Apple's new 16-inch MacBook Pro reveals its future direction

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 78
    Radical re-design? Come on! The only thing radically re-designed is the pricing model.

    It looks the same as the last generation, features the same colors, same processor, still has the same 720 p camera, and inexplicably, still has the same Wifi 5 functionality, even though the iPhone has Wifi 6.

    Then you mention Apple's 'custom SSD' controller as if it's some massive innovation. It's no faster than a standard pcie-3.0 NVME controller... and it is slower than the latest pci-4.0 ones. macOS supports standard NVME, so there's no real reason to have a 'custom controller,' other than to ensure incompatibility with standard stock nvme drives on amazon, et. al. You know to lock people in to buying a more expensive option with more storage, rather than allow us to upgrade our SSD down the line. Then the GPU is underpowered relative to nVidia's models.

    However, besides the new keyboard, and I guess speakers, one area that Apple did seem to innovate is on cooling. Obviously they had to do this, given that previous macbooks suffered from throttling. But please, don't feed us this crap about this latest model being so much more innovative than the last generation. It's still missing several things.

     If anything, this generation just shows how greedy Apple was in how it priced the mid-2019 15 inch mbpro. The same base configuration on the 15 inch (RAM/Storage) was at least 400 more expensive than this model. Given the fact that processing power and Wifi functionality has remained the same (and graphics has increased), it's just a price cut really.  Which is a good thing.
    edited November 2019 avon b7muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 42 of 78
    ciacia Posts: 247member
    I'd bet a Coke that we will see upgraded FaceTime cameras in the MacBook Pro line tied to when they eventually add FaceID.
    edited November 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 78
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member

    Simple criticism

    To blogger critics who have never done anything apart from writing their opinions on a subject, the solutions are simplistic: stop making light and thin machines, go back to using a keyboard from 2015, and add more RAM! Also, be faster with less heat and don't spin those fans up! Physics are not a problem when you ignore them.

    Never has a more accurate paragraph been written. Way to go Mr. dilger!
    Dan_Dilgerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 78
    ireland said:
    sidedtech said:
    It says the new keyboard has 1mm depth. What's the depth of the 2015 models before they tried the terrible mechanism? 

    I want to buy it but not sure if it's the good keyboard or just a better one. 
    Marco's graph:


    Thanks for this excellent graph from Marco which puts the keyboard issue into perspective. The butterfly keyboard travel was ridiculously shallow. Typing on it felt like pounding my fingers on concrete. Thank goodness Apple has finally seen the light. 
    ireland
  • Reply 45 of 78
    entropys said:
    I would say there was a hiatus in MacBook updates too. And it has to have been some internal political reason for the long gaps between Mac updates that don’t reflect  parts availability. Other companies have had no trouble regularly updating their machines. The only computing tool that Apple has regularly updated for the last five years or so is the iPad. Like this iPad Pro I am typing on.

    anyway, my point was not updating some Mac models has nothing to do with the importance of the 15 inch MBP, which is what DED was implying.
    Apple did prioritize iPad development to own that new market, and its really important for the company that it did. iPad installed base is about 4x the Mac, unit sales are about 2x and revenues are about 80% of the Macs.

    Most Macs sold are notebooks. So yes, Apple has prioritized iPad and MacBook Pros and that's why they are both updated regularly while other models have grown a bit cold between refreshes. Apple is still organized like a startup. It's getting to the size where it can increasingly do more, and we are now seeing it do more, broadly, addressing niche but important markets like the high end desktop. 
    MacProwatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 78
    davgregdavgreg Posts: 1,036member
    Seems like a nice enough- but overpriced - laptop. But the future looks to be going more the direction of the iPad Pro.

    This morning's New York Times had an article called Steve Jobs Was Right: Smartphones and Tablets Killed The PC.
    https://nyti.ms/2q11kKf

    Now that Apple has forked iOS into iOS and iPadOS, I think we will see the evolution of the iPad Pro move quickly and eat up much of the market for the laptop computer. Adding the ability to access the files and external drives have greatly expanded the value of an iPad while still having far better portability and battery life. With time, I think this will become more apparent.

    I recently bought a MacBook Air and it will probably be the last laptop I will buy. As the iPad Pro and iPadOS continue to develop, there will be little need for both and the iPadPro is a better mobile device.

  • Reply 47 of 78
    Let's correct a bit of the Keyboard problem. The 2016 & 2017 had the most issues. The 2018 & 2919 are better for sure! They are still failing just the same. A lot of it has to do with different keys wearing out.

