Steve J would be furious about this mess, and heads would roll.
There were much, much larger messes under SJ. Stop dragging him out of the grave in order to attack Apple and pretend everything was rosy under his watch. It's a tired, dishonest, and frankly, despicable tactic. This lame-ass trolling should be insta-banned.
The percentage of Mac users that use eGPUs is no doubt TINY. If I was relying on one, I'd sure as hell wait a while before upgrading my OS knowing I'm in a minority, at least until I'm 100% sure everything is compatible. Anything else would be irresponsible, and my OWN fault.
Exactly. Anyone in production environments that relies on third party external devices has to take precautions just as you say. I recall having a lot of equipment like digital tape backup drives and non-linear video editing cards from Matrox and Radius and had to create three shows a week for ESPN on a deadline. You simply do not try to fix what wasn't broken in such environments. That said I always had test rigs that were not in the production flow testing every update to the Mac OS, drivers etc. and worked closely with companies like Radius and Matrox to get beta drivers as upgrading was essential at some point but never, ever on live production equipment.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
You’re very lucky if that’s your experience. Many others, me included, have had a lot of difficulty getting an eGPU working on a Mac running Windows in Bootcamp. The Bootcamp firmware cannot deal with it.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
I didn’t know eGPUs aren’t supported natively by Windows 10 and Bootcamp. Thanks for that.
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
Now that Apple has priced me OUT of their Mac Pro market (as well pricing out many other hobbyists and small businesses), I am forced to forget gaming because none of the anorexic Macs have the thermal tolerances and GPUs for really heavy continuous loads.
I hate PC hardware and the voodoo of building and supporting PCs & Windows. I’ll tolerate windows on a Mac, but not Windows on a PC. I will not build a PC again. I swore off that nightmare (and please, PC fans, don’t tell me “you’re doing it wrong” because that’s part of the voodoo you believe).
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
You’re very lucky if that’s your experience. Many others, me included, have had a lot of difficulty getting an eGPU working on a Mac running Windows in Bootcamp. The Bootcamp firmware cannot deal with it.
That's not "my experience". That's a fact. Go to http://egpu.io and you'll see that the formal instructions for any AMD card are the same. Plug it in the chassis, start the Mac or hotplug in the device and once it appears in Windows 10 DM, then simply install the new catalysts. There's nothing about "bootcamp firmware". Windows has issues with the newest point release updates causing issues, so simply roll back to 1903 .295 to solve the problem.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
I didn’t know eGPUs aren’t supported natively by Windows 10 and Bootcamp. Thanks for that.
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
Now that Apple has priced me OUT of their Mac Pro market (as well pricing out many other hobbyists and small businesses), I am forced to forget gaming because none of the anorexic Macs have the thermal tolerances and GPUs for really heavy continuous loads.
I hate PC hardware and the voodoo of building and supporting PCs & Windows. I’ll tolerate windows on a Mac, but not Windows on a PC. I will not build a PC again. I swore off that nightmare (and please, PC fans, don’t tell me “you’re doing it wrong” because that’s part of the voodoo you believe).
Windows totally supports egpus. All you need is to hot plug it and then install the drivers.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
I didn’t know eGPUs aren’t supported natively by Windows 10 and Bootcamp. Thanks for that.
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
Now that Apple has priced me OUT of their Mac Pro market (as well pricing out many other hobbyists and small businesses), I am forced to forget gaming because none of the anorexic Macs have the thermal tolerances and GPUs for really heavy continuous loads.
I hate PC hardware and the voodoo of building and supporting PCs & Windows. I’ll tolerate windows on a Mac, but not Windows on a PC. I will not build a PC again. I swore off that nightmare (and please, PC fans, don’t tell me “you’re doing it wrong” because that’s part of the voodoo you believe).
Windows totally supports egpus. All you need is to hot plug it and then install the drivers.
That's true on the 2018 and 2019 MBP lineup. Some older machines have resource allocation issues that need to be worked around.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
Maybe Apple needs to update their documentation then:
"macOS High Sierra 10.13.4 and later don't support eGPUs in Windows using Boot Camp"
And I've seen myriad threads in places about how certain Macs with dGPUs have issues that you have to work around, blah blah... Honestly I wasn't paying close attention as I don't intend to install Boot Camp, but seemed like it was a PITA for many configurations out there (and easier on some, like the mini without a dGPU for example). I yield to those with direct experience with this.
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
You have literally posted about how poor you are so many times it's burned into my brain. That, and complained about the prices of everything from iPhones to software to everything else, so forgive me if I didn't realize you were actually in the market for a "proper workstation Mac".
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
You’re very lucky if that’s your experience. Many others, me included, have had a lot of difficulty getting an eGPU working on a Mac running Windows in Bootcamp. The Bootcamp firmware cannot deal with it.
That's not "my experience". That's a fact. Go to http://egpu.io and you'll see that the formal instructions for any AMD card are the same. Plug it in the chassis, start the Mac or hotplug in the device and once it appears in Windows 10 DM, then simply install the new catalysts. There's nothing about "bootcamp firmware". Windows has issues with the newest point release updates causing issues, so simply roll back to 1903 .295 to solve the problem.
