Scotland police don't seem to have any problem getting data off locked iPhones

Posted:
in General Discussion
Starting on January 20, 2020, Scotland police will begin using "cyber kiosks" to extract and examine the contents of smartphones -- including iPhones -- that have data relevant to investigations or accidents.

Cyber Kiosk


The kiosks are desktop computers located in police stations that allow security officers to look through the contents of a mobile device rapidly. The data that can be extracted includes, but is not limited to, contacts, text messages, pictures, videos, plus text and application files.





These kiosks are highly scrutinized by several individuals and agencies for accountability of data and hardware. The devices of victims, suspects, and witnesses could all be extracted through these kiosks, regardless if the device has been volunteered or seized in the course of an investigation.

Scotland law already allows for law enforcement to take the smartphones of those involved in crimes and hold them indefinitely. Deputy Chief Constable Malcolm Graham has said that the kiosks will ideally speed up the process.

"By quickly identifying devices which do and do not contain evidence, we can minimise the intrusion on people's lives and provide a better service to the public," reads a statement on the Police Scotland website.

The kiosks draw a parallel to similar situations in the U.S., where law enforcement has increasingly tried to access digital data from smartphones, despite public wariness.

Attorney General William Barr with President Donald Trump
Attorney General William Barr with President Donald Trump


On January 13, the FBI and Attorney General William Barr demanded that Apple help unlock two iPhones believed to be owned by Mohammed Saeed Alshamrami. Alshamrani is suspected to be the shooter at an attack on the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Florida.

The FBI has been granted permission to search the devices but has sought Apple's assistance in unlocking the smartphones, including one that was reportedly shot by its owner, in a bid to find more evidence. Apple declined to provide more help beyond what it has already given the investigation, as it would effectively undermine the security of its hardware and software.

Barr has claimed that Apple had provided no "substantive assistance" to the investigation. Apple had provided access to data from Alshamrami's iCloud account within 24 hours of the request, but nothing from the device's local storage, as it was not privy to that information.

The FBI and other security agencies have previously sought the assistance of third-party firms in earlier investigations involving iPhones. Most famously, this includes when the FBI hired Cellebrite to unlock the iPhone of the gunman involved in the San Bernardino case. The agency was reported to have spent $900,000 on the extraction, and said nothing about what it obtained.

However, separate law enforcement sources later said that the iPhone had yielded no pertinent information.

Since the San Bernardino case, Apple has created a page on its website specifically for law enforcement officials to request what data the company has.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 24
    Worth watching the 3 minute video.  It appears that Scotland is trying to do the right thing in being transparent and minimizing violation of privacy.  No hint at how they are able to crack encrypted devices, but that's not the point of the video.  I find it amusing that the end of the video says "for more information visit the Scotland Police website" without providing a domain name, let alone a URL.  I suppose that's what search engines are for. https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/police-scotland/specialistcrime-division/cybercrime-investigations-digital-forensics/cyber-kiosks

    Based on that link, they do acknowledge that they won't be able to access all phones:

    Q11. Will ‘Cyber Kiosks’ be used for all mobile telephone and tablet examinations in Scotland?
    There are a number of specific circumstances where the use of Cyber Kiosks would not be appropriate, such as:
    • The device does not work and is thought to be critical to the enquiry.
    • The password for the device cannot be overcome (after consultation with cybercrime).
    • The case involves child abuse images.
    • The investigation relates to a potential internal or disciplinary enquiry.
    • The data is known to be on the device (e.g. a witness has told the police the evidence in on the device)
    • The data extraction is extremely large and cannot be managed on a Cyber Kiosk.




