At last someone has balls to stand up against constant assault on western world by China and protect American future. Thank you.
The constant assaults on the western world that I see are driven from the US.
Yeh, Europe just gave us the finger and told us to go away as we tried to manipulate "WHO reform" while the UK announced they would temporarily ban Huawei -- not due to any concerns over Huawei but over being strong armed by the U.S.
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Apple does well in China. It's one of their biggest and fastest growing markets.
GM just announced that their first all electric Cadillac would be first introduced and sold -- in China.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it. As Facebook publishes Trump's fake videos to smear his opponent as well as making it possible for him to target his propaganda so tightly that only his cult sees it and, therefor, there is no opportunity for his lies to be refuted. So, it looks like maybe the U.S. should ban it too.
Not mentioned of course is the fact that China has long banned all Google apps, Twitter, Facebook,, etc. This order should have come long ago and strictly as a matter of reciprocity.
Do American has to set their standards this low? Comparing with China is not much better than comparing Nazi.
It makes no sense for the United States to allow another country to block our biggest tech companies from operating, yet not apply the same standard to them. When China starts acting like a free market then we can happily do business with them.
But, that's the trouble: China DID start acting like a free market and beat us at it: They made (and make) things better, faster and cheaper. So, the free markets migrated there. It's just how free markets work. We should know that. We knew that. But we forgot after we got fat, spoiled and lazy.
In no sense is China a free market. Sure it became more market orientated since Mao but the state and particularly the state owned banks dictate a lot of policy. I’m not knocking it, the fully free market has had its day.
All globalisation has to be agreed to. It’s not an inevitable fact of nature, as some say. The US And the West had to agree to allow Japan and China trade freely. The former was allowed for Cold War reasons, the latter because of the greed of capitalists. Moving manufacturing to china isn’t inevitable, the Germans have tried to protect industry, as have the Japanese who don’t outsource to China. Nor does china outsource much itself.
Sorry, but that's how free markets work: The work and the business go to those who do it better, faster and cheaper.
Now that we got beat at that game we want to make excuses and change the rules. It's really pretty sad.
The work and business can only go to countries if there is a trade agreement. Clearly.
You are confusing the terms “free market” and globalisation. The former describes an economic system with little government interference (particularly little or no government ownership of production, all capitalist countries have social welfare and anti monopoly laws). The second is the ideology that everybody benefits if tariffs are reduced worldwide. You can have the former without the latter - the US was highly unregulated in the 19C but was behind a huge tariff wall. You can have the latter without the former if you let non market countries compete in global markets, which is where China sits.
Not mentioned of course is the fact that China has long banned all Google apps, Twitter, Facebook,, etc. This order should have come long ago and strictly as a matter of reciprocity.
Do American has to set their standards this low? Comparing with China is not much better than comparing Nazi.
It makes no sense for the United States to allow another country to block our biggest tech companies from operating, yet not apply the same standard to them. When China starts acting like a free market then we can happily do business with them.
But, that's the trouble: China DID start acting like a free market and beat us at it: They made (and make) things better, faster and cheaper. So, the free markets migrated there. It's just how free markets work. We should know that. We knew that. But we forgot after we got fat, spoiled and lazy.
In no sense is China a free market. Sure it became more market orientated since Mao but the state and particularly the state owned banks dictate a lot of policy. I’m not knocking it, the fully free market has had its day.
All globalisation has to be agreed to. It’s not an inevitable fact of nature, as some say. The US And the West had to agree to allow Japan and China trade freely. The former was allowed for Cold War reasons, the latter because of the greed of capitalists. Moving manufacturing to china isn’t inevitable, the Germans have tried to protect industry, as have the Japanese who don’t outsource to China. Nor does china outsource much itself.
Sorry, but that's how free markets work: The work and the business go to those who do it better, faster and cheaper.
Now that we got beat at that game we want to make excuses and change the rules. It's really pretty sad.
The work and business can only go to countries if there is a trade agreement. Clearly.
You are confusing the terms “free market” and globalisation. The former describes an economic system with little government interference (particularly little or no government ownership of production, all capitalist countries have social welfare and anti monopoly laws). The second is the ideology that everybody benefits if tariffs are reduced worldwide. You can have the former without the latter - the US was highly unregulated in the 19C but was behind a huge tariff wall. You can have the latter without the former if you let non market countries compete in global markets, which is where China sits.
