Apple's new 16-inch MacBook Pro is built to blaze through pro workflows

16791112

Comments

  • Reply 161 of 236

    Are there people who won't buy this machine, say for a daughter going to college, because it does NOT have an HDMI port? Yes.
    You're gonna send your daughter to college with a PC because of an HDMI port? What kind of monster are you? I'm calling CPS.
    Well, they won’t be sending her with a flagship Dell XPS 13, because it doesn’t have HDMI either.

    Or rather, to be precise, it (and all MacBooks) does have HDMI, just without a legacy connector.

    Dell makes a semi-big deal about the XPS 15 having an array of these legacy ports that have been absorbed into USB-C and Thunderbolt 3. To the point where you have to wonder if most of the legacy-port diehards in this thread are marketers. 
    edited November 2019 fastasleeppscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 162 of 236
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member

    Are there people who won't buy this machine, say for a daughter going to college, because it does NOT have an HDMI port? Yes.
    You're gonna send your daughter to college with a PC because of an HDMI port? What kind of monster are you? I'm calling CPS.
    Well, they won’t be sending her with a flagship Dell XPS 13, because it doesn’t have HDMI either.

    Or rather, to be precise, it (and all MacBooks) does have HDMI, just without a legacy connector.

    Dell makes a semi-big deal about the XPS 15 having an array of these legacy ports that have been absorbed into USB-C and Thunderbolt 3. To the point where you have to wonder if most of the legacy-port diehards in this thread are marketers. 
    I think the Dell XPS is a consumer flagship notebook.  If we made a comparison, maybe the Thinkpad P1 is more similar to the Macbook Pro.  And this model has SD Card reader, USA-A, USB-C and HDMI.  For me, USB-C is more than enough.  But it's clear there is a group of people that needs more than USB-C.
    MplsP
  • Reply 163 of 236
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    StrangeDayspscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 164 of 236
    croprcropr Posts: 1,114member
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    A corporate office environment is full of meeting rooms with a big screen, and these big screens are used all day. For one reason or another, HDMI is the preferred method to connect to that meeting room screen. Even for huge Apple clients: 3 weeks ago I made a presentation in an IBM building and guess what: 3 of my IBM guests has a Lenovo PC without dongles and 2 had a Macbook Pro with a USB-C to HDMI dongle.  So don't deny the fact that there are millions and millions of meeting rooms where HDMI is the only way to connect to the meeting room screen,whether we like it or not.   And this is not going change very quickly because the suppliers of these big screens like Samsung, Philips and Sony prefer to include HDMI connectors in their screens.

    Assuming that the most people do not present, because it does not fit your usage pattern, is very shortsighted
    edited November 2019 elijahgMplsPmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 165 of 236
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    Rather liberal use of "most" and "many" to suit your purposes there.  I doubt you have any more insight into what "most" users need in terms of ports than anyone else.

    Myself, I like that the MacBooks have Thunderbolt, it's very useful.  But I've never needed to have anything plugged into more than two of them, and quite often one of them is hooked up to an adaptor for HDMI and/or USB-A (the latter to charge my Apply Watch becuase that's the cable it came with when I bought it just a little while ago).  Given the sluggish uptake of USB-C, I doubt that many people have need of four of identical ports,.  So my preferred scenario would be a MBP with two Thunderbolt ports, one or two USB-A ports and an HDMI (and MagSafe power if it's a wishlist, but I'm trying to be realistic).    That seems to cover most bases.

    The only cause for pause I'd have is that there don't seem to be (m)any USB-C hubs that split one to many USB-C ports.  So if USB-C does take off, then only having two ports could end up being limiting.  But given the aforementioned slow upotake, that's not a great concern right now.
    edited November 2019 elijahgMplsP
  • Reply 166 of 236
    aknabiaknabi Posts: 211member
    This is a solid iteration and brings the MBP in line with what it is supposed to be... finally by 3 year nightmare of the butterfly keyboard can be over (ordered a new max'd out 16 instantly).

    The main complaint I'd have still is that I think they could have pushed the bezels more (and if needed gone a smidge bigger on the case) and gone for a full +1" on the update... of course at that point you can say they should make the 17" crowd happy and made a "true" Pro machine (though I think then you'd break all the cases/travel gear that can handle up to 15.4" which I assume can deal with the few extra mm from the 16).

    I've also always been annoyed by the "un-Apple" placement/visual look of the top screen half... the renders of the nMBP that had been coming out with the rounded corners were a far better ID... would have been nice to see Apple go back to that level of detail/polish... though would have added some cost... still that's not supposed to stop Apple from making the best possible device.

    Still wish that Apple would make a MBP TB3 Dock that "just works"... I have both the OWC USB-C and TB3 docks and though fine they both have issues (as do the other 6 USB-C mini-docks I have, including Apple's own :/)
  • Reply 167 of 236
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    I’m a college professor — an art historian — I give extended, nuanced, image-based “presentations” for a living. I used a laptop in the classroom for many years but in 2017 I switched to an iPad Pro using a simple Apple Lightning to Digital AV adapter. Best $45 I’ve ever spent. I still use a 5K iMac to create them, but now I mostly use the iPad to present them. I’ve even used my iPhone when I don’t need to see my lecture notes. 

