I think, not being able to locally produce goods, was a self fullfilling prophecy of asshole (it) managers back then driven by squeezing the last penny out of almost loss making products.
But we have several examples of attempts to build in America that failed. It wasn’t because of profitability or margins, it was because of product quality and expertise in manufacturing, which the United States lacked because it refuse to invest in people and plant. Granting massive tax breaks clearly wasn’t enough. The US should have invested in tech and it didn’t.
It should have invested in 5G but it didn’t. And now it should be investing in clean energy and it isn’t. Imaging how that will work out.
Wouldn't that be the job of private enterprise rather than the "gubment" to invest in plant and people?
FWIW I think you're ignoring the valuable tech that our government has funded: Siri, GPS, the internet, Unix (Multics) to name some major ones, and the US agencies were early in on things like maps, the TOR browser, even a company who mitigates the damage from DDoS attacks. Heck the US government had a hand in funding nearly all the root technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone from location (GPS) to its touch display, search and communication thru the internet, and creation of what became Apple's voice-activated assistant.
Well you kind of answered your own question. If the USA hadn’t invested in internet tech and software, funding university work on OS, browsers, IP, etc, it likely wouldn’t be leading Internet and software everywhere but China (which blocked US software firms like Google, Facebook, etc).
The point here was that the US didn’t similarly back or support high tech manufacturing.
What kind of manufacturing do you think the US Government should put in place? I'm quite serious.
if you come back with "more tax credits' then you're asking for the lowest common denominator and that's where some foreign locale will always cost less, taxes or not. Personally I think to drive American companies to invest in their own manufacturing plants for their own products then make it stupid expensive to import those products from China in particular. More tariffs and only a rare exception, certainly not for big tech products. That of course comes with a separate set of problems.
From an outsider's perspective: in the 1950s and 1960s the US was focussed on manufacturing in a big way, boosted by things like government initiatives such as the space race and the widespread public recognition that superior technology was a major factor in winning the second Great War. Then in the 1970s, for a number of reasons, manufacturing started to be seen as a demeaning industry to work in - only the uneducated would choose it, many of those who entered it didn't want to be there, the benefits hard-won by unions became a crutch that was abused by members who didn't enjoy the work - and the government chose to focus public attention on the "War on Communism" rather than on self-improvement.
By the 1980s (and this is the time period I can speak to a little more authoritatively, given my age), information technology was the new hotness, the silver bullet that would transform society. If you weren't interested in IT, then you needed to be in finance. Making money through abstract activities like corporate buyouts and restructuring was the smart way to get rich, and you could do it fast - no more schlepping to a factory job for decades to retire on a decent pension, that sort of time investment was for losers!
And governments throughout the western world believed that story, while governments in third world countries focused on building manufacturing expertise knowing that keeping a populace building things to improve their lives would... well, improve their lives. People whose lives are getting better don't engage in revolutions.
For me, the US (and other nations) have lost the sense of community that epitomises nationhood. More and more, government policies seem to be allowing predation on particular segments of the population rather than protecting the most vulnerable. The quote from Senator Kennedy about a rising tide lifting all boats is seen as solely as an aphorism when it can also be viewed as an admonishment. And with the threat of global climate change, that tide is starting to literally rise - yet the prevailing opinion seems to be "well, as long as I'm not below the high water mark..."
Government policy needs to remind us every day to improve ourselves as individuals, as teams, as communities, as nations. It needs to let us know what we should do and what we should not do. It needs to be guided by careful analysis of existing trends and reasonable predictions about the future rather than inflaming public opinion for a short-term goal. And it needs to support all of its citizens that are struggling to adapt to change (which seems to be a growing percentage of the population).
So, I think that asking about details like what sort of manufacturing should be supported by the US government is something that can take a back seat while the issue of what US society should be like is decided.
Shipping thousands of parts from many countries half a world away to assemble in the US is super expensive compared to choosing a location where most of the parts are made and just shipping the finished product to the US. This is a no brainer.
