Am I the only one that likes the butterfly keyboard? I liked it from the first moment I typed on it. I've never been a keyboard snob though. I like the chiclet keys in the apple wireless keyboard, and the super heavy clicky keys of mechanical keyboards. I loved the old ADB Extended Keyboard/ Keyboard II. Guess there's never really a keyboard I've never liked on a Mac.
You are definitely not the only one. I like the butterfly keys much much better than the scissors switch keys in the MBP16 and prior Apple keyboards, and I like the Touchbar over the function row.
I definitely prefer a swift buckling action, ie, clicky clacky keys, over the more gradual spring actuation. This includes full sized keyboards with 4 to 5 mm of travel. Definitely prefer the mechanics of a light stroke until the end, there is a rise in force and a swift buckling and stop to indicate the key has been actuated. Razor has a high end external keyboard that does this. The butterfly keyboard is great at this.
Every time you hear someone complain about it, you have to mentally think they are talking about a pair of gloves, an article of clothing, as they just giving their subjective opinion of how it fits, not some objective fact.
Let's see if I understood. If someone criticize negatively butterfly keyboards, is just a subjective opinion, and not an objective fact. If that's the case, I could say that MacBooks don't have the best trackpad compared to other notebooks, is just a subjective opinion and not an objective fact. Is that right? Do you really think that some who don't like or criticize butterfly keyboards is not being objective?
There were several complaints with the butterfly keyboards - increased noise, decreased travel, poor reliability and inability to repair/replace the keyboard or even remove individual keys. The increased noise was improved with subsequent generations. Reliability supposedly improved, but there still were some issues being reported. As far as the decreased travel, that was purely a preference thing. There were some who liked it, some who hated it and some who didn't care for it but got used to it. Either way, that portion is definitely an opinion. If you like it, fine. It works for you. Just because I may not like it doesn't mean your opinion is wrong.
Personally, I don't care for it but have gotten used to the feel. The inability to repair or remove individual keys and the reliability are my main beefs, and those are not subjective.
I know preferences are subjective. But my post was focused on criticizing and not being objective. I work with many devices and see the difference in a keyboard like in Thinkpads or Surface devices, compared to MBP's. That doesn't means I'm not being objective when I criticize negatively MBP keyboards.
At the same time, for years Apple have been praised for it's excellent trackpad. But if keyboards are subjective, we can extend that POV to MBP trackpads and say they aren't good, but just a matter of "subjective opinion and not and objective fact", right?
And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel. I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago. Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks. I didn't had to get used to it. It was excellent, period. So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?
But like you said, if some like it, be happy with it...
What objective measures are you using to declare that something is good or bad? The gadget/tech media is very narrow focused on their own use cases, and it’s their job to have an opinion, or a story, not to have objective facts. Hard to trust their opinion or some random person’s opinion on the Internet about things. And as the device, gadget, product gets closer and closer to being clothes or food or art, the quality of a product increasingly becomes subjective to the whims and fashions of the user, no? I do think keyboards and trackpads start to approach a wearable category.
For trackpads, there are obvious measurements that can be made, such as touch latency, UI scroll tracking, multitouch or gesture identification, surface friction, size, click response response, gesture command set. You can do these measurements, and Apple trackpads will come out on top or near the top of various quality measurements. People don’t do them, but this is one of those things that is very obvious in the performance of a trackpad after a few minutes of use. If it wasn’t for most trackpads on Windows being terrible, there would be more subjective opinion on what OEM has the best trackpad, rather than what is now: Apple, then maybe MS, and the rest is a sea of mediocrity.
For keyboards, what objective measures are you using to determine what is a good keyboard? It has to be at least words per minute, some dexterity measurement for cursor control, so on and so forth. Maybe there should be an repetitive stress injury indicator of some kind? (This is likely a nothingburger if not dangerous). Shouldn’t a reviewer type a 1000 word benchmark to figure it out? Has anyone said that they type slower on a butterfly keyboard?
