No, Apple's new Mac Pro isn't overpriced

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Comments

  • Reply 101 of 234
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,137member
    But well duh H O W D A R E Y O U said the G4 is a failure!
  • Reply 102 of 234
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    Would you believe that any person goes to bed at night with concerns about the cost of the Mac Pro. Of course not, that is beyond silly.

    The Mac Pro provides no guidance on future computer prices from Apple, or in anyway has an impact on the lives of ordinary people.
    Then I guess I’m “beyond silly” and “not ordinary”, because yes, I’ve had concerns about this machine’s pricing all week! I’ve been trying to come up with some way, some justification for trying to buy Apple’s ONLY proper workstation offering. There’s just no way, but I can’t really move forward in my computer usage until I switch to something modern and NOT COMPACT.

    I need a proper workstation. I’ve been waiting for a proper workstation for about ten years. I’ve been struggling to save for it all that time, so that I could have a proper Apple workstation, running Mac OS, instead of a disposable, compact, thermally-constrained all-in-one (or a box of PC/Windows voodoo).

    So here we finally are: they announced it was available for sale on my birthday, which is already a time of year I hate. Yeah, I knew the price already, and I was already pissed, but this just felt like getting my face rubbed in it. And yeah, wise-asses, I know it’s not all about me, but I’m a human being with emotions like everyone else and Apple have pushed my damned buttons.

    I don’t care what kind of justification you guys throw at this price point, it’s illogical fanatic’s apologetics. The complaint about cost would not be happening to this degree if Apple hadn’t dumped many of their own prior customers. The prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, enthusiasts... anyone for whom a compact or all-in-one is the WRONG machine, and who still wants to run Mac OS on a legit Apple computer. Apple has ONE offering in this space and it STARTS at $6000!

    The whole problem here is a self-inflicted PR injury on Apple’s part by leaving out an entire segment of the market that they used to serve. A large chunk of that market was dumped by Apple (I guess we’re irrelevant to their Wall Street aspirations). I’m not the only pissed-off person in that group, and we aren’t “a bunch of whiners”. This constant ad hominem BS slamming of people with legit critical commentary is utter fanatical nonsense and turns the media meme of “Apple cultists” into a reality.

    I would have been able to buy a Mac Pro at the previous pricing (prior cheese-graters started at $2500, and the trash can at $3000); I’d have gone to $3500 for this one, but it’s utterly impossible for me to afford at $6000. This one is TWICE the cost of the last model, and NO, there’s no justification. Comparing it to prior insane pricing for Macs of the deep past does not make sense. Those were cases of technological pushes. Technology has moved on a lot since then. Not only is this technology much more a commodity, this machine isn’t even bleeding edge (as has been pointed out by several other commentators). This machine is not different enough from what is already on the market elsewhere (and what Apple used to offer) to demand this kind of pricing for the BASE MODEL.

    And the way you guys dismissed the insane wheel pricing... If you’re not bothered by Microsoft’s insane pricing for Windows licenses, fine, but speak for yourself and don’t lay that nonsense on the rest of us!!!

    I’m not a Pixar or an Adobe. Maybe I’m not ordinary either. I’m an artist struggling with poverty, while trying to find some way to advance myself in terms of my tools and my work (and maybe make a living off of something eventually). I want to buy ONE computer for MULTIPLE purposes, and I expect it to be capable of running full-tilt, for many years, without throttling or dying of thermal stresses (or both). I’m entirely WILLING TO SAVE AND SPEND a considerable amount of money for an Apple workstation, but Apple have boldly declared that my considerable expense isn’t considerable enough. Only corporations are worth Apple’s attention.

    I’m now an abandoned segment of prior Apple customers and I don’t know WTF Apple expect us to do. Abandon Mac OS so we can have a proper workstation? Build Hackintoshes?? No thank you.

    The mental gymnastics, excuses, ad hominem commentary, and sheer callous and blind arrogance on display here is utterly appalling
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
  • Reply 103 of 234
    thttht Posts: 4,133member
    I think I've heard this argument for every pro mac computer since the G4. This point of view always relies on the reductionist argument that the computer is a pile of parts from a bunch of manufacturers. that the machine just comes into existence by designing and testing itself. (Oh and let's hope the reader ignores all the missed parts and Apple specific technologies included.)

    It's a bit like saying your DIY jet is the same thing as Boeing's if you pop over to Pratt & Whitney and buy all the same parts.
    I’d take it even further. A DIYer is putting themselves in the position of the vender or the OEM, not the buyer, and think they can do a better job. They can do PC part picker and get a really cheap price, but they have to go one step further and sell the system to someone else to see what happens. Not only 1 system, but thousands. To be in the business of selling something like this, it is going to be BOM x 2 or BOM x 3 because the costs of running the business has to be paid for with the revenue from the sales. Ie, if the BOM is $2000, you’ll have to sell it at $4000 to $5000 to actually run the business: to pay salaries, to pay for facilities, to pay for lawyers, to pay for licenses, to pay for what will be a lot of things.

