Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.
Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.
Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.
Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".
At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment.
Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.
Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.
However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros" I mean ...... power users.
Apple Insider never fails to entertain. flame away......
ohhh.. there is one last thing:
Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses. Well at least for power users.
Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.
but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?
I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks. They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices. Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models? I think users would had appreciated that. They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops. Another example is Lenovo. Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C. But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.
Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.
Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.
Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.
Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".
At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment.
Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.
Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.
However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros" I mean ...... power users.
Apple Insider never fails to entertain. flame away......
ohhh.. there is one last thing:
Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses. Well at least for power users.
Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.
but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?
I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks. They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices. Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models? I think users would had appreciated that. They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops. Another example is Lenovo. Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C. But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.
I really don’t agree. People have to get over their hatred of adapters. I’d rather have all modern ports r\than modern and older ports. If there was no backwards portability, I’d agree with you in a heartbeat. But there is. So no, I don’t agree. PCs carry obsolete standards forwards well after nobody cares about them. I think that makes no sense, and holds everybody back. Manufacturers of peripherals will just avoid redesigning equipment if they know old ports will remain around. We’ve seen this over the years. You have to force the issue, and Apple is doing the right thing here. There are other laptops with just USB C ports. Apple isn’t the only one. I’ll bet that in two years fewer computers will have these old ports.
Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.
Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.
Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.
Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".
At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment.
Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.
Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.
However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros" I mean ...... power users.
Apple Insider never fails to entertain. flame away......
ohhh.. there is one last thing:
Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses. Well at least for power users.
Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.
but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?
I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks. They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices. Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models? I think users would had appreciated that. They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops. Another example is Lenovo. Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C. But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.
I really don’t agree. People have to get over their hatred of adapters. I’d rather have all modern ports r\than modern and older ports. If there was no backwards portability, I’d agree with you in a heartbeat. But there is. So no, I don’t agree. PCs carry obsolete standards forwards well after nobody cares about them. I think that makes no sense, and holds everybody back. Manufacturers of peripherals will just avoid redesigning equipment if they know old ports will remain around. We’ve seen this over the years. You have to force the issue, and Apple is doing the right thing here. There are other laptops with just USB C ports. Apple isn’t the only one. I’ll bet that in two years fewer computers will have these old ports.
First of all, PC's are not the only who has USB-A ports. As today, Apple still includes USB-A in the Mac Mini , iMac / iMac Pro, and the latest Mac Pro. Even most of their mobile devices include USB-A cables.
Second, I'm not against going forward with technology. But I see no problems with a device like the Thinkpad P1, that has USB-A and USB-C, giving you time to transition your devices at your pace. At some point everyone is going to move to the latest technology, including USB-C. But IMO, the decision should be made by users and customers, not Apple. Even Apple have made the move yet for most of their devices. Have you consider why?
By the time TB3 peripherals become commonplace, there will probably be Thunderbolt 5, with a different physical connector, that Apple will be putting on all their machines. So we'll need TB5 to TB3 dongles to connect our Macs to anything.
I’m really happy to see Apple paying attention to the needs of professionals!
(to clarify — by “professionals” I mean people who use their Macs for paid work.)
Except the SD card slot and optical audio didn’t come back. The former is still widely used by professional photographers and I’m not sure how much space and cost Apple saved for the latter, but it can’t have been much; it’s something that some people really loved. Apple cutting the ports seemed more about trying to push the adoption of USB+C, but I don’t think that was necessary because although it got off to a slow start it was the natural progression for USB anyway.
So for me this new MacBook is a mixed blessing. I like the bigger screen, slimmer bezels and improved battery and keyboard, but if those two former interfaces/ports returned it would’ve been perfect.
In the interview the other day that’s been posted here too, Schiller made an excellent argument as to why the SD slot is unlikely to return.
I'm a photographer as well. Over the past two decades we went from some cameras using “smart cards”, to compact Flash to SD. Which of those slots should Apple have supported, and for how long? The problem is that even with SD, we’ve seen major advancements. Newer SD cards don’t work in older SD slots, and older cards may, or may not work in newer ones. What about CF Express, and others? The fact is that having a slot is only good for a relatively short time. It’s got to accommodate a number of different generations of cards. It needs to have good performance. There just isn’t any way to do that with a permanent slot, and technology.
in the olde days, when laptops were 1.5 inches thick, you could have slide in openings where newer adapters could fit, and if the bus was able to, you could get improved performance. But nobody wants to go back to those days. I’m sure that a number of people who carry these around with them all day are even moaning at the small weight increase. Laptops have become much more portable than the 7 pound models we had a number of years ago, and those were a lot lighter than the much heavier ones before that. Nobody want to go back in time that way.
so for best performance—for those who need the slot, a fast USB C or TB3 to SD card adapter is the ideal way to go. We can get a CF adapter for the greatest speed, and an older model for older, slower cards. They don’t cost all that much. And if you're a pro photographer, not only do you have thousands of dollars of computer equipment, but possibly many thousands in pro photo gear. And keep in mind that the bigger, faster CF Express cards can cost over $200 apiece! So that adapter means nothing in terms of cost. As far as carrying it with you, well, you’ve already got a number of memory cards, chargers, batteries, flashes, and,other cords for your camera equipment in something to carry them. Bringing another adapter isn’t an issue.
If that SD card slot is useful to most people with a camera, because most cameras have SD, then why not add it? Does it mean you're unable to use that Mac because it has a SD card slot? Does it somehow disadvantage you? It doesn't mean that in special cases like yours where people have a CF card you can't use one of your beloved adapters. It's very rare to find a SD card that doesn't work in a SD slot.
Because SD is a rapidly changing technology. Today’s slot likely won’t work with an SD card from next year. A slot from two years ago won’t work with many of today’s SD cards. What’s the point, to have the lowest common denominator?
guys like you think backwards. So let’s just add every port that still exists because they won’t bother you? What kind of thinking is that? I see no point to having a slot that will be obsolete far sooner than the rest of the computer. And since this is a PROFESSIONAL machine, old SD cards are worthless. You may not know it, but pros buy the card their camera fits, which isn’t an old, slow card. Newer cameras don’t use five year old card types.
if you want to make the case for this in a consumer level machine, you’ve got a better case for it.
What? Where did you get that from? My 2012 iMac works perfectly with an SD card I bought two weeks ago, as does my 2015 Macbook and 2019 iMac. They all work just as well with an ancient 256mb card that I've had for 15 years. SD is basically SPI, and SPI has been essentially the same since its invention in the 1980's. My brand new £1700 Sony a6600 works even with that ancient 256mb card - I tried it just for you. So don't make up lies to try and prove a point, it weakens your position substantially.
I'm not asking for every port. I have Firewire drives somewhere, I don't ask for a port for that. I don't care that Ethernet is missing. I don't care that there's no CD drive. I don't care that there's a nonremovable battery. Plentyof people still use SD. Pretty much every camera uses SD. If it's barely used, why leave it on the latest iMacs? I use the SD card 100x more than I use the camera on my Macbook, but I'm not calling for that to be removed because I don't use it. Guys like you can only see a very small circle around you, where everyone has Macs, everyone has the latest hardware, everyone has the cash to upgrade everything, and where apparently SD has managed to morph into a fragmented mess. In the real world, that's not the case.
Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.
Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.
Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.
Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".
At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment.
Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.
Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.
However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros" I mean ...... power users.
Apple Insider never fails to entertain. flame away......
ohhh.. there is one last thing:
Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses. Well at least for power users.
Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.
but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?
I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks. They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices. Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models? I think users would had appreciated that. They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops. Another example is Lenovo. Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C. But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.
HDMI is the standard for connecting a device to a monitor or television.
You're seeing a lot of MBPs hooked up to TVs are you? That's a world I don't want to live in. I still see a lot more projectors with VGA, so based on your stupid argument Apple should keep VGA in their Macs. If I was as selfish as you I'd be complaining that they don't include serial ports since that's the one thing I'd have to spend some money and considerable effort to get working on my MBP with an adapter and drivers.
There are alternatives available, but HDMI is the most ubiquitous standard out there...
No it's not. USB is and only in regards to physical port data protocol standards, which is exactly what you get with all those wonderful USB-C ports on Macs, Windows, iPads, and Android devices.
...and it's modern and in active development.
And USB-C isn't? Good one!
Apple include it on other current devices that they sell.
What other laptops include it? In the history of the Mac notebooks they've hardly ever included it. They used to include a bunch of dongle with Mac which was such a waste as we moved through a different video out port interface standard every couple years. Having TB3 which can do 40 Gibps for video along with peripherals and power through a single cable is what people who actually care about technology had hoped for decades would eventually come to fruition.
Maybe the majority don't need it, but the idea that the majority need 4 thunderbolt ports is equally bizarre.
1) Maybe? You really don't know if the majority of people need to connect to a TV via HDMI? Now you're just having a laugh. And wired projectors are outmoded. Do you think that's what Apple does, or do you think they have an Apple TV connected and then using AirPlay to connect using the built-in Conference Room option. I think the answer is
2) Since every port can be dozen or more different ports, including being able to switch your power to whatever size works best for a particular mobile set up, then 4 is about right. I'd prefer 6 but 2 would be too few for my needs.
Not sure how you can justify the passive agressive "thats on you" regarding replacing cables and devices, when you yourself are using old devices and a truckload of adaptors, exactly the same as I am. Like most people I don't readily appreciate having to pay to replace things that work fine just because Apple have decided that a Thunderbolt only future is easiest on them.
If you don't like 2019 then get an old Mac or use your old Mac. No one is forcing you to get the latest model and yet all you do is bitch when Apple updates something. Either buy it or move the fuck on, there's no reason to complain that a company chooses to make products that don't suit your needs. I'm sticking with my current MBP because the new one—as great it is—doesn't suit enough of my needs at the moment. That's as complex as it needs to be.
You you have basically shown you have no eff'n clue what you're talking about. Every single LCD projector I've seen for the last 5 years has had a VGA and a HDMI port in it. You know how many have had a USB C? Zero. Zilch. none. I'm sure some may be made, but they're not in any conference rooms I've been in, so this argument that USB C is being developed and is a viable alternative for this use is laughable. And to argue that USB is a standard for video?
No one ever said USB C wasn't being developed. Clearly you have trouble comprehending what you read.
If anyone's requirement to include a port is that a majority of users use it then the only port we would include is a power port. Are you arguing that the majority of users use 4 TB3 ports? No one here has ever said the majority of users use an HDMI port. They have said that a significant number have. the majority argument is simply a perversion and twisting of statements to suit your argument.
As for Apple TV -serously???? I have seen an Apple TV in a conference room once. And it has since been removed because it wasn't useful. Oh, and you know how it was hooked up to the video projector? With an HDMI cable. One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
You can say it wouldn't be useful to you, but to argue that HDMI is obsolete and unused, or that USB C is more useful for this use is beyond ignorant.
HDMI is the standard for connecting a device to a monitor or television.
You're seeing a lot of MBPs hooked up to TVs are you? That's a world I don't want to live in. I still see a lot more projectors with VGA, so based on your stupid argument Apple should keep VGA in their Macs. If I was as selfish as you I'd be complaining that they don't include serial ports since that's the one thing I'd have to spend some money and considerable effort to get working on my MBP with an adapter and drivers.
There are alternatives available, but HDMI is the most ubiquitous standard out there...
No it's not. USB is and only in regards to physical port data protocol standards, which is exactly what you get with all those wonderful USB-C ports on Macs, Windows, iPads, and Android devices.
...and it's modern and in active development.
And USB-C isn't? Good one!
Apple include it on other current devices that they sell.
What other laptops include it? In the history of the Mac notebooks they've hardly ever included it. They used to include a bunch of dongle with Mac which was such a waste as we moved through a different video out port interface standard every couple years. Having TB3 which can do 40 Gibps for video along with peripherals and power through a single cable is what people who actually care about technology had hoped for decades would eventually come to fruition.
Maybe the majority don't need it, but the idea that the majority need 4 thunderbolt ports is equally bizarre.
1) Maybe? You really don't know if the majority of people need to connect to a TV via HDMI? Now you're just having a laugh. And wired projectors are outmoded. Do you think that's what Apple does, or do you think they have an Apple TV connected and then using AirPlay to connect using the built-in Conference Room option. I think the answer is
2) Since every port can be dozen or more different ports, including being able to switch your power to whatever size works best for a particular mobile set up, then 4 is about right. I'd prefer 6 but 2 would be too few for my needs.
Not sure how you can justify the passive agressive "thats on you" regarding replacing cables and devices, when you yourself are using old devices and a truckload of adaptors, exactly the same as I am. Like most people I don't readily appreciate having to pay to replace things that work fine just because Apple have decided that a Thunderbolt only future is easiest on them.
If you don't like 2019 then get an old Mac or use your old Mac. No one is forcing you to get the latest model and yet all you do is bitch when Apple updates something. Either buy it or move the fuck on, there's no reason to complain that a company chooses to make products that don't suit your needs. I'm sticking with my current MBP because the new one—as great it is—doesn't suit enough of my needs at the moment. That's as complex as it needs to be.
You you have basically shown you have no eff'n clue what you're talking about. Every single LCD projector I've seen for the last 5 years has had a VGA and a HDMI port in it. You know how many have had a USB C? Zero. Zilch. none. I'm sure some may be made, but they're not in any conference rooms I've been in, so this argument that USB C is being developed and is a viable alternative for this use is laughable. And to argue that USB is a standard for video?
No one ever said USB C wasn't being developed. Clearly you have trouble comprehending what you read.
If anyone's requirement to include a port is that a majority of users use it then the only port we would include is a power port. Are you arguing that the majority of users use 4 TB3 ports? No one here has ever said the majority of users use an HDMI port. They have said that a significant number have. the majority argument is simply a perversion and twisting of statements to suit your argument.
As for Apple TV -serously???? I have seen an Apple TV in a conference room once. And it has since been removed because it wasn't useful. Oh, and you know how it was hooked up to the video projector? With an HDMI cable. One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
You can say it wouldn't be useful to you, but to argue that HDMI is obsolete and unused, or that USB C is more useful for this use is beyond ignorant.
