Epic calls Apple's 'Fortnite' & developer tool block 'overbroad retaliation'

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 81
    I think Apple is vulnerable here because they appear to have made exceptions for developers and apps like Amazon. Without a clear set of rules as to when fees are discounted etc that leaves them open to charges they are just running their own show. If they stuck to the guidelines across the board Epic has a much harder time. 
    That's more of a PR problem than a legal problem re: Apple saying "we treat everyone the same". Stores aren't legally required to give every seller the same deal. Epic's own digital store gives a discount on Epic's cut if the game uses the Unreal Engine. 
    svanstromwatto_cobra
  • Reply 62 of 81
    urahara said:
    crowley said:
    tommikele said:
    Epic has no intention of passing on any gains to consumers. It will go right in the pockets of the company and owners. 
    This is speculative and does not seem to be true based on the available evidence of the commission rate on the Epic Game Store, and what Epic actually offered when this whole fiasco started.. 


    Discount price is often offered for a limited time. It’s just a public stunt. They can raise the price fot direct payment anytime they want.  
    Moreover, you can sideload the game on Android to enjoy those prices. Is that what you want? Then use Android. The devices are often also cheaper. 
    You want everything cheaper. So buy cheaper stuff. Don’t buy Apple’s stuff if you don’t want to pay Apple. 
    What amazes me is that screenshot isn’t not a discount. They get from Apple (6.99) after the 30%. Then they offer a “discount” because “Apple is a Bully” yet the discount net them an additional dollar at 7.99. 

    If they were so concerned for their customers they will just charged them 6.99. But no they wanted to use their dumb Fornite players to help them bully Apple to change their rules while pocketing an additional ($1). Greedy. They saw coming Apple stoping Fornite downloads but they didn’t see coming Apple kicking them out entirely. Now they are desperate begging the courts to stop it. Apple is very reasonable and if Epic remove the direct payment option from the last update and fix the other violations they will let them in. I do hope Epic will continue with the tantrum for a few more days and get kicked out for good. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 63 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    Apple_Bar said:
    danvm said:
    altivec88 said:
    Pretty easy solution.  Epic can continue their lawsuit while following the same rules they followed for a decade. What’s a few more years until it gets sorted out in the courts. In fact they can even sue to get back all Apple charges retrospective from this point if they are successful. Which they won’t be. 

    This is tantamount to saying I want to break the rules while we figure this out and throw a childish public tantrum jeopardizing all our customers work.  

    Love Microsoft for helping out Epic. It will be funny when Epic goes after them next wanting the xbox store open and there 30% fee eliminated. 

    If I was considering using Unreal engine for my game, it would be a hard pass after this. Epic seems to be a flake company that only cares about themselves. Who knows what their next crusade will be after this. Way too much volatility for me to base my work on. 
    I don’t think MS would have problems with an alternate store, considering they already have one with EA Play. 

    Also you are not forced to pay the 30% of the App Store for your games, as happens with iOS / iPadOS devices, since you can sell your boxed games in major retailers. 
    LMAO and those major retailers don’t get a 30% commission to put the boxed games in THEIR stores???

    The ignorance in these Epic vs Apple posts is astronomical.
    My point was that console game developers have options not available in iOS / iPadOS, and retailers was one of them.  I haven’t seen an article about retailers and 30% commissions for boxed games. Can you post one?
    Yupindeedy.

    https://www.analysisgroup.com/globalassets/insights/publishing/apples_app_store_and_other_digital_marketplaces_a_comparison_of_commission_rates.pdf

    • Software developers typically received 30–40% of the retail price of boxed software before the advent of digital software downloads. The remaining 60–70% went to distributors and retailers. By contrast, developers who distribute software via app stores or digital software distribution platforms typically collect 70–85% of the sales price. 

    In the study you posted, they separate video games from software.  If you read the appendix, under video games, the references they use are, in some cases, from 12 years old.  In 12 years the gaming industry have changed a lot.  Are those reference valid today?  I really don't know.  It would be far better if they had use references from recent years.  

    Also noticed that 
    Retailers weren't charging 30% for putting boxed software on their shelves; they were charging 60%, which is why you can't buy boxed software anymore.
    I think that a few months ago, I saw at Office Depot a rack with boxed software.  It's clear that boxed software is dying, but still available.  
    Peza
  • Reply 64 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    altivec88 said:
    Pretty easy solution.  Epic can continue their lawsuit while following the same rules they followed for a decade. What’s a few more years until it gets sorted out in the courts. In fact they can even sue to get back all Apple charges retrospective from this point if they are successful. Which they won’t be. 

