I think you missed the main point - $800 to fix a fleck of dust under a key.
It was a total 100% complete failure of industrial design. Nothing should ever be designed that way. It’s like designing a car that requires $23,000 to fix a flat tire because they connected it to the engine - and the tires go flat if they get a pebble in the tread.
What Apple did not anticipate is that their beautiful laptops would be used by Croissant crunching couch potatoes, aka bloggers.
I wonder if we took a poll asking which keyboard people preferred between the 2015-era scissor, the butterfly or the new 16" MBP keyboard, how many people would rank the butterfly at the top? I'm guessing not many.
Count me in. I loved the feel of my 2016 MBP's butterfly keyboard while it lasted; 2.5 years, until the TAB key started registering twice occasionally, so Apple replaced the whole topcase for free which gave me the 2017 version of the keyboard. I like typing on that one even better.
Given reliability finally isn't an issue anymore with the latest (2019) butterfly keyboard, I'm really sad to see it go away. But I understand it was a necessary move from a marketing perspective, and at least will make those rejoice who disliked typing on the butterfly keyboards anyway.
I myself view it as a huge backstep though, as even the Magic Keyboard–while much better than the pre-2015 scissor keyboards–can't match the (2016-onwards) butterfly keyboards' precise feel, stability and clicky feedback by a mile.
Really helps me to increase my touch typing speed.
The majority of people (I am sure, here on the forum as well) do not touch type.
Let's ask touch typist (people who do not watch at the keyboard at all), which keyboard they prefer.
I love the butterfly keyboard.
The best keyboard ever.
This. A touch typist myself, a pretty fast one at that, I fully agree.
When typing on a scissor keyboard, I'm way slower than usual and make more mistakes. Even on the "new" Magic Keyboard, trying to type at my usual rate is like trying to sprint through quicksand. Actually more so than on the external magic keyboard with almost the same mechanism, don't know why though.
If there's one complaint I have about the 2017 butterfly keyboard in my 2016 MBP, it's the noise. But even that it seems isn't an issue anymore with the 2019 version.
Tim Cook makes lots of devices so he can make a great amount of money. Jobs made great devices that happened to make a lot of money.
that difference is what leads to butterfly keyboards.
Yes, the guy who's pledged to give away the vast majority of his wealth and will work on accessibility over stock value is doing it for money. Great take!
Why are you still here? Aren't you mostly divested from the platform?
I'll chime in again on this, but more fully now that I've had a bit with my newer keyboard:
I LOVED the keyboard on my 2018 15" MBP when I got it, coming from a 2011. I contrasted the haters here, loved the short key travel and feel to it and thought it felt great overall. I have never, ever understood people of a declining minority (like Gruber and Arment and dinosaurs on this forum) who really still cling to the old Apple Extended Keyboard II style of huge squishy buttons. I grew up with that and do not miss it one bit.
I fully believe they are training those types of people to get closer to the surface, so to speak, like the kids are growing up typing on glass. And the myriad patents to a virtual keyboard surface with no actual keys, etc. As controversial as that is, there's definitely something there, and something they're experimenting with. Anyway...
Reliability was not an issue... for a while. And then several months in a noticed double taps on certain keys — a and sometimes space (double space gives you a period like on iOS, so easy to notice), and eventually, delete. Delete is a big fucking problem as you can imagine. I realized a few times that I had hit delete once on an email and deleted the next one in line. That's a SERIOUS fucking problem and one I wasn't willing to put up with much longer, but I did, just trying to be aware of it. Eventually I got a three or four week video editing gig that involved a lot of rendering and I'm guessing it was the heat on the keyboard, but at the end of one very long all nighter, I was rendering with fans a-blowing and trying to type up an email to attach the Vimeo link to, and I literally was unable to construct full sentences as so many keys were failing it wasn't even easy to track. Not just a's and deletes and spaces, it was messy enough I had to wait and walk away and come back later to compose it after things were done rendering and cooled off. That was the last straw.