Then, a keyboard is basically a tool that is continually learned through practice across a lifetime of use, making the layout of the keyboard a baked in part of a person’s opinion of the quality of a keyboard. Proficiency is length-of-use dependent, and each user has a learned process of how they use a keyboard, and how would you test this? Is there actually one good way to use a keyboard? Is the quality of a keyboard dependent on a users knowledge of a keyboard, and dependent on how they learned how to use a keyboard?
Eg, Marco Arment and others complain about the gaps between keys not being big enough, due to butterfly keys being bigger while the key-to-key spacing is preserved. They say the gap is important to them as it helps them feel where the keys are. I hear that and I’m thinking “WTF? Aren’t these guys touch typists by now?” Maybe I misunderstood what “touch typing” means? Or the much hated full height left and right arrow keys. The Surface devices have full height left and right arrow keys with half height up-down keys, right? Well, after all the complaints about the MBP not having an inverted T arrow key layout, that must mean the Surface keyboard sucks?
Yes, gadget / tech media may have a narrow POV of their own cases, as you said. But then we'll have to say that when they praise or criticize positively Apple and their devices, is not because they are good. Instead is because "it’s their job to have an opinion, or a story, not to have objective facts.". Is that your point?
You are right on the different things what makes Apple trackpads so good. Keyboads have less elements of measure, but still important for an input device that's used so much in almost all cases and workflows. When I mentioned my case with Apple trackpads, the first thing I noticed was the precision, and it was instantly. I had not to get used to that. I remember using an old Thinkpad, maybe T420. It was the worst trackpad, and you could notice the difference compared to Apple trackpads. On the contrary, Thinkpads keyboards have been excellent for a long time. Even Apple had very good keyboards in the 2015 models. But then you could see the difference when the 2016 MBP was released, and not in a positive way. Instantly I noticed that tactile feedback was awful. And it was more noticeable when I went back to use my customers Thinkpads and Surface Books. Then I start reading how many people felt the same. Maybe I could get use to that tactile feedback if it was my only device. But the thing is that I was working with devices that had a better keyboard. The difference was noticeable, the same way Apple trackpads were better than Windows devices trackpads. And add to it quality issues. How is possible that dust stuck the keys? Compared that to Thinkpads, that have a better tactile experience and are spill resistant, event in their thinnest X1 Carbon.
Like I posted before, people could get used to the butterfly keyboard, and some of them may love them. But if they are so good, why I had to get used to them? Plus Apple going back to the scissor-mechanism shows that something didn't went as expected. IMO, now that Apple improved the typing experience (at least from what I had read) and Windows devices getting far better trackpads, the keyboard + trackpad advantage of one device over other may not exist anymore. I think both Apple and high quality Windows devices are giving a very close experience from a input device POV. And that's good news for everyone.
And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel. I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago. Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks. I didn't had to get used to it. It was excellent, period. So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?
We often have to be rewired for better things. There's no effort involved for some things, like getting used to twice as much bandwidth for the internet, (but it could be jarring to have it drop by half.
Do you remember when Apple switched the default scrolling direction in macOS so that the finger direction matched the direction of the screen elements? This was to match how iOS works, it's what we were using with iOS, it made perfect sense, and yet it still took a little getting used to. There are countless examples of this and none of them mean it's not a "good" solution because we've had to be trained.
PS: I have gotten used to using my MBP's keyboard because I've been using it every day for years, but it still doesn't feel as good or work as well for me as my 2013 MBP when I jump back to it. I don't plan on getting the 16" MBP but if I use that keyboard it may very well be a $3000 implies buy.
I get your point of being "rewired", but most of the time is when something is not good. When something is good, as Apple trackpads or Thinkpad / Surface keyboards, you adapt to it without issues. IMO, and from what I have seen, that didn't happen with the butterfly keyboard. And it's more noticeable when you have to work in a frequent basis with Thinkpads and Suface devices, that have excellent keyboards, and now their trackpads aren't that bad at all. Now we have to see how the new MBP keyboard works…
It happens all the time, and it's not necessarily good or bad. Learning to drive on the opposite side of the street, or transitioning from flying a plane back to driving.