When booting into an operating system that is not Mac OS, the Mac firmware tends to deactivate the internal GPU if there’s another GPU present. For example, the 15″ MacBook Pro boots into Boot Camp with only the Radeon Pro dGPU activated. Only having an Intel iGPU, the 13″ MacBook Pro sometimes hangs at the Windows bootup process if an eGPU is connected. Similarly the Radeon dGPU in MacBook Pro or iMac would be deactivated as well when there’s a connected eGPU at boot. Obvious symptoms is a stuck Windows logo during boot that flickers. If you have an external monitor connected, you may be able to see Windows Desktop on it (given proper drivers for eGPU was installed). To remedy this hurdle we rely on apple_set_os.efi to trick the Mac into believing it’s booting into macOS. This boot loader file can be stored on either a USB drive or in the ESP partition of the Mac’s internal drive through the use of rEFInd boot manager.
We strongly recommend using Goalque‘s automate-eGPU EFI, a boot loader that conveniently integrates apple_set_os.efi file. He provided clear instructions on creating a USB thumb drive so that the internal drive stays intact. It’s possible to create a small FAT partition on the internal drive as well if you prefer not to attached an external drive for the boot loader. rEFInd is another alternative for the need to use an external USB drive. Once the iGPU is active in Windows, we want to make sure it has the latest Intel graphics drivers. If the iGPU shows up in Device Manager as “Microsoft Basic Display Adapter,” you may need to install the Intel graphics drivers manually.
Clearly your experience is not the only experience.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
I didn’t know eGPUs aren’t supported natively by Windows 10 and Bootcamp. Thanks for that.
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
Now that Apple has priced me OUT of their Mac Pro market (as well pricing out many other hobbyists and small businesses), I am forced to forget gaming because none of the anorexic Macs have the thermal tolerances and GPUs for really heavy continuous loads.
I hate PC hardware and the voodoo of building and supporting PCs & Windows. I’ll tolerate windows on a Mac, but not Windows on a PC. I will not build a PC again. I swore off that nightmare (and please, PC fans, don’t tell me “you’re doing it wrong” because that’s part of the voodoo you believe).
Windows totally supports egpus. All you need is to hot plug it and then install the drivers.
That's true on the 2018 and 2019 MBP lineup. Some older machines have resource allocation issues that need to be worked around.
This is misleading. My 2016 MacBook Pro worked the same as my 2018 Mac Mini. Both used bootcamp. Both had a plug-n-play experience with an external gpu carriage and both were finished by catalyst installation.
if your computer doesn't have TB3, then yes, you may have issues but it's not because of "Windows", it's because the Mac hardware is old and new carriages aren't designed with TB1 or 2 in mind.
I want to stress that the experience of a Mac user also has 0 to do with Windows support, since Razer, Alienware and FN sell egpu systems for sale with their Windows laptops and those work exactly as they do for me. Plug-n-play.
In fact, Razer sells its very, very commonly used Razer Core X for use with its own laptops...not Macs. The fact that it works on Macs is just gravy.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
Maybe Apple needs to update their documentation then:
"macOS High Sierra 10.13.4 and later don't support eGPUs in Windows using Boot Camp"
And I've seen myriad threads in places about how certain Macs with dGPUs have issues that you have to work around, blah blah... Honestly I wasn't paying close attention as I don't intend to install Boot Camp, but seemed like it was a PITA for many configurations out there (and easier on some, like the mini without a dGPU for example). I yield to those with direct experience with this.
"They", as in Apple don't support it. Quoting that means nothing. Apple doesn't support it...because they don't *have* to. Windows/Microsoft supports egpus in Windows 10. All that blurb means is that they don't write code for Bootcamp to load an egpu device. And they don't have to. XConnect has been present on Windows for over a year. AMD takes care of that end and the carriage is autodetected by Windows universal drivers in Windows 10.
Plus that also means you can't call AppleCare about Windows egpu solutions via Bootcamp. Duh. We all know that. But it's a CYA on their part. Windows handles egpus in Bootcamp.
Bootcamp egpu is plug and play assuming 3 things:
1. Your Mac has Thunderbolt 3. Thunderbolt 2 and 1 require a ton of kext mods and whatnot. I've done it with a 2013 iMac I have at home that has TB1. It works but it's a pain and it takes a ton of jumping through hoops. But that's a computer that is over 5 years YEARS OLD. So I expect to have issues with that computer.
2. You use a clean, 18xx/1903 installation of Windows 10. No, not Windows 7. Windows 8. Windows 8.1. Windows XP. It has to be a newer build of Windows. You wouldn't try to install an egpu with macOS Jaguar. The same issue applies here.
3. You need to install clean, updated drivers and OS updates. That means removing any old ones you may have. Not installing over drivers. You also have to make sure that if you're running AMD's drivers, that you install the entire software suite so that it can start the Xconnect process. Also make sure your 1903 Windows build is updated to .295 (not .3/.329.359/.388/.418 because those have issues).
That's it. That's all you need. Yes, there will always be people that have issues. Because they fail to have one of the aforementioned requirements above. Maybe they have an old Mac mini. Or a laptop from Steve's time. Maybe they have a copy of Windows 7 or their Windows 10 install hasn't been updated since Hoover's office. Maybe they've installed AMD drivers over nVidia drivers over AMD drivers and everything is crufted up. Maybe they never bothered to install the new drivers at all. There are a lot of issues that can lead to people having problems. But whether you're running Bootcamp or flat Windows, all you need to do with a modern TB3 enabled system, an updated copy of Windows and fresh driver foundation is to booth the machine, plug in the egpu, see it autodetect in DM and then simply install the drivers. The end.
