iPhone 11: How Apple makes tech of the future affordable

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 101
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 1,033member

    nubus said:
    nubus said: But notice how this doesn't happen on the Mac. A PowerMac used to be $2000. Now Mac Pro starts at $6000.
    The Mac Pro that Apple sells now is FAR more advanced in terms of computing power than the old cheese grater Mac Pros. There's no real comparison. iMacs now easily serve the software uses that you needed to buy a Mac Pro for 10 years ago. And I had to upgrade the GPU in the 2009 model just to run a 4K monitor.
    I would say you can compare Mac Pro and iPhone. The first iPhone didn't have Retina, didn't have 3G or 4G, a giga display, multi lenses, memory,  storage, or the CPU/GPU power of the current models. But the cost was the same as for an iPhone XR. So how come the cost of a Pro desktop Mac has moved from $2000 to $6000?
    The capability of the pro desktops from years ago, now resides in the 13” MacBook Air. That is, the prices have come down substantially. Pro desktops today are for a more niche market — important but niche. If you’re in that niche, $6000 is cheap.
  • Reply 82 of 101
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,902member
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    No it isn't. They aren't even comparable.

    Google depends on search to a fair degree but how many viable competitors can you name? Google search is so ingrained as to be a habit in the western world. Something that is independent of platform and OS. 

    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 83 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    edited September 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 84 of 101
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,902member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


  • Reply 85 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    edited September 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 86 of 101
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,902member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
  • Reply 87 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    edited September 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 88 of 101
    nubusnubus Posts: 488member
    tmay said:
    Sure, Apple could make a Mac XR, whatever that would be, though I don't know of any marketing reason that would make sense.

    If we agree that having iPhone XR makes sense, then why wouldn't the same apply to the Mac?
  • Reply 89 of 101
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,902member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    edited September 2019
  • Reply 90 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member
    nubus said:
    tmay said:
    Sure, Apple could make a Mac XR, whatever that would be, though I don't know of any marketing reason that would make sense.

    If we agree that having iPhone XR makes sense, then why wouldn't the same apply to the Mac?
    Mac Mini,  MBA and MBP's cover the low end, so your looking for something in-between Mac Mini and Mac Pro, but as I've stated before, just finance the Mac Pro.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 91 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 92 of 101
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,902member
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
  • Reply 93 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
    The importance of the Mate 30, is that it might be the first Huawei model shipped into the West that lacks Google Services. That's pretty obviously a liability. 

    Apple isn't going to be hurt by a later 5G rollout next year, because they are going to be getting the second generation Qualcomm modem, and the current models available in the U.S. are having issues with overheating, so it does seem likely that Apple will see 200m in sales next cycle.

    BTW, I don't buy the analyst in your link that thinks that Apple will sell more iPhones. There's no insight behind the speculation as to why that would happen, and I stick with my normal "iPhone and Android OS device markets are for the most part separate".


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 94 of 101
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,902member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
    The importance of the Mate 30, is that it might be the first Huawei model shipped into the West that lacks Google Services. That's pretty obviously a liability. 

    Apple isn't going to be hurt by a later 5G rollout next year, because they are going to be getting the second generation Qualcomm modem, and the current models available in the U.S. are having issues with overheating, so it does seem likely that Apple will see 200m in sales next cycle.

    BTW, I don't buy the analyst in your link that thinks that Apple will sell more iPhones. There's no insight behind the speculation as to why that would happen, and I stick with my normal "iPhone and Android OS device markets are for the most part separate".


    Keyword is 'might'.

    Truth is we just don't know. There are rumours for all tastes. That's why I didn't mention it. Especially as the announcement is so near. We will know for sure very soon.

    At least you now seem to be getting it into your head why I didn't touch on that phone.

    If Huawei cannot compete with Apple on a level playing field, Apple will have less competition. It will benefit from that. It would be like going back to the duopoly in some regards.
  • Reply 95 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
    The importance of the Mate 30, is that it might be the first Huawei model shipped into the West that lacks Google Services. That's pretty obviously a liability. 