We also saw people have to get use to USB-A over a plethora of other ports (which they complained about), and having to get use to not having an ODD (which they complained about). Then there are countless OS changes which people always complain about. Some people not only welcome the change they've asked it for a long time, while others simply figure out how to use and then like it more, with other choosing to use it but not preferring it, and then others refusing to use it altogether by failing to update for many years. None of those changes mean it was a bad move simply because people didn't like the change, or the original iPhone would be a failure because it was large with its ridiculously sized 3.5" display and no physical keyboard.
I agree with you with that there are cases where is not necessarily good / bad, as the example you gave with scrolling direction. But in this case, the keyboard was a step back for a lot of people compared to the MBP 2015 and other Windows notebooks. Many people already got used to it, because it was the only device they had. And even some of them prefer it over the old one. But again, if it was that good, why it takes so long to adapt / get used to it? Compare that to the experience of Apple trackpads and Thinkpad / Surface keyboards, where instantly you feel the quality. Personally, and for many people, I didn't felt that with the butterfly keyboard. Maybe if I had more time with my MBP, I had got used to it. A the same time, I think Apple going back to the scissor-mechanism shows that something didn't went as expected.
I'm not sure if people got already used to the lack of USB-A ports. They just use what they need to complete their workflow, so I suppose they had to add adapters, dongles and docking stations. Don't you think that would be a better experience if the MBP had one or two USB-A ports? Again, they may got used to that, but that doesn't means you have the best experience. Same as ODD. Many people missed optical disks until downloads and USB drives were more common.
On the iPhone, IMO there was no device as good as it. Not even close. At the time 3.5" was not a bad thing. But you got a point with the on-screen keyboard. Typing was better in Blackberries and other devices with physical keyboard. But not having physical keyboard in the iPhone gave a better overall experience, like having apps in full screen, and in my case, keyboard in different languages. When users saw how good the iPhone was, they had no issues sacrificing the typing experience (including myself). My question is, did the MBP is a better device because of the butterfly keyboard? IMO, no it isn't. And based in what I have read in the last 3 years, a lot of people feel the same way.
Two points:
1) For me, the keyboard was a step backwards and I never fully found as comfortably or efficient as the previous design, but that doesn't mean that better technology doesn't require some effort to adapt. This seems especially true when there is muscle memory involved.
2) I believe my issues with the keyboard could've been resolved with more travel and a different feel to the butterfly keys, and don't believe that the issue was inherent to the butterfly mechanism. I also claim that you can make a scissor-based key that is even worse than the butterfly keys used by Apple.
Yes, gadget / tech media may have a narrow POV of their own cases, as you said. But then we'll have to say that when they praise or criticize positively Apple and their devices, is not because they are good. Instead is because "it’s their job to have an opinion, or a story, not to have objective facts.". Is that your point?
Their, or anyone’s, reviews and statements need to be backed up by actual use or have some sort of corroboration? So, perhaps you can boil down my point to trust, but verify, but also recognize when something is subjective.
The butterfly keyboards definitely had reliability problems (which AI was really the only site to provide corroborating data and even there it was not perfect), and Apple obviously took too long to get them reliable, by about two years. The 2018 and 2019 models appear to have driven down the reliability problems with the keyboard 2012 to 2015 model year rates. They really needed to have that kind of reliability in 2016 or 2017 model years to prevent the reliability issues from hurting the brand.
Instantly I noticed that tactile feedback was awful. And it was more noticeable when I went back to use my customers Thinkpads and Surface Books. Then I start reading how many people felt the same. Maybe I could get use to that tactile feedback if it was my only device. But the thing is that I was working with devices that had a better keyboard.
I love the tactile feedback of the butterfly keys. So do other people. When I type on other keyboards, they feel like mush and not enjoyable. Now what? It goes both ways.
No disagreements about the reliability issues. That was the issue that killed this keyboard design for Apple, and they took 2 years too long to fix it. For the typing experience however, I like the feel of the butterfly keys and it’s a loss for me going forward. You win and lose features in every new product or model year, so it’s not that a big a deal.
And you bring another point, you just get used to the feel. I remember when I purchase my first MBP many years ago. Instantly I noticed the difference in quality compared to other notebooks. I didn't had to get used to it. It was excellent, period. So why do I have to get used to the butterfly keyboard if it's so good?
