<strong>PLEASE GOD BE FIREWIRE AND USB PORTS!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think there's really any chance of that. Why bother putting a USB port on the front, when you've a spare on the end of your keyboard. Firewire there's maybe an argument for, but loads of wires hanging out the front, it's not really "Apple" is it?
This is real, no doubt about it. But we don't know that it's a prototype for the next Powermac revision....it may be an older prototype that was canned. For example, there is the "2001" date on the daughter card, perhaps this means that the quicksilver case was chosen over this design? Just a thought, although I tend to think that this is the real thing, a current prototype for the next tower revision.
I think the key feature of this prototype is the cooling system. This tower is designed to cool a cpu that runs far hotter than the current G4s. Either a new G4 on the 130 nm process, or something else.
Would a 130 nm G4 run very hot? It seems that it would run cooler at the same MHz, but at a higher MHz, it would run just as hot or hotter. I don't know enough about CPUs to know how much hotter a CPU based on the same architecture as the current G4 could run.
In any event, a hotter CPU is good news, since we can assume that hotter=better performance. It also suggests a sort of case design like the "Yikes" mobo, where this mobo will debut with the G4, but is actually designed for the G5. It is very possible that this mobo and case will be introduced with a CPU that doesn't need the full cooling capacity of the case, but in less than a year, Apple will drop in a Power 5 CPU or the like that will run hotter than a Mandrake in heat.
I can't wait for more info to leak. Surely the person who leaked this knows more about the CPU than he/she is letting on?
...but loads of wires hanging out the front, it's not really "Apple" is it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You mean the digital hub?
Apple means ease of use... accesibility.. and design elegance. The front ports are for temporary connections. The back pores are for long term connections. in other words... "ease of use".
But then again these are air vents so what are we talking about anyway....
<strong> I can't wait for more info to leak. Surely the person who leaked this knows more about the CPU than he/she is letting on?</strong><hr></blockquote>
it does seem odd that no real info has been mentioned as to the CPU that is supposedly in the case. the "guy" obviously had time to plug it into a monitor an start the thing up. hell, that's the first thing i'd do. take it for a spin so to speak.
Would a 130 nm G4 run very hot? It seems that it would run cooler at the same MHz, but at a higher MHz, it would run just as hot or hotter. I don't know enough about CPUs to know how much hotter a CPU based on the same architecture as the current G4 could run.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I doubt that a faster G4 would require a cooling system of this magnitude, especially if it's 130nm. The two possibilites I see are a totally new chip (POWER-based, maybe) or a large number of processors (8? 16?).
[quote]<strong>
In any event, a hotter CPU is good news, since we can assume that hotter=better performance. It also suggests a sort of case design like the "Yikes" mobo, where this mobo will debut with the G4, but is actually designed for the G5. It is very possible that this mobo and case will be introduced with a CPU that doesn't need the full cooling capacity of the case, but in less than a year, Apple will drop in a Power 5 CPU or the like that will run hotter than a Mandrake in heat.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, this is exactly the opposite of Yikes!. Yikes! used the old board with the new chip, which meant performance stunk. This board hypothetically uses the old chip with a new board, which means performance will be much improved as the consensus is that the current Powermac's are bottlenecked by the motherboard(i.e. bus, RAM, etc.), not the processor.
The AppleP58(?) guy said on Macrumors forums that he couldn't reveal the cpu.
He said it would 'identify' him.
Make of that what you will. When some 'young gun' big mouth type on the forum got aggressive with him re: proof and credentials...he cleared off. And didn't return.
I'm with JD on this. Why such extensive cooling and massive heatsink for a processor that is nowhere near a Pentium 4 in heat or size?
Surely a G4 with .13 shrink would require the normal amount of cooling we've become accustomed to?
Certainly...the enclosure and motherboard would be last of my concerns if I had a test unit in my clutches. I'd be looking at cpu mhz and how well it ran 3D and Photoshop. Then I'd be curious about the throughput. Hell, why not post some benches to go with the photos?
A G4 on a .13 shrink would hardly identify him? As this is what is expected anyhow...unless...there is ultra security on something even better?
...and the whole 'G5' ready thing. Apple p58 didn't refute the PDF. 'Ready'. For when? Now? Or early next year?