1) Reasonable solution: Use a VGA-to-USB-C cable or adapter if your projector requires that wired connection. Uneasonable solution: Complain that Apple doesn't include a VGA port on their Mac notebook.
HDMI is the standard for connecting a device to a monitor or television.
You're seeing a lot of MBPs hooked up to TVs are you? That's a world I don't want to live in. I still see a lot more projectors with VGA, so based on your stupid argument Apple should keep VGA in their Macs. If I was as selfish as you I'd be complaining that they don't include serial ports since that's the one thing I'd have to spend some money and considerable effort to get working on my MBP with an adapter and drivers.
There are alternatives available, but HDMI is the most ubiquitous standard out there...
No it's not. USB is and only in regards to physical port data protocol standards, which is exactly what you get with all those wonderful USB-C ports on Macs, Windows, iPads, and Android devices.
...and it's modern and in active development.
And USB-C isn't? Good one!
Apple include it on other current devices that they sell.
What other laptops include it? In the history of the Mac notebooks they've hardly ever included it. They used to include a bunch of dongle with Mac which was such a waste as we moved through a different video out port interface standard every couple years. Having TB3 which can do 40 Gibps for video along with peripherals and power through a single cable is what people who actually care about technology had hoped for decades would eventually come to fruition.
Maybe the majority don't need it, but the idea that the majority need 4 thunderbolt ports is equally bizarre.
1) Maybe? You really don't know if the majority of people need to connect to a TV via HDMI? Now you're just having a laugh. And wired projectors are outmoded. Do you think that's what Apple does, or do you think they have an Apple TV connected and then using AirPlay to connect using the built-in Conference Room option. I think the answer is
2) Since every port can be dozen or more different ports, including being able to switch your power to whatever size works best for a particular mobile set up, then 4 is about right. I'd prefer 6 but 2 would be too few for my needs.
Not sure how you can justify the passive agressive "thats on you" regarding replacing cables and devices, when you yourself are using old devices and a truckload of adaptors, exactly the same as I am. Like most people I don't readily appreciate having to pay to replace things that work fine just because Apple have decided that a Thunderbolt only future is easiest on them.
If you don't like 2019 then get an old Mac or use your old Mac. No one is forcing you to get the latest model and yet all you do is bitch when Apple updates something. Either buy it or move the fuck on, there's no reason to complain that a company chooses to make products that don't suit your needs. I'm sticking with my current MBP because the new one—as great it is—doesn't suit enough of my needs at the moment. That's as complex as it needs to be.
You you have basically shown you have no eff'n clue what you're talking about. Every single LCD projector I've seen for the last 5 years has had a VGA and a HDMI port in it. You know how many have had a USB C? Zero. Zilch. none. I'm sure some may be made, but they're not in any conference rooms I've been in, so this argument that USB C is being developed and is a viable alternative for this use is laughable. And to argue that USB is a standard for video?
No one ever said USB C wasn't being developed. Clearly you have trouble comprehending what you read.
If anyone's requirement to include a port is that a majority of users use it then the only port we would include is a power port. Are you arguing that the majority of users use 4 TB3 ports? No one here has ever said the majority of users use an HDMI port. They have said that a significant number have. the majority argument is simply a perversion and twisting of statements to suit your argument.
As for Apple TV -serously???? I have seen an Apple TV in a conference room once. And it has since been removed because it wasn't useful. Oh, and you know how it was hooked up to the video projector? With an HDMI cable. One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
You can say it wouldn't be useful to you, but to argue that HDMI is obsolete and unused, or that USB C is more useful for this use is beyond ignorant.
1) Reasonable solution: Use a VGA-to-USB-C cable or adapter if your projector requires that wired connection. Uneasonable solution: Complain that Apple doesn't include a VGA port on their Mac notebook.
2) If someone can't figure how to use AirPlay from a Mac to iDevice to an Apple TV then I feel sorry for them.
If someone can’t read I also feel sorry for them. - No one here has complained that a VGA port wasn’t included. - I can use AirPlay fine. The copy protection prevented its use forcing me to directly connect the computer.
It seems the only way you can counter an argument is to change it to suit your tastes.
HDMI is the standard for connecting a device to a monitor or television.
You're seeing a lot of MBPs hooked up to TVs are you? That's a world I don't want to live in. I still see a lot more projectors with VGA, so based on your stupid argument Apple should keep VGA in their Macs. If I was as selfish as you I'd be complaining that they don't include serial ports since that's the one thing I'd have to spend some money and considerable effort to get working on my MBP with an adapter and drivers.
There are alternatives available, but HDMI is the most ubiquitous standard out there...
No it's not. USB is and only in regards to physical port data protocol standards, which is exactly what you get with all those wonderful USB-C ports on Macs, Windows, iPads, and Android devices.
...and it's modern and in active development.
And USB-C isn't? Good one!
Apple include it on other current devices that they sell.
What other laptops include it? In the history of the Mac notebooks they've hardly ever included it. They used to include a bunch of dongle with Mac which was such a waste as we moved through a different video out port interface standard every couple years. Having TB3 which can do 40 Gibps for video along with peripherals and power through a single cable is what people who actually care about technology had hoped for decades would eventually come to fruition.
Maybe the majority don't need it, but the idea that the majority need 4 thunderbolt ports is equally bizarre.
1) Maybe? You really don't know if the majority of people need to connect to a TV via HDMI? Now you're just having a laugh. And wired projectors are outmoded. Do you think that's what Apple does, or do you think they have an Apple TV connected and then using AirPlay to connect using the built-in Conference Room option. I think the answer is
2) Since every port can be dozen or more different ports, including being able to switch your power to whatever size works best for a particular mobile set up, then 4 is about right. I'd prefer 6 but 2 would be too few for my needs.
Not sure how you can justify the passive agressive "thats on you" regarding replacing cables and devices, when you yourself are using old devices and a truckload of adaptors, exactly the same as I am. Like most people I don't readily appreciate having to pay to replace things that work fine just because Apple have decided that a Thunderbolt only future is easiest on them.
If you don't like 2019 then get an old Mac or use your old Mac. No one is forcing you to get the latest model and yet all you do is bitch when Apple updates something. Either buy it or move the fuck on, there's no reason to complain that a company chooses to make products that don't suit your needs. I'm sticking with my current MBP because the new one—as great it is—doesn't suit enough of my needs at the moment. That's as complex as it needs to be.
You you have basically shown you have no eff'n clue what you're talking about. Every single LCD projector I've seen for the last 5 years has had a VGA and a HDMI port in it. You know how many have had a USB C? Zero. Zilch. none. I'm sure some may be made, but they're not in any conference rooms I've been in, so this argument that USB C is being developed and is a viable alternative for this use is laughable. And to argue that USB is a standard for video?
No one ever said USB C wasn't being developed. Clearly you have trouble comprehending what you read.
If anyone's requirement to include a port is that a majority of users use it then the only port we would include is a power port. Are you arguing that the majority of users use 4 TB3 ports? No one here has ever said the majority of users use an HDMI port. They have said that a significant number have. the majority argument is simply a perversion and twisting of statements to suit your argument.