We often have to be rewired for better things. There's no effort involved for some things, like getting used to twice as much bandwidth for the internet, (but it could be jarring to have it drop by half.
Do you remember when Apple switched the default scrolling direction in macOS so that the finger direction matched the direction of the screen elements? This was to match how iOS works, it's what we were using with iOS, it made perfect sense, and yet it still took a little getting used to. There are countless examples of this and none of them mean it's not a "good" solution because we've had to be trained.
PS: I have gotten used to using my MBP's keyboard because I've been using it every day for years, but it still doesn't feel as good or work as well for me as my 2013 MBP when I jump back to it. I don't plan on getting the 16" MBP but if I use that keyboard it may very well be a $3000 implies buy.
I get your point of being "rewired", but most of the time is when something is not good. When something is good, as Apple trackpads or Thinkpad / Surface keyboards, you adapt to it without issues. IMO, and from what I have seen, that didn't happen with the butterfly keyboard. And it's more noticeable when you have to work in a frequent basis with Thinkpads and Suface devices, that have excellent keyboards, and now their trackpads aren't that bad at all. Now we have to see how the new MBP keyboard works…
It happens all the time, and it's not necessarily good or bad. Learning to drive on the opposite side of the street, or transitioning from flying a plane back to driving.
We also saw people have to get use to USB-A over a plethora of other ports (which they complained about), and having to get use to not having an ODD (which they complained about). Then there are countless OS changes which people always complain about. Some people not only welcome the change they've asked it for a long time, while others simply figure out how to use and then like it more, with other choosing to use it but not preferring it, and then others refusing to use it altogether by failing to update for many years. None of those changes mean it was a bad move simply because people didn't like the change, or the original iPhone would be a failure because it was large with its ridiculously sized 3.5" display and no physical keyboard.
I agree with you with that there are cases where is not necessarily good / bad, as the example you gave with scrolling direction. But in this case, the keyboard was a step back for a lot of people compared to the MBP 2015 and other Windows notebooks. Many people already got used to it, because it was the only device they had. And even some of them prefer it over the old one. But again, if it was that good, why it takes so long to adapt / get used to it? Compare that to the experience of Apple trackpads and Thinkpad / Surface keyboards, where instantly you feel the quality. Personally, and for many people, I didn't felt that with the butterfly keyboard. Maybe if I had more time with my MBP, I had got used to it. A the same time, I think Apple going back to the scissor-mechanism shows that something didn't went as expected.
I'm not sure if people got already used to the lack of USB-A ports. They just use what they need to complete their workflow, so I suppose they had to add adapters, dongles and docking stations. Don't you think that would be a better experience if the MBP had one or two USB-A ports? Again, they may got used to that, but that doesn't means you have the best experience. Same as ODD. Many people missed optical disks until downloads and USB drives were more common.
On the iPhone, IMO there was no device as good as it. Not even close. At the time 3.5" was not a bad thing. But you got a point with the on-screen keyboard. Typing was better in Blackberries and other devices with physical keyboard. But not having physical keyboard in the iPhone gave a better overall experience, like having apps in full screen, and in my case, keyboard in different languages. When users saw how good the iPhone was, they had no issues sacrificing the typing experience (including myself). My question is, did the MBP is a better device because of the butterfly keyboard? IMO, no it isn't. And based in what I have read in the last 3 years, a lot of people feel the same way.
Two points:
1) For me, the keyboard was a step backwards and I never fully found as comfortably or efficient as the previous design, but that doesn't mean that better technology doesn't require some effort to adapt. This seems especially true when there is muscle memory involved.
2) I believe my issues with the keyboard could've been resolved with more travel and a different feel to the butterfly keys, and don't believe that the issue was inherent to the butterfly mechanism. I also claim that you can make a scissor-based key that is even worse than the butterfly keys used by Apple.
1) Agree. My comment is based in the context of the butterfly keyboards, and my personal experience. Other people may had a different one. 2) Agree in both points. Apple took the steps to make a better keyboard, same as Windows devices made far better trackpads. At the end, soon we'll have excellent input devices in both, Apple and Windows devices.