I seem to recall Dorsal describing something like this a long time ago, even before the QS models were released. I remember something about the speaker placement and two full drive bays and internal layout. The search function does not seem to work anymore so I cannot find the thread. Does anyone else remember this? There seems to be a significant gap between the time Dorsal says something looks ready to be released and when Apple decides its ready to be released. Way too long gap.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but if you look at the metal drive face-plate area on the case you can see the reflection of a 2nd machine that looks similar to this. These pictures may have been taken off a production line, if more than one system is just sitting there.
<strong>In response to, "What can Apple Legal LEGITIMATELY do?" The Answer: NOTHING. They can threaten and posture because they're a huge company with lots of money, but they can't do a damned thing. They can crucify anyone with an NDA, but they can't actually touch the news outlet that carries the photos, regardless of how they were abtained. We know this because a while ago Ford Motor Co. tried to get an online magazine to quit publishing spy pics that it had obtained. The judge said no-dice. News-worthy item, if you don't want people to see it, don't let it get seen. Hence, heavily disguised test vehicles that are now the industry norm, even when deep in the confines of a company's own testing facility.
You see, if Motor-Trend runs some pre-production spy pics, nobody can touch them cause the law is on their side and they have the money to stand up to legal bullying. ANy Ziff-Davis outlet could run these shots and Apple wouldn't do sniff about it.
I'm sure most people here saved all the relevant pics. Anyone care to e-mail them to C|net with an explanation of the kind of traffic they'll recieve (though I'm sure they don't really need the explanation)
<strong>This is real, no doubt about it. But we don't know that it's a prototype for the next Powermac revision....it may be an older prototype that was canned. For example, there is the "2001" date on the daughter card, perhaps this means that the quicksilver case was chosen over this design? Just a thought, although I tend to think that this is the real thing, a current prototype for the next tower revision.
I think the key feature of this prototype is the cooling system. This tower is designed to cool a cpu that runs far hotter than the current G4s. Either a new G4 on the 130 nm process, or something else.
Would a 130 nm G4 run very hot? It seems that it would run cooler at the same MHz, but at a higher MHz, it would run just as hot or hotter. I don't know enough about CPUs to know how much hotter a CPU based on the same architecture as the current G4 could run.
In any event, a hotter CPU is good news, since we can assume that hotter=better performance. It also suggests a sort of case design like the "Yikes" mobo, where this mobo will debut with the G4, but is actually designed for the G5. It is very possible that this mobo and case will be introduced with a CPU that doesn't need the full cooling capacity of the case, but in less than a year, Apple will drop in a Power 5 CPU or the like that will run hotter than a Mandrake in heat.
I can't wait for more info to leak. Surely the person who leaked this knows more about the CPU than he/she is letting on?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple historically redesigns computers with major revisions. If they're going to switch processors, there will be much more fan fare, including a complete redesign of the case. From the outside, this case is just another variant of the last few PowerMac cases. I think this case is designed for the next revision. Though I hope it's a prototype that's going to be canned, since it's butt-ugly.
what about 2 or 4 processors? I'm no engineer but 2x50C=100C?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apparently not ;-)
You are correct that with 2x50C you do have about the same amount of energy to dissipate as with 100C, but you handle these differently. One of the big variables you need to consider in cooling is the temperature gradient - the difference in temp between the hottest and coolest things. The chip is the hottest, the air is the coolest. Its easy to transfer heat across a large gradient, but harder across a small one.
If you have a very high temp gradient, then the heat will transfer much more quickly. You run into a limit of how much energy can be transferred in a given amount of time, however. If you don't get the heat off the heatsink to the air fast enough, then the gradient between the heatsink and the CPU drops, and the CPU can't give it's heat off fast enough and it'll overheat. There's a balance to maintain.
The problem with a 7lb 6" deep heatsink is that your heat reservoir (the CPUs, GPUs, etc.) shouldn't run hotter than say 50C. That means that the heatsink will never go over 50C at the point that it touches the chips. The surface areas of the heatsink should be close to the temp of the air (lets say 30C worst case) which isn't a huge temp gradient. The Al fins at the far end of the heatsink from the chip will never heat up - certainly not enough to help cool the chip.
If you wanted a 7Lb heatsink to cool a bunch of 50C CPUs and GPUs, you'd design shallow (say 1") fins over a much larger base area and distribute the chips along that surface. Imagine the mobo with chips distributed across it and and 12"x6"x1" heatsink sitting on top of all of it with air blowing across the 6" dimension. With 1" fins, it'd heat pretty well and have the same surface area. It'd also prevent the problem of the air heating on the leading edge of the heatsink and not producing a high enough gradient on the trailing edge to cool those back fins.