As for Apple TV -serously???? I have seen an Apple TV in a conference room once. And it has since been removed because it wasn't useful. Oh, and you know how it was hooked up to the video projector? With an HDMI cable. One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
You can say it wouldn't be useful to you, but to argue that HDMI is obsolete and unused, or that USB C is more useful for this use is beyond ignorant.
1) Reasonable solution: Use a VGA-to-USB-C cable or adapter if your projector requires that wired connection. Uneasonable solution: Complain that Apple doesn't include a VGA port on their Mac notebook.
2) If someone can't figure how to use AirPlay from a Mac to iDevice to an Apple TV then I feel sorry for them.
If someone can’t read I also feel sorry for them. - No one here has complained that a VGA port wasn’t included. - I can use AirPlay fine. The copy protection prevented its use forcing me to directly connect the computer.
It seems the only way you can counter an argument is to change it to suit your tastes.
1) VGA are still on more projectors than HDMI, so according to your silly agreement that should be also be included despite you not directly stating that.
2) I mention an Apple TV for a simple wireless way to connect any number of devices to a conference room for presentations, which you countered with an issue you once had HDCP as if that's a common occurrence with slideshows.
3) You keep bitching about something that is clearly not going to happen. What's your end game here? I could use a serial port because of all the older network equipment I have to connect to, but I you absolutely will not see me cry that Apple still doesn't include serial ports on their Macs.
This. HDMI is THE standard when it comes to video connections for presentations. It’s simple and nearly universal. I have yet to see a video projector in a conference room that doesn’t have it and beyond that, none of these projectors can do 4K, so being able to connect 100 monitors via the thunderbolt 10 port is a completely moot point. My daughter needed a new laptop for college and her first question was “does it have an HDMI port, ‘cause that’s what I need to do presentations”
Now all of the Apple sycophants will go on and on about ‘just buy an adapter’ and ‘be prepared’ and how it’s obviously your fault for not having the right equipment with, and I assume that none of these people have ever forgotten anything or had an adapter break or have someone borrow it and not return it, etc. Nor have they had an adapter not work properly. The fact of the matter is, rather than have a couple of the most common ports available to people, Apple made a decision that ‘we can make USB C do everything’ and, user convenience be damned, they can go out and buy all the ports cables and docks and hubs.
As for “cables vs adapters” - that’s a completely semantic argument and ignores the point.
I'll byte.
What about the users who want this laptop, with 4 USB-C ports, and never ever want to do a presentation? Never in need of HDMI?
See Phil's take on ports: “Do you think there’s ever a chance that the SD card slot makes a comeback?”
Schiller replied:
“Probably not, again nothing about the future is in stone, and things can always change. But, as we’ve been spending a lot of time with MacBook Pro surveying what our customers use, what I/O they need, where their needs are growing and how they are changing, and did a lot of soul searching on it and asking ourselves about a lot of connectors about USB-A about SD card readers, about HDMI and requestioning everything. And really what we came down to is more and more customers are taking advantage of USB-C and Thunderbolt, love the incredible headroom in performance there is there, the higher power there is, the charging ability there is, and so we think having on the highest-end notebook four USB-C/Thunderbolt ports gives the most headroom for the things you will be doing in the years ahead. And the trade-off is for a few traditional media types like SD card readers means using an adapter but there are USB-C adapters, I carry one for that. And ultimately, that gives you the highest performance and most flexibility with this arrangement. So after a lot of soul searching, we think we’ve done the best thing for customers with the I/O we have, meaning we don’t have every port type in the world on it.”
You’re presenting it as an ‘either/or’ proposition. It’s not. Why not keep the USB C ports and include an HDMI, or get rid of one of them? How many people need 4 - thunderbolt 3/USB 3 ports? And, as many people here are so fond of pointing out, if you actually need 4 ports but only have 3 (or 2 or 1,) just buy a hub.
My point is that a very common use of laptops is to take with to give presentations, and an HDMI port is integral to that use. Is it possible to make do without the HDMI port? Absolutely, but it is also absolutely more convenient and reliable to have one built in. Not only that, for a portable device you run the very real risk of not having the proper adapter with you, making it useless for the desired task. In any device like a laptop, it’s impossible to include ‘everything’ but Apple has gone the opposite route and included only one thing.
I'm using all four of my TB3 ports right now. I have never once in my life owned a Mac with an HDMI port (skipped that generation of MBP), nor have I needed one.
And, if we're being honest, that was the ONLY generation of MBP that ever had HDMI, for a total of FOUR YEARS, EVER. Note that there are a gazillion users out there with MacBook Airs and those never even had HDMI, ever. Strange that I don't recall ever hearing them freaking out about not having HDMI.
Yes Apple should add back SD card slot and MagSafe first. Then and only then HDMI last.
HDMI is the standard for connecting a device to a monitor or television.
You're seeing a lot of MBPs hooked up to TVs are you? That's a world I don't want to live in. I still see a lot more projectors with VGA, so based on your stupid argument Apple should keep VGA in their Macs. If I was as selfish as you I'd be complaining that they don't include serial ports since that's the one thing I'd have to spend some money and considerable effort to get working on my MBP with an adapter and drivers.
There are alternatives available, but HDMI is the most ubiquitous standard out there...
No it's not. USB is and only in regards to physical port data protocol standards, which is exactly what you get with all those wonderful USB-C ports on Macs, Windows, iPads, and Android devices.
...and it's modern and in active development.
And USB-C isn't? Good one!
Apple include it on other current devices that they sell.
What other laptops include it? In the history of the Mac notebooks they've hardly ever included it. They used to include a bunch of dongle with Mac which was such a waste as we moved through a different video out port interface standard every couple years. Having TB3 which can do 40 Gibps for video along with peripherals and power through a single cable is what people who actually care about technology had hoped for decades would eventually come to fruition.
Maybe the majority don't need it, but the idea that the majority need 4 thunderbolt ports is equally bizarre.
1) Maybe? You really don't know if the majority of people need to connect to a TV via HDMI? Now you're just having a laugh. And wired projectors are outmoded. Do you think that's what Apple does, or do you think they have an Apple TV connected and then using AirPlay to connect using the built-in Conference Room option. I think the answer is
2) Since every port can be dozen or more different ports, including being able to switch your power to whatever size works best for a particular mobile set up, then 4 is about right. I'd prefer 6 but 2 would be too few for my needs.
Not sure how you can justify the passive agressive "thats on you" regarding replacing cables and devices, when you yourself are using old devices and a truckload of adaptors, exactly the same as I am. Like most people I don't readily appreciate having to pay to replace things that work fine just because Apple have decided that a Thunderbolt only future is easiest on them.
If you don't like 2019 then get an old Mac or use your old Mac. No one is forcing you to get the latest model and yet all you do is bitch when Apple updates something. Either buy it or move the fuck on, there's no reason to complain that a company chooses to make products that don't suit your needs. I'm sticking with my current MBP because the new one—as great it is—doesn't suit enough of my needs at the moment. That's as complex as it needs to be.
You you have basically shown you have no eff'n clue what you're talking about. Every single LCD projector I've seen for the last 5 years has had a VGA and a HDMI port in it. You know how many have had a USB C? Zero. Zilch. none. I'm sure some may be made, but they're not in any conference rooms I've been in, so this argument that USB C is being developed and is a viable alternative for this use is laughable. And to argue that USB is a standard for video?