WTO was created many years ago so members countries will use its rules in place of trade agreement between member countries.
Never forget that Trump at a previous face to face meeting with Xi of China, asked Xi's help in keeping him elected but Xi refused (see John Bolton's disclosure). These are now the payback against China. As a US commentator said, this is a classic mafia tactic. US's global reputation has just gone down another major tier.
Thanks for more Chinese propaganda. We have this thing sewn up. China’s influence over the US is being severed... one gigantic tentacle at a time.
But at the same time, with each tentacle, Trump shoots himself in the foot (often with an accompany tweet that reveals what's going on in his head).
It's only a question of time before he shoots himself in the figurative head. He is also causing enormous friction with US allies.
Let's not forget the trade war isn't (and not by a long shot) a China trade war.
The US trade deficit is not only with China but with the world. The world knows that if he wangles something with China, focus will switch to other areas like the EU and that is why the EU is proactively taking action to protect itself from what the US is trying to do to China.
I’m perfectly OK with a full decoupling of the US from China.
That probably will never happen unless we can come up with the 1.1 trillion we owe them and then figure out what we will do about manufacturing.
We screwed ourselves when we moved industrial manufacturing to China and they made an infrastructure that can make anything quickly, but has virtually no long term durability to keep costs low.
Maybe if we spent more time working together to be less reliant on China instead of fighting each other, we would have started the framework of divesting from China. Both parties thought moving to China was a good idea and nobody ever thought that a foreign country would buy up American t-bills, notes and bonds and weaponize them.
The real tragedy is the truth that our government both left and right can give 2 shits about our people who are barely holding on in this pandemic. They cannot come up with just a basic plan to help those who are on their last leg and are about to be starving and homeless.
They just want your vote to keep their place in line to get their special interest money. That’s why you won’t see any help until we are almost near Election Day and they can spin it towards their advantage.
If the US wants to compete with China on manufacturing, especially for electronics, then they need to create an educational structure that provides skilled engineers for the industry. They also need to create the investment infrastructure to build factories that can be on the cutting edge of the competition. Look at Apple, they stay ahead of the competition by constantly innovating and acquiring expertise where needed. They outsource manufacturing only because there is no capability in the scale, cost and adaptability they need in the US. The problem with US politicians is that they have only short term goals (to stay in office) and businesses are only concerned about making a fast buck. Apple stand out because they had long term plans to build upon their earlier and well thought out successes.
Not mentioned of course is the fact that China has long banned all Google apps, Twitter, Facebook,, etc. This order should have come long ago and strictly as a matter of reciprocity.
Do American has to set their standards this low? Comparing with China is not much better than comparing Nazi.
It makes no sense for the United States to allow another country to block our biggest tech companies from operating, yet not apply the same standard to them. When China starts acting like a free market then we can happily do business with them.
But, that's the trouble: China DID start acting like a free market and beat us at it: They made (and make) things better, faster and cheaper. So, the free markets migrated there. It's just how free markets work. We should know that. We knew that. But we forgot after we got fat, spoiled and lazy.
In no sense is China a free market. Sure it became more market orientated since Mao but the state and particularly the state owned banks dictate a lot of policy. I’m not knocking it, the fully free market has had its day.
All globalisation has to be agreed to. It’s not an inevitable fact of nature, as some say. The US And the West had to agree to allow Japan and China trade freely. The former was allowed for Cold War reasons, the latter because of the greed of capitalists. Moving manufacturing to china isn’t inevitable, the Germans have tried to protect industry, as have the Japanese who don’t outsource to China. Nor does china outsource much itself.
Sorry, but that's how free markets work: The work and the business go to those who do it better, faster and cheaper.
Now that we got beat at that game we want to make excuses and change the rules. It's really pretty sad.
The work and business can only go to countries if there is a trade agreement. Clearly.
You are confusing the terms “free market” and globalisation. The former describes an economic system with little government interference (particularly little or no government ownership of production, all capitalist countries have social welfare and anti monopoly laws). The second is the ideology that everybody benefits if tariffs are reduced worldwide. You can have the former without the latter - the US was highly unregulated in the 19C but was behind a huge tariff wall. You can have the latter without the former if you let non market countries compete in global markets, which is where China sits.