If you want to bring back manufacturing to the US, you must bring back everyone including the parts and component suppliers, train a new generation of manufacturing engineers and technicians,build a distribution system, establish auxillary services and improve access to raw/direct materials etc. It would take decades.
I think it's hard to argue with the following points:
1. Manufacturing the iPhone at its current scale takes a huge number of workers. 2. China has those workers, along with needed infrastructure to support manufacturing 3. Only India has the number of workers, but their infrastructure sucks 4. There is a hard limit on the extent to which humans can be replaced by machines. GM and Apple learned this in the 80s, Tesla learned it with the Model 3; Darth Sidious learned it with the droid invasion of Naboo.
So, yeah, Apple can't really avoid manufacturing in china.
You seriously trying to compare the state of automation in the 1980s to today’s state of automation?
Apple could invest $200 billion into developing robotic manufacturing tech and not only use it to produce iPhones but also sell it as technology to others, or Apple could blow $200 billion on stock buy backs. The former requires effort, the latter is easy.
That was Elon Musk's attitude --- surely it's improved since the 80s! Surely I know better than the entire global automotive industry!
Oops. Not so much.
Sounds like you're another Musk. Go ahead and try it. Let us know how it works out. Prove me wrong, kid, prove me wrong!
Man, you just gave me the biggest compliment of my life, calling me Musk and especially calling me kid!
As for being able to build cars with robots, back in 1998, I visited a Mercedes plant in Tuscaloosa, AL (where they built SUVs). I saw with my own eyes a completely robotic assembly line building vehicles in front of me with no intervention by the humans. Again, this was in 1998.
So, if Mercedes could build SUVs in 1998 (in fact, they started it in 1996 or 1997) with robotic manufacturing lines, I'm sure the technology is ready now (22 years later) to build iPhones with robots. Of course, it requires research and investment. The positive thing about it would be that Apple could open a new source of revenue being a robotic manufacturing technology provider and licenser for other companies.
I think it's hard to argue with the following points:
1. Manufacturing the iPhone at its current scale takes a huge number of workers. 2. China has those workers, along with needed infrastructure to support manufacturing 3. Only India has the number of workers, but their infrastructure sucks 4. There is a hard limit on the extent to which humans can be replaced by machines. GM and Apple learned this in the 80s, Tesla learned it with the Model 3; Darth Sidious learned it with the droid invasion of Naboo.
So, yeah, Apple can't really avoid manufacturing in china.
You seriously trying to compare the state of automation in the 1980s to today’s state of automation?
Apple could invest $200 billion into developing robotic manufacturing tech and not only use it to produce iPhones but also sell it as technology to others, or Apple could blow $200 billion on stock buy backs. The former requires effort, the latter is easy.
That was Elon Musk's attitude --- surely it's improved since the 80s! Surely I know better than the entire global automotive industry!
Oops. Not so much.
Sounds like you're another Musk. Go ahead and try it. Let us know how it works out. Prove me wrong, kid, prove me wrong!
Man, you just gave me the biggest compliment of my life, calling me Musk and especially calling me kid!
As for being able to build cars with robots, back in 1998, I visited a Mercedes plant in Tuscaloosa, AL (where they built SUVs). I saw with my own eyes a completely robotic assembly line building vehicles in front of me with no intervention by the humans. Again, this was in 1998.
So, if Mercedes could build SUVs in 1998 (in fact, they started it in 1996 or 1997) with robotic manufacturing lines, I'm sure the technology is ready now (22 years later) to build iPhones with robots. Of course, it requires research and investment. The positive thing about it would be that Apple could open a new source of revenue being a robotic manufacturing technology provider and licenser for other companies.
Yeh, China haters are becoming as common as the Corona Virus -- and they are equally as infectious and deadly.
They rely on modern Republican political strategies exploiting smear campaigns based mostly on half-truths spun into lies.
One has to wonder why this political campaign got started and continues to run? Certainly Trump kicked it off with his failed Trade War and fear mongering of National Security concerns.