No one ever said USB C wasn't being developed. Clearly you have trouble comprehending what you read.
If anyone's requirement to include a port is that a majority of users use it then the only port we would include is a power port. Are you arguing that the majority of users use 4 TB3 ports? No one here has ever said the majority of users use an HDMI port. They have said that a significant number have. the majority argument is simply a perversion and twisting of statements to suit your argument.
As for Apple TV -serously???? I have seen an Apple TV in a conference room once. And it has since been removed because it wasn't useful. Oh, and you know how it was hooked up to the video projector? With an HDMI cable. One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
You can say it wouldn't be useful to you, but to argue that HDMI is obsolete and unused, or that USB C is more useful for this use is beyond ignorant.
Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.
Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.
Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.
Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".
At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment.
Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.
Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.
However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros" I mean ...... power users.
Apple Insider never fails to entertain. flame away......
ohhh.. there is one last thing:
Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses. Well at least for power users.
Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.
but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?
I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks. They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices. Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models? I think users would had appreciated that. They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops. Another example is Lenovo. Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C. But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.
I really don’t agree. People have to get over their hatred of adapters. I’d rather have all modern ports r\than modern and older ports. If there was no backwards portability, I’d agree with you in a heartbeat. But there is. So no, I don’t agree. PCs carry obsolete standards forwards well after nobody cares about them. I think that makes no sense, and holds everybody back. Manufacturers of peripherals will just avoid redesigning equipment if they know old ports will remain around. We’ve seen this over the years. You have to force the issue, and Apple is doing the right thing here. There are other laptops with just USB C ports. Apple isn’t the only one. I’ll bet that in two years fewer computers will have these old ports.
First of all, PC's are not the only who has USB-A ports. As today, Apple still includes USB-A in the Mac Mini , iMac / iMac Pro, and the latest Mac Pro. Even most of their mobile devices include USB-A cables.
Second, I'm not against going forward with technology. But I see no problems with a device like the Thinkpad P1, that has USB-A and USB-C, giving you time to transition your devices at your pace. At some point everyone is going to move to the latest technology, including USB-C. But IMO, the decision should be made by users and customers, not Apple. Even Apple have made the move yet for most of their devices. Have you consider why?
The decision is always going to be made by manufacturers. Don’t get into the myth that customers decide these issues, because they don’t. A manufacturer wants to cut costs, and simplify. One does it first, and others follow. Somebody has to do it. Apple is usually first, and others laugh and complain, but then a couple of years later, everyone else has done it too.
they haven’t done it yet for Desktop machines, because this are far more likely to be used with peripherals, that are older than with notebooks, notebooks also have less space. Don’t be surprised if Apple removes most of those ports in a couple of years.
I’m really happy to see Apple paying attention to the needs of professionals!
(to clarify — by “professionals” I mean people who use their Macs for paid work.)
Except the SD card slot and optical audio didn’t come back. The former is still widely used by professional photographers and I’m not sure how much space and cost Apple saved for the latter, but it can’t have been much; it’s something that some people really loved. Apple cutting the ports seemed more about trying to push the adoption of USB+C, but I don’t think that was necessary because although it got off to a slow start it was the natural progression for USB anyway.
So for me this new MacBook is a mixed blessing. I like the bigger screen, slimmer bezels and improved battery and keyboard, but if those two former interfaces/ports returned it would’ve been perfect.
In the interview the other day that’s been posted here too, Schiller made an excellent argument as to why the SD slot is unlikely to return.
I'm a photographer as well. Over the past two decades we went from some cameras using “smart cards”, to compact Flash to SD. Which of those slots should Apple have supported, and for how long? The problem is that even with SD, we’ve seen major advancements. Newer SD cards don’t work in older SD slots, and older cards may, or may not work in newer ones. What about CF Express, and others? The fact is that having a slot is only good for a relatively short time. It’s got to accommodate a number of different generations of cards. It needs to have good performance. There just isn’t any way to do that with a permanent slot, and technology.
in the olde days, when laptops were 1.5 inches thick, you could have slide in openings where newer adapters could fit, and if the bus was able to, you could get improved performance. But nobody wants to go back to those days. I’m sure that a number of people who carry these around with them all day are even moaning at the small weight increase. Laptops have become much more portable than the 7 pound models we had a number of years ago, and those were a lot lighter than the much heavier ones before that. Nobody want to go back in time that way.
so for best performance—for those who need the slot, a fast USB C or TB3 to SD card adapter is the ideal way to go. We can get a CF adapter for the greatest speed, and an older model for older, slower cards. They don’t cost all that much. And if you're a pro photographer, not only do you have thousands of dollars of computer equipment, but possibly many thousands in pro photo gear. And keep in mind that the bigger, faster CF Express cards can cost over $200 apiece! So that adapter means nothing in terms of cost. As far as carrying it with you, well, you’ve already got a number of memory cards, chargers, batteries, flashes, and,other cords for your camera equipment in something to carry them. Bringing another adapter isn’t an issue.
If that SD card slot is useful to most people with a camera, because most cameras have SD, then why not add it? Does it mean you're unable to use that Mac because it has a SD card slot? Does it somehow disadvantage you? It doesn't mean that in special cases like yours where people have a CF card you can't use one of your beloved adapters. It's very rare to find a SD card that doesn't work in a SD slot.
Because SD is a rapidly changing technology. Today’s slot likely won’t work with an SD card from next year. A slot from two years ago won’t work with many of today’s SD cards. What’s the point, to have the lowest common denominator?
guys like you think backwards. So let’s just add every port that still exists because they won’t bother you? What kind of thinking is that? I see no point to having a slot that will be obsolete far sooner than the rest of the computer. And since this is a PROFESSIONAL machine, old SD cards are worthless. You may not know it, but pros buy the card their camera fits, which isn’t an old, slow card. Newer cameras don’t use five year old card types.
if you want to make the case for this in a consumer level machine, you’ve got a better case for it.
What? Where did you get that from? My 2012 iMac works perfectly with an SD card I bought two weeks ago, as does my 2015 Macbook and 2019 iMac. They all work just as well with an ancient 256mb card that I've had for 15 years. SD is basically SPI, and SPI has been essentially the same since its invention in the 1980's. My brand new £1700 Sony a6600 works even with that ancient 256mb card - I tried it just for you. So don't make up lies to try and prove a point, it weakens your position substantially.
I'm not asking for every port. I have Firewire drives somewhere, I don't ask for a port for that. I don't care that Ethernet is missing. I don't care that there's no CD drive. I don't care that there's a nonremovable battery. Plentyof people still use SD. Pretty much every camera uses SD. If it's barely used, why leave it on the latest iMacs? I use the SD card 100x more than I use the camera on my Macbook, but I'm not calling for that to be removed because I don't use it. Guys like you can only see a very small circle around you, where everyone has Macs, everyone has the latest hardware, everyone has the cash to upgrade everything, and where apparently SD has managed to morph into a fragmented mess. In the real world, that's not the case.
Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.
Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.
Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.
Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".
At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment.
Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.
Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.
However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros" I mean ...... power users.