LOL... That's what happens when you ignore (or never knew) history!
History is clear:
1) Our basic industries that had been hugely profitable were being challenged by Japan because they were doing it better, cheaper and faster.
2) We tried to protect those industries with protective tariffs. The effort failed. Industry was fleeing the country left and right.
3) Globalization stepped in to save what was left of American industry.
4) Now we are going back to step #2 because people are believing a populist charlatan who tells them "I will save you! And, only I can save you!" And, just like the desperate, displaced workers believed Hitler 90 years ago, scared, humiliated, desperate displaced workers believe the same spiel from the current day Hitler.
Never forget that Trump at a previous face to face meeting with Xi of China, asked Xi's help in keeping him elected but Xi refused (see John Bolton's disclosure). These are now the payback against China. As a US commentator said, this is a classic mafia tactic. US's global reputation has just gone down another major tier.
Thanks for more Chinese propaganda. We have this thing sewn up. China’s influence over the US is being severed... one gigantic tentacle at a time.
But at the same time, with each tentacle, Trump shoots himself in the foot (often with an accompany tweet that reveals what's going on in his head).
It's only a question of time before he shoots himself in the figurative head. He is also causing enormous friction with US allies.
Let's not forget the trade war isn't (and not by a long shot) a China trade war.
The US trade deficit is not only with China but with the world. The world knows that if he wangles something with China, focus will switch to other areas like the EU and that is why the EU is proactively taking action to protect itself from what the US is trying to do to China.
I’m perfectly OK with a full decoupling of the US from China.
That probably will never happen unless we can come up with the 1.1 trillion we owe them and then figure out what we will do about manufacturing.
We screwed ourselves when we moved industrial manufacturing to China and they made an infrastructure that can make anything quickly, but has virtually no long term durability to keep costs low.
Maybe if we spent more time working together to be less reliant on China instead of fighting each other, we would have started the framework of divesting from China. Both parties thought moving to China was a good idea and nobody ever thought that a foreign country would buy up American t-bills, notes and bonds and weaponize them.
The real tragedy is the truth that our government both left and right can give 2 shits about our people who are barely holding on in this pandemic. They cannot come up with just a basic plan to help those who are on their last leg and are about to be starving and homeless.
They just want your vote to keep their place in line to get their special interest money. That’s why you won’t see any help until we are almost near Election Day and they can spin it towards their advantage.
If the US wants to compete with China on manufacturing, especially for electronics, then they need to create an educational structure that provides skilled engineers for the industry. They also need to create the investment infrastructure to build factories that can be on the cutting edge of the competition.
....
True! But it will take more than an educated workforce and investment.
It will take:
-- Workers who work harder and cheaper.
-- Management who manage more effectively and efficiently
-- Stock holders who don't rape the company of its profits and instead reinvest in that company.
-- Government who supports business and industry with things like infrastructure to support it.
Not mentioned of course is the fact that China has long banned all Google apps, Twitter, Facebook,, etc. This order should have come long ago and strictly as a matter of reciprocity.
Do American has to set their standards this low? Comparing with China is not much better than comparing Nazi.
It makes no sense for the United States to allow another country to block our biggest tech companies from operating, yet not apply the same standard to them. When China starts acting like a free market then we can happily do business with them.
But, that's the trouble: China DID start acting like a free market and beat us at it: They made (and make) things better, faster and cheaper. So, the free markets migrated there. It's just how free markets work. We should know that. We knew that. But we forgot after we got fat, spoiled and lazy.
In no sense is China a free market. Sure it became more market orientated since Mao but the state and particularly the state owned banks dictate a lot of policy. I’m not knocking it, the fully free market has had its day.
All globalisation has to be agreed to. It’s not an inevitable fact of nature, as some say. The US And the West had to agree to allow Japan and China trade freely. The former was allowed for Cold War reasons, the latter because of the greed of capitalists. Moving manufacturing to china isn’t inevitable, the Germans have tried to protect industry, as have the Japanese who don’t outsource to China. Nor does china outsource much itself.
Sorry, but that's how free markets work: The work and the business go to those who do it better, faster and cheaper.
Now that we got beat at that game we want to make excuses and change the rules. It's really pretty sad.
