Hong Kong legislator urges Tim Cook to put 'values over profits, pls!'

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 65
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,034member
    tzm41 said:
    The Hong Kong legislature is the prime example of putting profits over values. They are almost useless for passing laws and regulations to protect the mass from the oligarchs, who control land supply, housing price, and profit distribution... Like Li Ka-shing basically robbed the dream out of all Hong Kongers, and now he moved away with his money.
    I personally believe what we are seeing in Hong Kong is more about what you pointed out than anything else. HK has business owners and working class two distinctly different classes of people. Keep in mind HK was a trading port for a long time, things were made in mainland china and move through HK to points world wide. Those who managed the trade made all the profits, Over many year HK imported people from all over the world to serve those who drive the trade business and they are now seeing they have no future and that future will be far worse once mainland China rolls around the border in 30 yrs. Those with money when this happen will be fine and everyone else will loose.
    tzm41cincymac
  • Reply 22 of 65
    Ciprol said:
    Supporting violence for personal political gain, not much better or worse than Trump! Tim is just being responsible and not meddling in foreign domestic politics, per US Congress and public opinion.
    What is this bullshit?
    Most likely it’s a reference to President Trumps betrayal of our allies in the Middle East...the Kurds.

    It’s the one thing both Republicans and Democrats agree on.  We’re going to have a difficult time restoring our allies confidence around the world.  We’ve insulted just about everyone...Canada, Mexico, U.N (didn’t pay our bills), disparaged NATO.  I wonder were the British Trump baby blimp went...
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 23 of 65
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,145member
    tzm41 said:
    The Hong Kong legislature is the prime example of putting profits over values. They are almost useless for passing laws and regulations to protect the mass from the oligarchs, who control land supply, housing price, and profit distribution... Like Li Ka-shing basically robbed the dream out of all Hong Kongers, and now he moved away with his money.

    I don’t know about that.  For decades HK has been the gold standard in free market capitalism.  It disproved all those who said you needed lots of factories to have a strong economy.  It disproved all those who said you needed trade tariffs to protect the people from imports.  It disproved all those who said that you needed land and abundant raw material resources to be a global economic leader.  It disproved all those who said that you needed high taxes to keep the people heathy, well fed and educated.

    While it has its faults, as all great cities do, HK has been a shining example of how to do many things right.

    Until recently...

    cat52
  • Reply 24 of 65
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,251member
    JWSC said:
    tzm41 said:
    The Hong Kong legislature is the prime example of putting profits over values. They are almost useless for passing laws and regulations to protect the mass from the oligarchs, who control land supply, housing price, and profit distribution... Like Li Ka-shing basically robbed the dream out of all Hong Kongers, and now he moved away with his money.

    I don’t know about that.  For decades HK has been the gold standard in free market capitalism.  It disproved all those who said you needed lots of factories to have a strong economy.  It disproved all those who said you needed trade tariffs to protect the people from imports.  It disproved all those who said that you needed land and abundant raw material resources to be a global economic leader.  It disproved all those who said that you needed high taxes to keep the people heathy, well fed and educated.

    While it has its faults, as all great cities do, HK has been a shining example of how to do many things right.

    Until recently...

    The real deal is to tell the US government putting more pressure on the CCP, not judge the morality of a corporation.  They can't do anything here.
    bb-15
  • Reply 25 of 65
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,145member
    lkrupp said:

    It Would be great that there was a website that focused on Apple technology.
    It’s all about the ad clicks, my boy, all about the ad clicks. 
    But...  But...   Oh, I got nothin’.
  • Reply 26 of 65
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,034member
    k2kw said:
    As long as Most phones and computers are made in China the communistic government will be able to choke Cook’s chain.   Hopefully the trade war by Trump has made Cook Realize Apple needs to move lots of Manufacturing and assembly out of China to India and other Democratic countries.    Ideally Trump would pull us out of WTO.
    Yep most people miss this point, every single one of us are the issue, as long as the world is addicted to the cheap stuff China has a hold on everyone. BTW India is no better than China, it is a Democracy that abuses its people. Everyone could step up and stop buying anything coming out of China, however, it will harm more people outside China than inside China. Everyone hates Trump but if companies leave China and make products elsewhere, then people will not have Chinese blood on their hands because they are addicted to cheap stuff coming out of China.

