Nvidia buying ARM for record-breaking $40 billion

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 57
    Oh this isn’t a monopoly in the making at all. But God forbid Apple takes a small fee from developers for access to IT’S store to reach millions of customers more than they could ever do on their own. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 57
    As is often the case, the comments literally double the value of the article. However the diversity of opinions makes me think of the old adage, "A man with one watch knows what time it is, but a man with two watches is never sure."

    I'm also starting to worry about this statement:
    "AI is the most powerful technology force of our time and has launched a new wave of computing," said Jensen Huang, founder and CEO of NVIDIA. "In the years ahead, trillions of computers running AI will create a new internet-of-things that is thousands of times larger than today's internet-of-people. Our combination will create a company fabulously positioned for the age of AI."

    Are they really saying that their future chips sold to us will be running Nvidia's AI software even when we are using them? This opens up a can of worms. Will Nvidia let us opt out? Or will it be an opt in? Will Nvidia tell us what software they are running on our computers? Will Nvidia be able to see my computer's screen? Will I be able to see Nvidia's software running using my computer's "task manager"? Will the computations be sent across international borders? Will Nvidia be paying us for the use of our computers? Will Nvidia be tracking any personal data like unique computer IDs? Will Nvidia be giving access to my computer to law enforcement with a warrant?

    I don't think I want Nvidia or anyone else knowing what's in my house or what internet-of-things devices are in my house, let alone controlling what my processors are running. This is exactly the kind of thinking by companies like Google/Facebook that has made Apple a two trillion dollar company because some people actually value Apple's attitudes toward privacy and security.

    Personally, I don’t find that quote to be scary at all. I find it to be a bunch of babbling nonsense. Everything that has the term “AI” thrown at it today isn’t remotely apropos of the term. The only place AI “exists” is in sci-fi/techno-fantasy. The quote is just another one of those fad-filled grandiose statements that corporations make to puff up their self-importance and stock prices.
    williamlondonrazorpitcgWerksFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 23 of 57
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,490member
    Without knowing the terms of the agreement, my gut feeling is this won't get through regulatory approval for similar reasons to why Trump blocked a posible Broadcom sale that could have seen IP move to China.

    Risc-V is already making big strides and is extremely scalable.

    Trump's protectionist and system-wrecking actions have accelerated the move by more companies to start Risc-V development projects to test commercial viability in the mid term. 
    GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 24 of 57
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,238member
    avon b7 said:
    Without knowing the terms of the agreement, my gut feeling is this won't get through regulatory approval for similar reasons to why Trump blocked a posible Broadcom sale that could have seen IP move to China.

    Risc-V is already making big strides and is extremely scalable.

    Trump's protectionist and system-wrecking actions have accelerated the move by more companies to start Risc-V development projects to test commercial viability in the mid term. 
    Nvidia stated that they would maintain ARM main offices in the UK, and that is sufficient for approval.

    https://www.cnet.com/news/why-trump-blocked-qualcomm-broadcom-its-all-about-5g/

    edited September 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 57
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,490member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Without knowing the terms of the agreement, my gut feeling is this won't get through regulatory approval for similar reasons to why Trump blocked a posible Broadcom sale that could have seen IP move to China.

    Risc-V is already making big strides and is extremely scalable.

    Trump's protectionist and system-wrecking actions have accelerated the move by more companies to start Risc-V development projects to test commercial viability in the mid term. 
    Nvidia stated that they would maintain ARM main offices in the UK, and that is sufficient for approval.
    My feeling is that it will require much more than that for approval. 

    The deal will be combed over with a fine tooth comb and then there is the whole ARM China situation to be considered, too. 
    muthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 26 of 57
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,238member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Without knowing the terms of the agreement, my gut feeling is this won't get through regulatory approval for similar reasons to why Trump blocked a posible Broadcom sale that could have seen IP move to China.

    Risc-V is already making big strides and is extremely scalable.

    Trump's protectionist and system-wrecking actions have accelerated the move by more companies to start Risc-V development projects to test commercial viability in the mid term. 
    Nvidia stated that they would maintain ARM main offices in the UK, and that is sufficient for approval.
    My feeling is that it will require much more than that for approval. 

    The deal will be combed over with a fine tooth comb and then there is the whole ARM China situation to be considered, too. 
    I find it interesting, and ironic, that Risk V, originating in Berkeley, will move its headquarters to Switzerland, and continue serving bad actors, as well as good, authoritarian powers, as well as democracies, all in the name of open source, and zero licensing costs.

    What a wonderful world of surveillance, human rights violations, and smart weapons awaits us.
    watto_cobracgWerksFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 27 of 57
    davgregdavgreg Posts: 1,031member
    It will be interesting to watch this play out and the deal is not done by a long shot.

    ARM is a British company and the UK is still trying to sort out Brexit. Also, NVIDIA only promised to keep the HQ of ARM in the UK for one year- expect that to be a problem for the approval of the UK government. 

    And Apple has made no public comment to my knowledge. They might very well have a problem with the deal and may try to spike it. And I do not think Apple is ready to abandon ARM reference designs as the basis for the A series chips that run every iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch and soon many Macintoshes.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 57
    davgreg said:
    It will be interesting to watch this play out and the deal is not done by a long shot.

    ARM is a British company and the UK is still trying to sort out Brexit. Also, NVIDIA only promised to keep the HQ of ARM in the UK for one year- expect that to be a problem for the approval of the UK government. 

    And Apple has made no public comment to my knowledge. They might very well have a problem with the deal and may try to spike it. And I do not think Apple is ready to abandon ARM reference designs as the basis for the A series chips that run every iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch and soon many Macintoshes.