    It’s a kind of fantasy from the DIYer thinking that they can do better than a billion dollar company, here is the computer to prove it, and they pat themselves on the back.
    StrangeDayspscooter63fastasleep
  • Reply 104 of 234
    When I retired I turned in my MacBook to the school and my iMac at home is lonely most of the time. My iPad has become my day-to-day workhorse. I admire the new Pro and am glad for the true pros who at long last have a Mac they can enjoy. I doubt any of its whiz-bang technology will ever trickle down to iOS. 
  • Reply 105 of 234
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,321administrator
    dysamoria said:
    Would you believe that any person goes to bed at night with concerns about the cost of the Mac Pro. Of course not, that is beyond silly.

    The Mac Pro provides no guidance on future computer prices from Apple, or in anyway has an impact on the lives of ordinary people.
    Then I guess I’m “beyond silly” and “not ordinary”, because yes, I’ve had concerns about this machine’s pricing all week! I’ve been trying to come up with some way, some justification for trying to buy Apple’s ONLY proper workstation offering. There’s just no way, but I can’t really move forward in my computer usage until I switch to something modern and NOT COMPACT.

    I need a proper workstation. I’ve been waiting for a proper workstation for about ten years. I’ve been struggling to save for it all that time, so that I could have a proper Apple workstation, running Mac OS, instead of a disposable, compact, thermally-constrained all-in-one (or a box of PC/Windows voodoo).

    So here we finally are: they announced it was available for sale on my birthday, which is already a time of year I hate. Yeah, I knew the price already, and I was already pissed, but this just felt like getting my face rubbed in it. And yeah, wise-asses, I know it’s not all about me, but I’m a human being with emotions like everyone else and Apple have pushed my damned buttons.

    I don’t care what kind of justification you guys throw at this price point, it’s illogical fanatic’s apologetics. The complaint about cost would not be happening to this degree if Apple hadn’t dumped many of their own prior customers. The prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, enthusiasts... anyone for whom a compact or all-in-one is the WRONG machine, and who still wants to run Mac OS on a legit Apple computer. Apple has ONE offering in this space and it STARTS at $6000!

    The whole problem here is a self-inflicted PR injury on Apple’s part by leaving out an entire segment of the market that they used to serve. A large chunk of that market was dumped by Apple (I guess we’re irrelevant to their Wall Street aspirations). I’m not the only pissed-off person in that group, and we aren’t “a bunch of whiners”. This constant ad hominem BS slamming of people with legit critical commentary is utter fanatical nonsense and turns the media meme of “Apple cultists” into a reality.

    I would have been able to buy a Mac Pro at the previous pricing (prior cheese-graters started at $2500, and the trash can at $3000); I’d have gone to $3500 for this one, but it’s utterly impossible for me to afford at $6000. This one is TWICE the cost of the last model, and NO, there’s no justification. Comparing it to prior insane pricing for Macs of the deep past does not make sense. Those were cases of technological pushes. Technology has moved on a lot since then. Not only is this technology much more a commodity, this machine isn’t even bleeding edge (as has been pointed out by several other commentators). This machine is not different enough from what is already on the market elsewhere (and what Apple used to offer) to demand this kind of pricing for the BASE MODEL.

    And the way you guys dismissed the insane wheel pricing... If you’re not bothered by Microsoft’s insane pricing for Windows licenses, fine, but speak for yourself and don’t lay that nonsense on the rest of us!!!

    I’m not a Pixar or an Adobe. Maybe I’m not ordinary either. I’m an artist struggling with poverty, while trying to find some way to advance myself in terms of my tools and my work (and maybe make a living off of something eventually). I want to buy ONE computer for MULTIPLE purposes, and I expect it to be capable of running full-tilt, for many years, without throttling or dying of thermal stresses (or both). I’m entirely WILLING TO SAVE AND SPEND a considerable amount of money for an Apple workstation, but Apple have boldly declared that my considerable expense isn’t considerable enough. Only corporations are worth Apple’s attention.

    I’m now an abandoned segment of prior Apple customers and I don’t know WTF Apple expect us to do. Abandon Mac OS so we can have a proper workstation? Build Hackintoshes?? No thank you.

    The mental gymnastics, excuses, ad hominem commentary, and sheer callous and blind arrogance on display here is utterly appalling. 
    This statement I bolded here is one of the most ironic I've seen on the forums in some time. "It’s illogical fanatic’s apologetics"? Seriously? Give me a fucking break, and dial back the hyperbole.

    Seriously, don't kill the messenger. Apple built a workstation, at workstation prices. This is what they intended to do. There is no notable Apple tax on it as we have demonstrated here, and at the high-end with the RAM you need to get to that 1.5TB, there is an Apple discount.

    In regards to the xMac concept, we've addressed this several times, and yet again in the last paragraphs of this piece. This Mac Pro is not that, and it was never intended to be so. I want an xMac, but I'm also aware that I'm not going to get it.
    edited December 2019 StrangeDaysmacpluspluspscooter63williamlondonfastasleepmaxit
  • Reply 106 of 234
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    rain22 said:
    It's overpriced. Let me explain...

    100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 
    99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market. 

    Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
    Nope.

    It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
    This article is about missing the point in Apple’s PR favor. The upset isn’t about Apple selling a corporate-only monster workstation. The upset is that Apple have abandoned a significant percentage of their own customers by making a machine that is only affordable for big business.