    No on stood up for the Union works back in the 70's through the 90's when they said Buy American, no people turned their head and buy the cheap stuff from outside the use and these same people who were saying buy American are he same people who voted for Trump.
    bb-15
  • Reply 27 of 65
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,145member
    k2kw said:
    As long as Most phones and computers are made in China the communistic government will be able to choke Cook’s chain.   Hopefully the trade war by Trump has made Cook Realize Apple needs to move lots of Manufacturing and assembly out of China to India and other Democratic countries.    Ideally Trump would pull us out of WTO.
    Ideally, Trump would slap the WTO hard to wake it up to its failure to integrate China as an honest partner that abides by the rules.  But pulling out of the WTO entirely would be counterproductive, as the US would lose all influence.

    As for Apple, I think they've already woken up to the fact that they need to diversify their manufacturing base out of China.  But that’s a long march. 😁
  • Reply 28 of 65
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 1,987member
    In life you pick your battles. No point in taking a stand when you can’t win. China makes the rules here. If Apple had stood its ground and insisted the App stay, it would have accomplished nothing and ended up with a lot of grief from the authorities. Pulling out of China is not an option right now, both from a market and a manufacturing point of view. 

    Sometimes the way it is is just the way it is.  You do what you have to and move on.
    GeorgeBMacbb-15
  • Reply 29 of 65
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,034member
    JWSC said:
    k2kw said:
    As long as Most phones and computers are made in China the communistic government will be able to choke Cook’s chain.   Hopefully the trade war by Trump has made Cook Realize Apple needs to move lots of Manufacturing and assembly out of China to India and other Democratic countries.    Ideally Trump would pull us out of WTO.
    Ideally, Trump would slap the WTO hard to wake it up to its failure to integrate China as an honest partner that abides by the rules.  But pulling out of the WTO entirely would be counterproductive, as the US would lose all influence.

    As for Apple, I think they've already woken up to the fact that they need to diversify their manufacturing base out of China.  But that’s a long march. ߘ᦬t;/div>
    Actually if you look at the WTO, the US is the high bar and we tend to do things in the best interest of most, But the WTO votes against the US most time, the WTO does not help the US it helps everyone else. They done zero to crack down on China or India with their 100% tariffs on everything not made in India. Everyone want to trade with the US since we are the largest consumer market in the world more then China and India with their Billions of people. The US is a fraction of the size of India and China however, we have the largest disposable income of any country so everyone wants to do business with the US, but they do everything they can to keep US companies out of their markets.

    The US does not need the WTO to have influence. the fact everyone was access to our market is enough influence.
    edited October 2019 cat52SpamSandwich
  • Reply 30 of 65
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 2,646member
    ElCapitan said:
    Timmy always put profit over values. Had he not, many things at Apple would have looked different.
    For example their profits, which would look lower. 

    Apple can't escape the reality that most of the people who own the company only care about profits, same as every other publicly traded company. No CEO can survive without putting profits first. The only way in which CEOs have flexibility is whether they are focused on longer term or shorter term profits. Apple has historically focused on longer term profits, and I think that's what they're doing here. 

    For Apple to sacrifice profits in favor of something else (like "values"), Apple would need owners who want them to do that. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 31 of 65
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    ElCapitan said:
    Timmy always put profit over values. Had he not, many things at Apple would have looked different.
    Logic! Logic! If this app is so good, removing it will hurt iPhone sales. Right? Since the app is available on Androids, people will switch to Androids. And this will hurt Apple profit! 
    bb-15
  • Reply 32 of 65
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    And I wonder why he does not promote the Android version to Hong Kong people.
    bb-15
  • Reply 33 of 65
    blastdoor said:
    ElCapitan said:
    Timmy always put profit over values. Had he not, many things at Apple would have looked different.
    For example their profits, which would look lower. 