If there really is a heatsink like this, my guess is that it's just a testing heatsink. Something that the engineers use that fits the space and will provide maximum cooling for whatever gets shoved in there - even if it is complete overkill. Remember, these things might have 1 G4 or 4, or 2 G5, etc. (The CPU is on a riser, so who knows what will get jammed in there) The real heatsink would be engineered to require the least amount of material and cost while providing adequate cooling for what's in the final product.
The other explanation is that Apple will be using chips that run at Athlon temps - closer to 100C - and that have wattage requirements far above what we're accustomed to.
Apple historically redesigns computers with major revisions. If they're going to switch processors, there will be much more fan fare, including a complete redesign of the case. From the outside, this case is just another variant of the last few PowerMac cases. I think this case is designed for the next revision. Though I hope it's a prototype that's going to be canned, since it's butt-ugly.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I f i had to guess I'd say this might be another ugly-stepsister kind of thing. Apple made the transition to the basic case form factor with the Blue and White G3 (I still remember the MOSR rumor that Apple was shopping a Strawberry and White variant to resellers *shudders* ) which was pretty ugly and pretty "loud" visually. Shortly later the same case shows up with the G4 and a new Color Scheme that was much more comfortable to the eye. Apple may go daring on this one (economy prolly won't be back till the first of the year anywho) and then at MWSF the faceplate gets a rev, maybe a color change, and a G5 and we're all eating out of Apple's hand and singing how wonderful the G5 is (and leaving unsaid how freakin' ugly we thought the last G4 was). Just a wild conspiracy theory....
Is it just me, or is there a headless man found near the upper left corner of the slightly distorted "new case" picture? Or is it a reflection? I can see a man's right arm from the elbow to the shoulder; the guy's wearing a short sleeve shirt. The missing head might explain the pixelating in the upper handle -- the result of a quick erasure.
One more scary thought, the new case seems designed for loads of heat, the PDF by Apple58 has a mention of the G5 and then the other file Apple58 posted at MacRumors "P58: for XServe and G4/G5 server Firewire based 14 HD rack mount enclosure"which depicts a 3U unit like the one Apple previewed at the XServe launch. Now the unit previewed at the XServe launch used Fiber Channel, so if this "P85" unit is going anywhere it would seem like it would have to have comparable bandwidth. Hmmm, updated Firewire is due soon, isn't it? Then G5 Server, why create a G5 server to run alongside the XServe when you could just put a G5 in the XServe? Maybe the G5's thermal requirements are too much for the XServe enclosure? One last thing, the odd looking metal finish on the front of the Optical drives, I wonder if the whole Optical drive assembly(both drives and the Power Switch Bezel) could be pulled out and rotated allowing you to use your G5 tower in a rack while retaining the use of your Optical drive(s)?
Comments
<strong>PLEASE GOD BE FIREWIRE AND USB PORTS!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think there's really any chance of that. Why bother putting a USB port on the front, when you've a spare on the end of your keyboard. Firewire there's maybe an argument for, but loads of wires hanging out the front, it's not really "Apple" is it?
I think the key feature of this prototype is the cooling system. This tower is designed to cool a cpu that runs far hotter than the current G4s. Either a new G4 on the 130 nm process, or something else.
Would a 130 nm G4 run very hot? It seems that it would run cooler at the same MHz, but at a higher MHz, it would run just as hot or hotter. I don't know enough about CPUs to know how much hotter a CPU based on the same architecture as the current G4 could run.
In any event, a hotter CPU is good news, since we can assume that hotter=better performance. It also suggests a sort of case design like the "Yikes" mobo, where this mobo will debut with the G4, but is actually designed for the G5. It is very possible that this mobo and case will be introduced with a CPU that doesn't need the full cooling capacity of the case, but in less than a year, Apple will drop in a Power 5 CPU or the like that will run hotter than a Mandrake in heat.
I can't wait for more info to leak. Surely the person who leaked this knows more about the CPU than he/she is letting on?
<strong>
...but loads of wires hanging out the front, it's not really "Apple" is it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You mean the digital hub?
Apple means ease of use... accesibility.. and design elegance. The front ports are for temporary connections. The back pores are for long term connections. in other words... "ease of use".
But then again these are air vents so what are we talking about anyway....
MSKR
<strong> I can't wait for more info to leak. Surely the person who leaked this knows more about the CPU than he/she is letting on?</strong><hr></blockquote>
it does seem odd that no real info has been mentioned as to the CPU that is supposedly in the case. the "guy" obviously had time to plug it into a monitor an start the thing up. hell, that's the first thing i'd do. take it for a spin so to speak.