Yes, gadget / tech media may have a narrow POV of their own cases, as you said. But then we'll have to say that when they praise or criticize positively Apple and their devices, is not because they are good. Instead is because "it’s their job to have an opinion, or a story, not to have objective facts.". Is that your point?
Their, or anyone’s, reviews and statements need to be backed up by actual use or have some sort of corroboration? So, perhaps you can boil down my point to trust, but verify, but also recognize when something is subjective.
The butterfly keyboards definitely had reliability problems (which AI was really the only site to provide corroborating data and even there it was not perfect), and Apple obviously took too long to get them reliable, by about two years. The 2018 and 2019 models appear to have driven down the reliability problems with the keyboard 2012 to 2015 model year rates. They really needed to have that kind of reliability in 2016 or 2017 model years to prevent the reliability issues from hurting the brand.
Instantly I noticed that tactile feedback was awful. And it was more noticeable when I went back to use my customers Thinkpads and Surface Books. Then I start reading how many people felt the same. Maybe I could get use to that tactile feedback if it was my only device. But the thing is that I was working with devices that had a better keyboard.
I love the tactile feedback of the butterfly keys. So do other people. When I type on other keyboards, they feel like mush and not enjoyable. Now what? It goes both ways.
No disagreements about the reliability issues. That was the issue that killed this keyboard design for Apple, and they took 2 years too long to fix it. For the typing experience however, I like the feel of the butterfly keys and it’s a loss for me going forward. You win and lose features in every new product or model year, so it’s not that a big a deal.
My point is that you think that bad press Apple butterfly keyboard is because, as you said, the media have a narrow POV of their own cases. And in some cases, I'll agree. But in this case I'll add the long list of people criticizing negatively the tactile feedback and quality. I don't remember seeing that with the pre-2016 MBP keyboard. It's clear that the media wasn't the only group of people that didn't like the experience. But if you like, and had no issues with it, enjoy it! IMO based in working with Thinkpad and Surface devices, which most people praise for their keyboards, the butterfly keyboards typing experience wasn't good. Second, maybe Apple going back to the scissor-mechanism is evidence of the negative feedback of the previous keyboard.
Who gives a rats fart about shitty WiFi. That protocol is fundamentally flawed and everyone trying to egoistically occupy more of the overcrowded WiFi bands is certainly not going to make it any better. If you want proper and stable bandwidth, get an adapter and a cable...
Every time you hear someone complain about it, you have to mentally think they are talking about a pair of gloves, an article of clothing, as they just giving their subjective opinion of how it fits, not some objective fact.
Every time you hear someone compliment it, you have to mentally think they are talking about a pair of gloves, an article of clothing, as they just giving their subjective opinion of how it fits, not some objective fact.
I have an Apple Extended II keyboard and an early white Matias keyboard – both very clicky-clacky, great feel, with a lot more key travel than the last few years of MacBook keyboards. Whatever the key design, these feel much better than the current batch of Apple keyboards. Lenovo keyboards feel much better than these Apple keyboard switches.
I do not like the feel of my MacBook keyboard. It took me several months to realize and resign myself to the fact that I don't like my MacBook keyboard and won't ever get used to it. I type faster and more accurately on a cheap Logitech keyboard than the MB.
So in the grand scheme of things I see this MBP keyboard as not sucking as much as the other MB/MBP keyboards rather than being a 'good' keyboard.
> And, Apple tells us that individual keys can be replaced. We didn't get any information on what this entails, but at this juncture, it still looks like a complete disassembly is required to do so.
"...the $49 Apple Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter will connect that unit to the new machine. It won't supply power, but, fortunately, the 96W adapter that your machine came with will."
-could you please translate what seems to be an ambiguous sentence? I just bought the 2016 MBP and have an external drive (Thunderbolt 2), so I have to buy the Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter to use it. Will power get through to the drive or not?
The sentence you're referring to is in regard to docks (the part you truncated). TB2 docks won't provide power to a TB3 machine. The adapter will provide power to TB2 drives.
"...the $49 Apple Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter will connect that unit to the new machine. It won't supply power, but, fortunately, the 96W adapter that your machine came with will."
-could you please translate what seems to be an ambiguous sentence? I just bought the 2016 MBP and have an external drive (Thunderbolt 2), so I have to buy the Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter to use it. Will power get through to the drive or not?