    I’m going to buy one of these machines along with a Pro Display XDR because (I can afford it and) color accuracy, brightness, and resolution matter as I work with the ever-expanding collection of tens of thousands of images of paintings in my files. I’m even getting the stand, because I work with a lot of vertical images and the ability to effortlessly shift the display orientation will change my life.

    You know what I’m NOT buying it for? To bring it into my classroom or to conferences. That’s so 2014!
    edited November 2019 StrangeDaysmelgrossfastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 168 of 236
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,753member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    These do look very nice, especially good that they seem to be putting some effort into having a decent GPU now. Shame it's not Nvidia, but still we can't expect Apple to get over their spat with Nvidia for at least 7 years. The keyboard change is really an admission that the butterfly mechanism was a bad design. If the third iteration was reliable, Apple wouldn't have changed back. I do think there is some psychology in that decision, but still.

    It does seem that as soon as the world starts to catch up to the connectors on Apple's current computers, they switch to something else. HDMI is becoming fairly ubiquitous, but now we need an adapter. HDMI is thin enough to fit on the Macbook, there is no reason to not include it. It's incredibly useful to be able to connect to devices without an adapter. No worries if you forget it, or don't know you're going to need it before you leave. I've replaced the presenting PC with my 13" 2015 MacBook several times when people have had issues, which wouldn't be possible without its built-in HDMI.
    sudden outbreak of common sense, maybe finally a decent keyboard again to replace the pieces of shit they put in over past years and a proper "esc" key is the right call ... excellent! its progress in the right direction but it looks like it still needs $100+ dollars of adapters to do anything useful.

    how hard is it to make a "pro" machine that does not need an adapter to plug into HDMI (essentially what is required by any presentation in business or education) .

    but non butterfly keyboard and a decent 'esc' key is already a good first step to get back to the formerly brilliant mac book pros.
    No adapter required. $18.

    That's still an adapter, it adapts from one format to another, just all in one cable.
    It is no more an adapter than a HDMI to HDMI cable is, or a HDMI to mini-HDMI. USB-C literally contains the HDMI spec.
    Adapter:
    • noun One that adapts, such as a device used to effect operative compatibility between different parts of one or more pieces of apparatus.
    It's an adapter. But in any case, the majority of projectors have HDMI, the majority of projectors plug directly into older Macbooks (and most PCs) with no adapter, and the cable is usually provided already. But with the USB-C Macs, you need an adapter. Oh sorry, I mean a special cable with two different ends to adapt the USB-C port.

    Many many business conference rooms with projectors have HDMI wired into the wall. None have USB-C. Good luck finding a USB C TV or a non-portable USB C projector too. Yes I'm sure they'll come, but forcing this incompatibility on users is annoying, when having both would provide a transition period. The industry is moving to USB-C, and will be all the better for it, but Apple making it harder to use their Macs won't speed up the industry. It'd be like saying EVs are here, need to stop all petrol production tomorrow. It's never anywhere near as fast as Apple likes to think it is in their Silicon Valley bubble.
    I’m certainly not an Apple Engineer, so I could be wrong on this opinion, which may or may not be factual...

    There are many ports that could still fit on the chassis of the MacBook Pro, including HDMI. However each port they add requires a circuit path on the motherboard, and sometimes may also require an additional chip for signal/data processing back to the CPU or GPU.

    Sticking with four Thunderbolt ports simplifies the motherboard design. The smaller the motherboard, the more space there is for batteries inside the chasis. Smaller/simpler motherboards will also draw less power, which again improves battery life. The fewer the chips that Apple can place on the board results in efficiency gains.
    Yes it makes the motherboard design marginally cheaper, but Thunderbolt already contains everything necessary to push HDMI signals, so there's no need to add a transceiver chip for HDMI compatibility. All it needs is the port itself, which makes it all the more stupid that they didn't include it.

    People probably won't choose not to buy the Macbook because it has no HDMI port. But when you add that to not having an SD card reader, not having Magsafe, not having USB-A ports, people may think "actually, I can get a PC that's got all those ports and is $500 less, and I've not got to spend $100 on adapters. I'll do that."
  • Reply 169 of 236
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,891member
    melgross said:
    I would put the port argument this way:

    Is there a single person in the entire world who would NOT buy this new machine if it had one HDMI and one legacy USB port in addition to the four TB3 ports? Even if the machine had a slight taper at the rear to accommodate the additional port thickness? I say no.

    Are there people who won't buy this machine, say for a daughter going to college, because it does NOT have an HDMI port? Yes.

    Sometimes Apple succeeds in spite of itself. 
    That makes no sense. Nobody isn’t going to buy this machine because it doesn’t have an hdmi port. And nobody isn’t going to buy it because of a usb A port either. That’s just silly.
    Actually, my daughter wouldn't. Unlike people on this site, she doesn't worship the ground Steve Jobs walked on. All she cares about is if the machine will meet her needs. People here can rail about "POS Dell/HP/Lenovo/??? windows laptops, but I've had plenty of people ask my why my expensive MBP requires an adapter for everything. I can explain to them about the bandwidth of the TB3/USB C outlet and how you can buy an adapter to do what you need to. You know what response I get? "My $900 HP can do all that and I don't need any adapters." For the record, I far prefer Macs. I think they are better quality machines (my current keyboard excepted) and MacOS is better than windows, but this reminds me of one of the 'get a Mac' commercials when Vista came out and the PC started saying "ask not what windows can do for you, but what you can buy for windows." 