    This is tantamount to saying I want to break the rules while we figure this out and throw a childish public tantrum jeopardizing all our customers work.  

    Love Microsoft for helping out Epic. It will be funny when Epic goes after them next wanting the xbox store open and there 30% fee eliminated. 

    If I was considering using Unreal engine for my game, it would be a hard pass after this. Epic seems to be a flake company that only cares about themselves. Who knows what their next crusade will be after this. Way too much volatility for me to base my work on. 
    I don’t think MS would have problems with an alternate store, considering they already have one with EA Play. 

    Also you are not forced to pay the 30% of the App Store for your games, as happens with iOS / iPadOS devices, since you can sell your boxed games in major retailers. 
    People like you still don't get it. It's not about how much it cost you to pay a 30% cut but how much you make with your 70% cut. Get with the program.

    If you sold your $5 software at your garage sales every weekend, you can keep 100% of the sale. But what use is keeping 100%, if you only sell 5 copies a weekend. That's $25 in your pocket every weekend. 

    But if you rent a booth at a flea market, you might be able to sell 20 copies a weekend. But when adding the cost of renting the booth and time to set up at the flea market, you might end up keeping 85%. That's $85 in your pocket every weekend. 

    Say that you make a deal with a local computer store where they will sell your software for a 20% cut. If they sell 100 copies a week, that's $400 in your pocket. 

    Or maybe you can sell your software at the Apple App Store or Google Play Store, where it's listed 24/7, Apple and Google handle the whole transaction and you sell 500 copies every week. That would be $1750 in your pocket, after paying the 30% cut.

    Are you really going to say that ......... no way I'm paying Apple or Google a 30% cut and only get to keep 70%? Apple is robbing me blind. I rather keep 100% with my garage sales or 85% selling at the flea market or 80% selling at my local computer store?  

    You can pay a 50% cut in the app stores and still come out ahead by having more money in your pocket. You are truly clueless, if you think paying less of a commission elsewhere, means you're going to be making more money. 

    Plus with the app stores, it cost you nothing, except maybe time (and the $99 a year license with allows to to submit as many software as you develop in a year), if you don't sell any of your software. It's not like selling at a flea market where it will still cost you time, gas and money, even if you don't make any sales.Or the time to takes to go to your local computer store, to do inventory and calculate what you are owed.

    Do you have over a billion people walking by your home every weekend? Or walking pass your booth at the flea market? Or your local computer store serves over a billion international customers in their store? 
    I have no problem with the 30% from the App Store, since I'm not a developer, neither have issues with Apple getting paid.  I just pointed out that with consoles you have options not available with the iOS / iPadOS App Store, like selling in retailers or even have your own store, as EA did.  
    edited August 2020
  • Reply 65 of 81
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,024member
    Peza said:
    sdw2001 said:
    Anything can happen, but I don’t see how Epic has a leg to stand on here.  Apple’s terms are clear.  They deliberately violated them, Apple lowered the boom, and Epic *immediately* sued.   Now you have Apple’s competitors chiming in.  Who knows though.  These things go on for years and rarely have a clear outcome.  
    Microsoft has officially opened the door into its business contracts with Epic Games. Is Microsoft’s participation with Epic Games predicated on Epic Games not pursuing litigation against Microsoft’s closed Xbox game store? Also, how many iOS video games based on Unreal Engine does Microsoft have on the App Store?
    Let me just stop your misguided comment here..

    Xbox does NOT have a closed store. You can install the EA E Shop if you want to onto your Xbox and buy and install games totally separate from the Xbox store.
    And that’s not even mentioning the endless brick and mortar stores I can buy games in, I can buy a game when buying food, or the endless online retailers I can buy a game from, or the endless brick and mortar AND online stores I can buy second hand games from, or the fact I can simply borrow a game totally free from a friend to play...
    So please don’t even attempt to try and out a Microsoft’s store in the same light as the iOS store as I can ONLY get iOS apps from one place and one place only, and I can buy a Xbox game from countless places and resources and that’s a hard fact!  
    And let stop your misguided comment here. 

    The EA store is a subscription service. It cost $4.99 a month or $29.99 a year, to download and play any of  the games in their store. And that's' just for the EA membership. You will also need to pay $9.99 a month for the X-Box Live Gold membership if you want to play online games. And Once you stop paying EA Store membership fee, all your newer games you downloaded stops working. But older X-Box 360 games is yours to keep and will keep on working after you end your membership.If you end your X-Box live Gold subscription, you can not play online. Single player mode only. 