    Apple isn't going to be hurt by a later 5G rollout next year, because they are going to be getting the second generation Qualcomm modem, and the current models available in the U.S. are having issues with overheating, so it does seem likely that Apple will see 200m in sales next cycle.

    BTW, I don't buy the analyst in your link that thinks that Apple will sell more iPhones. There's no insight behind the speculation as to why that would happen, and I stick with my normal "iPhone and Android OS device markets are for the most part separate".


    Keyword is 'might'.

    Truth is we just don't know. There are rumours for all tastes. That's why I didn't mention it. Especially as the announcement is so near. We will know for sure very soon.

    At least you now seem to be getting it into your head why I didn't touch on that phone.

    If Huawei cannot compete with Apple on a level playing field, Apple will have less competition. It will benefit from that. It would be like going back to the duopoly in some regards.
    Duopoly?

    There's iPhone and Android OS devices; that's the duopoly. Samsung is the most vertically integrated Android OS device maker, so of course, they have always had an advantage in that market

    Again, Samsung and some of the other Chinese OEM's will benefit, but do you really thing that Huawei users, yourself included, would move from Android OS devices to iPhone because Huawei isn't a player? More to the point, Samsung hasn't actually done all that well in China of late.

    That doesn't make any sense at all, yet that is what it would take for Apple to benefit.

    You use rumors to your advantage when it suits you, but when you are at a disadvantage, you attempt to keep that all off the table. The fact is, that if Huawei doesn't get to keep using Google Services, they are at a huge disadvantage in the West. That's a fact.

    And just so you know, the UK has called out China;

    https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1VW1MH?wpisrc=nl_cybersecurity202&wpmm=1&__twitter_impression=true

    "Britain will make a decision soon about whether to allow Huawei equipment to be used in its 5G networks but China must play by the rules if it gets access to Western markets, Defense Secretary Ben Wallace said."
    edited September 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 96 of 101
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,902member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
    The importance of the Mate 30, is that it might be the first Huawei model shipped into the West that lacks Google Services. That's pretty obviously a liability. 

    Apple isn't going to be hurt by a later 5G rollout next year, because they are going to be getting the second generation Qualcomm modem, and the current models available in the U.S. are having issues with overheating, so it does seem likely that Apple will see 200m in sales next cycle.

    BTW, I don't buy the analyst in your link that thinks that Apple will sell more iPhones. There's no insight behind the speculation as to why that would happen, and I stick with my normal "iPhone and Android OS device markets are for the most part separate".


    Keyword is 'might'.

    Truth is we just don't know. There are rumours for all tastes. That's why I didn't mention it. Especially as the announcement is so near. We will know for sure very soon.

    At least you now seem to be getting it into your head why I didn't touch on that phone.

    If Huawei cannot compete with Apple on a level playing field, Apple will have less competition. It will benefit from that. It would be like going back to the duopoly in some regards.
    Duopoly?

    Again, Samsung and some of the other Chinese OEM's will benefit, but do you really thing that Huawei users, yourself included, would move from Android OS devices to iPhone because Hauwei isn't a player? 

    That doesn't make any sense at all, yet that is what it would take for Apple to benefit.
    You and I know too much about what we want, to be easily persuaded to switch platforms. There are lots of others who care a little less and have had both systems at some point or another. Then there is another group that will literally accept the opinion of the 'expert' in the shop.

    Huawei and Samsung have a truly massive presence here (both in client mindset and physical stores) and in big tech retailers like Media Markt you will see areas dedicated to both brands with Apple products too.

    If Huawei can't put a product on the market in equal conditions to competitors, those competitors gain an advantage. Apple is one of the three major brands and would gain as a result. Samsung would also gain.
  • Reply 97 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
    The importance of the Mate 30, is that it might be the first Huawei model shipped into the West that lacks Google Services. That's pretty obviously a liability. 

    Apple isn't going to be hurt by a later 5G rollout next year, because they are going to be getting the second generation Qualcomm modem, and the current models available in the U.S. are having issues with overheating, so it does seem likely that Apple will see 200m in sales next cycle.