    You’re just creating distraction by finding similar Windows workstations to compare against (while making illogical commentary about wheels vs Windows licensing, and acting like those of us angry at Apple for this aren’t also angry at Microsoft for their insane pricing: creating straw man arguments!).

    In doing that, you’re utterly ignoring the real issue: prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, etc CAN BUY a NON-Apple machine that is scaled for their needs and their financial situation. Apple has NO SUCH PRODUCT, and has rebranded the “pro” labeling to excise their own customers (and to useless inconsistency, when seeing what else gets the “pro” word thrown on it). Apple has left people with NO OPTION but to either abandon Mac OS or build hackintoshes. THAT IS THE ISSUE.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondonmike54
  • Reply 107 of 234
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,321administrator
    dysamoria said:
    rain22 said:
    It's overpriced. Let me explain...

    100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 
    99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market. 

    Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
    Nope.

    It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
    This article is about missing the point in Apple’s PR favor. The upset isn’t about Apple selling a corporate-only monster workstation. The upset is that Apple have abandoned a significant percentage of their own customers by making a machine that is only affordable for big business.

    You’re just creating distraction by finding similar Windows workstations to compare against (while making illogical commentary about wheels vs Windows licensing, and acting like those of us angry at Apple for this aren’t also angry at Microsoft for their insane pricing: creating straw man arguments!).

    In doing that, you’re utterly ignoring the real issue: prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, etc CAN BUY a NON-Apple machine that is scaled for their needs and their financial situation. Apple has NO SUCH PRODUCT, and has rebranded the “pro” labeling to excise their own customers (and to useless inconsistency, when seeing what else gets the “pro” word thrown on it). Apple has left people with NO OPTION but to either abandon Mac OS or build hackintoshes. THAT IS THE ISSUE.
    No, that is a separate issue. One we've addressed several times.
    williamlondonfastasleep
  • Reply 108 of 234
    dysamoria said:
    Would you believe that any person goes to bed at night with concerns about the cost of the Mac Pro. Of course not, that is beyond silly.

    The Mac Pro provides no guidance on future computer prices from Apple, or in anyway has an impact on the lives of ordinary people.
    Then I guess I’m “beyond silly” and “not ordinary”, because yes, I’ve had concerns about this machine’s pricing all week! I’ve been trying to come up with some way, some justification for trying to buy Apple’s ONLY proper workstation offering. There’s just no way, but I can’t really move forward in my computer usage until I switch to something modern and NOT COMPACT.

    I need a proper workstation. I’ve been waiting for a proper workstation for about ten years. I’ve been struggling to save for it all that time, so that I could have a proper Apple workstation, running Mac OS, instead of a disposable, compact, thermally-constrained all-in-one (or a box of PC/Windows voodoo).

    So here we finally are: they announced it was available for sale on my birthday, which is already a time of year I hate. Yeah, I knew the price already, and I was already pissed, but this just felt like getting my face rubbed in it. And yeah, wise-asses, I know it’s not all about me, but I’m a human being with emotions like everyone else and Apple have pushed my damned buttons.

    I don’t care what kind of justification you guys throw at this price point, it’s illogical fanatic’s apologetics. The complaint about cost would not be happening to this degree if Apple hadn’t dumped many of their own prior customers. The prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, enthusiasts... anyone for whom a compact or all-in-one is the WRONG machine, and who still wants to run Mac OS on a legit Apple computer. Apple has ONE offering in this space and it STARTS at $6000!

    The whole problem here is a self-inflicted PR injury on Apple’s part by leaving out an entire segment of the market that they used to serve. A large chunk of that market was dumped by Apple (I guess we’re irrelevant to their Wall Street aspirations). I’m not the only pissed-off person in that group, and we aren’t “a bunch of whiners”. This constant ad hominem BS slamming of people with legit critical commentary is utter fanatical nonsense and turns the media meme of “Apple cultists” into a reality.

    I would have been able to buy a Mac Pro at the previous pricing (prior cheese-graters started at $2500, and the trash can at $3000); I’d have gone to $3500 for this one, but it’s utterly impossible for me to afford at $6000. This one is TWICE the cost of the last model, and NO, there’s no justification. Comparing it to prior insane pricing for Macs of the deep past does not make sense. Those were cases of technological pushes. Technology has moved on a lot since then. Not only is this technology much more a commodity, this machine isn’t even bleeding edge (as has been pointed out by several other commentators). This machine is not different enough from what is already on the market elsewhere (and what Apple used to offer) to demand this kind of pricing for the BASE MODEL.

    And the way you guys dismissed the insane wheel pricing... If you’re not bothered by Microsoft’s insane pricing for Windows licenses, fine, but speak for yourself and don’t lay that nonsense on the rest of us!!!

    I’m not a Pixar or an Adobe. Maybe I’m not ordinary either. I’m an artist struggling with poverty, while trying to find some way to advance myself in terms of my tools and my work (and maybe make a living off of something eventually). I want to buy ONE computer for MULTIPLE purposes, and I expect it to be capable of running full-tilt, for many years, without throttling or dying of thermal stresses (or both). I’m entirely WILLING TO SAVE AND SPEND a considerable amount of money for an Apple workstation, but Apple have boldly declared that my considerable expense isn’t considerable enough. Only corporations are worth Apple’s attention.