    MS is getting at least 15% of the membership fee for both the $4.99/M and $29.99/Y EA store membership fee. Plus MS is making $9.99/M for the X-Box Live Gold membership from players that wants to play games online. Plus MS will take a cut if you buy any of the games in the EAStore, through an X-Box. You can always buy the game elsewhere, but any discount coupon you earn only works if you buy from the X-Box.   

    EA store is nothing more than a "Netflix", where paying members can watch as many movies available, as often as they want, but can not keep any of them and they all stop playing as soon as you end your subscription. The EA store is a way for gamers to try dozens of games, before buying the the game, either with a digital download from the EA Store or a disc from a retailer.. And if they want, they can just keep paying the membership fees, in order to keep playing all the games available to them, on their X-Box.  

    With downloading games into the X-Box, there's only one place to download them, that's from the MS Store. You can buy the key code to unlock it from many retail venders. Or you can buy the physical disc, which might cost 2x as much as the digital download. But you must always go through the MS Store to download the a digital download  game into an X-Box, even if you're not paying for it there. You can not download a game into the X-Box from just anywhere. Dev. can not bypass MS rules, to load a game into an X-Box, not even with a disc. You can  not find an X-Box game on the internet and side load it into an X-Box.  Even the EA Store app must be downloaded from the MS Store. An X-Box owner can not just side load the EA store into an X-Box.  

    It is totally misguided of you to compare the the EA Store on an X-Box with that of a no membership fee app store in iOS or Android. The EA Store do not get to operate in an X-Box for free. They are paying "rent" to MS. And the only games available in the EA Store are games that paid MS a license to be played on an X-Box. A game developer can not list an X-Box game in either store without paying MS for a license. You're comparing Apples to oranges. 
    tmayhlee1169watto_cobra
  • Reply 66 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Peza said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    danvm said:
    Apple_Bar said:
    danvm said:
    altivec88 said:
    Pretty easy solution.  Epic can continue their lawsuit while following the same rules they followed for a decade. What’s a few more years until it gets sorted out in the courts. In fact they can even sue to get back all Apple charges retrospective from this point if they are successful. Which they won’t be. 

    This is tantamount to saying I want to break the rules while we figure this out and throw a childish public tantrum jeopardizing all our customers work.  

    Love Microsoft for helping out Epic. It will be funny when Epic goes after them next wanting the xbox store open and there 30% fee eliminated. 

    If I was considering using Unreal engine for my game, it would be a hard pass after this. Epic seems to be a flake company that only cares about themselves. Who knows what their next crusade will be after this. Way too much volatility for me to base my work on. 
    I don’t think MS would have problems with an alternate store, considering they already have one with EA Play. 

    Also you are not forced to pay the 30% of the App Store for your games, as happens with iOS / iPadOS devices, since you can sell your boxed games in major retailers. 
    LMAO and those major retailers don’t get a 30% commission to put the boxed games in THEIR stores???

    The ignorance in these Epic vs Apple posts is astronomical.
    My point was that console game developers have options not available in iOS / iPadOS, and retailers was one of them.  I haven’t seen an article about retailers and 30% commissions for boxed games. Can you post one?
    Yupindeedy.

    https://www.analysisgroup.com/globalassets/insights/publishing/apples_app_store_and_other_digital_marketplaces_a_comparison_of_commission_rates.pdf

    • Software developers typically received 30–40% of the retail price of boxed software before the advent of digital software downloads. The remaining 60–70% went to distributors and retailers. By contrast, developers who distribute software via app stores or digital software distribution platforms typically collect 70–85% of the sales price. 


    Retailers weren't charging 30% for putting boxed software on their shelves; they were charging 60%, which is why you can't buy boxed software anymore.
    Are you referring them programmes like Adobe as opposed to games in your last comment? Or  games?
    Boxed software is boxed software, whether it’s a word processor or a game. 
    In some cases, boxed software and boxed games are the same.  But in the study you posted, they separate software from video games.  
  • Reply 67 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    davidw said:
    Peza said:
    sdw2001 said:
    Anything can happen, but I don’t see how Epic has a leg to stand on here.  Apple’s terms are clear.  They deliberately violated them, Apple lowered the boom, and Epic *immediately* sued.   Now you have Apple’s competitors chiming in.  Who knows though.  These things go on for years and rarely have a clear outcome.  
    Microsoft has officially opened the door into its business contracts with Epic Games. Is Microsoft’s participation with Epic Games predicated on Epic Games not pursuing litigation against Microsoft’s closed Xbox game store? Also, how many iOS video games based on Unreal Engine does Microsoft have on the App Store?
    Let me just stop your misguided comment here..