    BTW, I don't buy the analyst in your link that thinks that Apple will sell more iPhones. There's no insight behind the speculation as to why that would happen, and I stick with my normal "iPhone and Android OS device markets are for the most part separate".


    Keyword is 'might'.

    Truth is we just don't know. There are rumours for all tastes. That's why I didn't mention it. Especially as the announcement is so near. We will know for sure very soon.

    At least you now seem to be getting it into your head why I didn't touch on that phone.

    If Huawei cannot compete with Apple on a level playing field, Apple will have less competition. It will benefit from that. It would be like going back to the duopoly in some regards.
    Duopoly?

    Again, Samsung and some of the other Chinese OEM's will benefit, but do you really thing that Huawei users, yourself included, would move from Android OS devices to iPhone because Hauwei isn't a player? 

    That doesn't make any sense at all, yet that is what it would take for Apple to benefit.
    You and I know too much about what we want, to be easily persuaded to switch platforms. There are lots of others who care a little less and have had both systems at some point or another. Then there is another group that will literally accept the opinion of the 'expert' in the shop.

    Huawei and Samsung have a truly massive presence here (both in client mindset and physical stores) and in big tech retailers like Media Markt you will see areas dedicated to both brands with Apple products too.

    If Huawei can't put a product on the market in equal conditions to competitors, those competitors gain an advantage. Apple is one of the three major brands and would gain as a result. Samsung would also gain.
    You still have no data to back up your premise, and most of the existing data shows a consistent and small movement of Android OS users to iPhone. I haven't seen anything the would indicate a change in that if Huawei falls.

    You really need to stop making shit up.
    edited September 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 98 of 101
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,902member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
    The importance of the Mate 30, is that it might be the first Huawei model shipped into the West that lacks Google Services. That's pretty obviously a liability. 

    Apple isn't going to be hurt by a later 5G rollout next year, because they are going to be getting the second generation Qualcomm modem, and the current models available in the U.S. are having issues with overheating, so it does seem likely that Apple will see 200m in sales next cycle.

    BTW, I don't buy the analyst in your link that thinks that Apple will sell more iPhones. There's no insight behind the speculation as to why that would happen, and I stick with my normal "iPhone and Android OS device markets are for the most part separate".


    Keyword is 'might'.

    Truth is we just don't know. There are rumours for all tastes. That's why I didn't mention it. Especially as the announcement is so near. We will know for sure very soon.

    At least you now seem to be getting it into your head why I didn't touch on that phone.

    If Huawei cannot compete with Apple on a level playing field, Apple will have less competition. It will benefit from that. It would be like going back to the duopoly in some regards.
    Duopoly?

    Again, Samsung and some of the other Chinese OEM's will benefit, but do you really thing that Huawei users, yourself included, would move from Android OS devices to iPhone because Hauwei isn't a player? 

    That doesn't make any sense at all, yet that is what it would take for Apple to benefit.
    You and I know too much about what we want, to be easily persuaded to switch platforms. There are lots of others who care a little less and have had both systems at some point or another. Then there is another group that will literally accept the opinion of the 'expert' in the shop.

    Huawei and Samsung have a truly massive presence here (both in client mindset and physical stores) and in big tech retailers like Media Markt you will see areas dedicated to both brands with Apple products too.

    If Huawei can't put a product on the market in equal conditions to competitors, those competitors gain an advantage. Apple is one of the three major brands and would gain as a result. Samsung would also gain.
    You still have no data to back up your premise, and most of the existing data shows a consistent and small movement of Android OS users to iPhone. I haven't seen anything the would indicate a change in that if Huawei falls.

    You really need to stop making shit up.
    Why do you always go in circles?

    Data? That was the first question I answered for you in this very thread. Go back and read the answer before asking again. 

    That said...

    https://technode.com/2019/07/24/chinese-iphone-users-are-increasingly-opting-for-huawei-report/

    And this is what competition does...

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/apple-worst-first-quarter-european-smartphone-market-five-years-market-report_id116772

    edited September 2019
  • Reply 99 of 101
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,441member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:

    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:

    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
    The importance of the Mate 30, is that it might be the first Huawei model shipped into the West that lacks Google Services. That's pretty obviously a liability. 