    I'm using all four of my TB3 ports right now. I have never once in my life owned a Mac with an HDMI port (skipped that generation of MBP), nor have I needed one.


    Good for you. There are far more people in the world that would use an HDMI port than all 4 TB3 ports. You should obviously carry a keychain USB C hub in your pocket everywhere you go.

    MplsP said:
    MplsP said:
    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    This. HDMI is THE standard when it comes to video connections for presentations. It’s simple and nearly universal. I have yet to see a video projector in a conference room that doesn’t have it and beyond that, none of these projectors can do 4K, so being able to connect 100 monitors via the thunderbolt 10 port is a completely moot point. My daughter needed a new laptop for college and her first question was “does it have an HDMI port, ‘cause that’s what I need to do presentations”

    Now all of the Apple sycophants will go on and on about ‘just buy an adapter’ and ‘be prepared’ and how it’s obviously your fault for not having the right equipment with, and I assume that none of these people have ever forgotten anything or had an adapter break or have someone borrow it and not return it, etc. Nor have they had an adapter not work properly. The fact of the matter is, rather than have a couple of the most common ports available to people, Apple made a decision that ‘we can make USB C do everything’ and, user convenience be damned, they can go out and buy all the ports cables and docks and hubs. 

    As for “cables vs adapters” - that’s a completely semantic argument and ignores the point.
    How absurd. Nope, that’s not being a sycophant, that’s just using common sense. Not so common, I guess...

    Just because you have a specialized use case is absolutely no reason to start packing in single-use ports on every single machine for the vast majority of people who don’t need them. Your problem isn’t a difficult one to solve. At all. Remotely. 

    And no, the difference of cables and adapters isn’t semantic. The whiners are acting and pretending like they will need to carry adapters for all use case at all times, when really for most people most of the time a simple cable will remain in place. For edge cases, use an adapter. Problem solved. 
    SUre, if giving a presentation in a conference room is a ‘specialized use case’ for you. For much of the world, it’s THE use case.

    It’s also ironic how you blast people for whining about having to carry adapters with just after you blast them for not being prepared when they don’t have all their adapters with. I guess you’ve never had anything happen that you didn’t expect? Here’s one - I had my laptop at a meeting at work. A coworker pulled out his USB stick (with the ‘obsolete’ USB A connector. I couldn’t do a thing other than try to explain why my ‘state of the art’ laptop failed to have the single most common connector in technology.
    It absolutely is a special use case, as a pro-MB it’s a beefier machine for doing work primarily, as any notebook can play back slides. I’m a software developer, which is the most common pro customer per Craig. I want a thin, light machine to code, render, and compile on. I don’t want single-purpose ports I don’t need just to make your job easier. 

    Again, whining about not being prepared to do your job doesn’t make any sense. Carry the tools you need. It really isn’t as difficult as you think. Multipurpose ports that can readily adopt the use case of single-purpose ports are more flexible for more people. EOS. 
    Yeah, whatever. Maybe giving presentations is 'special use' in your fantasy 'nobody-could-ever-need-to-do-anything-else-but-what-I-or-Steve Jobs-think-they-need to-do" world, but not for many people. Or maybe I'm supposed to get a MBP to do 'work' and have another laptop to playback slides? It always amazes me how the only thing you can see is your perspective; my 19 year old as a broader view than you do. You don't need a HDIM port but someone else might. You clearly need four high bandwidth TB3 USB C ports but many/most people don't. Since using adapters and hubs is clearly never an issue, there shouldn't be anything wrong with including something like a USB A port or HDMI port and expecting other people to use a USB C hub. I don't want ports that always require me to carry extra adapters with me just to make your life easier.

    As for the 'this is a pro machine, pros don't need that' argument - I have 2 responses. First, pros need tools that help them do their job, not give them extra. things to worry about. Second, since ostensibly non-pros would be using the 13" model, does that have it? Oops, nope. 
    edited November 2019 elijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 170 of 236
    I think Apple should have just put one TB3 port on the machine. Those with "special use cases" who need more than one port can simply carry around a TB3 hub. No big deal. 
    elijahg
  • Reply 171 of 236
    cropr said:
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    A corporate office environment is full of meeting rooms with a big screen, and these big screens are used all day. For one reason or another, HDMI is the preferred method to connect to that meeting room screen. Even for huge Apple clients: 3 weeks ago I made a presentation in an IBM building and guess what: 3 of my IBM guests has a Lenovo PC without dongles and 2 had a Macbook Pro with a USB-C to HDMI dongle.  So don't deny the fact that there are millions and millions of meeting rooms where HDMI is the only way to connect to the meeting room screen,whether we like it or not.   And this is not going change very quickly because the suppliers of these big screens like Samsung, Philips and Sony prefer to include HDMI connectors in their screens.

    Assuming that the most people do not present, because it does not fit your usage pattern, is very shortsighted
    Needing HDMI ports for presentations is still a special use case -- most MB customers never need to do this. So again, it makes less sense to add a single-purpose port, possibly at the expense of other compromises (loss of TB3 port, etc), when the simpler solution is for those using their powerful pro notebook to do slideshows to use a specific cable, or, in an even more special use case ("But mah projector is on the ceiling!") to use an adapter. 