The sentence you're referring to is in regard to docks (the part you truncated). TB2 docks won't provide power to a TB3 machine. The adapter will provide power to TB2 drives.
Hey Mike, I got a couple of questions about the Magic keyboard: 1. Are those keycaps any smaller compared to butterfly keys? My measurement on the 4th-gen is about 16~16.5mm. 2. Do they also feel much flatter to touch? Butterfly keys have noticeable curves when you lay your fingers down, something that most laptops can't even do. 3. How bad is the backlight leakage? Are they any worse than butterfly?
"...the $49 Apple Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter will connect that unit to the new machine. It won't supply power, but, fortunately, the 96W adapter that your machine came with will."
-could you please translate what seems to be an ambiguous sentence? I just bought the 2016 MBP and have an external drive (Thunderbolt 2), so I have to buy the Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter to use it. Will power get through to the drive or not?
The sentence you're referring to is in regard to docks (the part you truncated). TB2 docks won't provide power to a TB3 machine. The adapter will provide power to TB2 drives.
Hey Mike, I got a couple of questions about the Magic keyboard: 1. Are those keycaps any smaller compared to butterfly keys? My measurement on the 4th-gen is about 16~16.5mm. 2. Do they also feel much flatter to touch? Butterfly keys have noticeable curves when you lay your fingers down, something that most laptops can't even do. 3. How bad is the backlight leakage? Are they any worse than butterfly?
1: They're about the same size. I don't have my good calipers with me, but I'll take a better measurement on Monday.
2: A little flatter, but the cupping is still noticeable. 3: Not as dramatic as the 2015. About the same, perhaps a hair more, than the 2016-2018 15-inch MBP.
> pixel density going from 220 to 226ppi. That likely won't be a huge reason for users
Oh yes it will! For all the Indogene-human hybrids out there who have genetically engineered super-vision! (Think standard-conspiracy reptillian, but with less hair)
"...the $49 Apple Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter will connect that unit to the new machine. It won't supply power, but, fortunately, the 96W adapter that your machine came with will."
-could you please translate what seems to be an ambiguous sentence? I just bought the 2016 MBP and have an external drive (Thunderbolt 2), so I have to buy the Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter to use it. Will power get through to the drive or not?
The sentence you're referring to is in regard to docks (the part you truncated). TB2 docks won't provide power to a TB3 machine. The adapter will provide power to TB2 drives.
Hey Mike, I got a couple of questions about the Magic keyboard: 1. Are those keycaps any smaller compared to butterfly keys? My measurement on the 4th-gen is about 16~16.5mm. 2. Do they also feel much flatter to touch? Butterfly keys have noticeable curves when you lay your fingers down, something that most laptops can't even do. 3. How bad is the backlight leakage? Are they any worse than butterfly?
1: They're about the same size. I don't have my good calipers with me, but I'll take a better measurement on Monday.
2: A little flatter, but the cupping is still noticeable. 3: Not as dramatic as the 2015. About the same, perhaps a hair more, than the 2016-2018 15-inch MBP.
Good to know. Have you measured the keycap so far?
Also, at the same volume setting, is the 16" any louder than the 15"? I'd also like to know if the entry-level 13" Pro is any louder than the Air as well.
There is also distortion when I push my Air, the bass is less dramatic when at 75%. I don't know if that's an issue with the Pro (especially 15" and 16").
"...the $49 Apple Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter will connect that unit to the new machine. It won't supply power, but, fortunately, the 96W adapter that your machine came with will."
-could you please translate what seems to be an ambiguous sentence? I just bought the 2016 MBP and have an external drive (Thunderbolt 2), so I have to buy the Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter to use it. Will power get through to the drive or not?
The sentence you're referring to is in regard to docks (the part you truncated). TB2 docks won't provide power to a TB3 machine. The adapter will provide power to TB2 drives.
Hey Mike, I got a couple of questions about the Magic keyboard: 1. Are those keycaps any smaller compared to butterfly keys? My measurement on the 4th-gen is about 16~16.5mm. 2. Do they also feel much flatter to touch? Butterfly keys have noticeable curves when you lay your fingers down, something that most laptops can't even do. 3. How bad is the backlight leakage? Are they any worse than butterfly?