As for you not installing Bootcamp...I have. Over a dozen times. In fact my current main system is a Mac Mini 2018...with a Radeon VII egpu. And it worked as I said it did. My previous installation was a Macbook Pro 2016 15". Again, it worked exactly the same way.
I get some of you don't like Windows. It certainly has flaws and issues. (1903 post .300...grrr) but acting like it doesn't do something when it clearly does...is misleading and FUD.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
You’re very lucky if that’s your experience. Many others, me included, have had a lot of difficulty getting an eGPU working on a Mac running Windows in Bootcamp. The Bootcamp firmware cannot deal with it.
That's not "my experience". That's a fact. Go to http://egpu.io and you'll see that the formal instructions for any AMD card are the same. Plug it in the chassis, start the Mac or hotplug in the device and once it appears in Windows 10 DM, then simply install the new catalysts. There's nothing about "bootcamp firmware". Windows has issues with the newest point release updates causing issues, so simply roll back to 1903 .295 to solve the problem.
When booting into an operating system that is not Mac OS, the Mac firmware tends to deactivate the internal GPU if there’s another GPU present. For example, the 15″ MacBook Pro boots into Boot Camp with only the Radeon Pro dGPU activated. Only having an Intel iGPU, the 13″ MacBook Pro sometimes hangs at the Windows bootup process if an eGPU is connected. Similarly the Radeon dGPU in MacBook Pro or iMac would be deactivated as well when there’s a connected eGPU at boot. Obvious symptoms is a stuck Windows logo during boot that flickers. If you have an external monitor connected, you may be able to see Windows Desktop on it (given proper drivers for eGPU was installed). To remedy this hurdle we rely on apple_set_os.efi to trick the Mac into believing it’s booting into macOS. This boot loader file can be stored on either a USB drive or in the ESP partition of the Mac’s internal drive through the use of rEFInd boot manager.
We strongly recommend using Goalque‘s automate-eGPU EFI, a boot loader that conveniently integrates apple_set_os.efi file. He provided clear instructions on creating a USB thumb drive so that the internal drive stays intact. It’s possible to create a small FAT partition on the internal drive as well if you prefer not to attached an external drive for the boot loader. rEFInd is another alternative for the need to use an external USB drive. Once the iGPU is active in Windows, we want to make sure it has the latest Intel graphics drivers. If the iGPU shows up in Device Manager as “Microsoft Basic Display Adapter,” you may need to install the Intel graphics drivers manually.
Clearly your experience is not the only experience.
Clearly not. Picking the worst possible situation doesn't prove anything. Here're the same instructions off their forum for 90% of their audience:
So maybe instead of complaining about stuff, you should accept that the vast, overwhelming majority have zero to no issues. Again, running an older Mac, older/unupdated Windows or failing to install drivers may cause problems, sure. And yes, sometimes people have unrealistic expecations. They may have problems because they want their igpu to operate on full-moon Tuesdays but not on second-Aquarius Wednesdays and want the dgpu to bring them tea and biscuits but only after 4 PM. But that kind of kit building is always going to require work.
That said, if you have a modern Mac (2016 or better) and you have a new copy of Windows on Bootcamp. And it's updated to 1903/.295 and you install the drivers, you WILL have success on Bootcamp. And posting exceptionalities is, again, just FUD.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
I didn’t know eGPUs aren’t supported natively by Windows 10 and Bootcamp. Thanks for that.
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
Now that Apple has priced me OUT of their Mac Pro market (as well pricing out many other hobbyists and small businesses), I am forced to forget gaming because none of the anorexic Macs have the thermal tolerances and GPUs for really heavy continuous loads.
I hate PC hardware and the voodoo of building and supporting PCs & Windows. I’ll tolerate windows on a Mac, but not Windows on a PC. I will not build a PC again. I swore off that nightmare (and please, PC fans, don’t tell me “you’re doing it wrong” because that’s part of the voodoo you believe).
Windows totally supports egpus. All you need is to hot plug it and then install the drivers.
That's true on the 2018 and 2019 MBP lineup. Some older machines have resource allocation issues that need to be worked around.
This is misleading. My 2016 MacBook Pro worked the same as my 2018 Mac Mini. Both used bootcamp. Both had a plug-n-play experience with an external gpu carriage and both were finished by catalyst installation.
if your computer doesn't have TB3, then yes, you may have issues but it's not because of "Windows", it's because the Mac hardware is old and new carriages aren't designed with TB1 or 2 in mind.
I want to stress that the experience of a Mac user also has 0 to do with Windows support, since Razer, Alienware and FN sell egpu systems for sale with their Windows laptops and those work exactly as they do for me. Plug-n-play.
In fact, Razer sells its very, very commonly used Razer Core X for use with its own laptops...not Macs. The fact that it works on Macs is just gravy.
It most certainly is not misleading. Dive through the eGPU.io forums, since you've linked to them already. There are PCI-E channel allocation issues in Windows on some 13-inch MBP models that need workarounds. I don't even know where you're going with TB1 and TB2, because that's obvious.