    The question is not "Was it possible?" (of course it was), the question is, "What makes the most sense for the most people?" The answer is clear and has been spelled out by Schiller -- flexibility.
    edited November 2019 fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 172 of 236

    crowley said:
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    Rather liberal use of "most" and "many" to suit your purposes there.  I doubt you have any more insight into what "most" users need in terms of ports than anyone else.
    Apple surely does. I'd bet dollars to donuts the have good reason to believe most of their customers aren't trying to connect their expensive MBPs to ceiling-mounted projectors and know most of them are more likely going to use all the TB3 ports instead.
    fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 173 of 236

    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    These do look very nice, especially good that they seem to be putting some effort into having a decent GPU now. Shame it's not Nvidia, but still we can't expect Apple to get over their spat with Nvidia for at least 7 years. The keyboard change is really an admission that the butterfly mechanism was a bad design. If the third iteration was reliable, Apple wouldn't have changed back. I do think there is some psychology in that decision, but still.

    It does seem that as soon as the world starts to catch up to the connectors on Apple's current computers, they switch to something else. HDMI is becoming fairly ubiquitous, but now we need an adapter. HDMI is thin enough to fit on the Macbook, there is no reason to not include it. It's incredibly useful to be able to connect to devices without an adapter. No worries if you forget it, or don't know you're going to need it before you leave. I've replaced the presenting PC with my 13" 2015 MacBook several times when people have had issues, which wouldn't be possible without its built-in HDMI.
    sudden outbreak of common sense, maybe finally a decent keyboard again to replace the pieces of shit they put in over past years and a proper "esc" key is the right call ... excellent! its progress in the right direction but it looks like it still needs $100+ dollars of adapters to do anything useful.

    how hard is it to make a "pro" machine that does not need an adapter to plug into HDMI (essentially what is required by any presentation in business or education) .

    but non butterfly keyboard and a decent 'esc' key is already a good first step to get back to the formerly brilliant mac book pros.
    No adapter required. $18.

    That's still an adapter, it adapts from one format to another, just all in one cable.
    It is no more an adapter than a HDMI to HDMI cable is, or a HDMI to mini-HDMI. USB-C literally contains the HDMI spec.
    Adapter:
    • noun One that adapts, such as a device used to effect operative compatibility between different parts of one or more pieces of apparatus.
    It's an adapter. But in any case, the majority of projectors have HDMI, the majority of projectors plug directly into older Macbooks (and most PCs) with no adapter, and the cable is usually provided already. But with the USB-C Macs, you need an adapter. Oh sorry, I mean a special cable with two different ends to adapt the USB-C port.

    Many many business conference rooms with projectors have HDMI wired into the wall. None have USB-C. Good luck finding a USB C TV or a non-portable USB C projector too. Yes I'm sure they'll come, but forcing this incompatibility on users is annoying, when having both would provide a transition period. The industry is moving to USB-C, and will be all the better for it, but Apple making it harder to use their Macs won't speed up the industry. It'd be like saying EVs are here, need to stop all petrol production tomorrow. It's never anywhere near as fast as Apple likes to think it is in their Silicon Valley bubble.
    I’m certainly not an Apple Engineer, so I could be wrong on this opinion, which may or may not be factual...

    There are many ports that could still fit on the chassis of the MacBook Pro, including HDMI. However each port they add requires a circuit path on the motherboard, and sometimes may also require an additional chip for signal/data processing back to the CPU or GPU.

    Sticking with four Thunderbolt ports simplifies the motherboard design. The smaller the motherboard, the more space there is for batteries inside the chasis. Smaller/simpler motherboards will also draw less power, which again improves battery life. The fewer the chips that Apple can place on the board results in efficiency gains.
    Yes it makes the motherboard design marginally cheaper, but Thunderbolt already contains everything necessary to push HDMI signals, so there's no need to add a transceiver chip for HDMI compatibility. All it needs is the port itself, which makes it all the more stupid that they didn't include it.

    People probably won't choose not to buy the Macbook because it has no HDMI port. But when you add that to not having an SD card reader, not having Magsafe, not having USB-A ports, people may think "actually, I can get a PC that's got all those ports and is $500 less, and I've not got to spend $100 on adapters. I'll do that."
    Absurd. SD is a consumer memory card format; it's absolutely useless to those of us using beefier CF -- so why in hell should they add controllers and space dedicated to your personal preference? Or mine? Errrnnnt. Nope. No single-purpose junk, get the gear you need for your use case.

    I need Magsafe on my dev notebook as much as I need it on my iPad. No whining there, amazingly.
    edited November 2019 Solifastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 174 of 236

    MplsP said:
    melgross said:
    I would put the port argument this way:

    Is there a single person in the entire world who would NOT buy this new machine if it had one HDMI and one legacy USB port in addition to the four TB3 ports? Even if the machine had a slight taper at the rear to accommodate the additional port thickness? I say no.

    Are there people who won't buy this machine, say for a daughter going to college, because it does NOT have an HDMI port? Yes.