    cy_starkmanmelodyof1974jas99MacQcjony0wonkothesanewatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 24
    "If it's not Scottish is crap". My question is what if the phone doesn't turn on can the information still be extracted?
    edited January 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 24
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    "If it's not Scottish is crap". My question is what if the phone doesn't turn on can the information still be extracted?
    The answer is yes, probably. Let's face it, while Apple is ahead of the game when it comes to privacy and security it's not perfect. No digital consumer device is perfect when it comes to security and privacy. Governments and the bad guys have tons of tools at their disposal to get what they want, when they want it. All this talk about backdoors is about making it easier, not better for the authorities. All of your data is accessible if you live online at all, no matter what tricks you use to protect it. The only path to real privacy is to be off the grid and be completely cash based. Even then, you cannot escape the eyes of the government. They will find you if they need to. It may take years but they will find you. If that sounds depressing, well, unfortunately it is.
    cornchipmelodyof1974manfred zornwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 24
    Worth watching the 3 minute video.  It appears that Scotland is trying to do the right thing in being transparent and minimizing violation of privacy.  No hint at how they are able to crack encrypted devices, but that's not the point of the video.  I find it amusing that the end of the video says "for more information visit the Scotland Police website" without providing a domain name, let alone a URL.  I suppose that's what search engines are for. https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/police-scotland/specialistcrime-division/cybercrime-investigations-digital-forensics/cyber-kiosks

    Based on that link, they do acknowledge that they won't be able to access all phones:

    Q11. Will ‘Cyber Kiosks’ be used for all mobile telephone and tablet examinations in Scotland?
    There are a number of specific circumstances where the use of Cyber Kiosks would not be appropriate, such as:
    • The device does not work and is thought to be critical to the enquiry.
    • The password for the device cannot be overcome (after consultation with cybercrime).
    • The case involves child abuse images.
    • The investigation relates to a potential internal or disciplinary enquiry.
    • The data is known to be on the device (e.g. a witness has told the police the evidence in on the device)
    • The data extraction is extremely large and cannot be managed on a Cyber Kiosk.




    Um... any security experts here that can elaborate on the bolded part: if the device is password protected, can it be overcome except similarly to the FBI using Cellebrite and such?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 24
    If Apple has in its possession a hack that allows an older iPhone to be decrypted, can they honestly say it is not possible for them to unlock or extract data from that iPhone?
  • Reply 6 of 24
    cornchipcornchip Posts: 1,950member
    lkrupp said:
    "If it's not Scottish is crap". My question is what if the phone doesn't turn on can the information still be extracted?
    The answer is yes, probably. Let's face it, while Apple is ahead of the game when it comes to privacy and security it's not perfect. No digital consumer device is perfect when it comes to security and privacy. Governments and the bad guys have tons of tools at their disposal to get what they want, when they want it. All this talk about backdoors is about making it easier, not better for the authorities. All of your data is accessible if you live online at all, no matter what tricks you use to protect it. The only path to real privacy is to be off the grid and be completely cash based. Even then, you cannot escape the eyes of the government. They will find you if they need to. It may take years but they will find you. If that sounds depressing, well, unfortunately it is.
    I just got a text yesterday from some rando asking if I’d like to sell my house (provided correct address). I asked how he got my info and he said he had access to various databases but ultimately “wasn’t sure”. So God only knows how much of my info is out there & easily accessible. Depressing indeed.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 24
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    If Apple has in its possession a hack that allows an older iPhone to be decrypted, can they honestly say it is not possible for them to unlock or extract data from that iPhone?
    I don't understand your query. Are you suggesting that Apple can decrypt any "older iPhone" with your "if" statement? What iPhone does "that" represent in your question? All these methods seem to be brute force attempts to discover the PIN or passcode, not a backdoor to bypass the device's encryption. I can't imagine Apple building that into their devices.
    mwhitewatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 24
    cornchip said:
    lkrupp said:
    "If it's not Scottish is crap". My question is what if the phone doesn't turn on can the information still be extracted?
    The answer is yes, probably. Let's face it, while Apple is ahead of the game when it comes to privacy and security it's not perfect. No digital consumer device is perfect when it comes to security and privacy. Governments and the bad guys have tons of tools at their disposal to get what they want, when they want it. All this talk about backdoors is about making it easier, not better for the authorities. All of your data is accessible if you live online at all, no matter what tricks you use to protect it. The only path to real privacy is to be off the grid and be completely cash based. Even then, you cannot escape the eyes of the government. They will find you if they need to. It may take years but they will find you. If that sounds depressing, well, unfortunately it is.
    I just got a text yesterday from some rando asking if I’d like to sell my house (provided correct address). I asked how he got my info and he said he had access to various databases but ultimately “wasn’t sure”. So God only knows how much of my info is out there & easily accessible. Depressing indeed.
    Off topic: Short answer: mostly all of it.  Apple's commitment to privacy, though admirable, really doesn't lessen the amount of your actionable info that is hoovered up.  That's not a knock against Apple.  It's a consequence of our hyper-connected society.  On tech sites, we tend to focus on Google and Facebook and their data gathering for ad placements.  Meanwhile, the real-real... it rarely registers in our collective consciousness.  The real-real is the world of data brokers.  Almost no part of your life is inaccessible to these people.  So God isn't the only one who knows how much of your -and mine... and his... and hers- info is out there.  Lots of companies know, and that is indeed depressing.  Here's a short article detailing some of the shenanigans that have gone on and continue to go on unabated. https://www.fastcompany.com/90310803/here-are-the-data-brokers-quietly-buying-and-selling-your-personal-information