1: They're about the same size. I don't have my good calipers with me, but I'll take a better measurement on Monday.
2: A little flatter, but the cupping is still noticeable. 3: Not as dramatic as the 2015. About the same, perhaps a hair more, than the 2016-2018 15-inch MBP.
Good to know. Have you measured the keycap so far?
Also, at the same volume setting, is the 16" any louder than the 15"? I'd also like to know if the entry-level 13" Pro is any louder than the Air as well.
There is also distortion when I push my Air, the bass is less dramatic when at 75%. I don't know if that's an issue with the Pro (especially 15" and 16").
I have not measured, I apologize. It's been busy. Remind me later in the week, if you can.
In regards to the volume, the 16 may be the slightest bit louder than the 15, which is a slight bit louder than the 13-inch Pro, but it's near-imperceptible and I had to use a noise meter to see it. The Air speakers suffer from a smaller volume than the 13-inch MBP, so there will corresponding performance decreases.
"...the $49 Apple Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter will connect that unit to the new machine. It won't supply power, but, fortunately, the 96W adapter that your machine came with will."
-could you please translate what seems to be an ambiguous sentence? I just bought the 2016 MBP and have an external drive (Thunderbolt 2), so I have to buy the Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter to use it. Will power get through to the drive or not?
The sentence you're referring to is in regard to docks (the part you truncated). TB2 docks won't provide power to a TB3 machine. The adapter will provide power to TB2 drives.
Hey Mike, I got a couple of questions about the Magic keyboard: 1. Are those keycaps any smaller compared to butterfly keys? My measurement on the 4th-gen is about 16~16.5mm. 2. Do they also feel much flatter to touch? Butterfly keys have noticeable curves when you lay your fingers down, something that most laptops can't even do. 3. How bad is the backlight leakage? Are they any worse than butterfly?
1: They're about the same size. I don't have my good calipers with me, but I'll take a better measurement on Monday.
2: A little flatter, but the cupping is still noticeable. 3: Not as dramatic as the 2015. About the same, perhaps a hair more, than the 2016-2018 15-inch MBP.
Good to know. Have you measured the keycap so far?
Also, at the same volume setting, is the 16" any louder than the 15"? I'd also like to know if the entry-level 13" Pro is any louder than the Air as well.
There is also distortion when I push my Air, the bass is less dramatic when at 75%. I don't know if that's an issue with the Pro (especially 15" and 16").
I have not measured, I apologize. It's been busy. Remind me later in the week, if you can.
In regards to the volume, the 16 may be the slightest bit louder than the 15, which is a slight bit louder than the 13-inch Pro, but it's near-imperceptible and I had to use a noise meter to see it. The Air speakers suffer from a smaller volume than the 13-inch MBP, so there will corresponding performance decreases.
Okay, I will.
So the Air is a little quieter than the entry-level Pro. What about the distortion? Is the bass getting weaker when you turned your volume up on all Pros?
I can definitely tell on my Air, which the amplifier isn't getting enough power, pretty common for many audio systems out there.
I can't find my calipers, so a super-precise measurement will have to wait. If there is a difference in key dimensions, it will need those to find out, as I can't see one on a millimeter-graduated ruler.
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You are right on the different things what makes Apple trackpads so good. Keyboads have less elements of measure, but still important for an input device that's used so much in almost all cases and workflows. When I mentioned my case with Apple trackpads, the first thing I noticed was the precision, and it was instantly. I had not to get used to that. I remember using an old Thinkpad, maybe T420. It was the worst trackpad, and you could notice the difference compared to Apple trackpads. On the contrary, Thinkpads keyboards have been excellent for a long time. Even Apple had very good keyboards in the 2015 models. But then you could see the difference when the 2016 MBP was released, and not in a positive way. Instantly I noticed that tactile feedback was awful. And it was more noticeable when I went back to use my customers Thinkpads and Surface Books. Then I start reading how many people felt the same. Maybe I could get use to that tactile feedback if it was my only device. But the thing is that I was working with devices that had a better keyboard. The difference was noticeable, the same way Apple trackpads were better than Windows devices trackpads. And add to it quality issues. How is possible that dust stuck the keys? Compared that to Thinkpads, that have a better tactile experience and are spill resistant, event in their thinnest X1 Carbon.