    Sometimes Apple succeeds in spite of itself. 
    That makes no sense. Nobody isn’t going to buy this machine because it doesn’t have an hdmi port. And nobody isn’t going to buy it because of a usb A port either. That’s just silly.
    Actually, my daughter wouldn't. Unlike people on this site, she doesn't worship the ground Steve Jobs walked on. All she cares about is if the machine will meet her needs. People here can rail about "POS Dell/HP/Lenovo/??? windows laptops, but I've had plenty of people ask my why my expensive MBP requires an adapter for everything. I can explain to them about the bandwidth of the TB3/USB C outlet and how you can buy an adapter to do what you need to. You know what response I get? "My $900 HP can do all that and I don't need any adapters." For the record, I far prefer Macs. I think they are better quality machines (my current keyboard excepted) and MacOS is better than windows, but this reminds me of one of the 'get a Mac' commercials when Vista came out and the PC started saying "ask not what windows can do for you, but what you can buy for windows." 

    I'm using all four of my TB3 ports right now. I have never once in my life owned a Mac with an HDMI port (skipped that generation of MBP), nor have I needed one.


    Good for you. There are far more people in the world that would use an HDMI port than all 4 TB3 ports. You should obviously carry a keychain USB C hub in your pocket everywhere you go.

    MplsP said:
    MplsP said:
    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    This. HDMI is THE standard when it comes to video connections for presentations. It’s simple and nearly universal. I have yet to see a video projector in a conference room that doesn’t have it and beyond that, none of these projectors can do 4K, so being able to connect 100 monitors via the thunderbolt 10 port is a completely moot point. My daughter needed a new laptop for college and her first question was “does it have an HDMI port, ‘cause that’s what I need to do presentations”

    Now all of the Apple sycophants will go on and on about ‘just buy an adapter’ and ‘be prepared’ and how it’s obviously your fault for not having the right equipment with, and I assume that none of these people have ever forgotten anything or had an adapter break or have someone borrow it and not return it, etc. Nor have they had an adapter not work properly. The fact of the matter is, rather than have a couple of the most common ports available to people, Apple made a decision that ‘we can make USB C do everything’ and, user convenience be damned, they can go out and buy all the ports cables and docks and hubs. 

    As for “cables vs adapters” - that’s a completely semantic argument and ignores the point.
    How absurd. Nope, that’s not being a sycophant, that’s just using common sense. Not so common, I guess...

    Just because you have a specialized use case is absolutely no reason to start packing in single-use ports on every single machine for the vast majority of people who don’t need them. Your problem isn’t a difficult one to solve. At all. Remotely. 

    And no, the difference of cables and adapters isn’t semantic. The whiners are acting and pretending like they will need to carry adapters for all use case at all times, when really for most people most of the time a simple cable will remain in place. For edge cases, use an adapter. Problem solved. 
    SUre, if giving a presentation in a conference room is a ‘specialized use case’ for you. For much of the world, it’s THE use case.

    It’s also ironic how you blast people for whining about having to carry adapters with just after you blast them for not being prepared when they don’t have all their adapters with. I guess you’ve never had anything happen that you didn’t expect? Here’s one - I had my laptop at a meeting at work. A coworker pulled out his USB stick (with the ‘obsolete’ USB A connector. I couldn’t do a thing other than try to explain why my ‘state of the art’ laptop failed to have the single most common connector in technology.
    It absolutely is a special use case, as a pro-MB it’s a beefier machine for doing work primarily, as any notebook can play back slides. I’m a software developer, which is the most common pro customer per Craig. I want a thin, light machine to code, render, and compile on. I don’t want single-purpose ports I don’t need just to make your job easier. 

    Again, whining about not being prepared to do your job doesn’t make any sense. Carry the tools you need. It really isn’t as difficult as you think. Multipurpose ports that can readily adopt the use case of single-purpose ports are more flexible for more people. EOS. 
    Yeah, whatever. Maybe giving presentations is 'special use' in your fantasy 'nobody-could-ever-need-to-do-anything-else-but-what-I-or-Steve Jobs-think-they-need to-do" world, but not for many people. Or maybe I'm supposed to get a MBP to do 'work' and have another laptop to playback slides? It always amazes me how the only thing you can see is your perspective; my 19 year old as a broader view than you do. You don't need a HDIM port but someone else might. You clearly need four high bandwidth TB3 USB C ports but many/most people don't. Since using adapters and hubs is clearly never an issue, there shouldn't be anything wrong with including something like a USB A port or HDMI port and expecting other people to use a USB C hub. I don't want ports that always require me to carry extra adapters with me just to make your life easier.
    It's hardly a fantasy world -- I never said no one needs to play back slides on ceiling-mounted projects, what I said was it's not a primary use case. It's a special use case, and one the machine is completely flexible enough to enable you do to do. It's not difficult. It really isn't. You can be successful. But it's no reason to make every customer deal with compromises for your preference.

    LOL your 19-year-old. Yes, a parent's biased love for their kid is always a great argument on the internet.


    pscooter63fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 175 of 236
    I think Apple should have just put one TB3 port on the machine. Those with "special use cases" who need more than one port can simply carry around a TB3 hub. No big deal. 
    Nobody has claimed multi-purpose ports are a special use case. By definition, multi-use ports are not. By definition, single-purpose ports for ceiling-mounted projects is. 

    Try harder.
    edited November 2019 fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 176 of 236
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,508member
    s.metcalf said:
    blastdoor said:
    I’m really happy to see Apple paying attention to the needs of professionals!

    (to clarify — by “professionals” I mean people who use their Macs for paid work.)

    Except the SD card slot and optical audio didn’t come back.  The former is still widely used by professional photographers and I’m not sure how much space and cost Apple saved for the latter, but it can’t have been much; it’s something that some people really loved.  Apple cutting the ports seemed more about trying to push the adoption of USB+C, but I don’t think that was necessary because although it got off to a slow start it was the natural progression for USB anyway.