    I’m now an abandoned segment of prior Apple customers and I don’t know WTF Apple expect us to do. Abandon Mac OS so we can have a proper workstation? Build Hackintoshes?? No thank you.

    The mental gymnastics, excuses, ad hominem commentary, and sheer callous and blind arrogance on display here is utterly appalling
    Just get an iMac 5K or Pro, and stop crying in your cups. Jesus. If you’re not making any money you don’t need a workstation, EOS. 
    macpluspluspscooter63williamlondonfastasleepmaxit
  • Reply 109 of 234

    tht said:
    I think I've heard this argument for every pro mac computer since the G4. This point of view always relies on the reductionist argument that the computer is a pile of parts from a bunch of manufacturers. that the machine just comes into existence by designing and testing itself. (Oh and let's hope the reader ignores all the missed parts and Apple specific technologies included.)

    It's a bit like saying your DIY jet is the same thing as Boeing's if you pop over to Pratt & Whitney and buy all the same parts.
    I’d take it even further. A DIYer is putting themselves in the position of the vender or the OEM, not the buyer, and think they can do a better job. They can do PC part picker and get a really cheap price, but they have to go one step further and sell the system to someone else to see what happens. Not only 1 system, but thousands. To be in the business of selling something like this, it is going to be BOM x 2 or BOM x 3 because the costs of running the business has to be paid for with the revenue from the sales. Ie, if the BOM is $2000, you’ll have to sell it at $4000 to $5000 to actually run the business: to pay salaries, to pay for facilities, to pay for lawyers, to pay for licenses, to pay for what will be a lot of things.

    It’s a kind of fantasy from the DIYer thinking that they can do better than a billion dollar company, here is the computer to prove it, and they pat themselves on the back.
    Well said and great example. It’s like saying “But I can get this furniture from a wholesaler for less!”
  • Reply 110 of 234
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member

    rain22 said:
    MacPro said:
    rain22 said:
    It's overpriced. Let me explain...

    100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 
    99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market. 

    Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
    Have you checked on what major production studios pay for cameras and lenses?  Of course it's too expensive for the smaller guys but it isn't aimed at them.  I suspect Apple probably wanted this for themselves and Apple TV + production too.  Meanwhile, yes it would be nice if there were a mid range tower for the small guys but the iMac i9 5K and iMac Pro  are not too shabby.
    I bought a few of this years maxed out iMac's after they announced this Mac Pro Enterprise. So did my peers in the industry (Branding/Creative). 
    We are also buying a windows box to start looking into migrating as many other agencies already have. 
    After 26 years - it looks like Apple will be shown the door if they don't release a proper Mac for professionals that serves Small/Medium sized businesses in the next 3 years. (After these iMac have been written down). 

    There is no excuse for Apple to cater to .001% of the market and claim "There you go - we love Pro's seeeeee..."
    It's such a massive 'miss' that we are seriously looking at Windows. 



    "After 26 years - it looks like Apple will be shown the door if they don't release a proper Mac for professionals that serves Small/Medium sized businesses in the next 3 years."

    That's called the iMac Pro.
    NO, that’s really NOT called the iMac Pro!! The fact that people keep pointing to the next-most-expensive Apple product just shows how they think: “cost = professional capability”. NO. IT. DOESN’T.

    The iMac Pro is an all-in-one. This is unacceptable for HEAVY and LONG-TERM workflows that use max CPU & GPU for HOURS at a time! It’s unacceptable for workstation incrementing (because it’s glued to a display and storage you have to pay for all over again when you’re ready to replace it with the next model... which is where...?). It’s not even remotely serviceable by in-house tech people.

    The iMac Pro is also clearly in the same exact spot as the 2013 Mac Pro: backed into a thermal constraint corner by way of short-sighted, form-over-function design.
    williamlondonmike54
  • Reply 111 of 234
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,137member
    dysamoria said:
    rain22 said:
    It's overpriced. Let me explain...

    100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 
    99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market. 

    Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
    Nope.

    It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
    This article is about missing the point in Apple’s PR favor. The upset isn’t about Apple selling a corporate-only monster workstation. The upset is that Apple have abandoned a significant percentage of their own customers by making a machine that is only affordable for big business.

    You’re just creating distraction by finding similar Windows workstations to compare against (while making illogical commentary about wheels vs Windows licensing, and acting like those of us angry at Apple for this aren’t also angry at Microsoft for their insane pricing: creating straw man arguments!).

    In doing that, you’re utterly ignoring the real issue: prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, etc CAN BUY a NON-Apple machine that is scaled for their needs and their financial situation. Apple has NO SUCH PRODUCT, and has rebranded the “pro” labeling to excise their own customers (and to useless inconsistency, when seeing what else gets the “pro” word thrown on it). Apple has left people with NO OPTION but to either abandon Mac OS or build hackintoshes. THAT IS THE ISSUE.
    No, that is a separate issue. One we've addressed several times.
    Mike,
    as someone mentioned earlier that most companies doesn’t pay for the web price, will the Mac Pro also be a bit cheaper as well?
  • Reply 112 of 234

    dysamoria said:
    rain22 said:
    It's overpriced. Let me explain...