But why has it continued?
-- Is it to distract from America's real enemy (Russia) as they continue their attacks on our elections?
-- Is it fear that China will soon over take the U.S. as the world's leading economy?
If it is the latter, the U.S. would be well advised to improve its competitive position rather than relying on smear campaigns. Those making significant decisions (like Apple or the EU carriers) will base their decisions on facts and truth rather than politically motivated smear campaigns. They will move on leaving the U.S. behind looking foolish.
I think it's hard to argue with the following points:
1. Manufacturing the iPhone at its current scale takes a huge number of workers. 2. China has those workers, along with needed infrastructure to support manufacturing 3. Only India has the number of workers, but their infrastructure sucks 4. There is a hard limit on the extent to which humans can be replaced by machines. GM and Apple learned this in the 80s, Tesla learned it with the Model 3; Darth Sidious learned it with the droid invasion of Naboo.
So, yeah, Apple can't really avoid manufacturing in china.
You seriously trying to compare the state of automation in the 1980s to today’s state of automation?
Apple could invest $200 billion into developing robotic manufacturing tech and not only use it to produce iPhones but also sell it as technology to others, or Apple could blow $200 billion on stock buy backs. The former requires effort, the latter is easy.
That was Elon Musk's attitude --- surely it's improved since the 80s! Surely I know better than the entire global automotive industry!
Oops. Not so much.
Sounds like you're another Musk. Go ahead and try it. Let us know how it works out. Prove me wrong, kid, prove me wrong!
Man, you just gave me the biggest compliment of my life, calling me Musk and especially calling me kid!
As for being able to build cars with robots, back in 1998, I visited a Mercedes plant in Tuscaloosa, AL (where they built SUVs). I saw with my own eyes a completely robotic assembly line building vehicles in front of me with no intervention by the humans. Again, this was in 1998.
So, if Mercedes could build SUVs in 1998 (in fact, they started it in 1996 or 1997) with robotic manufacturing lines, I'm sure the technology is ready now (22 years later) to build iPhones with robots. Of course, it requires research and investment. The positive thing about it would be that Apple could open a new source of revenue being a robotic manufacturing technology provider and licenser for other companies.
That's what other manufacturers have figured out as well: some operations are better accomplished by humans.
It turns out humans have some pretty nifty abilities.
consider this thought experiment — take a typical, able-bodied adult human, give them a standard 60 watt bulb. Send them into a house they’ve never been in before with instructions to find the table lamp with the burned out bulb and replace it.
The human can probably do it.
I’m skeptical that task could be automated, even with billions of dollars and years of effort
Actually he’s right and I said that without using half the available bandwidth in the USA. Apples reliance on China is totally motivated by greed and totally ignores the horrors of the regime in China.
When did they start ripping kids out of their parents arms and putting them in cages?
Yeh, China haters are becoming as common as the Corona Virus -- and they are equally as infectious and deadly.
They rely on modern Republican political strategies exploiting smear campaigns based mostly on half-truths spun into lies.
One has to wonder why this political campaign got started and continues to run? Certainly Trump kicked it off with his failed Trade War and fear mongering of National Security concerns...
Obama to China: Stop hacking U.S. companies, or else
I think, not being able to locally produce goods, was a self fullfilling prophecy of asshole (it) managers back then driven by squeezing the last penny out of almost loss making products.
But we have several examples of attempts to build in America that failed. It wasn’t because of profitability or margins, it was because of product quality and expertise in manufacturing, which the United States lacked because it refuse to invest in people and plant. Granting massive tax breaks clearly wasn’t enough. The US should have invested in tech and it didn’t.
It should have invested in 5G but it didn’t. And now it should be investing in clean energy and it isn’t. Imaging how that will work out.
Wouldn't that be the job of private enterprise rather than the "gubment" to invest in plant and people?