Like I posted before, people could get used to the butterfly keyboard, and some of them may love them. But if they are so good, why I had to get used to them? Plus Apple going back to the scissor-mechanism shows that something didn't went as expected. IMO, now that Apple improved the typing experience (at least from what I had read) and Windows devices getting far better trackpads, the keyboard + trackpad advantage of one device over other may not exist anymore. I think both Apple and high quality Windows devices are giving a very close experience from a input device POV. And that's good news for everyone.
1) For me, the keyboard was a step backwards and I never fully found as comfortably or efficient as the previous design, but that doesn't mean that better technology doesn't require some effort to adapt. This seems especially true when there is muscle memory involved.
2) I believe my issues with the keyboard could've been resolved with more travel and a different feel to the butterfly keys, and don't believe that the issue was inherent to the butterfly mechanism. I also claim that you can make a scissor-based key that is even worse than the butterfly keys used by Apple.
The butterfly keyboards definitely had reliability problems (which AI was really the only site to provide corroborating data and even there it was not perfect), and Apple obviously took too long to get them reliable, by about two years. The 2018 and 2019 models appear to have driven down the reliability problems with the keyboard 2012 to 2015 model year rates. They really needed to have that kind of reliability in 2016 or 2017 model years to prevent the reliability issues from hurting the brand.
I love the tactile feedback of the butterfly keys. So do other people. When I type on other keyboards, they feel like mush and not enjoyable. Now what? It goes both ways.
No disagreements about the reliability issues. That was the issue that killed this keyboard design for Apple, and they took 2 years too long to fix it. For the typing experience however, I like the feel of the butterfly keys and it’s a loss for me going forward. You win and lose features in every new product or model year, so it’s not that a big a deal.
2) Agree in both points. Apple took the steps to make a better keyboard, same as Windows devices made far better trackpads. At the end, soon we'll have excellent input devices in both, Apple and Windows devices.
I have an Apple Extended II keyboard and an early white Matias keyboard – both very clicky-clacky, great feel, with a lot more key travel than the last few years of MacBook keyboards. Whatever the key design, these feel much better than the current batch of Apple keyboards. Lenovo keyboards feel much better than these Apple keyboard switches.
I do not like the feel of my MacBook keyboard. It took me several months to realize and resign myself to the fact that I don't like my MacBook keyboard and won't ever get used to it. I type faster and more accurately on a cheap Logitech keyboard than the MB.
So in the grand scheme of things I see this MBP keyboard as not sucking as much as the other MB/MBP keyboards rather than being a 'good' keyboard.
The sentence you're referring to is in regard to docks (the part you truncated). TB2 docks won't provide power to a TB3 machine. The adapter will provide power to TB2 drives.
1. Are those keycaps any smaller compared to butterfly keys? My measurement on the 4th-gen is about 16~16.5mm.
2. Do they also feel much flatter to touch? Butterfly keys have noticeable curves when you lay your fingers down, something that most laptops can't even do.
3. How bad is the backlight leakage? Are they any worse than butterfly?
3: Not as dramatic as the 2015. About the same, perhaps a hair more, than the 2016-2018 15-inch MBP.
Also, at the same volume setting, is the 16" any louder than the 15"? I'd also like to know if the entry-level 13" Pro is any louder than the Air as well.
There is also distortion when I push my Air, the bass is less dramatic when at 75%. I don't know if that's an issue with the Pro (especially 15" and 16").
In regards to the volume, the 16 may be the slightest bit louder than the 15, which is a slight bit louder than the 13-inch Pro, but it's near-imperceptible and I had to use a noise meter to see it. The Air speakers suffer from a smaller volume than the 13-inch MBP, so there will corresponding performance decreases.
So the Air is a little quieter than the entry-level Pro. What about the distortion? Is the bass getting weaker when you turned your volume up on all Pros?
I can definitely tell on my Air, which the amplifier isn't getting enough power, pretty common for many audio systems out there.