    100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 
    99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market. 

    Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
    Nope.

    It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
    This article is about missing the point in Apple’s PR favor. The upset isn’t about Apple selling a corporate-only monster workstation. The upset is that Apple have abandoned a significant percentage of their own customers by making a machine that is only affordable for big business.

    You’re just creating distraction by finding similar Windows workstations to compare against (while making illogical commentary about wheels vs Windows licensing, and acting like those of us angry at Apple for this aren’t also angry at Microsoft for their insane pricing: creating straw man arguments!).

    In doing that, you’re utterly ignoring the real issue: prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, etc CAN BUY a NON-Apple machine that is scaled for their needs and their financial situation. Apple has NO SUCH PRODUCT, and has rebranded the “pro” labeling to excise their own customers (and to useless inconsistency, when seeing what else gets the “pro” word thrown on it). Apple has left people with NO OPTION but to either abandon Mac OS or build hackintoshes. THAT IS THE ISSUE.
    Repeat after me: “I am not a victim...I, am not, a victim. I...AM NOT...A VICTIM!” See? Don’t you feel better now? You’re in charge of your own state of mind. Be free. 

    Now, I am a prosumer, a hobbyist, a small businessman, and a pro enterprise developmer. And guess what? The loaded iMac 5K satisfies all of my needs. It’s an amazing machine. The iMac Pro is there if it didn’t. I have options

    Also, you’ve completely missed the point of the wheels vs OS license. The wheels are a $400 optional piece of added hardware, which outrages you. The license is a $300 mandatory add-on, which doesn’t outrage you, and which you don’t have to pay with a MP, you get it for free. So it’s a wash. Actually it’s better than a wash, since the wheels are optional. Do you see the point here? The cost of the optional wheels are about what you get for the free OS which you gotta have. 
    macpluspluswilliamlondonfastasleepmaxit
  • Reply 113 of 234
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,321administrator
    DuhSesame said:
    dysamoria said:
    rain22 said:
    It's overpriced. Let me explain...

    100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 
    99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market. 

    Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
    Nope.

    It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
    This article is about missing the point in Apple’s PR favor. The upset isn’t about Apple selling a corporate-only monster workstation. The upset is that Apple have abandoned a significant percentage of their own customers by making a machine that is only affordable for big business.

    You’re just creating distraction by finding similar Windows workstations to compare against (while making illogical commentary about wheels vs Windows licensing, and acting like those of us angry at Apple for this aren’t also angry at Microsoft for their insane pricing: creating straw man arguments!).

    In doing that, you’re utterly ignoring the real issue: prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, etc CAN BUY a NON-Apple machine that is scaled for their needs and their financial situation. Apple has NO SUCH PRODUCT, and has rebranded the “pro” labeling to excise their own customers (and to useless inconsistency, when seeing what else gets the “pro” word thrown on it). Apple has left people with NO OPTION but to either abandon Mac OS or build hackintoshes. THAT IS THE ISSUE.
    No, that is a separate issue. One we've addressed several times.
    Mike,
    as someone mentioned earlier that most companies doesn’t pay for the web price, will the Mac Pro also be a bit cheaper as well?
    Yes, it will be cheaper, with the discounts depending on what's been added for service contracts, and volumes of units purchased. This said, there's a reason why we took the other workstation's vendors cheapest prices and compared it with the Mac Pro retail. When we do compares like these, we try to give the third parties the benefit of the doubt on pricing, battery life, and whatnot.

    As an example of practical discounting, when MicroCenter got stock of the iMac Pro about three weeks after the first units shipped, they promptly put it on sale for $3999 -- a full $1000 off.
    edited December 2019 fastasleep
  • Reply 114 of 234
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    It's somewhat amusing to see the Apple fans defend Apple's pricing - note I am huge fan and have all their gear. But if we can't even get ourselves to admit this stuff then well, nothing will ever change. It took a lot to get Apple to admit its mistakes with the MacBook Pro rectified with the new ones re Keyboard, Escape key, good GPU now etc.

    This new Mac Pro when specced out on the high end is not over priced - it's comparable or even lower cost compared to HP or DELL in this space.

    Where the Mac Pro IS over priced is on the low end. Given this is a "Pro" device, there is no reason for the low end machine with a 256GB SSD, Radeon 580 Pro to even EXIST! Priced at $5999. 

    There once was a time when you could get a fully loaded Quad G5 for way less. Anyway, I hope Apple releases a Mac Pro tower, perhaps with only 3 slots to justify (for them) a lower cost so that other folks can get in - folks that don't necessarily need the power but want the "hard core" performance.
    EXACTLY! This is the REAL issue!
    williamlondonmike54
  • Reply 115 of 234
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,137member
    DuhSesame said:
    dysamoria said:
    rain22 said:
    It's overpriced. Let me explain...

    100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 
    99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market. 

    Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
    Nope.