FWIW I think you're ignoring the valuable tech that our government has funded: Siri, GPS, the internet, Unix (Multics) to name some major ones, and the US agencies were early in on things like maps, the TOR browser, even a company who mitigates the damage from DDoS attacks. Heck the US government had a hand in funding nearly all the root technology that makes the iPhone a smartphone from location (GPS) to its touch display, search and communication thru the internet, and creation of what became Apple's voice-activated assistant.
Well you kind of answered your own question. If the USA hadn’t invested in internet tech and software, funding university work on OS, browsers, IP, etc, it likely wouldn’t be leading Internet and software everywhere but China (which blocked US software firms like Google, Facebook, etc).
The point here was that the US didn’t similarly back or support high tech manufacturing.
What kind of manufacturing do you think the US Government should put in place? I'm quite serious.
if you come back with "more tax credits' then you're asking for the lowest common denominator and that's where some foreign locale will always cost less, taxes or not. Personally I think to drive American companies to invest in their own manufacturing plants for their own products then make it stupid expensive to import those products from China in particular. More tariffs and only a rare exception, certainly not for big tech products. That of course comes with a separate set of problems.
From an outsider's perspective: in the 1950s and 1960s the US was focussed on manufacturing in a big way, boosted by things like government initiatives such as the space race and the widespread public recognition that superior technology was a major factor in winning the second Great War. Then in the 1970s, for a number of reasons, manufacturing started to be seen as a demeaning industry to work in - only the uneducated would choose it, many of those who entered it didn't want to be there, the benefits hard-won by unions became a crutch that was abused by members who didn't enjoy the work - and the government chose to focus public attention on the "War on Communism" rather than on self-improvement.
By the 1980s (and this is the time period I can speak to a little more authoritatively, given my age), information technology was the new hotness, the silver bullet that would transform society. If you weren't interested in IT, then you needed to be in finance. Making money through abstract activities like corporate buyouts and restructuring was the smart way to get rich, and you could do it fast - no more schlepping to a factory job for decades to retire on a decent pension, that sort of time investment was for losers!
And governments throughout the western world believed that story, while governments in third world countries focused on building manufacturing expertise knowing that keeping a populace building things to improve their lives would... well, improve their lives. People whose lives are getting better don't engage in revolutions.
For me, the US (and other nations) have lost the sense of community that epitomises nationhood. More and more, government policies seem to be allowing predation on particular segments of the population rather than protecting the most vulnerable. The quote from Senator Kennedy about a rising tide lifting all boats is seen as solely as an aphorism when it can also be viewed as an admonishment. And with the threat of global climate change, that tide is starting to literally rise - yet the prevailing opinion seems to be "well, as long as I'm not below the high water mark..."
Government policy needs to remind us every day to improve ourselves as individuals, as teams, as communities, as nations. It needs to let us know what we should do and what we should not do. It needs to be guided by careful analysis of existing trends and reasonable predictions about the future rather than inflaming public opinion for a short-term goal. And it needs to support all of its citizens that are struggling to adapt to change (which seems to be a growing percentage of the population).
So, I think that asking about details like what sort of manufacturing should be supported by the US government is something that can take a back seat while the issue of what US society should be like is decided.
That's all generally true. But you omitted one critical fact:
Prior to the 70's & 80's, the U.S. was the world's manufacturing hub. Our basic industries (steel, autos & electronics) dominated the world. But then Japan started making those same products better, cheaper and faster. And, despite protective tariffs, buyers started flocking to their products and U.S. manufacturers were facing bankruptcy.
The "lost the sense of community that epitomises nationhood" that you mention is really globalization. And globalization was the response to manufacturing becoming a global enterprise. The U.S. was forced to adapt to reality or suffer the consequences. We did that -- but now we are having second thoughts and trying revert back to a world that no longer exists.
So, what this really means that in the 1980s, the republicans who were in power, willfully refused to build out modern manufacturing, and that that thinking permeated all decisions since?
That's why, when Trump, the king of BS tells the great unwashed masses that their jobs are coming back, he is bull$hitting them.