The work and business can only go to countries if there is a trade agreement. Clearly.
You are confusing the terms “free market” and globalisation. The former describes an economic system with little government interference (particularly little or no government ownership of production, all capitalist countries have social welfare and anti monopoly laws). The second is the ideology that everybody benefits if tariffs are reduced worldwide. You can have the former without the latter - the US was highly unregulated in the 19C but was behind a huge tariff wall. You can have the latter without the former if you let non market countries compete in global markets, which is where China sits.
LOL... That's what happens when you ignore (or never knew) history!
History is clear:
1) Our basic industries that had been hugely profitable were being challenged by Japan because they were doing it better, cheaper and faster.
2) We tried to protect those industries with protective tariffs. The effort failed. Industry was fleeing the country left and right.
3) Globalization stepped in to save what was left of American industry.
4) Now we are going back to step #2 because people are believing a populist charlatan who tells them "I will save you! And, only I can save you!" And, just like the desperate, displaced workers believed Hitler 90 years ago, scared, humiliated, desperate displaced workers believe the same spiel from the current day Hitler.
The idea that I know less than you is quite amusing. You were using the free market as a synonym for globalisation until schooled.
1) japan was doing it faster and better. Nevertheless japan could only compete by being allowed to trade. You don’t seem to understand this. Globalisation is a decision made by politicians not an inevitable fact of life. Nor is it the “free market”. You seemed to have moved away from that argument.
2) there were small tariffs applied in the 80s to japan. By and large the us needed Japan as an ally so it kept Japan as a most favoured nation from 1945.
3) No idea what that means. If a country loses most of its manufacturing due to globalisation, it’s hard to see what benefit globalisation has done for manufacturing. A few foreign owned businesses coming back isn’t recompense.
4) sure he can’t save you. That anti globalisation movement was needed 20 years ago and only existed on small pockets of the left. China is the future and I am fine with that. In fact I got into this debate to challenge your badly understood use of the term “free market”
And as I said before China winning isn’t the “free market” winning because China isn’t a free market country. ( Specifically under WTO rules it is designated as non free market).
Anyway I get the impression you think you are a leftist, in reality you are an extreme neo liberal. America would have been better off with a protectionist statist model than one where the free market applied
Not mentioned of course is the fact that China has long banned all Google apps, Twitter, Facebook,, etc. This order should have come long ago and strictly as a matter of reciprocity.
Do American has to set their standards this low? Comparing with China is not much better than comparing Nazi.
It makes no sense for the United States to allow another country to block our biggest tech companies from operating, yet not apply the same standard to them. When China starts acting like a free market then we can happily do business with them.
But, that's the trouble: China DID start acting like a free market and beat us at it: They made (and make) things better, faster and cheaper. So, the free markets migrated there. It's just how free markets work. We should know that. We knew that. But we forgot after we got fat, spoiled and lazy.
In no sense is China a free market. Sure it became more market orientated since Mao but the state and particularly the state owned banks dictate a lot of policy. I’m not knocking it, the fully free market has had its day.
All globalisation has to be agreed to. It’s not an inevitable fact of nature, as some say. The US And the West had to agree to allow Japan and China trade freely. The former was allowed for Cold War reasons, the latter because of the greed of capitalists. Moving manufacturing to china isn’t inevitable, the Germans have tried to protect industry, as have the Japanese who don’t outsource to China. Nor does china outsource much itself.
Sorry, but that's how free markets work: The work and the business go to those who do it better, faster and cheaper.
Now that we got beat at that game we want to make excuses and change the rules. It's really pretty sad.
The work and business can only go to countries if there is a trade agreement. Clearly.
You are confusing the terms “free market” and globalisation. The former describes an economic system with little government interference (particularly little or no government ownership of production, all capitalist countries have social welfare and anti monopoly laws). The second is the ideology that everybody benefits if tariffs are reduced worldwide. You can have the former without the latter - the US was highly unregulated in the 19C but was behind a huge tariff wall. You can have the latter without the former if you let non market countries compete in global markets, which is where China sits.
LOL... That's what happens when you ignore (or never knew) history!
History is clear:
1) Our basic industries that had been hugely profitable were being challenged by Japan because they were doing it better, cheaper and faster.