    So for me this new MacBook is a mixed blessing.  I like the bigger screen, slimmer bezels and improved battery and keyboard, but if those two former interfaces/ports returned it would’ve been perfect.
    In the interview the other day that’s been posted here too, Schiller made an excellent argument as to why the SD slot is unlikely to return.

    I'm a photographer as well. Over the past two decades we went from some cameras using “smart cards”, to compact Flash to SD. Which of those slots should Apple have supported, and for how long? The problem is that even with SD, we’ve seen major advancements. Newer SD cards don’t work in older SD slots, and older cards may, or may not work in newer ones. What about CF Express, and others? The fact is that having a slot is only good for a relatively short time. It’s got to accommodate a number of different generations of cards. It needs to have good  performance. There just isn’t any way to do that with a permanent slot, and technology.

    in the olde days, when laptops were 1.5 inches thick, you could have slide in openings where newer adapters could fit, and if the bus was able to, you could get improved performance. But nobody wants to go back to those days. I’m sure that a number of people who carry these around with them all day are even moaning at the small weight increase. Laptops have become much more portable than the 7 pound models we had a number of years ago, and those were a lot lighter than the much heavier ones before that. Nobody want to go back in time that way.

    so for best performance—for those who need the slot, a fast USB C or TB3 to SD card adapter is the ideal way to go. We can get a CF adapter for the greatest speed, and an older model for older, slower cards. They don’t cost all that much. And if you're a pro photographer, not only do you have thousands of dollars of computer equipment, but possibly many thousands in pro photo gear. And keep in mind that the bigger, faster CF Express cards can cost over $200 apiece! So that adapter means nothing in terms of cost. As far as carrying it with you, well, you’ve already got a number of memory cards, chargers, batteries, flashes, and,other cords for your camera equipment in something to carry them. Bringing another adapter isn’t an issue.
    tobybeaglephilboogiewatto_cobra
  • Reply 177 of 236
    Reading the thread I get the feeling that some commenters feel personally attacked by the idea that adding a HDMI port in 2019 would add utility to a pro class machine.

    Being of the opinion that a pro machine could be better and more practical if it offered the ability to connect with commonly available technology is not the same as hating on a machine. It is possible to see the improvements and positives of a machine, to like the machine, but at the same time to also want features that would make it even better in the current tech landscape within the context of a common use case.

    Yes, USB-C is the future, but HDMI / Ye Ole USB is still the present. On this point too, commenters have to jump to extremes lamenting that tech that is still in common use is kin to ancient tech; citing VGA (which ironically is usually the other option to connect projectors in fixed installations) and RS232 connections WTF?.

    Perhaps its the word "pro" that gets people all upset, as being "pro" is so on trend. I guess in today's terms the moniker is accurate most everyone uses a computer in some way to make $$$ and so is indeed pro. Power User would likely be a better fit for what used to termed "pro".

    At least in my experience power users tend to have the distinct need to both be on the cutting edge but also the need to easily interface with current commonly available technology especially if they operate in a IT environment. 

    Wanting a smooth transitioning phase between technologies is not the same as hating / being against new tech.

    Of course Apple is not alone in the "fuck em" make them buy a dongle / special cable strategy with some people rightly pointing to the Dell XPS.

    However, in the case of dell the XPS is "flag ship consumer" while there latitude7300 is "business" its close the same specs as the XPS but also with a mix of new and curren tech ports....... for "pros"   I mean ...... power users.

    Apple Insider never fails to entertain. :) flame away...... :)

    ohhh.. there is one last thing:

    Its possible to simultaneously own a Dell, Surface Pro, Mac Book Pro and custom rig. And to enjoy each one for its strength and to lament its weaknesses.  Well at least for power users.
    edited November 2019 elijahgMplsPphilboogiemuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 178 of 236
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,753member
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    These do look very nice, especially good that they seem to be putting some effort into having a decent GPU now. Shame it's not Nvidia, but still we can't expect Apple to get over their spat with Nvidia for at least 7 years. The keyboard change is really an admission that the butterfly mechanism was a bad design. If the third iteration was reliable, Apple wouldn't have changed back. I do think there is some psychology in that decision, but still.

    It does seem that as soon as the world starts to catch up to the connectors on Apple's current computers, they switch to something else. HDMI is becoming fairly ubiquitous, but now we need an adapter. HDMI is thin enough to fit on the Macbook, there is no reason to not include it. It's incredibly useful to be able to connect to devices without an adapter. No worries if you forget it, or don't know you're going to need it before you leave. I've replaced the presenting PC with my 13" 2015 MacBook several times when people have had issues, which wouldn't be possible without its built-in HDMI.
    sudden outbreak of common sense, maybe finally a decent keyboard again to replace the pieces of shit they put in over past years and a proper "esc" key is the right call ... excellent! its progress in the right direction but it looks like it still needs $100+ dollars of adapters to do anything useful.

    how hard is it to make a "pro" machine that does not need an adapter to plug into HDMI (essentially what is required by any presentation in business or education) .

    but non butterfly keyboard and a decent 'esc' key is already a good first step to get back to the formerly brilliant mac book pros.
    No adapter required. $18.