    Xbox does NOT have a closed store. You can install the EA E Shop if you want to onto your Xbox and buy and install games totally separate from the Xbox store.
    And that’s not even mentioning the endless brick and mortar stores I can buy games in, I can buy a game when buying food, or the endless online retailers I can buy a game from, or the endless brick and mortar AND online stores I can buy second hand games from, or the fact I can simply borrow a game totally free from a friend to play...
    So please don’t even attempt to try and out a Microsoft’s store in the same light as the iOS store as I can ONLY get iOS apps from one place and one place only, and I can buy a Xbox game from countless places and resources and that’s a hard fact!  
    And let stop your misguided comment here. 

    The EA store is a subscription service. It cost $4.99 a month or $29.99 a year, to download and play any of  the games in their store. And that's' just for the EA membership. You will also need to pay $9.99 a month for the X-Box Live Gold membership if you want to play online games. And Once you stop paying EA Store membership fee, all your newer games you downloaded stops working. But older X-Box 360 games is yours to keep and will keep on working after you end your membership.If you end your X-Box live Gold subscription, you can not play online. Single player mode only. 

    MS is getting at least 15% of the membership fee for both the $4.99/M and $29.99/Y EA store membership fee. Plus MS is making $9.99/M for the X-Box Live Gold membership from players that wants to play games online. Plus MS will take a cut if you buy any of the games in the EAStore, through an X-Box. You can always buy the game elsewhere, but any discount coupon you earn only works if you buy from the X-Box.   

    EA store is nothing more than a "Netflix", where paying members can watch as many movies available, as often as they want, but can not keep any of them and they all stop playing as soon as you end your subscription. The EA store is a way for gamers to try dozens of games, before buying the the game, either with a digital download from the EA Store or a disc from a retailer.. And if they want, they can just keep paying the membership fees, in order to keep playing all the games available to them, on their X-Box.  

    With downloading games into the X-Box, there's only one place to download them, that's from the MS Store. You can buy the key code to unlock it from many retail venders. Or you can buy the physical disc, which might cost 2x as much as the digital download. But you must always go through the MS Store to download the a digital download  game into an X-Box, even if you're not paying for it there. You can not download a game into the X-Box from just anywhere. Dev. can not bypass MS rules, to load a game into an X-Box, not even with a disc. You can  not find an X-Box game on the internet and side load it into an X-Box.  Even the EA Store app must be downloaded from the MS Store. An X-Box owner can not just side load the EA store into an X-Box.  

    It is totally misguided of you to compare the the EA Store on an X-Box with that of a no membership fee app store in iOS or Android. The EA Store do not get to operate in an X-Box for free. They are paying "rent" to MS. And the only games available in the EA Store are games that paid MS a license to be played on an X-Box. A game developer can not list an X-Box game in either store without paying MS for a license. You're comparing Apples to oranges. 
    I don't think that someone would expect EA to operate for free in the XBox store.  At the same time, it's obvious that EA Play is a rental store.  MS could have forced EA to rent their games in GamePass, or just block EA Access, as Sony initially did.  Instead MS allowed them to have their own store, and manage customers subscription a part from GamePass.  It's clear that this option doesn't exist with iOS / iPadOS App Store.  
  • Reply 68 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    danvm said: My point was that console game developers have options not available in iOS / iPadOS, and retailers was one of them.  I haven’t seen an article about retailers and 30% commissions for boxed games. Can you post one?
    Game developers and publishers get about 45% of the retail price in brick/mortar stores. (see page 31 from the PDF link)

    https://www.analysisgroup.com/globalassets/insights/publishing/apples_app_store_and_other_digital_marketplaces_a_comparison_of_commission_rates.pdf