If you have a 15-inch 2016 and the Mac mini, you're fine, like you said and seem to be experiencing. But, don't dismiss issues because you aren't experiencing them.
Again, it's great that you've had a plug and play experience. That's how it's supposed to work. That's how it's generally been for me. But, it isn't universally great, and there are fingers to be pointed at Apple and Microsoft as to why.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
I didn’t know eGPUs aren’t supported natively by Windows 10 and Bootcamp. Thanks for that.
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
Now that Apple has priced me OUT of their Mac Pro market (as well pricing out many other hobbyists and small businesses), I am forced to forget gaming because none of the anorexic Macs have the thermal tolerances and GPUs for really heavy continuous loads.
I hate PC hardware and the voodoo of building and supporting PCs & Windows. I’ll tolerate windows on a Mac, but not Windows on a PC. I will not build a PC again. I swore off that nightmare (and please, PC fans, don’t tell me “you’re doing it wrong” because that’s part of the voodoo you believe).
Windows totally supports egpus. All you need is to hot plug it and then install the drivers.
That's true on the 2018 and 2019 MBP lineup. Some older machines have resource allocation issues that need to be worked around.
This is misleading. My 2016 MacBook Pro worked the same as my 2018 Mac Mini. Both used bootcamp. Both had a plug-n-play experience with an external gpu carriage and both were finished by catalyst installation.
if your computer doesn't have TB3, then yes, you may have issues but it's not because of "Windows", it's because the Mac hardware is old and new carriages aren't designed with TB1 or 2 in mind.
I want to stress that the experience of a Mac user also has 0 to do with Windows support, since Razer, Alienware and FN sell egpu systems for sale with their Windows laptops and those work exactly as they do for me. Plug-n-play.
In fact, Razer sells its very, very commonly used Razer Core X for use with its own laptops...not Macs. The fact that it works on Macs is just gravy.
It most certainly is not misleading. Dive through the eGPU.io forums. There are PCI-E allocation issues in Windows on some 13-inch MBP models that need workarounds. I don't even know where you're going with TB1 and TB2, because that's obvious.
If you have a 15-inch 2016 and the Mac mini, you're fine. But, don't dismiss issues because you aren't experiencing them.
You're picking rare examples and blanketing the entire issue. The point is you can grab a TB3 enabled system, with Windows 10 (1903) and if you plug in an egpu it WILL autodetect. That's not "me". That's a fact. I'm not lucky, nor a genius. I didn't code fresh drivers myself.
Posting examples of 2015 hardware or strange OS issues isn't proof that Windows/bootcamp doesn't support egpus. Firstly, bootcamp isn't even a real egpu-blocking thing. Bootcamp is just an efi config bootloader that lets you run Windows while employing pre-supplied Windows drivers that are provided by Apple. You don't even need to use the Bootcamp drivers if you don't want. In fact, you really should do your homework and swap out newer drivers if possible because usually you can find better performance.
My point with all this is when people say "Bootcamp doesn't support egpus"...what they mean to say is "Windows doesn't support egpus" because Bootcamp has nothing to do with the egpu detection. That's the Windows universal driver support that does it. Apple has 0 to do with that. They may supply a Windows AMD driver for you to use but the reality is that it wouldn't detect even if it was a default Windows-generated driver. The device will be detected by wuds FIRST and then once the hardware is identified, an AMD driver would take hold.
So this notion that "Bootcamp doesn't support egpus" is nonsense. Apple ships an AMD driver in bootcamp. it's an older driver. You shouldn't use it. Instead, you should just let Windows handle the device discovery and install a new AMD driver. The end.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
I didn’t know eGPUs aren’t supported natively by Windows 10 and Bootcamp. Thanks for that.
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
Now that Apple has priced me OUT of their Mac Pro market (as well pricing out many other hobbyists and small businesses), I am forced to forget gaming because none of the anorexic Macs have the thermal tolerances and GPUs for really heavy continuous loads.
I hate PC hardware and the voodoo of building and supporting PCs & Windows. I’ll tolerate windows on a Mac, but not Windows on a PC. I will not build a PC again. I swore off that nightmare (and please, PC fans, don’t tell me “you’re doing it wrong” because that’s part of the voodoo you believe).
Windows totally supports egpus. All you need is to hot plug it and then install the drivers.
That's true on the 2018 and 2019 MBP lineup. Some older machines have resource allocation issues that need to be worked around.
This is misleading. My 2016 MacBook Pro worked the same as my 2018 Mac Mini. Both used bootcamp. Both had a plug-n-play experience with an external gpu carriage and both were finished by catalyst installation.
if your computer doesn't have TB3, then yes, you may have issues but it's not because of "Windows", it's because the Mac hardware is old and new carriages aren't designed with TB1 or 2 in mind.
I want to stress that the experience of a Mac user also has 0 to do with Windows support, since Razer, Alienware and FN sell egpu systems for sale with their Windows laptops and those work exactly as they do for me. Plug-n-play.
In fact, Razer sells its very, very commonly used Razer Core X for use with its own laptops...not Macs. The fact that it works on Macs is just gravy.
It most certainly is not misleading. Dive through the eGPU.io forums. There are PCI-E allocation issues in Windows on some 13-inch MBP models that need workarounds. I don't even know where you're going with TB1 and TB2, because that's obvious.