2) We tried to protect those industries with protective tariffs. The effort failed. Industry was fleeing the country left and right.
3) Globalization stepped in to save what was left of American industry.
4) Now we are going back to step #2 because people are believing a populist charlatan who tells them "I will save you! And, only I can save you!" And, just like the desperate, displaced workers believed Hitler 90 years ago, scared, humiliated, desperate displaced workers believe the same spiel from the current day Hitler.
The idea that I know less than you is quite amusing. You were using the free market as a synonym for globalisation until schooled.
1) japan was doing it faster and better. Nevertheless japan could only compete by being allowed to trade. You don’t seem to understand this. Globalisation is a decision made by politicians not an inevitable fact of life. Nor is it the “free market”. You seemed to have moved away from that argument.
2) there were small tariffs applied in the 80s to japan. By and large the us needed Japan as an ally so it kept Japan as a most favoured nation from 1945.
3) No idea what that means. If a country loses most of its manufacturing due to globalisation, it’s hard to see what benefit globalisation has done for manufacturing. A few foreign owned businesses coming back isn’t recompense.
4) sure he can’t save you. That anti globalisation movement was needed 20 years ago and only existed on small pockets of the left. China is the future and I am fine with that. In fact I got into this debate to challenge your badly understood use of the term “free market”
And as I said before China winning isn’t the “free market” winning because China isn’t a free market country. ( Specifically under WTO rules it is designated as non free market).
Anyway I get the impression you think you are a leftist, in reality you are an extreme neo liberal. America would have been better off with a protectionist statist model than one where the free market applied
LOL no, you didn't "School" me in anything. And no, I never confused the two terms.
The
part you are still missing is: Globalization was a the response to
American industry moving oversees -- not the cause. The cause was free
market capitalism where Japan did it better, faster and cheaper than
than we did -- so American industry was forced to move over there (and
to China and elsewhere). You claim that free markets only exist where
(our) government does not interfere. But, like the law of the jungle,
it always exists in international trade. Governments can try to blunt it or
slow it or tweak it, but it remains the basic law. Yes, as I pointed out, we tried
to blunt that with protective tariffs, but they failed. Very simply, tariffs can't protect you from your own inefficiencies. So,
globalization where each did what they do best was the only rational
answer.
Unfortunately, Trump has rewritten that history to suit his own political ends. And, the "U S A !" chanting fools believe.
And you are correct I am not a "leftist". Neither though am I a "neoliberal". I am a realist.
America never came to grips with the fact that it got beat fair and square at its own game. American capitalism died of its own success -- in its overconfidence it got fat, lazy and greedy. And the result is this fiasco of Trump's promising great things and actually causing great harm.
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
As for how they run it: They tend to ban propaganda. Particularly propaganda disguised as "news". We used to do the same. But FauxNews changed all that and today, in the U.S., the right wing crazies tend to be unable to discern the difference between facts and what they call "alternative facts". That China won't let that happen in their own country drives the right wing crazies even crazier.
But, here in the U.S. we have a foreign enemy using social media (and other means) to attack our elections and install their own shill as the head of our government. And the right wing crazies use our own Constitution to defend that attack and those attacking us.
So, what does America's right wing do? It's "Look over there! (at China)"
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
We only can have one real enemy at a time?
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
We only can have one real enemy at a time?
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Oh, LOL... now your REALLY reaching.
Why do you say we can only have one enemy at a time? I never said that.
And, using the word "obviously" does not make bullshit anymore true or accurate. And sorry, truth is truth and propaganda is propaganda -- unless you're a crazed right winger, then there isn't much difference. It's whatever serves your needs.
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
We only can have one real enemy at a time?
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Oh, LOL... now your REALLY reaching.
Why do you say we can only have one enemy at a time? I never said that.
2....using the word "obviously" does not make bullshit anymore true or accurate.
3. truth is truth and propaganda is propaganda -- unless you're a crazed right winger, then there isn't much difference
You see that little squirrely thing at the end, just like the one at the end of your sentence and this one? It's a question and not a statement. I thought that would have been more obvious to you. So now that you understand it's a question is it possible both China and Russia are making efforts at weakening the US, "real enemies" distributing propaganda in order to influence US politics? Is this where instead of answering you pivot to "the US does it too and they're worse"?