    This is one of the things that disproves the "pass the savings to customers" stuff that Epic is trying to sell. Why aren't prices for new console games always cheaper for a digital copy than brick/mortar if the developer/publisher get a higher percentage of the sale digitally (70% vs 45%)?
    I saw that study.  The only think that make my question it, specifically the video games part, is that some of the references they use are from 8 to 12 years old.  In that time the gaming industry change a lot.  Would be nice to see if that still applies today.
  • Reply 69 of 81
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,899member
    Public request from Epic. Hey Apple we want to screw you but when you respond, please be gentle!!
    thtretrogustohlee1169watto_cobra
  • Reply 70 of 81
    danvm said: At the same time, it's obvious that EA Play is a rental store.  MS could have forced EA to rent their games in GamePass, or just block EA Access, as Sony initially did.  Instead MS allowed them to have their own store, and manage customers subscription a part from GamePass.  It's clear that this option doesn't exist with iOS / iPadOS App Store.  
    It's not a store. It's a subscription service. You pay a monthly fee and get early access to EA games that you purchase separately (which still involves MS getting a 30% cut) and access to free downloads of older EA games. iOS/iPadOS obviously allow subscription services. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 71 of 81
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    aderutter said:
    If Apple don’t get the result they want they should just ban all in-app purchases in all games.
    No. Epic either adheres to the rules or they can continue to miss out on billions of dollars of revenue.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 72 of 81

    danvm said: I saw that study.  The only think that make my question it, specifically the video games part, is that some of the references they use are from 8 to 12 years old.  In that time the gaming industry change a lot.  Would be nice to see if that still applies today.
    If it didn't still apply today, Epic would be bringing it up publicly. Imagine retail cuts improving from 45% to better than 70% in the past six years (index reference is from 2014) and Epic fails to talk about it? That would be the perfect example of a market shift towards better percentages than what Apple offers. They're not talking about it because it never happened. 70% is still a significantly better percentage than what retail offers, yet the prices for console games at retail and on digital stores is usually identical for games that are newly released.
    edited August 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 81
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,011member
    sdw2001 said:
    Anything can happen, but I don’t see how Epic has a leg to stand on here.  Apple’s terms are clear.  They deliberately violated them, Apple lowered the boom, and Epic *immediately* sued.   Now you have Apple’s competitors chiming in.  Who knows though.  These things go on for years and rarely have a clear outcome.  
    Microsoft has officially opened the door into its business contracts with Epic Games. Is Microsoft’s participation with Epic Games predicated on Epic Games not pursuing litigation against Microsoft’s closed Xbox game store? Also, how many iOS video games based on Unreal Engine does Microsoft have on the App Store?
    Interesting questions.  No idea, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were all in on this together against Apple.  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 81
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    danvm said: At the same time, it's obvious that EA Play is a rental store.  MS could have forced EA to rent their games in GamePass, or just block EA Access, as Sony initially did.  Instead MS allowed them to have their own store, and manage customers subscription a part from GamePass.  It's clear that this option doesn't exist with iOS / iPadOS App Store.  
    It's not a store. It's a subscription service. You pay a monthly fee and get early access to EA games that you purchase separately (which still involves MS getting a 30% cut) and access to free downloads of older EA games. iOS/iPadOS obviously allow subscription services. 
    After reading your post again, I get your point.  When I talked about App Store was more in line the an alternate App Store, but in this case do not applies, since it's a subscription service.  

    BTW, EA Play is not only to download older games.  They have the EA Play Pro, that gives you access to games as soon as they release them.  
  • Reply 75 of 81
    PezaPeza Posts: 198member
    I think Apple is vulnerable here because they appear to have made exceptions for developers and apps like Amazon. Without a clear set of rules as to when fees are discounted etc that leaves them open to charges they are just running their own show. If they stuck to the guidelines across the board Epic has a much harder time. 
    That's more of a PR problem than a legal problem re: Apple saying "we treat everyone the same". Stores aren't legally required to give every seller the same deal. Epic's own digital store gives a discount on Epic's cut if the game uses the Unreal Engine. 
    Actually it is law you treat everyone the same, it’s called anti competitive behaviour. Hence big  investigations being performed into Apples actions. 
  • Reply 76 of 81
    XedXed Posts: 2,459member
    Peza said:
    I think Apple is vulnerable here because they appear to have made exceptions for developers and apps like Amazon. Without a clear set of rules as to when fees are discounted etc that leaves them open to charges they are just running their own show. If they stuck to the guidelines across the board Epic has a much harder time. 
    That's more of a PR problem than a legal problem re: Apple saying "we treat everyone the same". Stores aren't legally required to give every seller the same deal. Epic's own digital store gives a discount on Epic's cut if the game uses the Unreal Engine. 
    Actually it is law you treat everyone the same, it’s called anti competitive behaviour. Hence big  investigations being performed into Apples actions. 
    That is one misguided comment. 
    watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 77 of 81
    PezaPeza Posts: 198member

    davidw said:
    Peza said:
    sdw2001 said:
    Anything can happen, but I don’t see how Epic has a leg to stand on here.  Apple’s terms are clear.  They deliberately violated them, Apple lowered the boom, and Epic *immediately* sued.   Now you have Apple’s competitors chiming in.  Who knows though.  These things go on for years and rarely have a clear outcome.  
    Microsoft has officially opened the door into its business contracts with Epic Games. Is Microsoft’s participation with Epic Games predicated on Epic Games not pursuing litigation against Microsoft’s closed Xbox game store? Also, how many iOS video games based on Unreal Engine does Microsoft have on the App Store?
    Let me just stop your misguided comment here..