One other flaw that's minor, is twice I had keys shedding their black finish around the middle or edges of keys to let the light through. Had a couple keycaps replaced while I was getting an iPhone fixed and one of those replacements and one other were shedding their paint when I took this in for fixing'. I've never once seen that in my 16 years of owning Mac laptops.
Got it fixed, and the replacement was said to be the 2019 version of the keyboard replacement. It's slightly quieter given the membranes, and so far have not had noticeable problems. I'm not the cleanest of typists, so I'm keeping an eye on it. So far not bad, but it's only been a few months.
My point is, this whole thing is one of those issues that has multiple angles to it that are not joined at all. Some people hate the feel/travel of the butterfly. Not me. I still love it! Reliability on the other hand is a different beast, and I cannot abide by a keyboard that fails that easily. I hope the 2019 keyboard holds up over time. I tried out the 16" keyboard at the store and it feels good. It also addresses my only other complaint which is the arrow key setup, I'd prefer the inverted T. And the physical escape is the right call, I think.
Either way, I gotta say it kinda sucks for Schiller to have this Butterfly presentation and the 2013 Mac Pro under his belt. Not blaming him but god dammit, you know there was a lot of yelling somewhere behind the scenes.
Tim Cook loathes Apple and cares even less for its customers. Come on folks let's discuss a single unique soft/hardware product launched since Jobs' death that hasn't been a fucking embarrassment for Apple aficionados?
Apple Watch.
I think his post raises an interesting, broader issue. IIRC, the Watch was started under Jobs.
Other than the AirPods, what is new post-Jobs at Apple that has moved the needle? Certainly not AppleMusic, not News, not HomePod, not @TV+, not Health, not HomeKit, not CarPlay. The Card and ApplePay may end up being sleeper hits, but not yet.
What else is new post-Jobs that moved the needle besides the Apple Watch? You talk about individual Apple Services like they're failures, but that's what's sustaining the company's revenue and profits, and has been for years at this point.
The company was in two different places, under the two men. Jobs was who and what he needed to be until he got sick during the company's evolution to what it is now. Cook is who and what he needs to be for what the company is now.
Apple under Jobs wasn't infallible, and not by a long shot. If you want me to enumerate Apple design failures and similar issues to the MBP keyboard under Jobs, I can do that, if you want.
I think this keyboard issue shows that Apple’s reliance on releasing products not ready for prime time and then improving them has major limitations. Maps comes to mind. In this case if Apple had waited a year or so and developed the keyboard until the 2018 version was ready they might have succeeded. If they had designed it with a little more travel and a little less thinness it would have helped too. It’sa real shame because done correctly this could have been a huge leap forward in keyboard tech. Instead it will be talked about as a huge blunder for Apple and an example of what not to do.
My daughter’s 2016 MacBook got her through 4 years of college with no problems at all, and is still going strong. My son’s 2017 13” MBP and my own 2019 13” MBP have also never had any issues. While anecdotal, that is a pretty strong track record of reliability for three heavy computer users. That said, I don’t particularly like the butterfly keyboards, and much prefer the new “magic” key mechanism.
"Comparing that to the first year of the butterfly keyboard, we saw roughly twice as many keyboard failures. It was still only a small proportion of issues that needed repair, but keyboards were brought back for fixing significantly more than before."
IMO, these two sentence are an example of the problem with the reporting on this issue. "Failure" is used as the lead (sounds more dire), then is quickly replaced with the more routine "repair" and "fix". If those terms are interchangeable, then "failure" could mean something as minor as using compressed air for a stuck key. There's no information provided about what type of service was being done during 2016. And as the article itself points out, the MacBook, which used the same mechanism, never generated the same types of reporting. Plus, the 2017 model did not have the membrane added and didn't generate more failures/repairs/fixes than what would generally be expected. Doesn't that call into question the relevance of the 2016 numbers?
"Comparing that to the first year of the butterfly keyboard, we saw roughly twice as many keyboard failures. It was still only a small proportion of issues that needed repair, but keyboards were brought back for fixing significantly more than before."