2. And if China isn't "obviously" worried that many of the freedoms we have here in the US are dangerous to Chinese citizens then in your opinion what is the reason China would ban search engines, international news providers, video services, and music providers that don't originate from Chinese sources?
3. What about crazed left-wingers? Do they spread propaganda? Agents of foreign governments such as China, Iran and Russia, do they also spread propaganda? All you ever talk about is "right-wingers, who often seem to be defined as those who disagree with or question you in the forums.
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
We only can have one real enemy at a time?
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Oh, LOL... now your REALLY reaching.
Why do you say we can only have one enemy at a time? I never said that. ...using the word "obviously" does not make bullshit anymore true or accurate.
You see that little squirrely thing at the end, just like the one at the end of your sentence and this one? It's a question and not a statement. I thought that would have been more obvious to you. So now that you understand it's a question is it possible both China and Russia are making efforts at weakening the US, "real enemies" distributing propaganda in order to influence US politics? Is this where instead of answering you pivot to "the US does it too and they're worse"?
And if China isn't "obviously" worried that many of the freedoms we have here in the US are dangerous to Chinese citizens then in your opinion what is the reason China would ban search engines, international news providers, video services, and music providers that don't originate from Chinese sources?
Nice walk back!
By the way, while it is "possible" that both China and Russia are attacking U.S. elections. But U.S. intelligence as well as Republican led senate committees have consistently confirmed that it is only Russia. Again: IT IS AND HAS BEEN RUSSIA ATTACKING OUR ELECTIONS - Not China and not even the "400 pound fat boy from his bed". Russia did it in 2016, they did it in 2018 and they're doing it today in 2020 -- all to install their shill as our president.
And, quite obviously, that orange shill is doing absolutely nothing to stop them. Instead, as Mueller pointed out, he is encouraging them and cheering them on -- if not out right supporting them and colluding with them
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
We only can have one real enemy at a time?
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Oh, LOL... now your REALLY reaching.
Why do you say we can only have one enemy at a time? I never said that. ...using the word "obviously" does not make bullshit anymore true or accurate.
You see that little squirrely thing at the end, just like the one at the end of your sentence and this one? It's a question and not a statement. I thought that would have been more obvious to you. So now that you understand it's a question is it possible both China and Russia are making efforts at weakening the US, "real enemies" distributing propaganda in order to influence US politics? Is this where instead of answering you pivot to "the US does it too and they're worse"?
And if China isn't "obviously" worried that many of the freedoms we have here in the US are dangerous to Chinese citizens then in your opinion what is the reason China would ban search engines, international news providers, video services, and music providers that don't originate from Chinese sources?
Nice walk back!
And an excellent walk back from you too George. That's the first potentially negative admission regarding China that I've seen from you. It's a start.
Here in the US it can be corrected with a new administration and Congress elected in less than about 120 days. Would you agree? How does it get corrected in China with a President for life at the helm? Advantage United States.
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
We only can have one real enemy at a time?
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Oh, LOL... now your REALLY reaching.
Why do you say we can only have one enemy at a time? I never said that. ...using the word "obviously" does not make bullshit anymore true or accurate.
You see that little squirrely thing at the end, just like the one at the end of your sentence and this one? It's a question and not a statement. I thought that would have been more obvious to you. So now that you understand it's a question is it possible both China and Russia are making efforts at weakening the US, "real enemies" distributing propaganda in order to influence US politics? Is this where instead of answering you pivot to "the US does it too and they're worse"?
And if China isn't "obviously" worried that many of the freedoms we have here in the US are dangerous to Chinese citizens then in your opinion what is the reason China would ban search engines, international news providers, video services, and music providers that don't originate from Chinese sources?
Nice walk back!
And an excellent walk back from you too George. That's the first potentially negative admission regarding China that I've seen from you. It's a start.
Here in the US it can be corrected with a new administration and Congress elected in less than about 120 days. Would you agree? How does it get corrected in China with a President for life at the helm? Advantage United States.
So how did I criticize China? By mocking your attempt at condemning them because its POSSIBLE that they could do something wrong? That's hilarious! It's POSSIBLE for you to rob a bank tomorrow. It doesn't mean that you will.