If you have a 15-inch 2016 and the Mac mini, you're fine. But, don't dismiss issues because you aren't experiencing them.
You're picking rare examples and blanketing the entire issue. The point is you can grab a TB3 enabled system, with Windows 10 (1903) and if you plug in an egpu it WILL autodetect. That's not "me". That's a fact. I'm not lucky, nor a genius. I didn't code fresh drivers myself.
Posting examples of 2015 hardware or strange OS issues isn't proof that Windows/bootcamp doesn't support egpus. Firstly, bootcamp isn't even a real egpu-blocking thing. Bootcamp is just an efi config bootloader that lets you run Windows while employing pre-supplied Windows drivers that are provided by Apple. You don't even need to use the Bootcamp drivers if you don't want. In fact, you really should do your homework and swap out newer drivers if possible because usually you can find better performance.
My point with all this is when people say "Bootcamp doesn't support egpus"...what they mean to say is "Windows doesn't support egpus" because Bootcamp has nothing to do with the egpu detection. That's the Windows universal driver support that does it. Apple has 0 to do with that. They may supply a Windows AMD driver for you to use but the reality is that it wouldn't detect even if it was a default Windows-generated driver. The device will be detected by wuds FIRST and then once the hardware is identified, an AMD driver would take hold.
So this notion that "Bootcamp doesn't support egpus" is nonsense. Apple ships an AMD driver in bootcamp. it's an older driver. You shouldn't use it. Instead, you should just let Windows handle the device discovery and install a new AMD driver. The end.
Who posted 2015 hardware? Who posted strange OS issues? Two full years of 13-inch MacBook Pros with function keys, and two full years of the i5 13-inch MBP with the Touch Bar have problems with Boot Camp eGPUs in Windows because of PCI-E channel assignments and isolations in hardware. That's not rare by any stretch of the imagination, and it isn't anything Windows discovery can do anything about.
You're conflating issues, and who you're talking to. I'm not sure why you're doubling down on it. There are problems in Catalina with the Polaris drivers, most likely. There are problems in Windows with eGPUs, like you said yourself and they've been aggravated by the last two Windows updates. The technology is nice, but it isn't perfect.
No one said it's perfect. But there have been people in this very thread that have expressed interest at the option and been dissuaded by people that say it's not "supported".
Is that so? It's not supported? So if you buy a new Mac today or have a recent Mac, are your chances of getting an egpu to work MORE or LESS likely?
Stop hedging and just put your pebble in one pile. Does it work for most people, or not?
No one said it's perfect. But there have been people in this very thread that have expressed interest at the option and been dissuaded by people that say it's not "supported".
Is that so? It's not supported? So if you buy a new Mac today or have a recent Mac, are your chances of getting an egpu to work MORE or LESS likely?
Stop hedging and just put your pebble in one pile. Does it work for most people, or not?
Don't oversimplify it, because none of us are third-graders. This isn't a simple yes or no, and you know it. A "pebble in one pile" serves nobody, because nothing is ever that simple.
It works for everybody in Windows with a 15-inch MacBook Pro. It works for everybody in Windows with a Mac mini. It works for almost nobody with a 2016 or 2017 13-inch MacBook Pro in Windows without workarounds that may not work, and, like you said, this is dependent on which Windows 10 update you're on. Your own links from egpu.io say this, explicitly.
And, eGPU in Boot Camp is absolutely not supported by Apple regardless if it works or not which is what those posters were saying. It works, but Apple doesn't support it at all.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
You’re very lucky if that’s your experience. Many others, me included, have had a lot of difficulty getting an eGPU working on a Mac running Windows in Bootcamp. The Bootcamp firmware cannot deal with it.
That's not "my experience". That's a fact. Go to http://egpu.io and you'll see that the formal instructions for any AMD card are the same. Plug it in the chassis, start the Mac or hotplug in the device and once it appears in Windows 10 DM, then simply install the new catalysts. There's nothing about "bootcamp firmware". Windows has issues with the newest point release updates causing issues, so simply roll back to 1903 .295 to solve the problem.
When booting into an operating system that is not Mac OS, the Mac firmware tends to deactivate the internal GPU if there’s another GPU present. For example, the 15″ MacBook Pro boots into Boot Camp with only the Radeon Pro dGPU activated. Only having an Intel iGPU, the 13″ MacBook Pro sometimes hangs at the Windows bootup process if an eGPU is connected. Similarly the Radeon dGPU in MacBook Pro or iMac would be deactivated as well when there’s a connected eGPU at boot. Obvious symptoms is a stuck Windows logo during boot that flickers. If you have an external monitor connected, you may be able to see Windows Desktop on it (given proper drivers for eGPU was installed). To remedy this hurdle we rely on apple_set_os.efi to trick the Mac into believing it’s booting into macOS. This boot loader file can be stored on either a USB drive or in the ESP partition of the Mac’s internal drive through the use of rEFInd boot manager.
We strongly recommend using Goalque‘s automate-eGPU EFI, a boot loader that conveniently integrates apple_set_os.efi file. He provided clear instructions on creating a USB thumb drive so that the internal drive stays intact. It’s possible to create a small FAT partition on the internal drive as well if you prefer not to attached an external drive for the boot loader. rEFInd is another alternative for the need to use an external USB drive. Once the iGPU is active in Windows, we want to make sure it has the latest Intel graphics drivers. If the iGPU shows up in Device Manager as “Microsoft Basic Display Adapter,” you may need to install the Intel graphics drivers manually.