IMO, these two sentence are an example of the problem with the reporting on this issue. "Failure" is used as the lead (sounds more dire), then is quickly replaced with the more routine "repair" and "fix". If those terms are interchangeable, then "failure" could mean something as minor as using compressed air for a stuck key. There's no information provided about what type of service was being done during 2016. And as the article itself points out, the MacBook, which used the same mechanism, never generated the same types of reporting.
We've talked about the criteria at some length in previous pieces.
In short, if it's got an Apple case number, it's a failure/repair. We do have discrete numbers on stuck key versus upper case replacement, and they are equivalent percent-wise as it pertains to total repairs between the 2012 to 2015 and the 2016 and later.
Purely personalopinion but this was a design failure at different levels.
Given the move to IP ratings in devices, any new keyboard design should have been spillproof from the moment a redesign was pondered.
It should have had far better testing and evaluation. Even not being spillproof, they should have detected what the tolerances were for particle accumulation. It definitely looks like this wasn't thorough enough.
The same applies to noise. Apple makes a big deal out of noise reduction but I'm surprised the first generation got out the door being so noisy. Irritatingly noisy even for casual observers like me.
Repairability. One of my personal peeves. Replacing the keyboard should not involve what it currently involves. It should not be as expensive as it is to repair out of warranty as it is.
Keys with the finish wearing off is just the icing on the cake. That just should not happen under normal use.
All in all, too much went wrong here. I find it hard to believe that Apple introduced repair extension programmes for pretty much every butterfly keyboard ever made for purely 'marketing' reasons as some are implying. I'm in the camp that believes there are inherent design flaws which make every one of them a time bomb.
I don't touch type but it would be interesting to see how much raw performance (speed and accuracy) improves when using the butterfly design over other designs. Without taking into account things like preference, comfort, fatigue etc.
My thinking is that if anyone is dedicating a large enough period of time to typing to see notable gains, I feel they would opt for an external keyboard of their personal preference and that optimises their typing on all levels (comfort, fatigue, number keypad included).
Again, from a personal perspective, I never considered the original MacBook 'beloved'. I hated the thing. One port. Underpowered. Expensive and the keyboard. For me it was the anti-Mac.
avon b7 said: All in all, too much went wrong here. I find it hard to believe that Apple introduced repair extension programmes for pretty much every butterfly keyboard ever made for purely 'marketing' reasons as some are implying. I'm in the camp that believes there are inherent design flaws which make every one of them a time bomb.
Check the post directly above yours by one of the site admins. Not only was 2016 the only year that repair rates significantly exceeded what would typically be expected, the ratio between stuck key repairs and top case replacements never changed between the two different mechanisms.
There was so little travel on the butterfly keyboard that it felt like typing on concrete. It was the worst keyboard ever made.
Yes, while there was clearly a reliability problem with the keyboard, its lack of feel and travel was, I believe, the primary source of complaint.
It's like the guys who designed it had become used to hunt & peck on screen based keyboards and were so obsessed with Thin & Light that they simply didn't consider feel and travel to be an important consideration. But there is still a large percentage of the population who did not grow up on screen based keyboards and who use and value touch typing -- which relies mostly on feel and travel to provide feedback since you aren't looking at the keys.
While they may have been right that the hunt & peck single digit crowd is (most of) the future, the part they missed is that a keyboard with feel and travel can satisfy both.
I think the return to a quality keyboard is a welcome retreat from sacrificing functionality to ideological puritanism. .... And I think that idea is confirmed that few mourn the demise of the butterfly concept and its supporters rely on "It wasn't THAT bad!" as a defense.
GeorgeBMac said: .... And I think that idea is confirmed that few mourn the demise of the butterfly concept and its supporters rely on "It wasn't THAT bad!" as a defense.