    It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
    This article is about missing the point in Apple’s PR favor. The upset isn’t about Apple selling a corporate-only monster workstation. The upset is that Apple have abandoned a significant percentage of their own customers by making a machine that is only affordable for big business.

    You’re just creating distraction by finding similar Windows workstations to compare against (while making illogical commentary about wheels vs Windows licensing, and acting like those of us angry at Apple for this aren’t also angry at Microsoft for their insane pricing: creating straw man arguments!).

    In doing that, you’re utterly ignoring the real issue: prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, etc CAN BUY a NON-Apple machine that is scaled for their needs and their financial situation. Apple has NO SUCH PRODUCT, and has rebranded the “pro” labeling to excise their own customers (and to useless inconsistency, when seeing what else gets the “pro” word thrown on it). Apple has left people with NO OPTION but to either abandon Mac OS or build hackintoshes. THAT IS THE ISSUE.
    No, that is a separate issue. One we've addressed several times.
    Mike,
    as someone mentioned earlier that most companies doesn’t pay for the web price, will the Mac Pro also be a bit cheaper as well?
    Yes, it will be cheaper, with the discounts depending on what's been added for service contracts, and volumes of units purchased. This said, there's a reason why we took the other workstation's vendors cheapest prices and compared it with the Mac Pro retail. When we do compares like these, we try to give the third parties the benefit of the doubt on pricing, battery life, and whatnot.

    As an example of practical discounting, when MicroCenter got stock of the iMac Pro about three weeks after the first units shipped, they promptly put it on sale for $3999 -- a full $1000 off.
    Okay, thanks.

    dysamoria said:
    Would you believe that any person goes to bed at night with concerns about the cost of the Mac Pro. Of course not, that is beyond silly.

    The Mac Pro provides no guidance on future computer prices from Apple, or in anyway has an impact on the lives of ordinary people.
    Then I guess I’m “beyond silly” and “not ordinary”, because yes, I’ve had concerns about this machine’s pricing all week! I’ve been trying to come up with some way, some justification for trying to buy Apple’s ONLY proper workstation offering. There’s just no way, but I can’t really move forward in my computer usage until I switch to something modern and NOT COMPACT.

    I need a proper workstation. I’ve been waiting for a proper workstation for about ten years. I’ve been struggling to save for it all that time, so that I could have a proper Apple workstation, running Mac OS, instead of a disposable, compact, thermally-constrained all-in-one (or a box of PC/Windows voodoo).

    So here we finally are: they announced it was available for sale on my birthday, which is already a time of year I hate. Yeah, I knew the price already, and I was already pissed, but this just felt like getting my face rubbed in it. And yeah, wise-asses, I know it’s not all about me, but I’m a human being with emotions like everyone else and Apple have pushed my damned buttons.

    I don’t care what kind of justification you guys throw at this price point, it’s illogical fanatic’s apologetics. The complaint about cost would not be happening to this degree if Apple hadn’t dumped many of their own prior customers. The prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, enthusiasts... anyone for whom a compact or all-in-one is the WRONG machine, and who still wants to run Mac OS on a legit Apple computer. Apple has ONE offering in this space and it STARTS at $6000!

    The whole problem here is a self-inflicted PR injury on Apple’s part by leaving out an entire segment of the market that they used to serve. A large chunk of that market was dumped by Apple (I guess we’re irrelevant to their Wall Street aspirations). I’m not the only pissed-off person in that group, and we aren’t “a bunch of whiners”. This constant ad hominem BS slamming of people with legit critical commentary is utter fanatical nonsense and turns the media meme of “Apple cultists” into a reality.

    I would have been able to buy a Mac Pro at the previous pricing (prior cheese-graters started at $2500, and the trash can at $3000); I’d have gone to $3500 for this one, but it’s utterly impossible for me to afford at $6000. This one is TWICE the cost of the last model, and NO, there’s no justification. Comparing it to prior insane pricing for Macs of the deep past does not make sense. Those were cases of technological pushes. Technology has moved on a lot since then. Not only is this technology much more a commodity, this machine isn’t even bleeding edge (as has been pointed out by several other commentators). This machine is not different enough from what is already on the market elsewhere (and what Apple used to offer) to demand this kind of pricing for the BASE MODEL.

    And the way you guys dismissed the insane wheel pricing... If you’re not bothered by Microsoft’s insane pricing for Windows licenses, fine, but speak for yourself and don’t lay that nonsense on the rest of us!!!

    I’m not a Pixar or an Adobe. Maybe I’m not ordinary either. I’m an artist struggling with poverty, while trying to find some way to advance myself in terms of my tools and my work (and maybe make a living off of something eventually). I want to buy ONE computer for MULTIPLE purposes, and I expect it to be capable of running full-tilt, for many years, without throttling or dying of thermal stresses (or both). I’m entirely WILLING TO SAVE AND SPEND a considerable amount of money for an Apple workstation, but Apple have boldly declared that my considerable expense isn’t considerable enough. Only corporations are worth Apple’s attention.

    I’m now an abandoned segment of prior Apple customers and I don’t know WTF Apple expect us to do. Abandon Mac OS so we can have a proper workstation? Build Hackintoshes?? No thank you.