    Xbox does NOT have a closed store. You can install the EA E Shop if you want to onto your Xbox and buy and install games totally separate from the Xbox store.
    And that’s not even mentioning the endless brick and mortar stores I can buy games in, I can buy a game when buying food, or the endless online retailers I can buy a game from, or the endless brick and mortar AND online stores I can buy second hand games from, or the fact I can simply borrow a game totally free from a friend to play...
    So please don’t even attempt to try and out a Microsoft’s store in the same light as the iOS store as I can ONLY get iOS apps from one place and one place only, and I can buy a Xbox game from countless places and resources and that’s a hard fact!  
    And let stop your misguided comment here. 

    The EA store is a subscription service. It cost $4.99 a month or $29.99 a year, to download and play any of  the games in their store. And that's' just for the EA membership. You will also need to pay $9.99 a month for the X-Box Live Gold membership if you want to play online games. And Once you stop paying EA Store membership fee, all your newer games you downloaded stops working. But older X-Box 360 games is yours to keep and will keep on working after you end your membership.If you end your X-Box live Gold subscription, you can not play online. Single player mode only. 

    MS is getting at least 15% of the membership fee for both the $4.99/M and $29.99/Y EA store membership fee. Plus MS is making $9.99/M for the X-Box Live Gold membership from players that wants to play games online. Plus MS will take a cut if you buy any of the games in the EAStore, through an X-Box. You can always buy the game elsewhere, but any discount coupon you earn only works if you buy from the X-Box.   

    EA store is nothing more than a "Netflix", where paying members can watch as many movies available, as often as they want, but can not keep any of them and they all stop playing as soon as you end your subscription. The EA store is a way for gamers to try dozens of games, before buying the the game, either with a digital download from the EA Store or a disc from a retailer.. And if they want, they can just keep paying the membership fees, in order to keep playing all the games available to them, on their X-Box.  

    With downloading games into the X-Box, there's only one place to download them, that's from the MS Store. You can buy the key code to unlock it from many retail venders. Or you can buy the physical disc, which might cost 2x as much as the digital download. But you must always go through the MS Store to download the a digital download  game into an X-Box, even if you're not paying for it there. You can not download a game into the X-Box from just anywhere. Dev. can not bypass MS rules, to load a game into an X-Box, not even with a disc. You can  not find an X-Box game on the internet and side load it into an X-Box.  Even the EA Store app must be downloaded from the MS Store. An X-Box owner can not just side load the EA store into an X-Box.  

    It is totally misguided of you to compare the the EA Store on an X-Box with that of a no membership fee app store in iOS or Android. The EA Store do not get to operate in an X-Box for free. They are paying "rent" to MS. And the only games available in the EA Store are games that paid MS a license to be played on an X-Box. A game developer can not list an X-Box game in either store without paying MS for a license. You're comparing Apples to oranges. 
    So it’s a subscription service I git that one thing wrong, your obviously not sure what if any percentage MS takes. And it still doesn’t change the fact I can go and buy a game from multiple places outside MS. Including second hand, so the rest of my argument still stands.
    edited August 2020
  • Reply 78 of 81
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Peza said:
    I think something to keep in mind here is that, although Apple is the tip of the spear on this, the whole issue of exclusive access to a given ecosystem is what's at stake, especially when a mandatory fee arrangement is in place. GooglePlay for Android, App Store for iOS, iPadOS, etc, game stores for Switch, Xbox, Playstation, etc. Will governments, regulators and Courts allow this to continue without some modification? Hard to say honestly. It would be messy to undo this framework which, in the case of Apple, I happen to like due to security reasons. But if history is any guide (railroads, Standard Oil, Ma Bell), changes might be forced on these app store frameworks.
    Epic wanted its own App Store to sell to gamers directly, but did not want to build its own console or build its own phone.  Epic did not have problems with PlayStation, XBox, or Switch, but have problem with Apple and Google.