    Depending on what your game is you can kill the Shift key, Space or a collection of letters or numbers. As an example A, E, S & R are the ones I tend to use more. I wore out two 2016 and one 2017 at which point I gave up on the newer systems, bought a second 2015 and have not worn out keys just the keycaps!

    The biggest issue is the inability to service discreet key you need to replace the full keyboard. But even that is not possible! The full uppercase needs to be swapped out. So while we have four years of free coverage what happens then? A very expensive repair! Apple and all of the others need to alter their throw-away mentality! Most laptops today have no reason not to last six to eight years.
    avon b7MplsPirelandmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 48 of 78
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,911member
    MplsP said:
    I don’t get this whole thinness at all costs argument. Wasn’t the previous MBP roughly the same thickness as other laptops?
    There wasn't a ton of difference between them. I think what really started it all was the original MacBook Air. That was a game changer in terms of size and design and subsequent updates only improved on it in terms of power, battery life, etc. Now the MBA wasn't a 'pro' machine-  it had a lighter weight processor, lower resolution monitor, etc, but it was perfect for a large number of people. Beyond that, they managed to fit an excellent scissor keyboard in it.

    The 16" MBP looks like a good machine. As I've posted on other threads, I think Apple's being rather pig-headed with the USB C ports, but unfortunately I'm stuck living with that or getting a PC, and for me I'd rather live with it, even if I don't like it.

    The keyboard on my 2017 MBP has never truly failed, so it wouldn't be included in any statistics, but on a regular basis debris gets under the keys making them close to unusable. I've taken to sliding a piece of thick paper under the edge to dislodge whatever's stuck and so far have been lucky with that but it definitely compromises what is otherwise a good machine. We need to wait and see on the keyboard - hopefully it is more reliable and has a better feel. Even separating the keyboard so you can replace it without doing a complete overhaul would be nice.
    I guess I was specifically referring to the MBP with butterfly keyboard. People claim the issue with that laptop was Apple’s obsession with thinness. But wasn’t that laptop basically the same thickness as other laptops? I don’t remember it being radically thinner than other laptops on the market. I don’t think it can be proven that the issue with the butterfly keyboard (or its purpose) was in pursuit of radical thinness.
    Apple has definitely marketed the thickness (or thinness) of their laptop, both in terms of actual dimensions and visually. You can’t really take anything in isolation, especially with a laptop. They wanted to increase the battery life. That requires either reducing the consumption (and likely processing power) or increasing the battery. If they can shave a mm off the keyboard they have significantly increased the battery capacity. So while the keyboard alone was probably not what made the laptop thinner, the thinner keyboard allowed better specs at a given thickness. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 78
    It’s just beyond stupid not to have the most satisfying keyboard experience possible. That is the effing interface on a laptop. Look at the engineering involved in making AirPods hang just right in the human ear. At a few effing millimeters and make the touch irresistible. Nope. They shuck and jive and defend the errors of keyboardgate. Jony just had to have it thinner. Dumb. Shot sighted and dumb. Look at the 180 done on the Mac Pro. I expected the same initiative on the MBP. Screw it, I’m not dropping 3K on the 16”. I’ll buy a 2015 15 or 13” retina and keep on trucking. Total disappointment. Stop defending
    henrybaymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 50 of 78
    henrybay said:
    Quote: ‘To blogger critics who have never done anything apart from writing their opinions on a subject, the solutions are simplistic: stop making light and thin machines, go back to using a keyboard from 2015, and add more RAM! Also, be faster with less heat and don't spin those fans up!’

    It turns out that the solutions WERE quite simplistic - stop making such a thin and light machine, go back to using a scissor keyboard with a decent amount of travel, and add more power while addressing the heat issues.’

    It was Apple who complicated things by pursuing its silly ‘thin at all costs’ mantra which undermined a generation of Macbooks. Now, with the new MacBook Pro, they are back on track
    The new MBP is one piece of paper thicker than the 2016-2018. At the same time, it is thinner, smaller, and lighter than the 2012-2015 RMBP.
    What point are you making?

    It took them 4 years to follow the 2015 MacBook Pro with a version customers don't despise. Until yesterday, there hasn't been a MacBook Pro that anyone was really happy about for years.