And, with both Trump and Russia cheating to overturn our election, I would not count on a new administration. Despite more Americans wanting Trump in jail than in the White House, elections can be manipulated -- and this one is. The only question is: Which is more potent? The will of the people? Or Donnie & Vladimir's cheating?
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
We only can have one real enemy at a time?
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Oh, LOL... now your REALLY reaching.
Why do you say we can only have one enemy at a time? I never said that. ...using the word "obviously" does not make bullshit anymore true or accurate.
You see that little squirrely thing at the end, just like the one at the end of your sentence and this one? It's a question and not a statement. I thought that would have been more obvious to you. So now that you understand it's a question is it possible both China and Russia are making efforts at weakening the US, "real enemies" distributing propaganda in order to influence US politics? Is this where instead of answering you pivot to "the US does it too and they're worse"?
And if China isn't "obviously" worried that many of the freedoms we have here in the US are dangerous to Chinese citizens then in your opinion what is the reason China would ban search engines, international news providers, video services, and music providers that don't originate from Chinese sources?
Nice walk back!
And an excellent walk back from you too George. That's the first potentially negative admission regarding China that I've seen from you. It's a start.
Here in the US it can be corrected with a new administration and Congress elected in less than about 120 days. Would you agree? How does it get corrected in China with a President for life at the helm? Advantage United States.
So how did I criticize China? By mocking your attempt at condemning them because its POSSIBLE that they could do something wrong? That's hilarious! It's POSSIBLE for you to rob a bank tomorrow. It doesn't mean that you will.
And, with both Trump and Russia cheating to overturn our election, I would not count on a new administration. Despite more Americans wanting Trump in jail than in the White House, elections can be manipulated -- and this one is. The only question is: Which is more potent? The will of the people? Or Donnie & Vladimir's cheating?
The latter probably. I would also suggest this move is part of that. Betting within hours people who still need these services will have a firewall and tunnel operating to keep the channel open. That gives supportive groups on those services a free-kick at spreading disinformation without anyone being able to create accounts and see what they are spreading. Have a look at the misinformation campaigns during Australian and British elections via these services as just trial runs for the main game.
Mis-information is the key to the win. With Facebook losing influence for spreading fake and hate they need another channel before they buckle. WeChat, not Tik-Tok is the story here.
Wait a second, isn’t Facebook, Google and Twitter banned by China for several years? And now Tik Tok cannot be banned? They don’t have to sell to Microsoft, it was given to them as an option to get something before the ban! Trump has been much better to Tik Tok than China to Facebook and Twitter!
Have people forgotten China banned Facebook and Google for no reason?
I thought the US was a freer country than China? This isn’t just a trade war but a free speech issue.
China’s lopsided advantages, while the US remained restricted from China’s markets are still real. The PRC can get bent.
Explain to me again how the U.S. is "restricted" in China. And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it.
On top of Facebook and Google these companies are also blocked:
-Daily Motion -DuckDuckGo -Flickr -Vimeo -Wikipedia -Medium and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ; ...
China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
China runs their own country. We should try doing the same.
It sounds like China are the intelligent ones here....
Am I pro China? No. I'm no more pro-China than I am pro any other country. Instead, I'm simply against my own country doing stupid things that harm Americans -- including attacking scapegoats and strawmen to distract us from our real enemy.
We only can have one real enemy at a time?
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Oh, LOL... now your REALLY reaching.
Why do you say we can only have one enemy at a time? I never said that. ...using the word "obviously" does not make bullshit anymore true or accurate.
You see that little squirrely thing at the end, just like the one at the end of your sentence and this one? It's a question and not a statement. I thought that would have been more obvious to you. So now that you understand it's a question is it possible both China and Russia are making efforts at weakening the US, "real enemies" distributing propaganda in order to influence US politics? Is this where instead of answering you pivot to "the US does it too and they're worse"?
And if China isn't "obviously" worried that many of the freedoms we have here in the US are dangerous to Chinese citizens then in your opinion what is the reason China would ban search engines, international news providers, video services, and music providers that don't originate from Chinese sources?
Nice walk back!
And an excellent walk back from you too George. That's the first potentially negative admission regarding China that I've seen from you. It's a start.
Here in the US it can be corrected with a new administration and Congress elected in less than about 120 days. Would you agree? How does it get corrected in China with a President for life at the helm? Advantage United States.
