US trying for 'clean network' by banning 'untrusted Chinese apps' like WeChat, TikTok

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 47
    xiao-zhixiao-zhi Posts: 114member
    Hey! I have an idea! “MAGAF”!

    MakeAmericaGreatAgainFirewall!
    FileMakerFeller
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 22 of 47
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    elijahgcat52watto_cobra
     3Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 23 of 47
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,769member
    tzeshan said:
    Apple apps provides safeguards against stealing personal information while Google Android apps do not. This is my understanding. 
    You've misunderstood
    tmay
     0Likes 0Dislikes 1Informative
  • Reply 24 of 47
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    gatorguy said:
    tzeshan said:
    Apple apps provides safeguards against stealing personal information while Google Android apps do not. This is my understanding. 
    You've misunderstood
    Elaborate your knowledge please. 
    watto_cobra
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 25 of 47
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    National Security has never been beholden to "innocent until proven guilty".
    It is all about risk assessment. 
     
    svanstromcat52watto_cobra
     3Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 26 of 47
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member

    tzeshan said:
    Is this the beginning of the end of internet culture? 
    Uhm, China's Great Firewall already ended it.
    Ofercat52watto_cobra
     3Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 27 of 47
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,769member
    tzeshan said:
    gatorguy said:
    tzeshan said:
    Apple apps provides safeguards against stealing personal information while Google Android apps do not. This is my understanding. 
    You've misunderstood
    Elaborate your knowledge please. 
    Gosh, you know how to use a search engine. Try it, it's liberating. Start with these terms: "Google Android protecting privacy"
    watto_cobra
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 28 of 47
    razorpitrazorpit Posts: 1,796member
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Since you don’t care to research because it’s easier to say orange man bad, here’s two recent stories on AppleInsider to get you up to date;


    https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/04/13/tiktok-videos-can-be-spoofed-or-swapped-with-fakes-on-ios-android

    That’s just what we know about. Who knows what else there is going on that we either haven’t found yet or been told about. Even with all of this I’m sure you’ll continue to have more trust in the communist dictatorship over the orange man.
    svanstromcat52SpamSandwichwatto_cobra
     4Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 29 of 47
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    gatorguy said:
    tzeshan said:
    gatorguy said:
    tzeshan said:
    Apple apps provides safeguards against stealing personal information while Google Android apps do not. This is my understanding. 
    You've misunderstood
    Elaborate your knowledge please. 
    Gosh, you know how to use a search engine. Try it, it's liberating. Start with these terms: "Google Android protecting privacy"
    With these terms the first answer is https://spreadprivacy.com/android-privacy-tips/
    It looks like it thinks Google Android is unsafe. lol
    cat52watto_cobra
     2Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 30 of 47
    "Hey, Apple, you'd better open up your app store because otherwise it's not fair. Oh, and those foreigners who wrote apps? We want you to ban those."
    thtwatto_cobra
     2Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 31 of 47
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,769member
    tzeshan said:
    gatorguy said:
    tzeshan said:
    gatorguy said:
    tzeshan said:
    Apple apps provides safeguards against stealing personal information while Google Android apps do not. This is my understanding. 
    You've misunderstood
    Elaborate your knowledge please. 
    Gosh, you know how to use a search engine. Try it, it's liberating. Start with these terms: "Google Android protecting privacy"
    With these terms the first answer is https://spreadprivacy.com/android-privacy-tips/
    It looks like it thinks Google Android is unsafe. lol
    As much as they think the iPhone is unsafe apparently. LOL?
    https://spreadprivacy.com/iphone-privacy-tips/
    edited August 2020
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 32 of 47
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    edited August 2020
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 33 of 47
    avon b7 said:
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.
    razorpitwatto_cobra
     2Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 34 of 47
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.
    You're mixing a lot of things up there. 

    It's not 'poor China'. They have plenty of stuff that could be frowned upon. So does the US. 

    That is not the point here. 

    The point is the 'justification', lack of any real evidence and the 'if you can't dominate the system, wreck it' attitude. 

    Threats, bullying, consequences, strong arming... 
    muthuk_vanalingam
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 35 of 47
    svanstromsvanstrom Posts: 702member
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.
    You're mixing a lot of things up there. 

    It's not 'poor China'. They have plenty of stuff that could be frowned upon. So does the US. 

    That is not the point here. 

    The point is the 'justification', lack of any real evidence and the 'if you can't dominate the system, wreck it' attitude. 

    Threats, bullying, consequences, strong arming... 
    There are plenty of things that you logically speaking can't prove, that still would fall under common sense; like how you can't prove that it's going to rain, but if you leave your home and see clouds looking a certain way, then you bring an umbrella.

    That's the situation with China today. The CCP are acting very aggressively, have even very recently been caught spying, and have very complete and discreet control of any Chinese company if they so wish.

    That can't be ignored, and just like you don't leave your umbrella if it looks like rain, you don't leave your networks/people unprotected just because the communist party bully hasn't been caught doing his worst yet.