    Apple isn't going to be hurt by a later 5G rollout next year, because they are going to be getting the second generation Qualcomm modem, and the current models available in the U.S. are having issues with overheating, so it does seem likely that Apple will see 200m in sales next cycle.

    BTW, I don't buy the analyst in your link that thinks that Apple will sell more iPhones. There's no insight behind the speculation as to why that would happen, and I stick with my normal "iPhone and Android OS device markets are for the most part separate".


    Keyword is 'might'.

    Truth is we just don't know. There are rumours for all tastes. That's why I didn't mention it. Especially as the announcement is so near. We will know for sure very soon.

    At least you now seem to be getting it into your head why I didn't touch on that phone.

    If Huawei cannot compete with Apple on a level playing field, Apple will have less competition. It will benefit from that. It would be like going back to the duopoly in some regards.
    Duopoly?

    Again, Samsung and some of the other Chinese OEM's will benefit, but do you really thing that Huawei users, yourself included, would move from Android OS devices to iPhone because Hauwei isn't a player? 

    That doesn't make any sense at all, yet that is what it would take for Apple to benefit.
    You and I know too much about what we want, to be easily persuaded to switch platforms. There are lots of others who care a little less and have had both systems at some point or another. Then there is another group that will literally accept the opinion of the 'expert' in the shop.

    Huawei and Samsung have a truly massive presence here (both in client mindset and physical stores) and in big tech retailers like Media Markt you will see areas dedicated to both brands with Apple products too.

    If Huawei can't put a product on the market in equal conditions to competitors, those competitors gain an advantage. Apple is one of the three major brands and would gain as a result. Samsung would also gain.
    You still have no data to back up your premise, and most of the existing data shows a consistent and small movement of Android OS users to iPhone. I haven't seen anything the would indicate a change in that if Huawei falls.

    You really need to stop making shit up.
    Why do you always go in circles?

    Data? That was the first question I answered for you in this very thread. Go back and read the answer before asking again. 

    That said...

    https://technode.com/2019/07/24/chinese-iphone-users-are-increasingly-opting-for-huawei-report/

    And this is what competition does...

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/apple-worst-first-quarter-european-smartphone-market-five-years-market-report_id116772

    I'll accept your data, because it conveniently shows that Huawei could lose 40 to 60 million unit sales. 

    from your first link;

    "Why it matters: Against a backdrop of impending tech restrictions from the US, it appears that a shift in brand loyalty toward domestic brands⁠—particularly Huawei⁠—is intensifying among Chinese consumers.
    • Rising demand for products at home could help Huawei as it faces the possibility of a ban on its purchase of US components next month.
    • The Shenzhen-based telecom giant is bracing itself for steep drop-off in international sales in the second half of 2019, expected to fall between 40 million and 60 million devices compared with last year."


    edited September 2019 watto_cobra
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    Quite the opposite. I have always pointed out how much Apple depended on iPhone and how that was potentially dangerous for the company and why. 

    I don't understand how you can say I 'always' fail to note that iPhone is less than half of Apple's business when that is something that has only just happened and surely will rebound over the Christmas quarter. We will see what happens after that.

    Also, I have periodically made it clear that I refer to the iPhone as a business within Apple. The focus has been on that precisely because it made up a huge chunk of Apple's business (and still does).

    That doesn't mean I don't comment on other aspects, I do, but iPhone remains a key focus point on all things Apple.


    Again as ridiculous as saying that Google and Facebook are "dangerously dependent" on ads.  Absolute nuttery. 
    Apple does not enjoy the same market position as Google search and the revenues associated with it. Apple's competitors are impacting one of its key revenue drivers and introducing advanced technology at the same time. The result has been years of flat sales, a profit warning and now, downward price adjustments across most of the line.

    As I have said all along. This is partly due to competition. Something Google really doesn't have in the same context as Apple.
    You really need to show your work on those statements of yours, because I'm not seeing the competition as having much at all to do with the flat sales of a mature market, or the market headwinds that Apple has faced in the last year. You have never, ever, provided evidence that Apple's iPhone base is losing net users to Android OS, because all the available data is that Apple is gaining net users from Android OS switchers.