So how did I criticize China? By mocking your attempt at condemning them because its POSSIBLE that they could do something wrong? That's hilarious! It's POSSIBLE for you to rob a bank tomorrow. It doesn't mean that you will.
And, with both Trump and Russia cheating to overturn our election, I would not count on a new administration. Despite more Americans wanting Trump in jail than in the White House, elections can be manipulated -- and this one is. The only question is: Which is more potent? The will of the people? Or Donnie & Vladimir's cheating?
The latter probably. I would also suggest this move is part of that. Betting within hours people who still need these services will have a firewall and tunnel operating to keep the channel open. That gives supportive groups on those services a free-kick at spreading disinformation without anyone being able to create accounts and see what they are spreading. Have a look at the misinformation campaigns during Australian and British elections via these services as just trial runs for the main game.
Mis-information is the key to the win. With Facebook losing influence for spreading fake and hate they need another channel before they buckle. WeChat, not Tik-Tok is the story here.
Yes, very true!
Just as computers made it so gerrymandering to rig elections can now be done with surgical precision and so it takes a massive uprising to overcome it, disinformation campaigns are now being conducted with even greater precision where, as you point out, the disinformation is spread in such a way that only believers see it -- so it can never be contested or refuted by truth and reality.
Unfortunately, America in its hubris over what it thinks is a great, unassailable, democracy that can never fail then fails to see how it is being undermined from within (with help from the outside too).
Trump's attempt to silence opponents by attacking TikTok is just the latest, most blatant example. But, as you mention, previous attacks on elections here and in the UK were just warmups.
Comments
Yeh, Europe just gave us the finger and told us to go away as we tried to manipulate "WHO reform" while the UK announced they would temporarily ban Huawei -- not due to any concerns over Huawei but over being strong armed by the U.S.
And, sorry, but U.S. social media doesn't hack it. As Facebook publishes Trump's fake videos to smear his opponent as well as making it possible for him to target his propaganda so tightly that only his cult sees it and, therefor, there is no opportunity for his lies to be refuted. So, it looks like maybe the U.S. should ban it too.
Look at Apple, they stay ahead of the competition by constantly innovating and acquiring expertise where needed. They outsource manufacturing only because there is no capability in the scale, cost and adaptability they need in the US. The problem with US politicians is that they have only short term goals (to stay in office) and businesses are only concerned about making a fast buck. Apple stand out because they had long term plans to build upon their earlier and well thought out successes.
japan could only compete by being allowed to trade. You don’t seem to understand this. Globalisation is a decision made by politicians not an inevitable fact of life. Nor is it the “free market”. You seemed to have moved away from that argument.
-Daily Motion
-DuckDuckGo
-Flickr
-Vimeo
-Wikipedia
-Medium
and at least several dozen others.
Please comment on this one especially @GeorgeBMac ;
... China blocks TikTok as well, and you've never given any indication that anything China does is an issue for you, so explain why the US shouldn't also block TikTok?
So, what does America's right wing do? It's "Look over there! (at China)"
China's government obviously feels much of what makes the US the US intends to or at least inadvertently harms them, and thus is banned for Chinese citizens. Is it OK that the US government in turn feels much of what makes China the country they are intended to or inadvertently harms our citizens too, and thus bans are just as warranted? A straight answer from you for once would be a nice change of pace.
As far as propaganda who should be determining what is and is not? Some will consider some of what you post to be propaganda. Fair portrayal?
Oh, LOL... now your REALLY reaching.
And sorry, truth is truth and propaganda is propaganda -- unless you're a crazed right winger, then there isn't much difference. It's whatever serves your needs.
2. And if China isn't "obviously" worried that many of the freedoms we have here in the US are dangerous to Chinese citizens then in your opinion what is the reason China would ban search engines, international news providers, video services, and music providers that don't originate from Chinese sources?
3. What about crazed left-wingers? Do they spread propaganda? Agents of foreign governments such as China, Iran and Russia, do they also spread propaganda? All you ever talk about is "right-wingers, who often seem to be defined as those who disagree with or question you in the forums.
Here in the US it can be corrected with a new administration and Congress elected in less than about 120 days. Would you agree? How does it get corrected in China with a President for life at the helm? Advantage United States.