    Edit: Removed non-functioning emojis.
    edited August 2020
    razorpitwatto_cobra
     2Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 36 of 47
    SpamSandwichspamsandwich Posts: 33,407member
    avon b7 said:
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    Germany (and the EU) are dependent on China because their economies are inextricably linked. They are completely screwed.
    razorpitwatto_cobra
     2Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 37 of 47
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.
    You're mixing a lot of things up there. 

    It's not 'poor China'. They have plenty of stuff that could be frowned upon. So does the US. 

    That is not the point here. 

    The point is the 'justification', lack of any real evidence and the 'if you can't dominate the system, wreck it' attitude. 

    Threats, bullying, consequences, strong arming... 
    There are plenty of things that you logically speaking can't prove, that still would fall under common sense; like how you can't prove that it's going to rain, but if you leave your home and see clouds looking a certain way, then you bring an umbrella.

    That's the situation with China today. The CCP are acting very aggressively, have even very recently been caught spying, and have very complete and discreet control of any Chinese company if they so wish.

    That can't be ignored, and just like you don't leave your umbrella if it looks like rain, you don't leave your networks/people unprotected just because the communist party bully hasn't been caught doing his worst yet.

    Edit: Removed non-functioning emojis.
    Everybody spies. On everybody else. 

    The problem with your argument (from a western perspective) is that it isn't common sense at all. 

    If it were, evidence would be required to justify the action.

    There is none they can present so they fall back onto magical executive orders tailored to their specific needs. 

    This particular case looks like it will be challenged in the courts.

    This just part of the wider package of measures to thwart China's rise. Very few people doubt that IMO. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 38 of 47
    svanstromsvanstrom Posts: 702member
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.
    You're mixing a lot of things up there. 

    It's not 'poor China'. They have plenty of stuff that could be frowned upon. So does the US. 

    That is not the point here. 

    The point is the 'justification', lack of any real evidence and the 'if you can't dominate the system, wreck it' attitude. 

    Threats, bullying, consequences, strong arming... 
    There are plenty of things that you logically speaking can't prove, that still would fall under common sense; like how you can't prove that it's going to rain, but if you leave your home and see clouds looking a certain way, then you bring an umbrella.

    That's the situation with China today. The CCP are acting very aggressively, have even very recently been caught spying, and have very complete and discreet control of any Chinese company if they so wish.

    That can't be ignored, and just like you don't leave your umbrella if it looks like rain, you don't leave your networks/people unprotected just because the communist party bully hasn't been caught doing his worst yet.

    Edit: Removed non-functioning emojis.
    Everybody spies. On everybody else. 

    The problem with your argument (from a western perspective) is that it isn't common sense at all. 

    If it were, evidence would be required to justify the action.

    There is none they can present so they fall back onto magical executive orders tailored to their specific needs. 

    This particular case looks like it will be challenged in the courts.

    This just part of the wider package of measures to thwart China's rise. Very few people doubt that IMO. 
    You can't prove everything that is about to happen before it actually happens; we simply don't live in a deterministic timeline where we can also watch the future before it happens.

    And you know that that argument of yours doesn't hold, you just dishonestly try to win an online argument; either for your personal sake, or for fifty cents.
    watto_cobra
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 39 of 47
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.
    You're mixing a lot of things up there. 

    It's not 'poor China'. They have plenty of stuff that could be frowned upon. So does the US. 

    That is not the point here. 

    The point is the 'justification', lack of any real evidence and the 'if you can't dominate the system, wreck it' attitude. 

    Threats, bullying, consequences, strong arming... 
    There are plenty of things that you logically speaking can't prove, that still would fall under common sense; like how you can't prove that it's going to rain, but if you leave your home and see clouds looking a certain way, then you bring an umbrella.

    That's the situation with China today. The CCP are acting very aggressively, have even very recently been caught spying, and have very complete and discreet control of any Chinese company if they so wish.

    That can't be ignored, and just like you don't leave your umbrella if it looks like rain, you don't leave your networks/people unprotected just because the communist party bully hasn't been caught doing his worst yet.

    Edit: Removed non-functioning emojis.
    Everybody spies. On everybody else. 

    The problem with your argument (from a western perspective) is that it isn't common sense at all. 

    If it were, evidence would be required to justify the action.

    There is none they can present so they fall back onto magical executive orders tailored to their specific needs. 

    This particular case looks like it will be challenged in the courts.

    This just part of the wider package of measures to thwart China's rise. Very few people doubt that IMO. 
    You can't prove everything that is about to happen before it actually happens; we simply don't live in a deterministic timeline where we can also watch the future before it happens.

    And you know that that argument of yours doesn't hold, you just dishonestly try to win an online argument; either for your personal sake, or for fifty cents.
    I never try to dishonestly win an argument.

    The whole national security angle is falling flat on its face.

    It's becoming a trump (lol) card that is getting played willy nilly. The practice will backfire. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 40 of 47
    svanstromsvanstrom Posts: 702member
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    svanstrom said:
    avon b7 said:
    tjwolf said:
    razorpit said:
    p-dog said:
    One word: “gaslighting”!