    Apple can't escape the reality that most of the people who own the company only care about profits, same as every other publicly traded company. No CEO can survive without putting profits first. The only way in which CEOs have flexibility is whether they are focused on longer term or shorter term profits. Apple has historically focused on longer term profits, and I think that's what they're doing here. 

    For Apple to sacrifice profits in favor of something else (like "values"), Apple would need owners who want them to do that. 
    There is a difference between profit an outright price gouging.

    Of course the company must be profitable, but - particularly on the Mac, the current direction of locking down the system, using more and more proprietary and special parts at the expense of upgradability and repairability - in some cases even usability, in combination with the cut-throat pace of one major system upgrade per year which exhausts everyone, including Apple's own developers, is not benefiting the long term profits. There are clearly issues as can be seen in hasty supplementary updates in combination with announced features being delivered long after announcement, and in some cases not at all. 

    I also question the value of what we see as tendencies of displacing app and service developers in exchange for own code and services.  This includes the over-focus on services. In many groups of users, there is a clear direction of not wanting subscription based delivery models. In addition, for business and professional users, very many countries around the world have restrictions and requirements in law where and what data can be stored outside the country. With services offerings mainly hosted in the US, these services are completely out of reach for these customer groups and users.

    This comes in addition to what I see as milking the HW customers to produce AppleTV+ which must take significant focus and attention from what I call core business. It is also a space where Apple have small chances of success even in the short term. IMO it should have been spun off as a separate company that had to fend for itself without milking the HW base. 
  • Reply 34 of 65
    ivanhivanh Posts: 597member
    Tim Cook might have no idea if “one country two systems”. He might have confused and mixed up the Chinese App Store and Hong Kong App Store.

    Banning the HKMap.live is destroying “one country two system” and is destroying democracy in Hong Kong. In this way, Apple is helping a totalitarian regime to build a police state in Hong Kong.

    Tim should now listen, for the first time, to the pro-democratic policy-maker Charles Mok, and revive HKMap.live app on Hong Kong App Store.
    cat52ronnsvanstrom
  • Reply 35 of 65
    RhythmagicRhythmagic Posts: 63unconfirmed, member
    Values over false prophets. 
  • Reply 36 of 65
    JWSC said:
    tzm41 said:
    The Hong Kong legislature is the prime example of putting profits over values. They are almost useless for passing laws and regulations to protect the mass from the oligarchs, who control land supply, housing price, and profit distribution... Like Li Ka-shing basically robbed the dream out of all Hong Kongers, and now he moved away with his money.

    I don’t know about that.  For decades HK has been the gold standard in free market capitalism.  It disproved all those who said you needed lots of factories to have a strong economy.  It disproved all those who said you needed trade tariffs to protect the people from imports.  It disproved all those who said that you needed land and abundant raw material resources to be a global economic leader.  It disproved all those who said that you needed high taxes to keep the people heathy, well fed and educated.

    While it has its faults, as all great cities do, HK has been a shining example of how to do many things right.

    Until recently...

    Yeah, the market is too under-regulated. I agree with what maestro64 said:
    tzm41 said:
    The Hong Kong legislature is the prime example of putting profits over values. They are almost useless for passing laws and regulations to protect the mass from the oligarchs, who control land supply, housing price, and profit distribution... Like Li Ka-shing basically robbed the dream out of all Hong Kongers, and now he moved away with his money.
    I personally believe what we are seeing in Hong Kong is more about what you pointed out than anything else. HK has business owners and working class two distinctly different classes of people. Keep in mind HK was a trading port for a long time, things were made in mainland china and move through HK to points world wide. Those who managed the trade made all the profits, Over many year HK imported people from all over the world to serve those who drive the trade business and they are now seeing they have no future and that future will be far worse once mainland China rolls around the border in 30 yrs. Those with money when this happen will be fine and everyone else will loose.
    The result of this extreme free market capitalism, which already failed in the US in the 1930s, led HK to this tangled state. The people who actually got rich in the past four decades are the those who were in control of either the trading/international financial services or real estates. HK's income disparity is crazily high with a Gini index much higher than us, and I consider our income disparity to be pretty bad already. And taking an integral of this, wealth disparity is almost unimaginable.