    More to the point, I haven't seen anything at all that points to Apple losing its dominance in whatever upper tier of sales they compete in, but if you focus only on unit sales, and you sure as fuck always do, then you need to also be focused on revenue and ASP, because that is certainly part of the story.

    Your statement about Google is quite accurate, and I'm expecting that Google will see plenty of investigations to determine if they need a regulatory intervention.

    Here's my link to data on WW marketshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/

    Oh, and here's data for profitshare;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/chinese-brands-handset-profit-crossed-us-2-billion-first-time-ever-q2-2018/#comment-636

    Here's a link to share of the premium market;

    https://www.counterpointresearch.com/premium-smartphone-segment-captures-one-fifth-smartphone-sales-huawei-captures-double-digit-share-first-time/#comment-629

    It actually has data for the various price tiers.

    Not to throw water on your favored Huawei, but if they don't get some favorable intervention from the Trump Administration, their market will be crashing in the West without Android OS and Google services.

    https://mashable.com/article/huawei-mate-30-screwed-no-google-services/

    "The Mate 30 could take a serious beating particularly in Europe, where Huawei previously saw a 60% increase in phone sales from 2017-2018, but watched as sales plummeted 40%a month after the U.S. blacklisted the company and banned American companies from working with it.

    For Huawei, the Mate 30 will be a test of not just its technology, but its brand. Can the Chinese company's phones still be successful without Google? Sure, it can in China, where it's the No. 1 smartphone maker. But in the west, where Google's services are core to the Android platform, Huawei doesn't stand much of a chance."

    Have a nice day...

    You won't find the evidence you are looking for because Apple would never provide it. It made that clear when they chose to stop providing unit sales numbers.

    That said, I have provided numerous links to all kinds of reports over the last three years and as you are never far behind me, you will have seen them all, LOL!

    In a contracting handset market, Huawei has not only surged forward to leapfrog competitors in many key technological areas but has shipped tens of millions more phones YoY. Looking into those shipments, the premium and ultra premium phones have also enjoyed record YoY growth. It has remained profitable and regularly invested more than Apple in R&D. Strategically it has left Apple and others struggling to keep up. Hence its its advantages in both 5G and positioning in AI and IoT.

    While Apple's sales literally stagnated then took a dive (or pummelling depending on your take), Apple had to hold an 'all hands' meeting to deal with the situation. The result was steep discounting on trade ins that was supposed to be for a limited time only but last all year. That discounting happened even before Christmas.

    In 2017 a third model was introduced and the spread was widened. I praised that. Prices didn't come down with the 2018 refresh which I criticised. It was literally a matter of weeks before the trade in offers went straight to Apple's front page and Apple issued a profit warning. A Yikes! moment if ever there was one. Tim later admitted 'miscalculating'.

    By this time Huawei was eating Apple's breakfast, lunch and dinner in China especially (one of Apple's key markets) and setting the bar even higher on a tech level. Rinse and repeat quarter after quarter with Huawei blowing the roof off with its 2019 half year results. It was by then under US government efforts to literally destroy the company which have continued to this date.

    Fast forward to the 2019 refresh and what is probably Apple's most competitive lineup in years but with important downward price adjustments across almost the entire line. It was the correct decision and I praise it again but it could have been better. Now to see if it pays off.

    Why are we seeing this? Competition. Huawei mainly but Samsung too and many others. We should celebrate this.

    ASP is irrelevant for consumers. I have mentioned this again and again. If you want proof of that, just look at what has happened to Apple at the hands of competitors with far lower ASPs. Has it stopped Huawei registering more patents in 2018 than any other company on the planet? Has it stopped them being highly profitable? Has it stopped them being a world leader in R&D? Has it stopped them from introducing industry leading technologies? Has it stopped them achieving massive growth in handsets? Premium included.

    ASP is irrelevant in this discussion.