Meanwhile, the oligarchs in the Republican Party want to keep the masses sedated with low paying "service" jobs.
So, what this really means that in the 1980s, the republicans who were in power, willfully refused to build out modern manufacturing, and that that thinking permeated all decisions since?
Nope. They all share blame, Bill Clinton having a special place in it.
The epic mistake about manufacturing that’s cost Americans millions of jobs
Playing a blame game doesn't work, we all share some of it. It's not those evil ol' 'publicans behind it all. You should read more and include more sources.
I think it's hard to argue with the following points:
4. There is a hard limit on the extent to which humans can be replaced by machines. Tesla learned it with the Model 3; Darth Sidious learned it with the droid invasion of Naboo.
I think it's hard to argue with the following points:
1. Manufacturing the iPhone at its current scale takes a huge number of workers. 2. China has those workers, along with needed infrastructure to support manufacturing 3. Only India has the number of workers, but their infrastructure sucks 4. There is a hard limit on the extent to which humans can be replaced by machines. GM and Apple learned this in the 80s, Tesla learned it with the Model 3; Darth Sidious learned it with the droid invasion of Naboo.
So, yeah, Apple can't really avoid manufacturing in china.
So, no, Apple doesn’t have to at all. The examples you mention are all invalid, since the 80’s automation capabilities changed completely, Tesla does automate in a new innovative way, it took a bit longer to ramp that up ... It would be a big challenge which Apple as a computer company has the capabilities for. Think out of the box instead of status quo.
I think it's hard to argue with the following points:
1. Manufacturing the iPhone at its current scale takes a huge number of workers. 2. China has those workers, along with needed infrastructure to support manufacturing 3. Only India has the number of workers, but their infrastructure sucks 4. There is a hard limit on the extent to which humans can be replaced by machines. GM and Apple learned this in the 80s, Tesla learned it with the Model 3; Darth Sidious learned it with the droid invasion of Naboo.
So, yeah, Apple can't really avoid manufacturing in china.
You seriously trying to compare the state of automation in the 1980s to today’s state of automation?
Apple could invest $200 billion into developing robotic manufacturing tech and not only use it to produce iPhones but also sell it as technology to others, or Apple could blow $200 billion on stock buy backs. The former requires effort, the latter is easy.
1) I didn't know Apple was in the business of developing robotic manufacturing for other tech companies. Thank you for the enlightenment.
2) I din't know that creating value for the investors by buying stocks back is something bad ('blowing' money). Thank you for the enlightenment.
And now since I am enlighted by your wisdom out of your parents' basement, I think I can start blaming apple for rainy weather today.
Shipping thousands of parts from many countries half a world away to assemble in the US is super expensive compared to choosing a location where most of the parts are made and just shipping the finished product to the US. This is a no brainer.
If you want to bring back manufacturing to the US, you must bring back everyone including the parts and component suppliers, train a new generation of manufacturing engineers and technicians,build a distribution system, establish auxillary services and improve access to raw/direct materials etc. It would take decades.
Comments
From an outsider's perspective: in the 1950s and 1960s the US was focussed on manufacturing in a big way, boosted by things like government initiatives such as the space race and the widespread public recognition that superior technology was a major factor in winning the second Great War. Then in the 1970s, for a number of reasons, manufacturing started to be seen as a demeaning industry to work in - only the uneducated would choose it, many of those who entered it didn't want to be there, the benefits hard-won by unions became a crutch that was abused by members who didn't enjoy the work - and the government chose to focus public attention on the "War on Communism" rather than on self-improvement.
By the 1980s (and this is the time period I can speak to a little more authoritatively, given my age), information technology was the new hotness, the silver bullet that would transform society. If you weren't interested in IT, then you needed to be in finance. Making money through abstract activities like corporate buyouts and restructuring was the smart way to get rich, and you could do it fast - no more schlepping to a factory job for decades to retire on a decent pension, that sort of time investment was for losers!