One thing we have to keep in mind is that we don't get these things until the channel clears.
So, i kind of hope that we are in the small majority of Mac users that know/care about this info.
...
MSKR
<hr></blockquote>
The small majority? As opposed to the big majority?
<strong>
Would a 130 nm G4 run very hot? It seems that it would run cooler at the same MHz, but at a higher MHz, it would run just as hot or hotter. I don't know enough about CPUs to know how much hotter a CPU based on the same architecture as the current G4 could run.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I doubt that a faster G4 would require a cooling system of this magnitude, especially if it's 130nm. The two possibilites I see are a totally new chip (POWER-based, maybe) or a large number of processors (8? 16?).
[quote]<strong>
In any event, a hotter CPU is good news, since we can assume that hotter=better performance. It also suggests a sort of case design like the "Yikes" mobo, where this mobo will debut with the G4, but is actually designed for the G5. It is very possible that this mobo and case will be introduced with a CPU that doesn't need the full cooling capacity of the case, but in less than a year, Apple will drop in a Power 5 CPU or the like that will run hotter than a Mandrake in heat.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, this is exactly the opposite of Yikes!. Yikes! used the old board with the new chip, which meant performance stunk. This board hypothetically uses the old chip with a new board, which means performance will be much improved as the consensus is that the current Powermac's are bottlenecked by the motherboard(i.e. bus, RAM, etc.), not the processor.
He said it would 'identify' him.
Make of that what you will. When some 'young gun' big mouth type on the forum got aggressive with him re: proof and credentials...he cleared off. And didn't return.
I'm with JD on this. Why such extensive cooling and massive heatsink for a processor that is nowhere near a Pentium 4 in heat or size?
Surely a G4 with .13 shrink would require the normal amount of cooling we've become accustomed to?
Certainly...the enclosure and motherboard would be last of my concerns if I had a test unit in my clutches. I'd be looking at cpu mhz and how well it ran 3D and Photoshop. Then I'd be curious about the throughput. Hell, why not post some benches to go with the photos?
A G4 on a .13 shrink would hardly identify him? As this is what is expected anyhow...unless...there is ultra security on something even better?
...and the whole 'G5' ready thing. Apple p58 didn't refute the PDF. 'Ready'. For when? Now? Or early next year?
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]
[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
<strong> such extensive cooling and massive heatsink for a processor that is nowhere near a Pentium 4 in heat or size?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe it will be the P4 <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Not the pentium but the POWER from ibm
Or the G5 from Moto ?
Or the hammer ?
...
If you take the image into Fireworks (or any other editor), and resize the image to 450 px wide, it suddenly looks "more normal."
The speaker is round, and the proportions look better.
<strong>In response to, "What can Apple Legal LEGITIMATELY do?" The Answer: NOTHING. They can threaten and posture because they're a huge company with lots of money, but they can't do a damned thing. They can crucify anyone with an NDA, but they can't actually touch the news outlet that carries the photos, regardless of how they were abtained. We know this because a while ago Ford Motor Co. tried to get an online magazine to quit publishing spy pics that it had obtained. The judge said no-dice. News-worthy item, if you don't want people to see it, don't let it get seen. Hence, heavily disguised test vehicles that are now the industry norm, even when deep in the confines of a company's own testing facility.
You see, if Motor-Trend runs some pre-production spy pics, nobody can touch them cause the law is on their side and they have the money to stand up to legal bullying. ANy Ziff-Davis outlet could run these shots and Apple wouldn't do sniff about it.
I'm sure most people here saved all the relevant pics. Anyone care to e-mail them to C|net with an explanation of the kind of traffic they'll recieve (though I'm sure they don't really need the explanation)
[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
That would be hilarious. I think I might take it up unless someone has done it already.
[off-site image]
<a href="http://eupfhoria.8k.com/G5.5.jpg"; target="_blank">http://eupfhoria.8k.com/G5.5.jpg</a>;
Is it just me, or does the bottom handle look horribly wrong?
[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: Eupfhoria ]
[ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: sysadmin ]</p>
<strong>This is real, no doubt about it. But we don't know that it's a prototype for the next Powermac revision....it may be an older prototype that was canned. For example, there is the "2001" date on the daughter card, perhaps this means that the quicksilver case was chosen over this design? Just a thought, although I tend to think that this is the real thing, a current prototype for the next tower revision.