According to this site, 2016 was the only year that butterfly repair rates exceeded what would be expected. The 2017 (non-membrane), 2018 (membrane), and 2019 (membrane) versions of the butterfly mechanism were basically just as reliable as 2015 and earlier scissor mechanisms. So even though the tech press is generally hailing the arrival of a new design of the scissor mechanism as meaning "more reliable" vs the butterfly, that's a misleading approach.
avon b7 said: All in all, too much went wrong here. I find it hard to believe that Apple introduced repair extension programmes for pretty much every butterfly keyboard ever made for purely 'marketing' reasons as some are implying. I'm in the camp that believes there are inherent design flaws which make every one of them a time bomb.
Check the post directly above yours by one of the site admins. Not only was 2016 the only year that repair rates significantly exceeded what would typically be expected, the ratio between stuck key repairs and top case replacements never changed between the two different mechanisms.
Yes, I'm aware of the rates but we have to contrast two areas. AI's informal checks at a subset of retail and repair setups and Apple's deep knowledge of exactly what the incidence is.
Apple has gone on record as stating just a small number of users have experienced problems. That isn't of much relevance without something to back it up and Apple AFAIK has never gone that far publicly. It could easily go on record as stating the butterfly keyboard is now just as reliable as previous keyboards. It could give a simple percentage of cases. It hasn't done that AFAIK. It introduced a huge repair extension programme and dumped the butterfly keyboard for a new design based on the scissor key mechanism.
To me, that isn't the reaction to a 'small number' of affected users of machines that were not overly impacted in terms of sales, and doesn't relate to my overall conclusion that these butterfly keyboards can go south at any moment. There is no serial number batch affectation to this problem. No known faulty part or production mishap. The repair extension programme is applicable to millions of machines and that, IMO, is indicative of something more problematic. The design itself.
avon b7 said: The repair extension programme is applicable to millions of machines and that, IMO, is indicative of something more problematic. The design itself.
When you see a product that has a longer warranty than another, do you automatically conclude that the company is offering that extended coverage because they know their products are defective? Typically you would conclude the opposite, so Apple's extension of the repair program can't automatically be viewed as an admission that there is a design flaw in the keyboard. You could also rationally conclude that they were extending it because they were confident about the repair levels going forward. The numbers that AI has offered certainly don't refute that type of explanation, with 2016 looking like an anomaly for repairs.
avon b7 said: The repair extension programme is applicable to millions of machines and that, IMO, is indicative of something more problematic. The design itself.
When you see a product that has a longer warranty than another, do you automatically conclude that the company is offering that extended coverage because they know their products are defective? Typically you would conclude the opposite, so Apple's extension of the repair program can't automatically be viewed as an admission that there is a design flaw in the keyboard. You could also rationally conclude that they were extending it because they were confident about the repair levels going forward. The numbers that AI has offered certainly don't refute that type of explanation, with 2016 looking like an anomaly for repairs.
None of that plays even remotely closely to Apple's warranty habits and it has got itself into hot water many a time for pulling the wool over users' eyes with things like AppleCare which, in itself, is indicative of Apple's thinking on warranties. You get your statutory consumer protections and anything above that is a paid opt in.
When Apple announces a repair extension programme, there is a reason for it and if you happen to not hear about it and the extension window closes before the fault appears, you are out of luck. This has happened to me three times and Apple made no effort to contact me on any of the three occasions in spite of them having all our contact details. Apple marketing mails still arrive periodically, though. Also, as it is virtually impossible to operate without an Apple ID, your serial numbers are available to Apple and many extension programmes require SN checking or other checks, it is still the user AFAIK that is required to keep himself/herself up to date on these issues.
This is all without taking into account the (probably industry wide) practice of replacing components that are applicable to repair extension programmes with the exact same components.
Tim Cook loathes Apple and cares even less for its customers. Come on folks let's discuss a single unique soft/hardware product launched since Jobs' death that hasn't been a fucking embarrassment for Apple aficionados?
Apple Watch.
I think his post raises an interesting, broader issue. IIRC, the Watch was started under Jobs.
Other than the AirPods, what is new post-Jobs at Apple that has moved the needle? Certainly not AppleMusic, not News, not HomePod, not @TV+, not Health, not HomeKit, not CarPlay. The Card and ApplePay may end up being sleeper hits, but not yet.