And governments throughout the western world believed that story, while governments in third world countries focused on building manufacturing expertise knowing that keeping a populace building things to improve their lives would... well, improve their lives. People whose lives are getting better don't engage in revolutions.
For me, the US (and other nations) have lost the sense of community that epitomises nationhood. More and more, government policies seem to be allowing predation on particular segments of the population rather than protecting the most vulnerable. The quote from Senator Kennedy about a rising tide lifting all boats is seen as solely as an aphorism when it can also be viewed as an admonishment. And with the threat of global climate change, that tide is starting to literally rise - yet the prevailing opinion seems to be "well, as long as I'm not below the high water mark..."
Government policy needs to remind us every day to improve ourselves as individuals, as teams, as communities, as nations. It needs to let us know what we should do and what we should not do. It needs to be guided by careful analysis of existing trends and reasonable predictions about the future rather than inflaming public opinion for a short-term goal. And it needs to support all of its citizens that are struggling to adapt to change (which seems to be a growing percentage of the population).
So, I think that asking about details like what sort of manufacturing should be supported by the US government is something that can take a back seat while the issue of what US society should be like is decided.
Apparently he was also a booze reporter. Perhaps DED should have highlighted that
Certainly Trump kicked it off with his failed Trade War and fear mongering of National Security concerns.
If it is the latter, the U.S. would be well advised to improve its competitive position rather than relying on smear campaigns. Those making significant decisions (like Apple or the EU carriers) will base their decisions on facts and truth rather than politically motivated smear campaigns. They will move on leaving the U.S. behind looking foolish.
consider this thought experiment — take a typical, able-bodied adult human, give them a standard 60 watt bulb. Send them into a house they’ve never been in before with instructions to find the table lamp with the burned out bulb and replace it.
I’m skeptical that task could be automated, even with billions of dollars and years of effort
When did they start ripping kids out of their parents arms and putting them in cages?
Obama to China: Stop hacking U.S. companies, or else
https://fortune.com/2015/09/16/obama-warns-china-on-hacking/Obama warns China of cyber retaliation
https://www.ft.com/content/0154d746-5c94-11e5-a28b-50226830d644G20: Obama warns Beijing against South China Sea aggression
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/03/g20-obama-warns-beijing-against-south-china-sea-aggressionObama warns against China’s model and rise of ‘strongman politics’, in speech hailing Mandela’s legacy
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/2155731/obama-warns-against-chinas-model-and-rise-strongmanObama praises Russia's Putin before beluga breakfast
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-obama-russia-putin-sb/obama-praises-russias-putin-before-beluga-breakfast-idUSTRE56657Q20090707Obama congratulates Putin for election “win”
https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/03/09/obama-congratulates-putin-for-election-win/@Georgebmac
What is wrong with you?
That's all generally true. But you omitted one critical fact:
That's why, when Trump, the king of BS tells the great unwashed masses that their jobs are coming back, he is bull$hitting them.
Meanwhile, the oligarchs in the Republican Party want to keep the masses sedated with low paying "service" jobs.
The epic mistake about manufacturing that’s cost Americans millions of jobs
https://qz.com/1269172/the-epic-mistake-about-manufacturing-thats-cost-americans-millions-of-jobs/Waking the Sleeping Dragon
https://slate.com/business/2016/09/when-china-joined-the-wto-it-kick-started-the-chinese-economy-and-roused-a-giant.htmlBill Clinton’s True Legacy: Outsourcer-in-Chief
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-clintons-true-legacy_b_1852887Playing a blame game doesn't work, we all share some of it. It's not those evil ol' 'publicans behind it all. You should read more and include more sources.
The examples you mention are all invalid, since the 80’s automation capabilities changed completely, Tesla does automate in a new innovative way, it took a bit longer to ramp that up ...
It would be a big challenge which Apple as a computer company has the capabilities for.
Think out of the box instead of status quo.
Your attempt at irony isn't very enlightened.
Even a child is pushed to try again and learn from its mistakes.
So, no, that is no excuse at all.
A.I. reader