    On topic: I used to say it as a snarky aside, but now it seems more a stark reality to me.  I think the feds are running a false flag operation on the populace.  "We can't get in, we can't get in, oh noes, we can't get in."  What I think they really mean is "it's harder to get in than we'd like it to be and a backdoor would increase our efficiencies."  If the act is trivial to do, then it will be trivially done, imo.  
    randominternetpersonbeeble42jony0gatorguy
  • Reply 9 of 24
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,095member
    I know (and accept) that no device is 100% secure.  There's literally an entire industry dedicated to cracking iPhone security.  It comes down to a whack-a-mole with them.  I know that the iPhone is the most secure of smartphones - especially when compared to the king of no-security that is Android.

    All I can hope for is that Apple continues to find these vulnerabilities and close them.  Sure, other ones pop up or are discovered, but security is a journey, never a destination.  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 24
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,861administrator
    Worth watching the 3 minute video.  It appears that Scotland is trying to do the right thing in being transparent and minimizing violation of privacy.  No hint at how they are able to crack encrypted devices, but that's not the point of the video.  I find it amusing that the end of the video says "for more information visit the Scotland Police website" without providing a domain name, let alone a URL.  I suppose that's what search engines are for. https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/police-scotland/specialistcrime-division/cybercrime-investigations-digital-forensics/cyber-kiosks

    Based on that link, they do acknowledge that they won't be able to access all phones:

    Q11. Will ‘Cyber Kiosks’ be used for all mobile telephone and tablet examinations in Scotland?
    There are a number of specific circumstances where the use of Cyber Kiosks would not be appropriate, such as:
    • The device does not work and is thought to be critical to the enquiry.
    • The password for the device cannot be overcome (after consultation with cybercrime).
    • The case involves child abuse images.
    • The investigation relates to a potential internal or disciplinary enquiry.
    • The data is known to be on the device (e.g. a witness has told the police the evidence in on the device)
    • The data extraction is extremely large and cannot be managed on a Cyber Kiosk.