Clearly your experience is not the only experience.
Clearly not. Picking the worst possible situation doesn't prove anything. Here're the same instructions off their forum for 90% of their audience:
So maybe instead of complaining about stuff, you should accept that the vast, overwhelming majority have zero to no issues. Again, running an older Mac, older/unupdated Windows or failing to install drivers may cause problems, sure. And yes, sometimes people have unrealistic expecations. They may have problems because they want their igpu to operate on full-moon Tuesdays but not on second-Aquarius Wednesdays and want the dgpu to bring them tea and biscuits but only after 4 PM. But that kind of kit building is always going to require work.
That said, if you have a modern Mac (2016 or better) and you have a new copy of Windows on Bootcamp. And it's updated to 1903/.295 and you install the drivers, you WILL have success on Bootcamp. And posting exceptionalities is, again, just FUD.
I have literally posted their main setup guide, which in the very first paragraph states that the process can be "a total nightmare". I've tried it with a 2019 MacBook Air and a Radeon Vega 56 in a Razer Core X on a fresh Windows 10 install downloaded straight from Microsoft's website just a couple weeks ago (not at all an unusual setup), and it did not go at all smoothly at all. You've claimed that it's as easy as plug and play, and up until now have not made any allowance for other experiences, I quote 'That's not "my experience". That's a fact'. I'm glad that you didn't have any issues, but you're talking absolute crap dude.
No one said it's perfect. But there have been people in this very thread that have expressed interest at the option and been dissuaded by people that say it's not "supported".
Is that so? It's not supported? So if you buy a new Mac today or have a recent Mac, are your chances of getting an egpu to work MORE or LESS likely?
Stop hedging and just put your pebble in one pile. Does it work for most people, or not?
Don't oversimplify it, because none of us are third-graders. This isn't a simple yes or no, and you know it. A "pebble in one pile" serves nobody, because nothing is ever that simple.
It works for everybody in Windows with a 15-inch MacBook Pro. It works for everybody in Windows with a Mac mini. It works for almost nobody with a 2016 or 2017 13-inch MacBook Pro in Windows without workarounds that may not work, and, like you said, this is dependent on which Windows 10 update you're on. Your own links from egpu.io say this, explicitly.
And, eGPU in Boot Camp is absolutely not supported by Apple regardless if it works or not which is what those posters were saying. It works, but Apple doesn't support it at all.
I’ve been wondering about the added complexity of putting the GPU externally to the machine, and wondering if an eGPU could be the workaround for the pathetic thermals of these tiny Apple computers and the desire to do gaming on them (obviously with Windows)...
... and indeed, it all seems like a PITA. It seems that these little boxes are still not the right choice for heavy GPU usage. If you want a full-size computer from Apple, you now get to fork over twice the cost of the already too expensive 2013 Mac Pro. What’s that? If we can’t afford a workhorse Apple computer, that computer isn’t for us? Fine. Show me another Mac that is appropriate. Needs an eGPU... which is currently hackish and unreliable, because Apple seem not to be testing OS features before releasing their latest OS to the public... again.
This is progress at Apple? If they’re going to go this route (using an eGPU add-on as a justification for their anorexic machines being the only semi-affordable offerings), they really must get this eGPU stuff to be simple and reliable. It needs to just work.
Apple has had a glaring disinterest in gaming, and now they want people to pay for a game subscription service. Wait. What? Is there anything in that subscription that even remotely compares to PC gaming? I assume not (?), but I haven’t looked (I have ZERO interest in subscription services). Heavy GPU gaming demands more than what Apple’s anorexic machines can offer, and these eGPUs don’t seem to be a simple solution. I can only assume the games on offer will never be up to par with the offerings on PC. Is that a sustainable model for a gaming subscription?
Boot Camp doesn't even support eGPUs in Windows natively, you have to do a bunch of stuff to get that working. Not that it matters, because you weren't really considering buying a new Mac anyway.
Just because there are some bugs going on with Catalina and certain hardware doesn't mean this is an overall problem with eGPUs on the Mac in general.
This isn't true. eGPU is for the most part natively supported in Windows. You simply plug it in, it autodetects in Device Manager as a generic display device and then you can install drivers off the manufacturer's website. The card is then natively supported (and detected) in Windows, either as plug and play or just load from boot.
You’re very lucky if that’s your experience. Many others, me included, have had a lot of difficulty getting an eGPU working on a Mac running Windows in Bootcamp. The Bootcamp firmware cannot deal with it.
That's not "my experience". That's a fact. Go to http://egpu.io and you'll see that the formal instructions for any AMD card are the same. Plug it in the chassis, start the Mac or hotplug in the device and once it appears in Windows 10 DM, then simply install the new catalysts. There's nothing about "bootcamp firmware". Windows has issues with the newest point release updates causing issues, so simply roll back to 1903 .295 to solve the problem.