Apple Insider never fails to entertain. flame away......
ohhh.. there is one last thing:
Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses. Well at least for power users.
Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.
but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?
I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks. They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices. Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models? I think users would had appreciated that. They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops. Another example is Lenovo. Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C. But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.
I really don’t agree. People have to get over their hatred of adapters. I’d rather have all modern ports r\than modern and older ports. If there was no backwards portability, I’d agree with you in a heartbeat. But there is. So no, I don’t agree. PCs carry obsolete standards forwards well after nobody cares about them. I think that makes no sense, and holds everybody back. Manufacturers of peripherals will just avoid redesigning equipment if they know old ports will remain around. We’ve seen this over the years. You have to force the issue, and Apple is doing the right thing here. There are other laptops with just USB C ports. Apple isn’t the only one. I’ll bet that in two years fewer computers will have these old ports.
First of all, PC's are not the only who has USB-A ports. As today, Apple still includes USB-A in the Mac Mini , iMac / iMac Pro, and the latest Mac Pro. Even most of their mobile devices include USB-A cables.
Second, I'm not against going forward with technology. But I see no problems with a device like the Thinkpad P1, that has USB-A and USB-C, giving you time to transition your devices at your pace. At some point everyone is going to move to the latest technology, including USB-C. But IMO, the decision should be made by users and customers, not Apple. Even Apple have made the move yet for most of their devices. Have you consider why?
The decision is always going to be made by manufacturers. Don’t get into the myth that customers decide these issues, because they don’t. A manufacturer wants to cut costs, and simplify. One does it first, and others follow. Somebody has to do it. Apple is usually first, and others laugh and complain, but then a couple of years later, everyone else has done it too.
they haven’t done it yet for Desktop machines, because this are far more likely to be used with peripherals, that are older than with notebooks, notebooks also have less space. Don’t be surprised if Apple removes most of those ports in a couple of years.
If you read carefully, I said that customers "should" decide, not that they make the final decision.
Second, Apple being first on removing ports from their notebooks created a mixed message. If USB-C is what everyone should be using, why kept them in their desktops? You said that is because of peripherals, but isn't those the peripherals users are asking to use in their MBP's? You also said that is because space, but there are similar devices, as the Thinkpad P1, that have USB-C, USB-A and even SD cards. What is interesting is that MBP's users, the one that requiere mobility, need to add adapters and dongles to connect their devices. At the same time, users with Apple desktops have no issues connecting their USB-A device, even though they have desk space to add adapters, dockings and dongles. Apple message on USB-C is very confusing. It would have been easier is they had added one or two USB-A ports, don't you think?
At some point Apple will remove the USB-A port from their desktops, the same way Lenovo and every manufacturer will remove them from their devices, but not because Apple said so. It just technology and customers moving forward.
HDMI is the standard for connecting a device to a monitor or television.
You're seeing a lot of MBPs hooked up to TVs are you? That's a world I don't want to live in. I still see a lot more projectors with VGA, so based on your stupid argument Apple should keep VGA in their Macs. If I was as selfish as you I'd be complaining that they don't include serial ports since that's the one thing I'd have to spend some money and considerable effort to get working on my MBP with an adapter and drivers.
There are alternatives available, but HDMI is the most ubiquitous standard out there...
No it's not. USB is and only in regards to physical port data protocol standards, which is exactly what you get with all those wonderful USB-C ports on Macs, Windows, iPads, and Android devices.
...and it's modern and in active development.
And USB-C isn't? Good one!
Apple include it on other current devices that they sell.
What other laptops include it? In the history of the Mac notebooks they've hardly ever included it. They used to include a bunch of dongle with Mac which was such a waste as we moved through a different video out port interface standard every couple years. Having TB3 which can do 40 Gibps for video along with peripherals and power through a single cable is what people who actually care about technology had hoped for decades would eventually come to fruition.
Maybe the majority don't need it, but the idea that the majority need 4 thunderbolt ports is equally bizarre.
1) Maybe? You really don't know if the majority of people need to connect to a TV via HDMI? Now you're just having a laugh. And wired projectors are outmoded. Do you think that's what Apple does, or do you think they have an Apple TV connected and then using AirPlay to connect using the built-in Conference Room option. I think the answer is
2) Since every port can be dozen or more different ports, including being able to switch your power to whatever size works best for a particular mobile set up, then 4 is about right. I'd prefer 6 but 2 would be too few for my needs.
Not sure how you can justify the passive agressive "thats on you" regarding replacing cables and devices, when you yourself are using old devices and a truckload of adaptors, exactly the same as I am. Like most people I don't readily appreciate having to pay to replace things that work fine just because Apple have decided that a Thunderbolt only future is easiest on them.
If you don't like 2019 then get an old Mac or use your old Mac. No one is forcing you to get the latest model and yet all you do is bitch when Apple updates something. Either buy it or move the fuck on, there's no reason to complain that a company chooses to make products that don't suit your needs. I'm sticking with my current MBP because the new one—as great it is—doesn't suit enough of my needs at the moment. That's as complex as it needs to be.
You you have basically shown you have no eff'n clue what you're talking about. Every single LCD projector I've seen for the last 5 years has had a VGA and a HDMI port in it. You know how many have had a USB C? Zero. Zilch. none. I'm sure some may be made, but they're not in any conference rooms I've been in, so this argument that USB C is being developed and is a viable alternative for this use is laughable. And to argue that USB is a standard for video?
No one ever said USB C wasn't being developed. Clearly you have trouble comprehending what you read.
If anyone's requirement to include a port is that a majority of users use it then the only port we would include is a power port. Are you arguing that the majority of users use 4 TB3 ports? No one here has ever said the majority of users use an HDMI port. They have said that a significant number have. the majority argument is simply a perversion and twisting of statements to suit your argument.
As for Apple TV -serously???? I have seen an Apple TV in a conference room once. And it has since been removed because it wasn't useful. Oh, and you know how it was hooked up to the video projector? With an HDMI cable. One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
You can say it wouldn't be useful to you, but to argue that HDMI is obsolete and unused, or that USB C is more useful for this use is beyond ignorant.
Wasn't HDMI dead for a decade or so?
Version 2.1 specs were finalized in 2017 supporting up to 8k video and up to 32 channel audio. I don't know the full history, but seems pretty alive.
HDMI is the standard for connecting a device to a monitor or television.
You're seeing a lot of MBPs hooked up to TVs are you? That's a world I don't want to live in. I still see a lot more projectors with VGA, so based on your stupid argument Apple should keep VGA in their Macs. If I was as selfish as you I'd be complaining that they don't include serial ports since that's the one thing I'd have to spend some money and considerable effort to get working on my MBP with an adapter and drivers.
There are alternatives available, but HDMI is the most ubiquitous standard out there...
No it's not. USB is and only in regards to physical port data protocol standards, which is exactly what you get with all those wonderful USB-C ports on Macs, Windows, iPads, and Android devices.
...and it's modern and in active development.
And USB-C isn't? Good one!
Apple include it on other current devices that they sell.
What other laptops include it? In the history of the Mac notebooks they've hardly ever included it. They used to include a bunch of dongle with Mac which was such a waste as we moved through a different video out port interface standard every couple years. Having TB3 which can do 40 Gibps for video along with peripherals and power through a single cable is what people who actually care about technology had hoped for decades would eventually come to fruition.