    That's still an adapter, it adapts from one format to another, just all in one cable.
    It is no more an adapter than a HDMI to HDMI cable is, or a HDMI to mini-HDMI. USB-C literally contains the HDMI spec.
    Adapter:
    • noun One that adapts, such as a device used to effect operative compatibility between different parts of one or more pieces of apparatus.
    It's an adapter. But in any case, the majority of projectors have HDMI, the majority of projectors plug directly into older Macbooks (and most PCs) with no adapter, and the cable is usually provided already. But with the USB-C Macs, you need an adapter. Oh sorry, I mean a special cable with two different ends to adapt the USB-C port.

    Many many business conference rooms with projectors have HDMI wired into the wall. None have USB-C. Good luck finding a USB C TV or a non-portable USB C projector too. Yes I'm sure they'll come, but forcing this incompatibility on users is annoying, when having both would provide a transition period. The industry is moving to USB-C, and will be all the better for it, but Apple making it harder to use their Macs won't speed up the industry. It'd be like saying EVs are here, need to stop all petrol production tomorrow. It's never anywhere near as fast as Apple likes to think it is in their Silicon Valley bubble.
    Okay, then a USB-A to USB-B peripheral cable or a USB-A to Lightning cable is an adapter then since it has two different ends, got it. And, by the definition, a USB-C to HDMI cable is not a "device used to effect operative compatibility" as it is a straight-through cable with no intermediate circuitry to make or translate the signal to something else.

    So, still no.

    Regardless, Apple still isn't going back. Instead of allocating two (or four) PCI-E channels to a port with one use, HDMI, it has chosen to use it for a port that can be used for anything. In my opinion, as one who gives presentations frequently, this is better.

    My original point was, you don't need to spend dollars on "ugly adapters" because there is no need to do so. There will always be, and have always been, cabling to get from point A to point C. 

    You may not like it, but Thunderbolt 3 is what they settled on for their portable Macs. If you want a small, light machine to give presentations on with HDMI, bring a Mac mini. It'll be cheaper than the MacBook Pro as a bonus.
    Yes, those are technically adapters. They adapt one port type to another. It doesn't need intermediate circuitry to be classified as an adapter, the definition states it need only enable compatibility between apparatus, and that is what a USB A to B cable does. A to A won't work with a printer for example. There are mains travel adapters that adapt one country's mains socket to another. Or are they not adapters because they're straight through wires inside?

    So actually yes. Whether you agree with the definition or not is irrelevant really, the definition is what it is.

    The lane allocation doesn't need to be static, the older MacBooks had more lanes assigned to the rear TB ports. 

    My original point was that the cost is largely irrelevant, it's the convenience of having the a widely used port already available. I never disputed that adapters exist, but it doesn't matter if they're free when you don't have it with you. 

    I like it a lot, I think TB is absolutely brilliant. The convenience of being able to use any USB-C device to charge the Macbook is great, the reversible plugs are great, the speed is great. The arrogance of Apple assuming everyone's going to switch to USB-C overnight is not great. Yeah I'll just cart a Mac Mini around everywhere rather than an adapter, that's a great solution to having no HDMI port 🙄
    MplsP
  • Reply 179 of 236
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member

    crowley said:
    cropr said:

    cropr said:
    No listing of all the ports and connectors? THAT is what separates a pro computer from the incapable POS’ we’ve been getting called MacBook Pro.

    UPDATE: Four Thunderbolt 3 ports. That’s all. Good lord... from their web site:

    ” MacBook Pro is equipped with four ports, so you can do all of that from either side. Existing devices are easily connected with a cable or adapter. And Thunderbolt 3 is reversible, so no matter how you plug in, it’s always right side up.”

    It’ll still be a massive shitpile of adapters on a regular desk. Hate this mentality of theirs. Is it really asking for too much to expect some actual USB, Ethernet or other kinds of ports to REDUCE the number of adapters?
    It has USB. USB-C is the latest iteration of USB. You don’t need adapters, you just need the proper cables for your devices. Do you understand that? Cables. Plenty of A-to-C cables. 

    Are you honestly asking for an ethernet port!?
    I give at lot of customer presentations and they all, without exception, give me a HDMI cable for the big screen in the meeting room.   So it is not the proper cable that is the issue but the proper port on my laptop.     And don't make me "educate" my customers. 
    Sounds like you have a special use case. Not typical for the typical pro customer, which Apple’s Craig has said is software development. So no harm in asking you to use an adapter to support your special use case of “presentations where I can’t use my own cable”. Good thing they exist, right? But still no reason to add single-use extra ports to every single customer for your specific use case. 
    There is nothing special about the use case of all my customers; it is the most common use case in a corporate environment.    Can I use an dongle? Of course,  but it is an unnecessary annoyance.

    For big screen in meeting rooms, Thunderbolt does not offer any technically advantage wrt HDMI.  They both can carry a 4K digital video signal at 60 Hz.

    What is a a special use case on the other hand, is people needing 4 Thunderbolt connections.   So a machine with 3 Thunderbold connections and 1 HDMI interface is much more practical
    Again, MOST PEOPLE do not do presentations or ever hook their MBP up to an HDMI cable, despite what your personal anecdotal experience is with regard to "all your customers". Do you run a Presentations 'R' Us? And again, do "all your customers" own a 2012-2015 Retina MacBook Pro? Because that's the only model of MacBook that's EVER had HDMI. None of them own an Air? Older MBP? The long-lived non-Retina MBP that sold until 2015? The 12" MacBook? I don't buy it.