    Yes, HK thrived for a couple decades, seemingly defying the conceptions you pointed out. And the aforementioned extreme free market capitalism seemed to have worked, despite the huge socioeconomic gap it created. But it did so mainly by serving as the major commercial hub between mainland China and surrounding southeast Asian regions, and the West. After China joined the WTO, opened up its markets etc, HK's unique advantage has been in slow but steady descent.
  • Reply 37 of 65
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,487moderator
    Let’s see...  I could stay home, or if I need to go to work I could reroute or back away if I start to come upon an area where protests are going on.  Or could even listen to the radio or TV to discern where trouble is brewing.  So as a citizen I have options.

    but a police officer needs to do his job, which will often take him/her directly to where trouble exists.

    hmm, I guess Tim & Co made the right decision taking down an app that citizens don’t actually need but that could be used to target police.   Seems a no-brained to me.   
    GeorgeBMaccincymac
  • Reply 38 of 65
    chaickachaicka Posts: 250member
    Obviously, this Hong Kong's IT legislator has a political agenda. Anyone with strong IT background can tell that the app is tilted one-side - 'only identify police spots'. Why not rename and rebuild the app towards 'Protest/Riot Monitoring' on a few key fundamental functional changes:
    • allow crowd-source to identify all areas of protest/riot even if there is no police presence
    • strictly option-based inputs/selections which are neutral (not siding police nor the protestors/rioters)
    • remove ability to input custom-text (e.g. currently, there are custom inputs that states number of patrol vans, number of police officers, type of gears the police are carrying, etc
    The way the app currently functions is obviously siding with protestors/rioters and not truly with intention to help non-participating people to avoid areas of protest/riot since it only use to spot police. There are protest/riot going on without police arriving at scene but not shown on the app's map.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 39 of 65
    ivanhivanh Posts: 597member
    Tim Cook should ban Apple iMessage, for the same reason he banned HKMap.live. After all, WeChat, WhatsApp, Facebook Personal Messages, Viber, Telegram can do things the same.  Wait a minute! All apps from the Apple App Stores (all countries) in used by all protesters are using Apple iPhones. Ban iPhones.
  • Reply 40 of 65
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    maestro64 said:
    k2kw said:
    As long as Most phones and computers are made in China the communistic government will be able to choke Cook’s chain.   Hopefully the trade war by Trump has made Cook Realize Apple needs to move lots of Manufacturing and assembly out of China to India and other Democratic countries.    Ideally Trump would pull us out of WTO.

    No on stood up for the Union works back in the 70's through the 90's when they said Buy American, no people turned their head and buy the cheap stuff from outside the use and these same people who were saying buy American are he same people who voted for Trump.
    No, we did.   We tried the same protectionist tariffs Trump is touting today.   It didn't work then.  It's not working now.  Our steel and auto industries were crushed by companies with better management and better, cheaper, well educated workers making better products cheaper.  

    Before the U.S. can again restore its place as an industrial powerhouse it will have to come to grips with the fact it can't be done with poorly run, obsolete factories paying lazy workers exorbitant wages along with Cadillac health and pension benefits.  In our post-war bravado we thought we were indestructible and irreplaceable.  It was a nice delusion while it lasted -- and its demise was accompanied by the same cries of "ip theft" and such that we hear today.

    A big part of it is / was the replacement of hardnosed entrepreneurs like Ford and Carnegie with professional managers more interested in quarterly profits and owned by people more interested in stock buybacks than growing the business.   The only U.S. industry doing well globally today is our tech industry -- which was built by that same level hardnosed entrepreneur -- but, China is filled with them.  People like Huawei's Ren.  Neither chest thumping nor crying, knashing of teeth and protectionist tariffs will change that.

    To restore our place as an industrial power we will need to:
    -- Invest in infrastructure that supports industry -- and that includes well educated workers.
    -- Promote entrepreneurship and the small & medium sized businesses they run
    -- Develop a hungry, well educated workforce capable of competing with Chinese and Mexican workers at every level.

    The free ride is over.  We just haven't realized it yet.
    cincymac
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