    Um... any security experts here that can elaborate on the bolded part: if the device is password protected, can it be overcome except similarly to the FBI using Cellebrite and such?
    The Scotland police say that they can get "most" device passwords from the kiosk.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 24
    I seriously doubt Police Scotland’s ability to get past anything other than a basic numerical passcode using brute force. They’re not renowned for their cutting edge technology!
  • Reply 12 of 24
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,861administrator
    dirker said:
    I seriously doubt Police Scotland’s ability to get past anything other than a basic numerical passcode using brute force. They’re not renowned for their cutting edge technology!
    This is not a solution developed in-house. It appears to be a mostly automated console purchased from one of the firms that US law enforcement buys solutions from.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 24
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,927member
    By quickly identifying devices which do and do not contain evidence, we can minimise the intrusion on people's lives”
    Beautifully contradictory.
    anantksundarampulseimageselijahgnetroxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 24
    I think Police Scotland bought Israeli Cellebrite kiosks 2 years ago.
  • Reply 15 of 24
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,648member
    This seems not specific for iPhones.
    They simply wont be able to extract encrypted data from iPhones.
    Other phones are wide open of course.
    I think its stupid and unethical of ‘law enforcement’ to require Apple unlock specific iPhone data.
    Its stupid because encryption is designed to be ‘unbreakable’, like asking water to go uphill.    
    Its unethical because a lot of people rely on absolute data safety because of human rights violating regime's (like China, Iran or the USA) and dare consequences of unlocking like death, maiming, prison, severe repercussions, etc.        
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 24
    sandorsandor Posts: 658member
    cornchip said:
    lkrupp said:
    "If it's not Scottish is crap". My question is what if the phone doesn't turn on can the information still be extracted?
    The answer is yes, probably. Let's face it, while Apple is ahead of the game when it comes to privacy and security it's not perfect. No digital consumer device is perfect when it comes to security and privacy. Governments and the bad guys have tons of tools at their disposal to get what they want, when they want it. All this talk about backdoors is about making it easier, not better for the authorities. All of your data is accessible if you live online at all, no matter what tricks you use to protect it. The only path to real privacy is to be off the grid and be completely cash based. Even then, you cannot escape the eyes of the government. They will find you if they need to. It may take years but they will find you. If that sounds depressing, well, unfortunately it is.
    I just got a text yesterday from some rando asking if I’d like to sell my house (provided correct address). I asked how he got my info and he said he had access to various databases but ultimately “wasn’t sure”. So God only knows how much of my info is out there & easily accessible. Depressing indeed.
    Public records hold this information. 
  • Reply 17 of 24
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    cornchip said:
    lkrupp said:
    "If it's not Scottish is crap". My question is what if the phone doesn't turn on can the information still be extracted?
    The answer is yes, probably. Let's face it, while Apple is ahead of the game when it comes to privacy and security it's not perfect. No digital consumer device is perfect when it comes to security and privacy. Governments and the bad guys have tons of tools at their disposal to get what they want, when they want it. All this talk about backdoors is about making it easier, not better for the authorities. All of your data is accessible if you live online at all, no matter what tricks you use to protect it. The only path to real privacy is to be off the grid and be completely cash based. Even then, you cannot escape the eyes of the government. They will find you if they need to. It may take years but they will find you. If that sounds depressing, well, unfortunately it is.
    I just got a text yesterday from some rando asking if I’d like to sell my house (provided correct address). I asked how he got my info and he said he had access to various databases but ultimately “wasn’t sure”. So God only knows how much of my info is out there & easily accessible. Depressing indeed.
    I have received similar voice mails and texts.  It’s not a scam per se.  Just tell them you are not interested in selling and they will go away.

    If you’re on Zillow and you have claimed ownership of a house, your name and number are out there for these people to see.
    edited January 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 24
    neilmneilm Posts: 987member
    I see nothing in any of the linked sources that says these kiosks are intended to, or can, crack a password protected phone. The most relevant text on the subject seems to be this (see https://www.scotland.police.uk/assets/pdf/138327/598381/digital-examination-consent-faqs):

    "Q12. Can the police bypass PIN codes and passwords?

    Sometimes. The ability to bypass security measures such as PIN codes varies depending on the make and model of the device, the version of the operating system being used, and any security measures enforced by the manufacturer. A specific answer regarding this can only be given on a case-by-case basis. PIN codes or passwords will only be bypassed where absolutely necessary to progress the investigation."

    The kiosk's main purpose seems to be to provide quick and effective software tools to search a cellphone to which the police have already gained access by other means (owner consent, surveillance/observation, information received, unrelated cracking or jailbreaking software, etc.).

    TL/DR version: These are not magic cracking kiosks.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 24
    If Apple has in its possession a hack that allows an older iPhone to be decrypted, can they honestly say it is not possible for them to unlock or extract data from that iPhone?
    It’s not their job to do that. They cooperate with legal court orders, but they don’t carry out law enforcement investigations.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 24
    lkrupp said:
    "If it's not Scottish is crap". My question is what if the phone doesn't turn on can the information still be extracted?
    The answer is yes, probably. Let's face it, while Apple is ahead of the game when it comes to privacy and security it's not perfect. No digital consumer device is perfect when it comes to security and privacy. Governments and the bad guys have tons of tools at their disposal to get what they want, when they want it. All this talk about backdoors is about making it easier, not better for the authorities. All of your data is accessible if you live online at all, no matter what tricks you use to protect it. The only path to real privacy is to be off the grid and be completely cash based. Even then, you cannot escape the eyes of the government. They will find you if they need to. It may take years but they will find you. If that sounds depressing, well, unfortunately it is.
    https://youtu.be/7YvAYIJSSZY
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