Maybe the majority don't need it, but the idea that the majority need 4 thunderbolt ports is equally bizarre.
1) Maybe? You really don't know if the majority of people need to connect to a TV via HDMI? Now you're just having a laugh. And wired projectors are outmoded. Do you think that's what Apple does, or do you think they have an Apple TV connected and then using AirPlay to connect using the built-in Conference Room option. I think the answer is
2) Since every port can be dozen or more different ports, including being able to switch your power to whatever size works best for a particular mobile set up, then 4 is about right. I'd prefer 6 but 2 would be too few for my needs.
Not sure how you can justify the passive agressive "thats on you" regarding replacing cables and devices, when you yourself are using old devices and a truckload of adaptors, exactly the same as I am. Like most people I don't readily appreciate having to pay to replace things that work fine just because Apple have decided that a Thunderbolt only future is easiest on them.
If you don't like 2019 then get an old Mac or use your old Mac. No one is forcing you to get the latest model and yet all you do is bitch when Apple updates something. Either buy it or move the fuck on, there's no reason to complain that a company chooses to make products that don't suit your needs. I'm sticking with my current MBP because the new one—as great it is—doesn't suit enough of my needs at the moment. That's as complex as it needs to be.
You you have basically shown you have no eff'n clue what you're talking about. Every single LCD projector I've seen for the last 5 years has had a VGA and a HDMI port in it. You know how many have had a USB C? Zero. Zilch. none. I'm sure some may be made, but they're not in any conference rooms I've been in, so this argument that USB C is being developed and is a viable alternative for this use is laughable. And to argue that USB is a standard for video?
No one ever said USB C wasn't being developed. Clearly you have trouble comprehending what you read.
If anyone's requirement to include a port is that a majority of users use it then the only port we would include is a power port. Are you arguing that the majority of users use 4 TB3 ports? No one here has ever said the majority of users use an HDMI port. They have said that a significant number have. the majority argument is simply a perversion and twisting of statements to suit your argument.
As for Apple TV -serously???? I have seen an Apple TV in a conference room once. And it has since been removed because it wasn't useful. Oh, and you know how it was hooked up to the video projector? With an HDMI cable. One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
You can say it wouldn't be useful to you, but to argue that HDMI is obsolete and unused, or that USB C is more useful for this use is beyond ignorant.
1) Reasonable solution: Use a VGA-to-USB-C cable or adapter if your projector requires that wired connection. Uneasonable solution: Complain that Apple doesn't include a VGA port on their Mac notebook.
2) If someone can't figure how to use AirPlay from a Mac to iDevice to an Apple TV then I feel sorry for them.
If someone can’t read I also feel sorry for them. - No one here has complained that a VGA port wasn’t included. - I can use AirPlay fine. The copy protection prevented its use forcing me to directly connect the computer.
It seems the only way you can counter an argument is to change it to suit your tastes.
1) VGA are still on more projectors than HDMI, so according to your silly agreement that should be also be included despite you not directly stating that.
2) I mention an Apple TV for a simple wireless way to connect any number of devices to a conference room for presentations, which you countered with an issue you once had HDCP as if that's a common occurrence with slideshows.
3) You keep bitching about something that is clearly not going to happen. What's your end game here? I could use a serial port because of all the older network equipment I have to connect to, but I you absolutely will not see me cry that Apple still doesn't include serial ports on their Macs.
1) VGA may technically be on more projectors, but is far inferior and incompatible with digital protocols. It also has to do with what is set up - as I and others have repeatedly stated, the vast majority of conference rooms are set up with HDMI connections; it is not just the defacto standard, it is the standard.
2) You suggested AppleTV as a replacement for HDMI. When I pointed out how there are no Apple TV in conference rooms outside of Cupertino and how it won't handle copyrighted video you implied it was because I was to ignorant to use Airplay. I readily agree that copyrighted video isn't a regular need in conference rooms, but that doesn't eliminate the other issues with AppleTV
3) What bothers me most is I and several others raised a very valid concern and a very common use for laptops. The response of you and many others was to distort the argument, throw up straw men, make false equivalences and claim people said stuff they never did.
"What bothers me most is I and several others raised a very valid concern and a very common use for laptops."
You're right brother. I'm all in on Apple stuff: Three Apple TVs, all iPhones in the family, more Macs than I can count, etc. I'm not some sort of troll, but please, a "Pro" machine should involve no compromises. Not having HDMI is a compromise. Some people believe spending $5K on a laptop should not include any compromises, and I agree.
It's not as if Apple never makes any mistakes. I remember years ago they took the Firewire interface out of the MacBook. People were up in arms; the next generation, Firewire came back. Remember the famed "butterfly" keyboard? It's history, because it sucked. We can love Apple but still wish for better. I think that's what comment forums are for.
Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.
Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.
Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.
Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".
At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment.
Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.
Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.
However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros" I mean ...... power users.
Apple Insider never fails to entertain. flame away......
ohhh.. there is one last thing:
Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses. Well at least for power users.
Well said. There's a certain cohort of people here that take it as a personal (even blasphemous) insult if anyone suggests that an Apple product is not absolutely perfect. Like society, many people here have a complete and utter inability to deal with nuance.
Well, there are some people here like that, just as there are people here who state that almost everything Apple does is bad or wrong. So they balance out.
but Apple sells 20 million computers a year. How many actually need some of these ports, or care that they’re gone, and don’t mind using an adapter or two, if required?
I’d bet that the vast majority either don’t need them, or don’t care that the physical port is different, thereby needing an adapter. Yup, there are thousands of people giving presentations that may need them. I’ll even grant possibly tens of thousands. Still, an infinitesimal percentage. Yup, those people may get ticked. No doubt.
I think the problem is that Apple didn't made a transition to USB-C for their notebooks. They just removed USB-A from the MBP without allowing time for users to replace their USB-A devices. Don't you think that would have been better to have two USB-A and two USB-C port in the MBP 2016 - early 2019 models and move to full USB-C in the late 2019 - 2020 models? I think users would had appreciated that. They even didn't made the move to full USB-C in their desktops. Another example is Lenovo. Thinkpads have both, USB-A and USB-C ports, without any issues, and in the future I expect all models move to full USB-C. But as today, there are too many USB-A devices in customers hands.
I really don’t agree. People have to get over their hatred of adapters. I’d rather have all modern ports r\than modern and older ports. If there was no backwards portability, I’d agree with you in a heartbeat. But there is. So no, I don’t agree. PCs carry obsolete standards forwards well after nobody cares about them. I think that makes no sense, and holds everybody back. Manufacturers of peripherals will just avoid redesigning equipment if they know old ports will remain around. We’ve seen this over the years. You have to force the issue, and Apple is doing the right thing here. There are other laptops with just USB C ports. Apple isn’t the only one. I’ll bet that in two years fewer computers will have these old ports.
First of all, PC's are not the only who has USB-A ports. As today, Apple still includes USB-A in the Mac Mini , iMac / iMac Pro, and the latest Mac Pro. Even most of their mobile devices include USB-A cables.