    Losing a TB3 port to HDMI would be a signifiant downgrade for many users, including myself. I certainly don't need or have ever needed an HDMI port, however I have used up all four of my TB3 ports on many occasion over the last year.
    Rather liberal use of "most" and "many" to suit your purposes there.  I doubt you have any more insight into what "most" users need in terms of ports than anyone else.
    Apple surely does. I'd bet dollars to donuts the have good reason to believe most of their customers aren't trying to connect their expensive MBPs to ceiling-mounted projectors and know most of them are more likely going to use all the TB3 ports instead.
    I doubt they do tbh, or if they do they don't much care.  Apple are technologists and have form for pushing their ideal with little regard for their current customers. "Skate to where the puck will be" etc.  I wouldn't use Apple's products as a good barometer of what current customer usage is.
    MplsPmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 180 of 236
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,753member

    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    elijahg said:
    These do look very nice, especially good that they seem to be putting some effort into having a decent GPU now. Shame it's not Nvidia, but still we can't expect Apple to get over their spat with Nvidia for at least 7 years. The keyboard change is really an admission that the butterfly mechanism was a bad design. If the third iteration was reliable, Apple wouldn't have changed back. I do think there is some psychology in that decision, but still.

    It does seem that as soon as the world starts to catch up to the connectors on Apple's current computers, they switch to something else. HDMI is becoming fairly ubiquitous, but now we need an adapter. HDMI is thin enough to fit on the Macbook, there is no reason to not include it. It's incredibly useful to be able to connect to devices without an adapter. No worries if you forget it, or don't know you're going to need it before you leave. I've replaced the presenting PC with my 13" 2015 MacBook several times when people have had issues, which wouldn't be possible without its built-in HDMI.
    sudden outbreak of common sense, maybe finally a decent keyboard again to replace the pieces of shit they put in over past years and a proper "esc" key is the right call ... excellent! its progress in the right direction but it looks like it still needs $100+ dollars of adapters to do anything useful.

    how hard is it to make a "pro" machine that does not need an adapter to plug into HDMI (essentially what is required by any presentation in business or education) .

    but non butterfly keyboard and a decent 'esc' key is already a good first step to get back to the formerly brilliant mac book pros.
    No adapter required. $18.

    That's still an adapter, it adapts from one format to another, just all in one cable.
    It is no more an adapter than a HDMI to HDMI cable is, or a HDMI to mini-HDMI. USB-C literally contains the HDMI spec.
    Adapter:
    • noun One that adapts, such as a device used to effect operative compatibility between different parts of one or more pieces of apparatus.
    It's an adapter. But in any case, the majority of projectors have HDMI, the majority of projectors plug directly into older Macbooks (and most PCs) with no adapter, and the cable is usually provided already. But with the USB-C Macs, you need an adapter. Oh sorry, I mean a special cable with two different ends to adapt the USB-C port.

    Many many business conference rooms with projectors have HDMI wired into the wall. None have USB-C. Good luck finding a USB C TV or a non-portable USB C projector too. Yes I'm sure they'll come, but forcing this incompatibility on users is annoying, when having both would provide a transition period. The industry is moving to USB-C, and will be all the better for it, but Apple making it harder to use their Macs won't speed up the industry. It'd be like saying EVs are here, need to stop all petrol production tomorrow. It's never anywhere near as fast as Apple likes to think it is in their Silicon Valley bubble.
    I’m certainly not an Apple Engineer, so I could be wrong on this opinion, which may or may not be factual...

    There are many ports that could still fit on the chassis of the MacBook Pro, including HDMI. However each port they add requires a circuit path on the motherboard, and sometimes may also require an additional chip for signal/data processing back to the CPU or GPU.

    Sticking with four Thunderbolt ports simplifies the motherboard design. The smaller the motherboard, the more space there is for batteries inside the chasis. Smaller/simpler motherboards will also draw less power, which again improves battery life. The fewer the chips that Apple can place on the board results in efficiency gains.
    Yes it makes the motherboard design marginally cheaper, but Thunderbolt already contains everything necessary to push HDMI signals, so there's no need to add a transceiver chip for HDMI compatibility. All it needs is the port itself, which makes it all the more stupid that they didn't include it.

    People probably won't choose not to buy the Macbook because it has no HDMI port. But when you add that to not having an SD card reader, not having Magsafe, not having USB-A ports, people may think "actually, I can get a PC that's got all those ports and is $500 less, and I've not got to spend $100 on adapters. I'll do that."
    Absurd. SD is a consumer memory card format; it's absolutely useless to those of us using beefier CF -- so why in hell should they add controllers and space dedicated to your personal preference? Or mine? Errrnnnt. Nope. No single-purpose junk, get the gear you need for your use case.

    I need Magsafe on my dev notebook as much as I need it on my iPad. No whining there, amazingly.
    "Those of us" yes of course. Funny how you never, ever end up with the same problems as anyone else here isn't it? And then extrapolate that lack of issue to mean no one else has an issue except the person you're replying to? I'd wager you don't ever have any of these scenarios happen to you because you do a dull desk job all day, on a PC, with an old 2012 iMac at home that you use to make up stories that you can post on AI.
    MplsP
Sign In or Register to comment.