    There is no spinning this.
    avon b7MplsPhenrybayentropys
  • Reply 51 of 78
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    sergioz said:
    I enjoyed this article tremendously. I agree with Daniel about keyboard fiasco that was overblown by bloggers, who know nothing about butterfly keyboards or even failure rate butterfly keyboards vs. scissor mechanism. It’s kind of sad to see that big company like Apple  has to take step back to go forward because of few pesky bloggers and YouTubers. 
    The failure of those keyboards was very real.     You don’t need to be a blogger to realize that.    As for Daniel he repeatedly, in his articles, twists things such that the truth isn’t represented anymore.   Apple introduced an absolutely terrible keyboard and got called out for it, that is what happened and is well documented.  
    MplsPhenrybaymuthuk_vanalingamphilboogieretrogusto
  • Reply 52 of 78
    wizard69 said:
    sergioz said:
    I enjoyed this article tremendously. I agree with Daniel about keyboard fiasco that was overblown by bloggers, who know nothing about butterfly keyboards or even failure rate butterfly keyboards vs. scissor mechanism. It’s kind of sad to see that big company like Apple  has to take step back to go forward because of few pesky bloggers and YouTubers. 
    The failure of those keyboards was very real.     You don’t need to be a blogger to realize that.    As for Daniel he repeatedly, in his articles, twists things such that the truth isn’t represented anymore.   Apple introduced an absolutely terrible keyboard and got called out for it, that is what happened and is well documented.  
    wizard69 said:
    sergioz said:
    I enjoyed this article tremendously. I agree with Daniel about keyboard fiasco that was overblown by bloggers, who know nothing about butterfly keyboards or even failure rate butterfly keyboards vs. scissor mechanism. It’s kind of sad to see that big company like Apple  has to take step back to go forward because of few pesky bloggers and YouTubers. 
    The failure of those keyboards was very real.     You don’t need to be a blogger to realize that.    As for Daniel he repeatedly, in his articles, twists things such that the truth isn’t represented anymore.   Apple introduced an absolutely terrible keyboard and got called out for it, that is what happened and is well documented.  
    Well said. Apple got called out for producing an atrociously bad keyboard. It wasn’t just the failure rate - the butterfly keyboard was horrible to type on. Flat, unresponsive and lacking any tactile feel. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 53 of 78
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    entropys said:
    I would say there was a hiatus in MacBook updates too. And it has to have been some internal political reason for the long gaps between Mac updates that don’t reflect  parts availability. Other companies have had no trouble regularly updating their machines. The only computing tool that Apple has regularly updated for the last five years or so is the iPad. Like this iPad Pro I am typing on.

    anyway, my point was not updating some Mac models has nothing to do with the importance of the 15 inch MBP, which is what DED was implying.
    The Mac line suffered from poor management.   I don’t think it is any more complex than that.  Even today they can’t adjust product lines to fill real needs.  

    A perfect example here is the Trash Can, it is a terrible solution for high end video / media developers.  However with a bit of tuning and a more reasonable price it could of served a wide array of professionals that don’t need the current configuration.  A trash can with a single GPU card and a desktop processor would of had a wide appeal.  The freed up GPU space could of easily supported a SSD expansion area.  In a nut shell Apple seems to have zero ability to adapt machines to market needs.      

    The coming Mac Pro looks like the same sort of stupidity.   They will produce a high end machine that will sell well initially to the high end pro market.  After that demand is meant sales will suffer as the base machine is way to expensive to place on most users desks.   Three years from know users will be demanding an update that never comes.   At the same time whispers will come from Apple about poor sales making it hard to justify an update.  

    The Mac line has suffered from poor management and a total lack of vision for years now.  We can only hope that this new machine is the start of a turn around for the product line.   To be honest though it doesn’t look like they really considered the wide array of Pro users for this machine.   