Second, I'm not against going forward with technology. But I see no problems with a device like the Thinkpad P1, that has USB-A and USB-C, giving you time to transition your devices at your pace. At some point everyone is going to move to the latest technology, including USB-C. But IMO, the decision should be made by users and customers, not Apple. Even Apple have made the move yet for most of their devices. Have you consider why?
The decision is always going to be made by manufacturers. Don’t get into the myth that customers decide these issues, because they don’t. A manufacturer wants to cut costs, and simplify. One does it first, and others follow. Somebody has to do it. Apple is usually first, and others laugh and complain, but then a couple of years later, everyone else has done it too.
they haven’t done it yet for Desktop machines, because this are far more likely to be used with peripherals, that are older than with notebooks, notebooks also have less space. Don’t be surprised if Apple removes most of those ports in a couple of years.
If you read carefully, I said that customers "should" decide, not that they make the final decision.
Second, Apple being first on removing ports from their notebooks created a mixed message. If USB-C is what everyone should be using, why kept them in their desktops? You said that is because of peripherals, but isn't those the peripherals users are asking to use in their MBP's? You also said that is because space, but there are similar devices, as the Thinkpad P1, that have USB-C, USB-A and even SD cards. What is interesting is that MBP's users, the one that requiere mobility, need to add adapters and dongles to connect their devices. At the same time, users with Apple desktops have no issues connecting their USB-A device, even though they have desk space to add adapters, dockings and dongles. Apple message on USB-C is very confusing. It would have been easier is they had added one or two USB-A ports, don't you think?
At some point Apple will remove the USB-A port from their desktops, the same way Lenovo and every manufacturer will remove them from their devices, but not because Apple said so. It just technology and customers moving forward.
Customers decide whether they will buy a product, but manufacturers decide on the feature set. When Sheller announced the removal of the SD slot because few customers used it, I expected that to be 5%. When he said 20%, I was surprised they would drop a feature that 20% used. But it didn’t hurt sales at all, with sales up, not down.
Comments
Second, I'm not against going forward with technology. But I see no problems with a device like the Thinkpad P1, that has USB-A and USB-C, giving you time to transition your devices at your pace. At some point everyone is going to move to the latest technology, including USB-C. But IMO, the decision should be made by users and customers, not Apple. Even Apple have made the move yet for most of their devices. Have you consider why?
I'm not asking for every port. I have Firewire drives somewhere, I don't ask for a port for that. I don't care that Ethernet is missing. I don't care that there's no CD drive. I don't care that there's a nonremovable battery. Plenty of people still use SD. Pretty much every camera uses SD. If it's barely used, why leave it on the latest iMacs? I use the SD card 100x more than I use the camera on my Macbook, but I'm not calling for that to be removed because I don't use it. Guys like you can only see a very small circle around you, where everyone has Macs, everyone has the latest hardware, everyone has the cash to upgrade everything, and where apparently SD has managed to morph into a fragmented mess. In the real world, that's not the case.
No one ever said USB C wasn't being developed. Clearly you have trouble comprehending what you read.
If anyone's requirement to include a port is that a majority of users use it then the only port we would include is a power port. Are you arguing that the majority of users use 4 TB3 ports? No one here has ever said the majority of users use an HDMI port. They have said that a significant number have. the majority argument is simply a perversion and twisting of statements to suit your argument.
As for Apple TV -serously???? I have seen an Apple TV in a conference room once. And it has since been removed because it wasn't useful. Oh, and you know how it was hooked up to the video projector? With an HDMI cable. One other thing - I tried playing an iTunes movie from my laptop to an Apple TV and it wouldn't let me because of copy protections. I had to connect my laptop directly to the TV - via HDMI.
You can say it wouldn't be useful to you, but to argue that HDMI is obsolete and unused, or that USB C is more useful for this use is beyond ignorant.
Uneasonable solution: Complain that Apple doesn't include a VGA port on their Mac notebook.
2) If someone can't figure how to use AirPlay from a Mac to iDevice to an Apple TV then I feel sorry for them.
Excellent point. And for the photographers out there, there's this:
It takes SD, SDXC, MicroSD and CF cards. $16 or something...
With these two dongles/adapters I think the majority of users will be covered. Unless there are still folks out there needing DB-25 DTE¡
- No one here has complained that a VGA port wasn’t included.
- I can use AirPlay fine. The copy protection prevented its use forcing me to directly connect the computer.
It seems the only way you can counter an argument is to change it to suit your tastes.
2) I mention an Apple TV for a simple wireless way to connect any number of devices to a conference room for presentations, which you countered with an issue you once had HDCP as if that's a common occurrence with slideshows.
3) You keep bitching about something that is clearly not going to happen. What's your end game here? I could use a serial port because of all the older network equipment I have to connect to, but I you absolutely will not see me cry that Apple still doesn't include serial ports on their Macs.
they haven’t done it yet for Desktop machines, because this are far more likely to be used with peripherals, that are older than with notebooks, notebooks also have less space. Don’t be surprised if Apple removes most of those ports in a couple of years.
Try a CF express card Mr. genius.
Second, Apple being first on removing ports from their notebooks created a mixed message. If USB-C is what everyone should be using, why kept them in their desktops? You said that is because of peripherals, but isn't those the peripherals users are asking to use in their MBP's? You also said that is because space, but there are similar devices, as the Thinkpad P1, that have USB-C, USB-A and even SD cards. What is interesting is that MBP's users, the one that requiere mobility, need to add adapters and dongles to connect their devices. At the same time, users with Apple desktops have no issues connecting their USB-A device, even though they have desk space to add adapters, dockings and dongles. Apple message on USB-C is very confusing. It would have been easier is they had added one or two USB-A ports, don't you think?
At some point Apple will remove the USB-A port from their desktops, the same way Lenovo and every manufacturer will remove them from their devices, but not because Apple said so. It just technology and customers moving forward.
Soli said: 1) VGA may technically be on more projectors, but is far inferior and incompatible with digital protocols. It also has to do with what is set up - as I and others have repeatedly stated, the vast majority of conference rooms are set up with HDMI connections; it is not just the defacto standard, it is the standard.
2) You suggested AppleTV as a replacement for HDMI. When I pointed out how there are no Apple TV in conference rooms outside of Cupertino and how it won't handle copyrighted video you implied it was because I was to ignorant to use Airplay. I readily agree that copyrighted video isn't a regular need in conference rooms, but that doesn't eliminate the other issues with AppleTV
3) What bothers me most is I and several others raised a very valid concern and a very common use for laptops. The response of you and many others was to distort the argument, throw up straw men, make false equivalences and claim people said stuff they never did.
You're right brother. I'm all in on Apple stuff: Three Apple TVs, all iPhones in the family, more Macs than I can count, etc. I'm not some sort of troll, but please, a "Pro" machine should involve no compromises. Not having HDMI is a compromise. Some people believe spending $5K on a laptop should not include any compromises, and I agree.
It's not as if Apple never makes any mistakes. I remember years ago they took the Firewire interface out of the MacBook. People were up in arms; the next generation, Firewire came back. Remember the famed "butterfly" keyboard? It's history, because it sucked. We can love Apple but still wish for better. I think that's what comment forums are for.
this model will be very popular.