What else is new post-Jobs that moved the needle besides the Apple Watch? You talk about individual Apple Services like they're failures, but that's what's sustaining the company's revenue and profits, and has been for years at this point.
The company was in two different places, under the two men. Jobs was who and what he needed to be until he got sick during the company's evolution to what it is now. Cook is who and what he needs to be for what the company is now.
Apple under Jobs wasn't infallible, and not by a long shot. If you want me to enumerate Apple design failures and similar issues to the MBP keyboard under Jobs, I can do that, if you want.
I simply did not say -- or "talk about" -- "failures." That is just a churlish reading on your part of what I wrote. Re-read it, if you wish, in context, and try to understand the phrase "move the needle."
Re "Services", that's a broad category (including, for example, AppleCare). The ones I mentioned are not, IMHO, moving the needle yet. If you have data -- even analyst estimates will do -- on components of services that contribute the largest share, do share. Otherwise your guess is as good as mine. I also gave credit where it's due for AC and AP.
Tim Cook loathes Apple and cares even less for its customers. Come on folks let's discuss a single unique soft/hardware product launched since Jobs' death that hasn't been a fucking embarrassment for Apple aficionados?
Apple Watch.
I think his post raises an interesting, broader issue. IIRC, the Watch was started under Jobs.
Other than the AirPods, what is new post-Jobs at Apple that has moved the needle? Certainly not AppleMusic, not News, not HomePod, not @TV+, not Health, not HomeKit, not CarPlay. The Card and ApplePay may end up being sleeper hits, but not yet.
What else is new post-Jobs that moved the needle besides the Apple Watch? You talk about individual Apple Services like they're failures, but that's what's sustaining the company's revenue and profits, and has been for years at this point.
The company was in two different places, under the two men. Jobs was who and what he needed to be until he got sick during the company's evolution to what it is now. Cook is who and what he needs to be for what the company is now.
Apple under Jobs wasn't infallible, and not by a long shot. If you want me to enumerate Apple design failures and similar issues to the MBP keyboard under Jobs, I can do that, if you want.
I simply did not say -- or "talk about" -- "failures." That is just a churlish reading on your part of what I wrote. Re-read it, if you wish, in context, and try to understand the phrase "move the needle."
Re "Services", that's a broad category (including, for example, AppleCare). The ones I mentioned are not, IMHO, moving the needle yet. If you have data -- even analyst estimates will do -- on components of services that contribute the largest share, do share. Otherwise your guess is as good as mine. I also gave credit where it's due for AC and AP.
There's no "churlish reading" being done here. If that's what you interpreted based on what I wrote, then I apologize for that.
But, services are bundled as an Apple business segment like the Mac, iPad, iPhone, wearables stand alone. Picking out what's a big money-maker and what isn't out of that one Services category isn't a reasonable comparison, and not really relevant.
The original question is what was a success under Cook? The answer is Services, and Wearables (which includes the Apple Watch and AirPods). Both of them certainly "moved the needle" as you say.
Services in the last two quarters will make more money than Apple did in the entirely of Apple's fiscal year 2010. Over 2020, Services will make more money than Apple did in 2013.
avon b7 said: The repair extension programme is applicable to millions of machines and that, IMO, is indicative of something more problematic. The design itself.
When you see a product that has a longer warranty than another, do you automatically conclude that the company is offering that extended coverage because they know their products are defective? Typically you would conclude the opposite, so Apple's extension of the repair program can't automatically be viewed as an admission that there is a design flaw in the keyboard. You could also rationally conclude that they were extending it because they were confident about the repair levels going forward. The numbers that AI has offered certainly don't refute that type of explanation, with 2016 looking like an anomaly for repairs.