    Well, ok, maybe a couple more: “childish vengeance” - especially against TikTok K-Poppers for spoiling the Toddler-in-Chief’s pro-COVID Tulsa rally.
    LOL, no. More like TikTok harvesting data from US citizens, but nice try.
    Of course that's what the Administrations *says*.  Just as with Huawei, there's are accusations of wrong-doing - in order to support its actions - without any proof that such wrongdoing actually took place.  To this day, there has been no evidence presented that Huawei snooped on its networks, much less send such information back to China.  Sadly, with the POTUS lying publicly on a daily basis, *nothing* this Administration says can be trusted.

    Before someone suggests that there *is* evidence because the UK & Australia have agreed with the US' assessment, I will point out that both countries are economically and ideologically tied to the US - countries that are not beholden to the US, like Germany, have found no evidence at all.  Heck, even the UK said there was no evidence until the US had a few more words with them and they 'folded'.

    Not saying TikTok or WeChat or even Huawei are innocent, but what is supposed to separate the US from countries like China is that here, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.  Until Trump came along, "well they're doing it..." wasn't a good enough reason for us to stoop to the same level.
    Germany is currently connected at the hip to Russia for their energy consumption and unless things have changed, they use Huawei switching equipment. Germany is screwed.

    https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependence-imported-fossil-fuels
    All of Europe is dependent on Russian gas. There are plans to reduce that dependency but today it is a real factor.

    Huawei is a different story. There is no dependency on Huawei and alternatives exist but they are less technologically advanced and more expensive to implement and maintain. 

    All data from Huawei users is stored in Europe and managed by a Huawei subsidiary based in Ireland. Huawei has 15 high security datacenters within Europe for storage of EU user data. There is a Huawei cybersecurity lab in Bonn where the German government can look deep into the inner workings of Huawei ICT equipment. Huawei has a spotless record in ICT security without a single major breach in over 30 years in Europe. Zero evidence of spying and many security experts have said back doors simply are not present. The security experts at the major carrier networks have also said the spying/security/backdoor claims are unfounded. 

    Geopolitically speaking, Germany has huge economic interests in China.

    Then there are the China hawks who just fear China overtaking the US in key areas and who simply want to stop them any way they can. Often resulting in questionable actions like trying to destroy Huawei or any emerging Chinese influence (such as the actions detailed in this article).

    When it comes to China the new normal is:

    "there's an executive order for that" 

    Trump is in for a nasty wake up call. 

    This is a classic example of how lost the Trump administration is. 

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/04/world/mike-pompeo-significant-evidence-coronavirus-china-lab-us/

    Lots of talk on the public stage but it doesn't even matter if its contradictory - almost in the same breath - as long as the overriding message gets conveyed. Covid-19, 5G, national security, TiK ToK, WeChat... Whatever, as long as it is anti China in some way. 

    The rest if the world sees this and is stupefied.

    US foreign policy had derailed itself. 
    Poor China with all the people being anti them even though they are such an exemplary role model of treating people fairly, and respecting privacy, freedom of speech etc… or… well… let's get some people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Tibet, Macau, Xinjiang etc into this discussion about how unfairly treated the trustworthy the CCP is.
    You're mixing a lot of things up there. 

    It's not 'poor China'. They have plenty of stuff that could be frowned upon. So does the US. 

    That is not the point here. 

    The point is the 'justification', lack of any real evidence and the 'if you can't dominate the system, wreck it' attitude. 

    Threats, bullying, consequences, strong arming... 
    There are plenty of things that you logically speaking can't prove, that still would fall under common sense; like how you can't prove that it's going to rain, but if you leave your home and see clouds looking a certain way, then you bring an umbrella.

    That's the situation with China today. The CCP are acting very aggressively, have even very recently been caught spying, and have very complete and discreet control of any Chinese company if they so wish.

    That can't be ignored, and just like you don't leave your umbrella if it looks like rain, you don't leave your networks/people unprotected just because the communist party bully hasn't been caught doing his worst yet.

    Edit: Removed non-functioning emojis.
    Everybody spies. On everybody else. 

    The problem with your argument (from a western perspective) is that it isn't common sense at all. 

    If it were, evidence would be required to justify the action.

    There is none they can present so they fall back onto magical executive orders tailored to their specific needs. 

    This particular case looks like it will be challenged in the courts.

    This just part of the wider package of measures to thwart China's rise. Very few people doubt that IMO. 
    You can't prove everything that is about to happen before it actually happens; we simply don't live in a deterministic timeline where we can also watch the future before it happens.

    And you know that that argument of yours doesn't hold, you just dishonestly try to win an online argument; either for your personal sake, or for fifty cents.
    I never try to dishonestly win an argument.

    The whole national security angle is falling flat on its face.

    It's becoming a trump (lol) card that is getting played willy nilly. The practice will backfire. 
    That whole "because Trump said it"-angle doesn't really work either.

    If he calls a cucumber a cucumber it's still a cucumber, no matter how much I disagree with him about most things.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
Sign In or Register to comment.