    It's nothing but a publicity stunt for Epic.  It could learn something from Amazon:  Amazon negotiated a deal to sell Apple TV in exchange to have Prime Video app in App Store that competes with Apple TV+.
    Again with the misguided information, or ignorance? But I can buy any Nintendo or Xbox or PlatStation game from countless brick and mortar and online stores both new and second hand and even borrow them totally free of friends or relatives. And then I can also install other e shops onto the Xbox and I think PlayStation to purchase games bypassing their own stores. Remember these cold hard facts when your trying to throw Microsoft into the same bus as Apple, with iOS where I can ONLY get my games and apps from the Apple store and NO WHERE else....
    Remember when Microsoft was going to stop the Xbox One from playing second hand or borrowed games?  Only public outcry stopped them.  I think Microsoft are a bit jealous that Apple has what they want.
    svanstrom
  • Reply 79 of 81
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,024member
    Peza said:

    davidw said:
    Peza said:
    sdw2001 said:
    Anything can happen, but I don’t see how Epic has a leg to stand on here.  Apple’s terms are clear.  They deliberately violated them, Apple lowered the boom, and Epic *immediately* sued.   Now you have Apple’s competitors chiming in.  Who knows though.  These things go on for years and rarely have a clear outcome.  
    Microsoft has officially opened the door into its business contracts with Epic Games. Is Microsoft’s participation with Epic Games predicated on Epic Games not pursuing litigation against Microsoft’s closed Xbox game store? Also, how many iOS video games based on Unreal Engine does Microsoft have on the App Store?
    Let me just stop your misguided comment here..

    Xbox does NOT have a closed store. You can install the EA E Shop if you want to onto your Xbox and buy and install games totally separate from the Xbox store.
    And that’s not even mentioning the endless brick and mortar stores I can buy games in, I can buy a game when buying food, or the endless online retailers I can buy a game from, or the endless brick and mortar AND online stores I can buy second hand games from, or the fact I can simply borrow a game totally free from a friend to play...
    So please don’t even attempt to try and out a Microsoft’s store in the same light as the iOS store as I can ONLY get iOS apps from one place and one place only, and I can buy a Xbox game from countless places and resources and that’s a hard fact!  
    And let stop your misguided comment here. 

    The EA store is a subscription service. It cost $4.99 a month or $29.99 a year, to download and play any of  the games in their store. And that's' just for the EA membership. You will also need to pay $9.99 a month for the X-Box Live Gold membership if you want to play online games. And Once you stop paying EA Store membership fee, all your newer games you downloaded stops working. But older X-Box 360 games is yours to keep and will keep on working after you end your membership.If you end your X-Box live Gold subscription, you can not play online. Single player mode only. 

    MS is getting at least 15% of the membership fee for both the $4.99/M and $29.99/Y EA store membership fee. Plus MS is making $9.99/M for the X-Box Live Gold membership from players that wants to play games online. Plus MS will take a cut if you buy any of the games in the EAStore, through an X-Box. You can always buy the game elsewhere, but any discount coupon you earn only works if you buy from the X-Box.   

    EA store is nothing more than a "Netflix", where paying members can watch as many movies available, as often as they want, but can not keep any of them and they all stop playing as soon as you end your subscription. The EA store is a way for gamers to try dozens of games, before buying the the game, either with a digital download from the EA Store or a disc from a retailer.. And if they want, they can just keep paying the membership fees, in order to keep playing all the games available to them, on their X-Box.  

    With downloading games into the X-Box, there's only one place to download them, that's from the MS Store. You can buy the key code to unlock it from many retail venders. Or you can buy the physical disc, which might cost 2x as much as the digital download. But you must always go through the MS Store to download the a digital download  game into an X-Box, even if you're not paying for it there. You can not download a game into the X-Box from just anywhere. Dev. can not bypass MS rules, to load a game into an X-Box, not even with a disc. You can  not find an X-Box game on the internet and side load it into an X-Box.  Even the EA Store app must be downloaded from the MS Store. An X-Box owner can not just side load the EA store into an X-Box.  