    You and I know that when you speak of Huawei and R&D, you are speaking of it over the entire corporation, which includes consumer, telecom, server, and surveillance. Apple's R&D is 100% oriented for consumer, so when you compare their R&D, Apple $14.5B and Huawei some $15.3, billion, it is appropriate to note that. 

    But you don't.

    As for the rest of your post, your opinions don't line up well with the data. At the same time, there has been a lot of ink spilled about the current 5G modems, Qualcomm's and Huawei's missing mm wave bands, and at least at this point in time, Qualcomm's modem's prone to overheating. Most of the comments state that it is too early to buy a smartphone with 5G, as next year's models will rectify a lot of the current issues. The bottom line is that early adopters of 5G Smartphones aren't anywhere close to futureproof.

    You failed to comment on the problems that Huawei has with Mate 30 sales outside of China. Why is that?

    I would also note that ASP is a common way to measure comparative price of competing product lines, and as you look at the pricing tiers, the highest is dominated by Apple, and followed by Samsung. I'll give credit to Huawei for getting a bit of that, but you need an intervention to get you out of the the Unit Marketshare Church, because it isn't a great way of comparing different business models in the same industry.

    All in all, your usual weak effort to understanding Apple's businesses.
    We'll go too far off topic if we follow where you're headed. I didn't comment on the Mate 30 because it doesn't exist yet and I really don't know what the market conditions will be. That one is a mystery but if the worldwide launch is impacted (very probable) Apple will benefit from it for sure in the guise of less competition.

    In the context of this thread though, it will definitely help make tech more affordable.
    Off topic? 

    You're fine with commenting on Apple's problems, but my commenting on the Mate 30 is off limits? You've been pimping it for months right here on AI.

    Fuck off. Really, Fuck off with your constant need to go negative on iPhone. You have issues.

    More to the point, you really aren't a great thinker on the impact of a Google free Mate 30. 

    Apple isn't going to benefit from what ever happens to the Mate 30, because the Mate 30 isn's much of a draw at all to any iOS user, especially with the release of the iPhone 11 Pro's. If you have data that tells otherwise with previous incarnations of the P or Mate series, now would be a good time to post it.

    But Samsung will definitely be one to benefit, along with some of the other Chinese OEM's. 
    Just open a thread and we'll talk about it there. The Mate 30 series launches on the 19th September shrouded in mystery from anything but a Chinese perspective.

    I didn't mention it originally as I can't see what an unreleased phone has to do with this thread. Past Huawei phones, QC, Samsung and others yes, Mate 30 Pro, I'm just not seeing it.

    What do we know? 5G on SoC multimodem. Da Vinci cores. Quad camera setup. Waterfall display. Fewer physical buttons? Superfast wired and wireless charging. Stunning design. Cine camera. Optical heart rate and breath rate monitoring. Second generation 3D depth sensing. ToF. Low light improvements.

    Yes. I'm fine commenting Apple's problems because most of the threads are Apple related. I'm fine commenting Huawei too but from my side I try to put it into an Apple context or when the article itself is Huawei related or when someone says something stupid about Huawei and I give my opinion.

    You didn't do that. You simply asked why I didn't mention the Mate 30 series and I gave you an honest answer. Sorry that disappointed you. Tell me how an unannounced phone fits in here and I'll give my opinion but I know very little about it.

    There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump.
    My point was that you have in fact mentioned the Mate 30 Pro in the past, so, no, you don't get a pass because it hasn't been officially released. More to the point, you can't provide any data that iPhone users are moving to Huawei P or Mate phones in even small numbers. This is your opportunity to do so.

    "There is an article on AI about how Apple could benefit from Huawei's problems with Trump", so fucking link it.
    As I said, if I mentioned Huawei it was because it was relevant to the discussion or someone had said something stupid. That includes the Mate 30 series.

    For example, if we are talking about the rollout of 5G and its importance in the market if Apple doesn't ship a 5G phone this year, the fact that the Kirin 990 5G has an on-SoC 5G modem is of interest because obviously 5G will end up on a lot more phones as a result. Huawei and Honor have already confirmed that they will be using the Kirin 990 5G in their next phones. So we know that aspect of the Mate 30 Pro because it has been confirmed. I have already mentioned this point in the Mate X thread.