    The mental gymnastics, excuses, ad hominem commentary, and sheer callous and blind arrogance on display here is utterly appalling. 
    This statement I bolded here is one of the most ironic I've seen on the forums in some time. "It’s illogical fanatic’s apologetics"? Seriously? Give me a fucking break, and dial back the hyperbole.

    Seriously, don't kill the messenger. Apple built a workstation, at workstation prices. This is what they intended to do. There is no notable Apple tax on it as we have demonstrated here, and at the high-end with the RAM you need to get to that 1.5TB, there is an Apple discount.

    In regards to the xMac concept, we've addressed this several times, and yet again in the last paragraphs of this piece. This Mac Pro is not that, and it was never intended to be so. I want an xMac, but I'm also aware that I'm not going to get it.
    I wonder what was the thing that the xMac could do but not an iMac?  The only one I can think of really is swapping the graphics card.  Intel obsoletes their consumer platforms when they redesign their processors, it won't last long anyway.
  • Reply 116 of 234
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    LKM said:
    This article is kind of missing the point of much of the criticism of this machine.

    When people said "I want a Mac Pro", some people meant a machine like this, but many meant "I want a 2000$-4000$ tower Mac that I can configure with a lot of flexibility for my specific needs, and upgrade in the future". Clearly, this is not that machine. That's fine for the people who wanted what this machine actually is, but it's not fine for the people who were probably the majority of people asking for a machine like this.

    So saying "it's actually worth 6000$" is a meaningless response to the people who wanted a 2K-4K machine. Which they can get when they get a Windows machine, by the way. Which many of them will, because this is now the second time that Apple promised its pro customers that they understood their needs, and then built something that only works for a small minority of them.
    And, YES, a third person on this forum gets it exactly right!! THANK YOU!!!

    Trying to make reasonable critical comments about Apple around here is madness-inducing, because of the sheer number of people willing to blindly and aggressively defend their holy Apple. It’s a question of self-selection: critical thinkers are less prevalent than fanatics, on an Apple-promoting, Apple-enthusiast, Apple-fan website.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondonmike54
  • Reply 117 of 234
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    LKM said:
    This article is kind of missing the point of much of the criticism of this machine.

    When people said "I want a Mac Pro", some people meant a machine like this, but many meant "I want a 2000$-4000$ tower Mac that I can configure with a lot of flexibility for my specific needs, and upgrade in the future". Clearly, this is not that machine. That's fine for the people who wanted what this machine actually is, but it's not fine for the people who were probably the majority of people asking for a machine like this.

    So saying "it's actually worth 6000$" is a meaningless response to the people who wanted a 2K-4K machine. Which they can get when they get a Windows machine, by the way. Which many of them will, because this is now the second time that Apple promised its pro customers that they understood their needs, and then built something that only works for a small minority of them.
    This is addressed in the article.
    Doesn’t matter when the bulk and headlines of your editorials are all about defending Apple and making straw man arguments for “unreasonable criticism”. The spirit behind your article is to miss the point.
    williamlondonmike54
  • Reply 118 of 234
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,321administrator
    dysamoria said:
    LKM said:
    This article is kind of missing the point of much of the criticism of this machine.

    When people said "I want a Mac Pro", some people meant a machine like this, but many meant "I want a 2000$-4000$ tower Mac that I can configure with a lot of flexibility for my specific needs, and upgrade in the future". Clearly, this is not that machine. That's fine for the people who wanted what this machine actually is, but it's not fine for the people who were probably the majority of people asking for a machine like this.

    So saying "it's actually worth 6000$" is a meaningless response to the people who wanted a 2K-4K machine. Which they can get when they get a Windows machine, by the way. Which many of them will, because this is now the second time that Apple promised its pro customers that they understood their needs, and then built something that only works for a small minority of them.
    This is addressed in the article.
    Doesn’t matter when the bulk and headlines of your editorials are all about defending Apple and making straw man arguments for “unreasonable criticism”. The spirit behind your article is to miss the point.
    Because you think something is a straw man, does not make it so. You think we're missing the point, but the gist of this article isn't the same thing that you are talking about, or LKM was. The proof that Apple's workstation pricing is similar and in many cases less, than Windows Workstations is literally in the piece - that's what this article is about.

    https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/06/13/editorial-new-mac-pro-highlights-the-gap-apple-isnt-filling

    Huh. Look at that. We've already addressed what you're talking about. In June.

    We're critical of Apple when it's warranted. It absolutely isn't about Mac Pro pricing when compared to the market segment that it sits in, and not compared versus a standard that a user has arbitrarily set for the perfect machine for them.

    Q: Would you have been happier if the Mac Pro was called the "Mac Workstation" or a return the the xServe name?
    edited December 2019 williamlondonfastasleepmaxit
  • Reply 119 of 234
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    dysamoria said:
    Would you believe that any person goes to bed at night with concerns about the cost of the Mac Pro. Of course not, that is beyond silly.

    The Mac Pro provides no guidance on future computer prices from Apple, or in anyway has an impact on the lives of ordinary people.
    Then I guess I’m “beyond silly” and “not ordinary”, because yes, I’ve had concerns about this machine’s pricing all week! I’ve been trying to come up with some way, some justification for trying to buy Apple’s ONLY proper workstation offering. There’s just no way, but I can’t really move forward in my computer usage until I switch to something modern and NOT COMPACT.