That depends. Back in the 80's Chrysler started offering longer warranties just to get people to buy their cars. At the time, Toyota had no warranty but no one ever claimed a Chrysler was a better car! Using warranty length as an estimate of quality is dicey at best but in this situation, Apple extended the warranty on one specific part of the computer after the fact. That is almost universally an indication of problems. To @"avon b7"'s point, the only time Apple has done this in the past has been when there were problems, particularly, as he pointed out, when you apply it to every single device sold. That's not a manufacturing defect in a single batch that was corrected, that's a design issue.
firelock said:
My daughter’s 2016 MacBook got her through 4 years of college with no problems at all, and is still going strong. My son’s 2017 13” MBP and my own 2019 13” MBP have also never had any issues. While anecdotal, that is a pretty strong track record of reliability for three heavy computer users. That said, I don’t particularly like the butterfly keyboards, and much prefer the new “magic” key mechanism.
Apple may be 100% right that only a small number of people have/had issues, but for a component like a keyboard that typically has near perfect reliability, it doesn't take a lot of problems to move the needle. Say there is a 3% failure rate. That's pretty high but still means you would still have greater than a 90% chance of having no problems with 3 computers.
MplsP said: Using warranty length as an estimate of quality is dicey at best but in this situation, Apple extended the warranty on one specific part of the computer after the fact. That is almost universally an indication of problems.
----
Apple may be 100% right that only a small number of people have/had issues, but for a component like a keyboard that typically has near perfect reliability, it doesn't take a lot of problems to move the needle. Say there is a 3% failure rate. That's pretty high but still means you would still have greater than a 90% chance of having no problems with 3 computers.
Per the warranty comparison, Apple is a company that has consistently rated highly for customer satisfaction with its products. That includes being at the top of reliability lists for Consumer Reports and PC Magazine for laptops during the butterfly mechanism era. As a result, it's not that far-fetched to think Apple could have chosen to extend the keyboard repair program out of confidence rather than a lack of confidence. And like I said, AppleInsider has stated that their own stats on repairs show 2016 as being the exception for the butterfly MBPs, not the rule. The three following years appear to have been much more routine when it came to keyboard repairs, despite the repair program being extended.
As for the "a component like a keyboard that typically has near perfect reliability"...what is that based on? Keyboards are one of the most likely pieces of hardware to have problems due to the fact that they're exposed to the air and manually handled by the user. That could mean thousands of keystrokes per day and all kinds of dust/particles and dirt/crumbs etc. A quick internet search will show that keyboard problems are quite common for both Macs and PCs.
Comments
Given reliability finally isn't an issue anymore with the latest (2019) butterfly keyboard, I'm really sad to see it go away.
But I understand it was a necessary move from a marketing perspective, and at least will make those rejoice who disliked typing on the butterfly keyboards anyway.
I myself view it as a huge backstep though, as even the Magic Keyboard–while much better than the pre-2015 scissor keyboards–can't match the (2016-onwards) butterfly keyboards' precise feel, stability and clicky feedback by a mile.
This. A touch typist myself, a pretty fast one at that, I fully agree.
When typing on a scissor keyboard, I'm way slower than usual and make more mistakes.
Even on the "new" Magic Keyboard, trying to type at my usual rate is like trying to sprint through quicksand.
Actually more so than on the external magic keyboard with almost the same mechanism, don't know why though.
If there's one complaint I have about the 2017 butterfly keyboard in my 2016 MBP, it's the noise. But even that it seems isn't an issue anymore with the 2019 version.
Why are you still here? Aren't you mostly divested from the platform?
I LOVED the keyboard on my 2018 15" MBP when I got it, coming from a 2011. I contrasted the haters here, loved the short key travel and feel to it and thought it felt great overall. I have never, ever understood people of a declining minority (like Gruber and Arment and dinosaurs on this forum) who really still cling to the old Apple Extended Keyboard II style of huge squishy buttons. I grew up with that and do not miss it one bit.
I fully believe they are training those types of people to get closer to the surface, so to speak, like the kids are growing up typing on glass. And the myriad patents to a virtual keyboard surface with no actual keys, etc. As controversial as that is, there's definitely something there, and something they're experimenting with. Anyway...