    What else do I know about the Mate 30 series officially? Very little. How could I make it relevant in this thread? It's not just the product itself. We don't even know if it will launch immediately in the west nor with what system.

    No idea why you see one model as being so important in this thread. Especially as it will be announced literally in a matter of days.

    As for the link there was no need to include it as it was a minor point but if you need it, here it is:

    https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/211294
    The importance of the Mate 30, is that it might be the first Huawei model shipped into the West that lacks Google Services. That's pretty obviously a liability. 

    Apple isn't going to be hurt by a later 5G rollout next year, because they are going to be getting the second generation Qualcomm modem, and the current models available in the U.S. are having issues with overheating, so it does seem likely that Apple will see 200m in sales next cycle.

    BTW, I don't buy the analyst in your link that thinks that Apple will sell more iPhones. There's no insight behind the speculation as to why that would happen, and I stick with my normal "iPhone and Android OS device markets are for the most part separate".


    Keyword is 'might'.

    Truth is we just don't know. There are rumours for all tastes. That's why I didn't mention it. Especially as the announcement is so near. We will know for sure very soon.

    At least you now seem to be getting it into your head why I didn't touch on that phone.

    If Huawei cannot compete with Apple on a level playing field, Apple will have less competition. It will benefit from that. It would be like going back to the duopoly in some regards.
    Duopoly?

    Again, Samsung and some of the other Chinese OEM's will benefit, but do you really thing that Huawei users, yourself included, would move from Android OS devices to iPhone because Hauwei isn't a player? 

    That doesn't make any sense at all, yet that is what it would take for Apple to benefit.
    You and I know too much about what we want, to be easily persuaded to switch platforms. There are lots of others who care a little less and have had both systems at some point or another. Then there is another group that will literally accept the opinion of the 'expert' in the shop.

    Huawei and Samsung have a truly massive presence here (both in client mindset and physical stores) and in big tech retailers like Media Markt you will see areas dedicated to both brands with Apple products too.

    If Huawei can't put a product on the market in equal conditions to competitors, those competitors gain an advantage. Apple is one of the three major brands and would gain as a result. Samsung would also gain.
    You still have no data to back up your premise, and most of the existing data shows a consistent and small movement of Android OS users to iPhone. I haven't seen anything the would indicate a change in that if Huawei falls.

    You really need to stop making shit up.
    Why do you always go in circles?

    Data? That was the first question I answered for you in this very thread. Go back and read the answer before asking again. 

    That said...

    https://technode.com/2019/07/24/chinese-iphone-users-are-increasingly-opting-for-huawei-report/

    And this is what competition does...

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/apple-worst-first-quarter-european-smartphone-market-five-years-market-report_id116772

    I'll accept your data, because it conveniently shows that Huawei could lose 40 to 60 million unit sales. 

    from your first link;

    "Why it matters: Against a backdrop of impending tech restrictions from the US, it appears that a shift in brand loyalty toward domestic brands⁠—particularly Huawei⁠—is intensifying among Chinese consumers.
    • Rising demand for products at home could help Huawei as it faces the possibility of a ban on its purchase of US components next month.
    • The Shenzhen-based telecom giant is bracing itself for steep drop-off in international sales in the second half of 2019, expected to fall between 40 million and 60 million devices compared with last year."


    Which is why I spoke of competing in equal conditions.

    Nevertheless, U.S technology stalwarts are already pleading with Trump to change tack.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-12/u-s-semiconductor-companies-urge-trump-to-hurry-huawei-licenses?srnd=technology-vp

    Too late. Huawei has stated that it will be completely free of U.S tech dependence (it's already only a fraction of its business) within two years.

    Being the third largest purchaser of U.S semi conductors means that there is a lot to lose for the U.S companies involved. Some say up to 40,000 jobs could be affected. Billions in sales lost.

    If we are talking about making technology more affordable, how do you think having a raft of Chinese, Japanese and European companies substituting U.S counterparts will affect pricing of Huawei's products?
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