Russia wants to promote as a reason for fire-walling the country does it matter why? Their intent is separation.
    The EU commission have tried multiple times to pass legislation, but it has been down voted in the parliament every time. They are on with a new attempt, but this time they might succeed.  Much of the pressure comes from the US and the UK, but now that the UK is leaving. France will traditionally veto such measures, but Macron might be swayed this time around. 

    Their intention is having the possibility of separation to protect their own integrity from US aggression. 
    edited August 8
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