Reliability was not an issue... for a while. And then several months in a noticed double taps on certain keys — a and sometimes space (double space gives you a period like on iOS, so easy to notice), and eventually, delete. Delete is a big fucking problem as you can imagine. I realized a few times that I had hit delete once on an email and deleted the next one in line. That's a SERIOUS fucking problem and one I wasn't willing to put up with much longer, but I did, just trying to be aware of it. Eventually I got a three or four week video editing gig that involved a lot of rendering and I'm guessing it was the heat on the keyboard, but at the end of one very long all nighter, I was rendering with fans a-blowing and trying to type up an email to attach the Vimeo link to, and I literally was unable to construct full sentences as so many keys were failing it wasn't even easy to track. Not just a's and deletes and spaces, it was messy enough I had to wait and walk away and come back later to compose it after things were done rendering and cooled off. That was the last straw.
One other flaw that's minor, is twice I had keys shedding their black finish around the middle or edges of keys to let the light through. Had a couple keycaps replaced while I was getting an iPhone fixed and one of those replacements and one other were shedding their paint when I took this in for fixing'. I've never once seen that in my 16 years of owning Mac laptops.
Got it fixed, and the replacement was said to be the 2019 version of the keyboard replacement. It's slightly quieter given the membranes, and so far have not had noticeable problems. I'm not the cleanest of typists, so I'm keeping an eye on it. So far not bad, but it's only been a few months.
My point is, this whole thing is one of those issues that has multiple angles to it that are not joined at all. Some people hate the feel/travel of the butterfly. Not me. I still love it! Reliability on the other hand is a different beast, and I cannot abide by a keyboard that fails that easily. I hope the 2019 keyboard holds up over time. I tried out the 16" keyboard at the store and it feels good. It also addresses my only other complaint which is the arrow key setup, I'd prefer the inverted T. And the physical escape is the right call, I think.
Either way, I gotta say it kinda sucks for Schiller to have this Butterfly presentation and the 2013 Mac Pro under his belt. Not blaming him but god dammit, you know there was a lot of yelling somewhere behind the scenes.
What else is new post-Jobs that moved the needle besides the Apple Watch? You talk about individual Apple Services like they're failures, but that's what's sustaining the company's revenue and profits, and has been for years at this point.
The company was in two different places, under the two men. Jobs was who and what he needed to be until he got sick during the company's evolution to what it is now. Cook is who and what he needs to be for what the company is now.
Apple under Jobs wasn't infallible, and not by a long shot. If you want me to enumerate Apple design failures and similar issues to the MBP keyboard under Jobs, I can do that, if you want.
IMO, these two sentence are an example of the problem with the reporting on this issue. "Failure" is used as the lead (sounds more dire), then is quickly replaced with the more routine "repair" and "fix". If those terms are interchangeable, then "failure" could mean something as minor as using compressed air for a stuck key. There's no information provided about what type of service was being done during 2016. And as the article itself points out, the MacBook, which used the same mechanism, never generated the same types of reporting. Plus, the 2017 model did not have the membrane added and didn't generate more failures/repairs/fixes than what would generally be expected. Doesn't that call into question the relevance of the 2016 numbers?
In short, if it's got an Apple case number, it's a failure/repair. We do have discrete numbers on stuck key versus upper case replacement, and they are equivalent percent-wise as it pertains to total repairs between the 2012 to 2015 and the 2016 and later.
Given the move to IP ratings in devices, any new keyboard design should have been spillproof from the moment a redesign was pondered.
It should have had far better testing and evaluation. Even not being spillproof, they should have detected what the tolerances were for particle accumulation. It definitely looks like this wasn't thorough enough.
The same applies to noise. Apple makes a big deal out of noise reduction but I'm surprised the first generation got out the door being so noisy. Irritatingly noisy even for casual observers like me.
Repairability. One of my personal peeves. Replacing the keyboard should not involve what it currently involves. It should not be as expensive as it is to repair out of warranty as it is.
Keys with the finish wearing off is just the icing on the cake. That just should not happen under normal use.