When booting into an operating system that is not Mac OS, the Mac firmware tends to deactivate the internal GPU if there’s another GPU present. For example, the 15″ MacBook Pro boots into Boot Camp with only the Radeon Pro dGPU activated. Only having an Intel iGPU, the 13″ MacBook Pro sometimes hangs at the Windows bootup process if an eGPU is connected. Similarly the Radeon dGPU in MacBook Pro or iMac would be deactivated as well when there’s a connected eGPU at boot. Obvious symptoms is a stuck Windows logo during boot that flickers. If you have an external monitor connected, you may be able to see Windows Desktop on it (given proper drivers for eGPU was installed). To remedy this hurdle we rely on apple_set_os.efi to trick the Mac into believing it’s booting into macOS. This boot loader file can be stored on either a USB drive or in the ESP partition of the Mac’s internal drive through the use of rEFInd boot manager.
We strongly recommend using Goalque‘s automate-eGPU EFI, a boot loader that conveniently integrates apple_set_os.efi file. He provided clear instructions on creating a USB thumb drive so that the internal drive stays intact. It’s possible to create a small FAT partition on the internal drive as well if you prefer not to attached an external drive for the boot loader. rEFInd is another alternative for the need to use an external USB drive. Once the iGPU is active in Windows, we want to make sure it has the latest Intel graphics drivers. If the iGPU shows up in Device Manager as “Microsoft Basic Display Adapter,” you may need to install the Intel graphics drivers manually.
Clearly your experience is not the only experience.
Clearly not. Picking the worst possible situation doesn't prove anything. Here're the same instructions off their forum for 90% of their audience:
So maybe instead of complaining about stuff, you should accept that the vast, overwhelming majority have zero to no issues. Again, running an older Mac, older/unupdated Windows or failing to install drivers may cause problems, sure. And yes, sometimes people have unrealistic expecations. They may have problems because they want their igpu to operate on full-moon Tuesdays but not on second-Aquarius Wednesdays and want the dgpu to bring them tea and biscuits but only after 4 PM. But that kind of kit building is always going to require work.
That said, if you have a modern Mac (2016 or better) and you have a new copy of Windows on Bootcamp. And it's updated to 1903/.295 and you install the drivers, you WILL have success on Bootcamp. And posting exceptionalities is, again, just FUD.
I have literally posted their main setup guide, which in the very first paragraph states that the process can be "a total nightmare". I've tried it with a 2019 MacBook Air and a Radeon Vega 56 in a Razer Core X on a fresh Windows 10 install downloaded straight from Microsoft's website just a couple weeks ago (not at all an unusual setup), and it did not go at all smoothly at all. You've claimed that it's as easy as plug and play, and up until now have not made any allowance for other experiences, I quote 'That's not "my experience". That's a fact'. I'm glad that you didn't have any issues, but you're talking absolute crap dude.
Comments
YES, I HAVE been planning to buy a new Mac! Who are you to tell me what I was or was not planning?? I have been waiting for almost ten years for a proper workstation Mac!! I wanted Mac OS for everything but gaming, and boot camp for Windows gaming.
Now that Apple has priced me OUT of their Mac Pro market (as well pricing out many other hobbyists and small businesses), I am forced to forget gaming because none of the anorexic Macs have the thermal tolerances and GPUs for really heavy continuous loads.
I hate PC hardware and the voodoo of building and supporting PCs & Windows. I’ll tolerate windows on a Mac, but not Windows on a PC. I will not build a PC again. I swore off that nightmare (and please, PC fans, don’t tell me “you’re doing it wrong” because that’s part of the voodoo you believe).
Windows totally supports egpus. All you need is to hot plug it and then install the drivers.
"macOS High Sierra 10.13.4 and later don't support eGPUs in Windows using Boot Camp"
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208544
Even this: https://egpu.io/boot-camp-egpu-setup-guide/ says:
"Boot Camp eGPU setup on a Mac can be plug-and-play for some and a total nightmare for others."
And I've seen myriad threads in places about how certain Macs with dGPUs have issues that you have to work around, blah blah... Honestly I wasn't paying close attention as I don't intend to install Boot Camp, but seemed like it was a PITA for many configurations out there (and easier on some, like the mini without a dGPU for example). I yield to those with direct experience with this.
Clearly your experience is not the only experience.
if your computer doesn't have TB3, then yes, you may have issues but it's not because of "Windows", it's because the Mac hardware is old and new carriages aren't designed with TB1 or 2 in mind.
I want to stress that the experience of a Mac user also has 0 to do with Windows support, since Razer, Alienware and FN sell egpu systems for sale with their Windows laptops and those work exactly as they do for me. Plug-n-play.
In fact, Razer sells its very, very commonly used Razer Core X for use with its own laptops...not Macs. The fact that it works on Macs is just gravy.
"They", as in Apple don't support it. Quoting that means nothing. Apple doesn't support it...because they don't *have* to. Windows/Microsoft supports egpus in Windows 10. All that blurb means is that they don't write code for Bootcamp to load an egpu device. And they don't have to. XConnect has been present on Windows for over a year. AMD takes care of that end and the carriage is autodetected by Windows universal drivers in Windows 10.
Plus that also means you can't call AppleCare about Windows egpu solutions via Bootcamp. Duh. We all know that. But it's a CYA on their part. Windows handles egpus in Bootcamp.
Bootcamp egpu is plug and play assuming 3 things:
1. Your Mac has Thunderbolt 3. Thunderbolt 2 and 1 require a ton of kext mods and whatnot. I've done it with a 2013 iMac I have at home that has TB1. It works but it's a pain and it takes a ton of jumping through hoops. But that's a computer that is over 5 years YEARS OLD. So I expect to have issues with that computer.