I think the key feature of this prototype is the cooling system. This tower is designed to cool a cpu that runs far hotter than the current G4s. Either a new G4 on the 130 nm process, or something else.
Would a 130 nm G4 run very hot? It seems that it would run cooler at the same MHz, but at a higher MHz, it would run just as hot or hotter. I don't know enough about CPUs to know how much hotter a CPU based on the same architecture as the current G4 could run.
In any event, a hotter CPU is good news, since we can assume that hotter=better performance. It also suggests a sort of case design like the "Yikes" mobo, where this mobo will debut with the G4, but is actually designed for the G5. It is very possible that this mobo and case will be introduced with a CPU that doesn't need the full cooling capacity of the case, but in less than a year, Apple will drop in a Power 5 CPU or the like that will run hotter than a Mandrake in heat.
I can't wait for more info to leak. Surely the person who leaked this knows more about the CPU than he/she is letting on?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple historically redesigns computers with major revisions. If they're going to switch processors, there will be much more fan fare, including a complete redesign of the case. From the outside, this case is just another variant of the last few PowerMac cases. I think this case is designed for the next revision. Though I hope it's a prototype that's going to be canned, since it's butt-ugly.
<strong>
what about 2 or 4 processors? I'm no engineer but 2x50C=100C?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apparently not ;-)
You are correct that with 2x50C you do have about the same amount of energy to dissipate as with 100C, but you handle these differently. One of the big variables you need to consider in cooling is the temperature gradient - the difference in temp between the hottest and coolest things. The chip is the hottest, the air is the coolest. Its easy to transfer heat across a large gradient, but harder across a small one.
If you have a very high temp gradient, then the heat will transfer much more quickly. You run into a limit of how much energy can be transferred in a given amount of time, however. If you don't get the heat off the heatsink to the air fast enough, then the gradient between the heatsink and the CPU drops, and the CPU can't give it's heat off fast enough and it'll overheat. There's a balance to maintain.
The problem with a 7lb 6" deep heatsink is that your heat reservoir (the CPUs, GPUs, etc.) shouldn't run hotter than say 50C. That means that the heatsink will never go over 50C at the point that it touches the chips. The surface areas of the heatsink should be close to the temp of the air (lets say 30C worst case) which isn't a huge temp gradient. The Al fins at the far end of the heatsink from the chip will never heat up - certainly not enough to help cool the chip.
If you wanted a 7Lb heatsink to cool a bunch of 50C CPUs and GPUs, you'd design shallow (say 1") fins over a much larger base area and distribute the chips along that surface. Imagine the mobo with chips distributed across it and and 12"x6"x1" heatsink sitting on top of all of it with air blowing across the 6" dimension. With 1" fins, it'd heat pretty well and have the same surface area. It'd also prevent the problem of the air heating on the leading edge of the heatsink and not producing a high enough gradient on the trailing edge to cool those back fins.
If there really is a heatsink like this, my guess is that it's just a testing heatsink. Something that the engineers use that fits the space and will provide maximum cooling for whatever gets shoved in there - even if it is complete overkill. Remember, these things might have 1 G4 or 4, or 2 G5, etc. (The CPU is on a riser, so who knows what will get jammed in there) The real heatsink would be engineered to require the least amount of material and cost while providing adequate cooling for what's in the final product.
The other explanation is that Apple will be using chips that run at Athlon temps - closer to 100C - and that have wattage requirements far above what we're accustomed to.
<strong>
Apple historically redesigns computers with major revisions. If they're going to switch processors, there will be much more fan fare, including a complete redesign of the case. From the outside, this case is just another variant of the last few PowerMac cases. I think this case is designed for the next revision. Though I hope it's a prototype that's going to be canned, since it's butt-ugly.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I f i had to guess I'd say this might be another ugly-stepsister kind of thing. Apple made the transition to the basic case form factor with the Blue and White G3 (I still remember the MOSR rumor that Apple was shopping a Strawberry and White variant to resellers *shudders* ) which was pretty ugly and pretty "loud" visually. Shortly later the same case shows up with the G4 and a new Color Scheme that was much more comfortable to the eye. Apple may go daring on this one (economy prolly won't be back till the first of the year anywho) and then at MWSF the faceplate gets a rev, maybe a color change, and a G5 and we're all eating out of Apple's hand and singing how wonderful the G5 is (and leaving unsaid how freakin' ugly we thought the last G4 was). Just a wild conspiracy theory....