All in all, too much went wrong here. I find it hard to believe that Apple introduced repair extension programmes for pretty much every butterfly keyboard ever made for purely 'marketing' reasons as some are implying. I'm in the camp that believes there are inherent design flaws which make every one of them a time bomb.
I don't touch type but it would be interesting to see how much raw performance (speed and accuracy) improves when using the butterfly design over other designs. Without taking into account things like preference, comfort, fatigue etc.
My thinking is that if anyone is dedicating a large enough period of time to typing to see notable gains, I feel they would opt for an external keyboard of their personal preference and that optimises their typing on all levels (comfort, fatigue, number keypad included).
Again, from a personal perspective, I never considered the original MacBook 'beloved'. I hated the thing. One port. Underpowered. Expensive and the keyboard. For me it was the anti-Mac.
.... And I think that idea is confirmed that few mourn the demise of the butterfly concept and its supporters rely on "It wasn't THAT bad!" as a defense.
Apple has gone on record as stating just a small number of users have experienced problems. That isn't of much relevance without something to back it up and Apple AFAIK has never gone that far publicly. It could easily go on record as stating the butterfly keyboard is now just as reliable as previous keyboards. It could give a simple percentage of cases. It hasn't done that AFAIK. It introduced a huge repair extension programme and dumped the butterfly keyboard for a new design based on the scissor key mechanism.
To me, that isn't the reaction to a 'small number' of affected users of machines that were not overly impacted in terms of sales, and doesn't relate to my overall conclusion that these butterfly keyboards can go south at any moment. There is no serial number batch affectation to this problem. No known faulty part or production mishap. The repair extension programme is applicable to millions of machines and that, IMO, is indicative of something more problematic. The design itself.
When Apple announces a repair extension programme, there is a reason for it and if you happen to not hear about it and the extension window closes before the fault appears, you are out of luck. This has happened to me three times and Apple made no effort to contact me on any of the three occasions in spite of them having all our contact details. Apple marketing mails still arrive periodically, though. Also, as it is virtually impossible to operate without an Apple ID, your serial numbers are available to Apple and many extension programmes require SN checking or other checks, it is still the user AFAIK that is required to keep himself/herself up to date on these issues.
This is all without taking into account the (probably industry wide) practice of replacing components that are applicable to repair extension programmes with the exact same components.
Re "Services", that's a broad category (including, for example, AppleCare). The ones I mentioned are not, IMHO, moving the needle yet. If you have data -- even analyst estimates will do -- on components of services that contribute the largest share, do share. Otherwise your guess is as good as mine. I also gave credit where it's due for AC and AP.
But, services are bundled as an Apple business segment like the Mac, iPad, iPhone, wearables stand alone. Picking out what's a big money-maker and what isn't out of that one Services category isn't a reasonable comparison, and not really relevant.
The original question is what was a success under Cook? The answer is Services, and Wearables (which includes the Apple Watch and AirPods). Both of them certainly "moved the needle" as you say.
Services in the last two quarters will make more money than Apple did in the entirely of Apple's fiscal year 2010. Over 2020, Services will make more money than Apple did in 2013.
firelock said: My daughter’s 2016 MacBook got her through 4 years of college with no problems at all, and is still going strong. My son’s 2017 13” MBP and my own 2019 13” MBP have also never had any issues. While anecdotal, that is a pretty strong track record of reliability for three heavy computer users. That said, I don’t particularly like the butterfly keyboards, and much prefer the new “magic” key mechanism.
Apple may be 100% right that only a small number of people have/had issues, but for a component like a keyboard that typically has near perfect reliability, it doesn't take a lot of problems to move the needle. Say there is a 3% failure rate. That's pretty high but still means you would still have greater than a 90% chance of having no problems with 3 computers.
As for the "a component like a keyboard that typically has near perfect reliability"...what is that based on? Keyboards are one of the most likely pieces of hardware to have problems due to the fact that they're exposed to the air and manually handled by the user. That could mean thousands of keystrokes per day and all kinds of dust/particles and dirt/crumbs etc. A quick internet search will show that keyboard problems are quite common for both Macs and PCs.