    It is totally misguided of you to compare the the EA Store on an X-Box with that of a no membership fee app store in iOS or Android. The EA Store do not get to operate in an X-Box for free. They are paying "rent" to MS. And the only games available in the EA Store are games that paid MS a license to be played on an X-Box. A game developer can not list an X-Box game in either store without paying MS for a license. You're comparing Apples to oranges. 
    So it’s a subscription service I git that one thing wrong, your obviously not sure what if any percentage MS takes. And it still doesn’t change the fact I can go and buy a game from multiple places outside MS. Including second hand, so the rest of my argument still stands.
    But most people don't. If you're playing Fortnite and see someone wearing a cool outfit and want to buy one, then Epic would rather the player be able to buy it right then. It's impulse buying. No gamer plan their budget around how much they are going to spend on virtual items. If the player decides to log onto to his PC/Mac, (providing the gamers has a one or play games on one) so he can buy the outfit at a discount, that impulse might disappear and he might be thinking, What the Hell? Why am I going to pay $20 real dollars for a visual outfit, that cost Epic nearly nothing to provide to me?

    Why would any gamer go elsewhere to buy a digital download? They can just download from the device they are playing games on. Without even getting out of their seat. The only reason might be because they want the physical disc and is willing to pay more for the game that way. But gamers like those are a dying breed and game developers are discouraging that as they make much more profit, even after paying the usual 30% cut, selling a digital download, than a disc that requires the cost of packaging, shipping, stocking and replacement if defective. The mobile devices, where the only way to load a game into it, is by downloading it, is the future of gaming consoles. The X-Box All Digital, has no disc drive. And gamers are not going to care if they can run down to the nearest Walmart to buy a key code at a small discount, to unlock a game they still have to download from the maker of the device anyways. Once again, it's impulse buying. The gamer might change his mind by the time he gets to Walmart. 

    Look what happened to Epic on Android. When Fortnite was banned from the Play store, people were not rushing to download the game from the Epic site and side loading it into their Android device, which is now the only way to get Fortnite into an Android device. This caused Epic to sue Google because they were scaring gamers by posting the danger of side losing an app from unknown sources. Gamers are not interested in getting their downloaded games from elsewhere. They want the convenience of getting them directly from the app store. 

    Just exactly what does a second hand digital download of a game for a mobile device look like? When was the time you saw a disc drive attached to a mobile device? Even an SD card would be way to slow to play games on. The game still has to be downloaded into the hard drive and one can do that without an SD card. Even with a disc, the game gets downloaded into the gaming device. The difference being that you must have the disc in the unit to play the game. Can you imagine mobile gamers changing out the SD card every time they want to play a game?

    You are blowing up this .... I have a choice to buy my games from other sources.... way out of proportion. Hardly anyone cares, except anti trust lawyers trying to make a fast buck by convincing people like you that somehow your gaming rights have been violated. Except for the disc, which can not be used on a mobile device, the majority of gamers buy downloads directly from their gaming device. They don't buy the disc or care if they can buy the key code at Best buy or Target at a small discount. If you got a new X-Box and want to download a dozen games on it, are you going to drive all over town to find the best prices for those downloaded games you want, just because you don't have to buy your games directly from MS. It's the same games no matter where you buy them from.  I can see someone buying a digital downloaded game from a retailer as a Bday present or on impulse. But better off just buying a game console gift card from the retailer and then buying the game from the game console. They say the best way to save on games from the MS Store, is to buy discounted gift cards. Just like how sometime you can buy iTunes gift card at 10% off. 

    The the other nail in the coffin for game disc is that MS is coming out with streaming games you have in your X-Box to Android mobile devices. But the only way to stream a game you installed from a disc is to have the disc in the X-Box. Where as all your digital downloaded game can be played from the HD and stream to your Android device at any time.    

    https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-game-streaming/console-streaming

    edited August 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 80 of 81
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,393member
    Why is nobody stating the obvious?

    You DON’T NEED a developer account to code for iOS. You need an account if you want to put your Apps in The App Store.

    Xcode isn’t going to suddenly stop working on all Epic computers and Epic isn’t going to be prevented from writing iOS software and deploying/testing it on all their own internal devices (like they now do).

    They will lose access to some tools, but Epic is making it sound like development is going to grind to a halt and anyone who uses Unreal Engine in their Apps are going to find those Apps no longer working.

    That’s not even close to being true. It’s scare mongering.
    You do, however, need a developer account to get your app notarized by Apple.  Going forward, future builds of Epic Games Launcher/Unreal Engine on the Mac — which is what every Unreal Engine developer uses to produce macOS/iOS games/apps/etc using UE — would require bypassing Gatekeeper to be launched which is not an insignificant problem. Maybe there are other factors here that make this even more problematic, I'm not really sure.

    But, I think Apple's threat goes beyond that, as in they'll no longer have access to Apple engineers in working on new versions of UE including advanced Metal optimization or other APIs needed to target the various platforms, so forth.
    watto_cobra
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