2. You use a clean, 18xx/1903 installation of Windows 10. No, not Windows 7. Windows 8. Windows 8.1. Windows XP. It has to be a newer build of Windows. You wouldn't try to install an egpu with macOS Jaguar. The same issue applies here.
3. You need to install clean, updated drivers and OS updates. That means removing any old ones you may have. Not installing over drivers. You also have to make sure that if you're running AMD's drivers, that you install the entire software suite so that it can start the Xconnect process. Also make sure your 1903 Windows build is updated to .295 (not .3/.329.359/.388/.418 because those have issues).
That's it. That's all you need. Yes, there will always be people that have issues. Because they fail to have one of the aforementioned requirements above. Maybe they have an old Mac mini. Or a laptop from Steve's time. Maybe they have a copy of Windows 7 or their Windows 10 install hasn't been updated since Hoover's office. Maybe they've installed AMD drivers over nVidia drivers over AMD drivers and everything is crufted up. Maybe they never bothered to install the new drivers at all. There are a lot of issues that can lead to people having problems. But whether you're running Bootcamp or flat Windows, all you need to do with a modern TB3 enabled system, an updated copy of Windows and fresh driver foundation is to booth the machine, plug in the egpu, see it autodetect in DM and then simply install the drivers. The end.
As for you not installing Bootcamp...I have. Over a dozen times. In fact my current main system is a Mac Mini 2018...with a Radeon VII egpu. And it worked as I said it did. My previous installation was a Macbook Pro 2016 15". Again, it worked exactly the same way.
I get some of you don't like Windows. It certainly has flaws and issues. (1903 post .300...grrr) but acting like it doesn't do something when it clearly does...is misleading and FUD.
Clearly not. Picking the worst possible situation doesn't prove anything.
Here're the same instructions off their forum for 90% of their audience:
https://egpu.io/forums/pc-setup/bootcamp-setup-guide-tb3-MacBook-pro/https://egpu.io/forums/pc-setup/bootcamp-setup-guide-tb3-MacBook-pro/
It repeats everything I said. Go read it.
Here's 9to5 Mac's Youtube video turning a Mac Mini into a gaming machine using an egpu. Setup takes 10 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMi8XdvZSs0
So maybe instead of complaining about stuff, you should accept that the vast, overwhelming majority have zero to no issues. Again, running an older Mac, older/unupdated Windows or failing to install drivers may cause problems, sure. And yes, sometimes people have unrealistic expecations. They may have problems because they want their igpu to operate on full-moon Tuesdays but not on second-Aquarius Wednesdays and want the dgpu to bring them tea and biscuits but only after 4 PM. But that kind of kit building is always going to require work.
That said, if you have a modern Mac (2016 or better) and you have a new copy of Windows on Bootcamp. And it's updated to 1903/.295 and you install the drivers, you WILL have success on Bootcamp. And posting exceptionalities is, again, just FUD.
If you have a 15-inch 2016 and the Mac mini, you're fine, like you said and seem to be experiencing. But, don't dismiss issues because you aren't experiencing them.
Again, it's great that you've had a plug and play experience. That's how it's supposed to work. That's how it's generally been for me. But, it isn't universally great, and there are fingers to be pointed at Apple and Microsoft as to why.
Posting examples of 2015 hardware or strange OS issues isn't proof that Windows/bootcamp doesn't support egpus. Firstly, bootcamp isn't even a real egpu-blocking thing. Bootcamp is just an efi config bootloader that lets you run Windows while employing pre-supplied Windows drivers that are provided by Apple. You don't even need to use the Bootcamp drivers if you don't want. In fact, you really should do your homework and swap out newer drivers if possible because usually you can find better performance.
My point with all this is when people say "Bootcamp doesn't support egpus"...what they mean to say is "Windows doesn't support egpus" because Bootcamp has nothing to do with the egpu detection. That's the Windows universal driver support that does it. Apple has 0 to do with that. They may supply a Windows AMD driver for you to use but the reality is that it wouldn't detect even if it was a default Windows-generated driver. The device will be detected by wuds FIRST and then once the hardware is identified, an AMD driver would take hold.
So this notion that "Bootcamp doesn't support egpus" is nonsense. Apple ships an AMD driver in bootcamp. it's an older driver. You shouldn't use it. Instead, you should just let Windows handle the device discovery and install a new AMD driver. The end.
You're conflating issues, and who you're talking to. I'm not sure why you're doubling down on it. There are problems in Catalina with the Polaris drivers, most likely. There are problems in Windows with eGPUs, like you said yourself and they've been aggravated by the last two Windows updates. The technology is nice, but it isn't perfect.
Is that so? It's not supported? So if you buy a new Mac today or have a recent Mac, are your chances of getting an egpu to work MORE or LESS likely?
Stop hedging and just put your pebble in one pile. Does it work for most people, or not?
It works for everybody in Windows with a 15-inch MacBook Pro. It works for everybody in Windows with a Mac mini. It works for almost nobody with a 2016 or 2017 13-inch MacBook Pro in Windows without workarounds that may not work, and, like you said, this is dependent on which Windows 10 update you're on. Your own links from egpu.io say this, explicitly.