    I need a proper workstation. I’ve been waiting for a proper workstation for about ten years. I’ve been struggling to save for it all that time, so that I could have a proper Apple workstation, running Mac OS, instead of a disposable, compact, thermally-constrained all-in-one (or a box of PC/Windows voodoo).

    So here we finally are: they announced it was available for sale on my birthday, which is already a time of year I hate. Yeah, I knew the price already, and I was already pissed, but this just felt like getting my face rubbed in it. And yeah, wise-asses, I know it’s not all about me, but I’m a human being with emotions like everyone else and Apple have pushed my damned buttons.

    I don’t care what kind of justification you guys throw at this price point, it’s illogical fanatic’s apologetics. The complaint about cost would not be happening to this degree if Apple hadn’t dumped many of their own prior customers. The prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, enthusiasts... anyone for whom a compact or all-in-one is the WRONG machine, and who still wants to run Mac OS on a legit Apple computer. Apple has ONE offering in this space and it STARTS at $6000!

    The whole problem here is a self-inflicted PR injury on Apple’s part by leaving out an entire segment of the market that they used to serve. A large chunk of that market was dumped by Apple (I guess we’re irrelevant to their Wall Street aspirations). I’m not the only pissed-off person in that group, and we aren’t “a bunch of whiners”. This constant ad hominem BS slamming of people with legit critical commentary is utter fanatical nonsense and turns the media meme of “Apple cultists” into a reality.

    I would have been able to buy a Mac Pro at the previous pricing (prior cheese-graters started at $2500, and the trash can at $3000); I’d have gone to $3500 for this one, but it’s utterly impossible for me to afford at $6000. This one is TWICE the cost of the last model, and NO, there’s no justification. Comparing it to prior insane pricing for Macs of the deep past does not make sense. Those were cases of technological pushes. Technology has moved on a lot since then. Not only is this technology much more a commodity, this machine isn’t even bleeding edge (as has been pointed out by several other commentators). This machine is not different enough from what is already on the market elsewhere (and what Apple used to offer) to demand this kind of pricing for the BASE MODEL.

    And the way you guys dismissed the insane wheel pricing... If you’re not bothered by Microsoft’s insane pricing for Windows licenses, fine, but speak for yourself and don’t lay that nonsense on the rest of us!!!

    I’m not a Pixar or an Adobe. Maybe I’m not ordinary either. I’m an artist struggling with poverty, while trying to find some way to advance myself in terms of my tools and my work (and maybe make a living off of something eventually). I want to buy ONE computer for MULTIPLE purposes, and I expect it to be capable of running full-tilt, for many years, without throttling or dying of thermal stresses (or both). I’m entirely WILLING TO SAVE AND SPEND a considerable amount of money for an Apple workstation, but Apple have boldly declared that my considerable expense isn’t considerable enough. Only corporations are worth Apple’s attention.

    I’m now an abandoned segment of prior Apple customers and I don’t know WTF Apple expect us to do. Abandon Mac OS so we can have a proper workstation? Build Hackintoshes?? No thank you.

    The mental gymnastics, excuses, ad hominem commentary, and sheer callous and blind arrogance on display here is utterly appalling
    Just get an iMac 5K or Pro, and stop crying in your cups. Jesus. If you’re not making any money you don’t need a workstation, EOS. 
    Someone explain to me why all these guys think an all-in-one (or some other stupidly compact machine), is an acceptable workstation for heavy workloads!! This is meme-level mindless response territory! Talk about drinking the PR koolaid.
    williamlondonmike54
  • Reply 120 of 234
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member


    dysamoria said:
    rain22 said:
    It's overpriced. Let me explain...

    100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 
    99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 
    Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market. 

    Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
    Nope.

    It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
    This article is about missing the point in Apple’s PR favor. The upset isn’t about Apple selling a corporate-only monster workstation. The upset is that Apple have abandoned a significant percentage of their own customers by making a machine that is only affordable for big business.

    You’re just creating distraction by finding similar Windows workstations to compare against (while making illogical commentary about wheels vs Windows licensing, and acting like those of us angry at Apple for this aren’t also angry at Microsoft for their insane pricing: creating straw man arguments!).

    In doing that, you’re utterly ignoring the real issue: prosumers, hobbyists, small businesses, etc CAN BUY a NON-Apple machine that is scaled for their needs and their financial situation. Apple has NO SUCH PRODUCT, and has rebranded the “pro” labeling to excise their own customers (and to useless inconsistency, when seeing what else gets the “pro” word thrown on it). Apple has left people with NO OPTION but to either abandon Mac OS or build hackintoshes. THAT IS THE ISSUE.
    Also, you’ve completely missed the point of the wheels vs OS license. The wheels are a $400 optional piece of added hardware, which outrages you. The license is a $300 mandatory add-on, which doesn’t outrage you,
    What are you talking about??? YES that OS licensing price outrages me!! I said as much in other comments!! Instead of trying to find ways of talking down to me, or dismissing me as an irrelevance, maybe you should pay more attention to the content of my comments.
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
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