    In any event we only need to look at other elements of the Mac lineup to see if Apple has finally gotten with it.  We should be seeing new iMacs and Minis sometime early in the new year.   Ideally a fat Mini with a discreet GPU!    If the hardware languishes we will know that Apple has yet to recover from the neglect seen in the Mac lineup.  
    entropysmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 54 of 78
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    henrybay said:
    wizard69 said:
    sergioz said:
    I enjoyed this article tremendously. I agree with Daniel about keyboard fiasco that was overblown by bloggers, who know nothing about butterfly keyboards or even failure rate butterfly keyboards vs. scissor mechanism. It’s kind of sad to see that big company like Apple  has to take step back to go forward because of few pesky bloggers and YouTubers. 
    The failure of those keyboards was very real.     You don’t need to be a blogger to realize that.    As for Daniel he repeatedly, in his articles, twists things such that the truth isn’t represented anymore.   Apple introduced an absolutely terrible keyboard and got called out for it, that is what happened and is well documented.  
    wizard69 said:
    sergioz said:
    I enjoyed this article tremendously. I agree with Daniel about keyboard fiasco that was overblown by bloggers, who know nothing about butterfly keyboards or even failure rate butterfly keyboards vs. scissor mechanism. It’s kind of sad to see that big company like Apple  has to take step back to go forward because of few pesky bloggers and YouTubers. 
    The failure of those keyboards was very real.     You don’t need to be a blogger to realize that.    As for Daniel he repeatedly, in his articles, twists things such that the truth isn’t represented anymore.   Apple introduced an absolutely terrible keyboard and got called out for it, that is what happened and is well documented.  
    Well said. Apple got called out for producing an atrociously bad keyboard. It wasn’t just the failure rate - the butterfly keyboard was horrible to type on. Flat, unresponsive and lacking any tactile feel. 
    After some really bad customer service I got so pissed at Apple that I went out and bought an HP at half the price that has a far better keyboard.  It runs AMD’s the new Ryzen mobile processor and frankly performed better that the MBP.   The only real short coming was a magnetic hard drive but the machine has enough RAM that that isn’t a problem for my usage.  Running Linux on it means that the departure from MacOS isn’t that huge either.  

    By the way Ryzen mobile being new did take awhile to stabilize but that just means it has gotten faster. At the same time anybody running Intel hardware has seen their machines slow down due to the endless mitigation’s for security bugs in Intel’s hardware.  As such it is a huge disappointment to see an Intel processor in this machine.  I’m not sure if I will return to the Mac, I really like MacOS but I have little patients for crap hardware.  
    henrybayphilboogie
  • Reply 55 of 78
    henrybay said:
    Quote: ‘To blogger critics who have never done anything apart from writing their opinions on a subject, the solutions are simplistic: stop making light and thin machines, go back to using a keyboard from 2015, and add more RAM! Also, be faster with less heat and don't spin those fans up!’

    It turns out that the solutions WERE quite simplistic - stop making such a thin and light machine, go back to using a scissor keyboard with a decent amount of travel, and add more power while addressing the heat issues.’

    It was Apple who complicated things by pursuing its silly ‘thin at all costs’ mantra which undermined a generation of Macbooks. Now, with the new MacBook Pro, they are back on track
    The new MBP is one piece of paper thicker than the 2016-2018. At the same time, it is thinner, smaller, and lighter than the 2012-2015 RMBP.
    You mean to tell us the new MBP is thinner, smaller, and lighter than the pre-butterfly MBPs, and yet better in every way!? How can this be!
    Time travel?
  • Reply 56 of 78
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,278member
    I don't care.
    Where is my 32-inch iMac with double the screen resolution?
    You can never have a decent 1st comment.
    roundaboutnowpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 78
    BigDann said:
    Let's correct a bit of the Keyboard problem. The 2016 & 2017 had the most issues. The 2018 & 2919 are better for sure! They are still failing just the same. A lot of it has to do with different keys wearing out.

    Depending on what your game is you can kill the Shift key, Space or a collection of letters or numbers. As an example A, E, S & R are the ones I tend to use more. I wore out two 2016 and one 2017 at which point I gave up on the newer systems, bought a second 2015 and have not worn out keys just the keycaps!

    The biggest issue is the inability to service discreet key you need to replace the full keyboard. But even that is not possible! The full uppercase needs to be swapped out. So while we have four years of free coverage what happens then? A very expensive repair! Apple and all of the others need to alter their throw-away mentality! Most laptops today have no reason not to last six to eight years.
    Well Dann, I can match your anecdote with my own. I've been using butterfly keyboards exclusively for the last three years, and I am notorious for banging out massive walls of text on a nearly daily basis. I make typos and mistakes, but I have yet to have a single issue with a MBP keyboard. 

    Of course, my experiences aren't really applicable across Apple's 100M installed base. So to really understand what's happening, we looked beyond our own personal experiences and dug through mountains of data that focused on repairs. If the butterfly keyboard were significantly more troubled than previous models, we should have seen data supporting that. It really comes down to: do you care about reality, or do you have a preconceived notion that a personal experience means that Apple is actually building defective products that generate massive repair bills, but is somehow magically unaffected by this in its financial reporting. 

    Sometimes data is bad, as we've seen from all the supposed estimates that imagined Apple was getting pushed out of the tablet market by cheap Androids. We could show what was wrong with that data, and predicted an outcome that turned out to be correct. 

    If Apple were repairing keyboards anything close to the experience of few people who experienced real problems, or who simply didn't like the feel, that wouldn't be invisible outside of blogger rage bits and video podcasts of a Wall Street Journal blogger dressing up to create infotainment bits about how butterfly is a code-word for evil. 

    If in the future we see some long term data that shows that mobile machines lifespans are radically shortened by their keyboard failures, that would be news. We have yet to see any evidence of that. However, Apple pretty clearly doesn't have a "throw away mentality," because the company is working to establish an installed base it can sell services/ software to. That's a far stronger interest in long term viability than the makers of Windows notebooks and Chromebooks and other devices that only make money when they are replaced on a regular cycle. Microsoft really isn't making any money from a Windows App Store servicing the installed base, and Google's service contracts are no dependent upon Chromebooks lasting for any length of time. These are cheaply designed products that don't last by design. Apple's MacBooks are not. 

    Now, will ultra mobile devices likely wear out faster than a tank built to deliver a 1990s experience? Perhaps, but buyers are not flocking to heavy built laptops advertising indestructibility. They want light and thin machines.  This is driven by demand, not merely by Apple's design.
    MacProrundhvidwatto_cobra
  • Reply 58 of 78

    henrybay said:
    Quote: ‘To blogger critics who have never done anything apart from writing their opinions on a subject, the solutions are simplistic: stop making light and thin machines, go back to using a keyboard from 2015, and add more RAM! Also, be faster with less heat and don't spin those fans up!’

    It turns out that the solutions WERE quite simplistic - stop making such a thin and light machine, go back to using a scissor keyboard with a decent amount of travel, and add more power while addressing the heat issues.’

    It was Apple who complicated things by pursuing its silly ‘thin at all costs’ mantra which undermined a generation of Macbooks. Now, with the new MacBook Pro, they are back on track
    The new MBP is one piece of paper thicker than the 2016-2018. At the same time, it is thinner, smaller, and lighter than the 2012-2015 RMBP.
    What point are you making?

    It took them 4 years to follow the 2015 MacBook Pro with a version customers don't despise. Until yesterday, there hasn't been a MacBook Pro that anyone was really happy about for years.

    There is no spinning this.
    To suggest that "customers despise" Apple's MacBooks is just nutter-level absurdity. Apple sells $25 Billion of Macs every year, and most of these are notebooks.

    So the spin is coming from the mob. You might as well be frothing about how toxic vaccines are. It's really that unhinged. Absolute blind rage in the face of facts and logic. 
    MacPropscooter63rundhvidwatto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 78

    kamilton said:
    It’s just beyond stupid not to have the most satisfying keyboard experience possible. That is the effing interface on a laptop. Look at the engineering involved in making AirPods hang just right in the human ear. At a few effing millimeters and make the touch irresistible. Nope. They shuck and jive and defend the errors of keyboardgate. Jony just had to have it thinner. Dumb. Shot sighted and dumb. Look at the 180 done on the Mac Pro. I expected the same initiative on the MBP. Screw it, I’m not dropping 3K on the 16”. I’ll buy a 2015 15 or 13” retina and keep on trucking. Total disappointment. Stop defending
    There are plenty of people for whom AirPods don't fit well. If you interviewed a few of them it would be effortless to generate a Joanna Stern-type video about how Apple is building AirPods that are wrong and hates consumers and must be shoveled in a bit and burned with fire. Straight up antivax style propaganda is so easy! That's why morons are so good at it. 
    MacProwatto_cobra
  • Reply 60 of 78

    wizard69 said:
    The Mac line suffered from poor management.   We should be seeing new iMacs and Minis sometime early in the new year.   Ideally a fat Mini with a discreet GPU!    If the hardware languishes we will know that Apple has yet to recover from the neglect seen in the Mac lineup.  

    No doubt you won't be happy until this "fat mini" has an Nvidia GPU and USB A ports. 

    Better just unplug from the web and enjoy your HP laptop running Linux that you narrowly selected over a completely different product with nothing in common. 
    MacPropscooter63rundhvidwatto_cobra
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