    The only thing having a headquarters in the UK means is jobs.   Control of the company moves to the U.S.  -- and that means Trump can dictate who they do business with.  I can't imagine ANY right thinking person going along with that.   But then Boris is another Trump shill -- should I say:  "Like Trump, a Putin shill".  So.....
  • Reply 29 of 57
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,238member
    davgreg said:
    It will be interesting to watch this play out and the deal is not done by a long shot.

    ARM is a British company and the UK is still trying to sort out Brexit. Also, NVIDIA only promised to keep the HQ of ARM in the UK for one year- expect that to be a problem for the approval of the UK government. 

    And Apple has made no public comment to my knowledge. They might very well have a problem with the deal and may try to spike it. And I do not think Apple is ready to abandon ARM reference designs as the basis for the A series chips that run every iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch and soon many Macintoshes.

    The only thing having a headquarters in the UK means is jobs.   Control of the company moves to the U.S.  -- and that means Trump can dictate who they do business with.  I can't imagine ANY right thinking person going along with that.   But then Boris is another Trump shill -- should I say:  "Like Trump, a Putin shill".  So.....
    You seem completely unaware of the possibility during the upcoming election, that there will be a different Administration in place when this sale is decided.

    Would you have the same concerns under a Biden Administration, if the Headquarters of ARM was moved to Santa Clara?
  • Reply 30 of 57
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/nvidias-40-billion-arm-bet-all-about-data-centers-edge-computing-ai/

    Has nothing to do with Apple. It WILL make services like xCloud, Stadia, Nvidia GeForce Now - and Apple Clips - run with much less latency though ...
  • Reply 31 of 57
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Without knowing the terms of the agreement, my gut feeling is this won't get through regulatory approval for similar reasons to why Trump blocked a posible Broadcom sale that could have seen IP move to China.

    Risc-V is already making big strides and is extremely scalable.

    Trump's protectionist and system-wrecking actions have accelerated the move by more companies to start Risc-V development projects to test commercial viability in the mid term. 
    Nvidia stated that they would maintain ARM main offices in the UK, and that is sufficient for approval.
    My feeling is that it will require much more than that for approval. 

    The deal will be combed over with a fine tooth comb and then there is the whole ARM China situation to be considered, too. 
    I find it interesting, and ironic, that Risk V, originating in Berkeley, will move its headquarters to Switzerland, and continue serving bad actors, as well as good, authoritarian powers, as well as democracies, all in the name of open source, and zero licensing costs.

    What a wonderful world of surveillance, human rights violations, and smart weapons awaits us.
    Imagination also loves China.  Sometimes I do questioned myself about the tech world.
    tmay
  • Reply 32 of 57
    Oh this isn’t a monopoly in the making at all.
    You are right. It isn't a monopoly in the making AT ALL. 

    You know why? Nvidia's existing ARM CPU business consists entirely of making SOCs for A) the Nvidia Shield TV set top box which may move about 500,000 units a year and B) the Nintendo Switch. That. Is. All.

    Nvidia made ARM CPUs for the Motorola Xoom Android tablet back in 2011, the Nexus 9 tablet back in 2014, the Nvidia Shield back in 2014 and the Nvidia Shield K1 in 2015. Nvidia CPUs were last used in Chromebooks in 2014 also. All have since been discontinued meaning that Nvidia is not involved in anything that ARM currently licenses

    Yes, ARM makes GPUs. Guess what? Nvidia doesn't use them. Nvidia uses essentially the same power hungry and not particularly fast GPU architecture that AMD and Intel use. The only major usage of ARM Mali GPUs really are Android phones and tablets. Apple uses their own GPU design on ARM devices and will continue to do so for Apple Silicon Macs. Nvidia isn't doing this to get their hands on Android GPUs. Instead, they want their engineers to work with Nvidia's R&D department to create a new breed of GPUs for data centers, and in the process obtain the same power+efficiency improvements that Apple wants to get by switching Mac Pro and iMac devices from Intel i9 and Xeon CPUs to 12 core Apple Silicon SOCs 2 years from now. 

    Nvidia buying ARM is the equivalent of Apple buying TikTok, Dailymotion or Twitch (or maybe buying CompUSA and converting them into Apple Store locations). Yes, it would make Apple bigger and more profitable, but it would not constitute a monopoly in any sense because Android would still have 85% market share and YouTube would still be the #1 video streaming site (and depending upon how you classify such animals Netflix would be #2) and Apple's retail operation would still be a fraction of the likes of Wal-Mart, Best Buy and even Staples. Now were Apple to try to buy FitBit, that would be a monopoly concern because it would give Apple nearly all the smartwatch market share in the west (all that would be left would be Samsung and a bunch of glorified step counters). By contrast, the only reason why Google's purchase of FitBit is being held up is concerns over FitBit data adding to Google's data monopoly. Were Google to agree to sell the current FitBit data to a third party and satisfy themselves with FitBit's hardware, software, apps and branding the purchase would get approved tomorrow because right now Wear OS has like 2% market share.

    Honestly, there is no one willing/able to pay $14 billion - let alone $40 billion - for ARM that would satisfy the critics of this deal. Everyone else would constitute a massive conflict of interest (Apple, Google, Samsung, TSMC, Microsoft), create a monopoly (Intel, AMD) or have no real use for or way of monetizing the purchase. And as mentioned earlier, as ARM does not actually manufacture or sell products but is merely an R&D/licensing outfit, it wouldn't come anywhere close to $40 billion as an IPO.
  • Reply 33 of 57
    tmay said:
    techconc said:
    flydog said:
    Nonsense.  Apple doesn’t rely on ARM for design or manufacturing. It has a perpetual license that allow it to design its own chips.
    You either didn’t read or didn’t understand my post as your comment doesn’t address what I actually said.  

    By definition, a perpetual license for the ISA would cover all future versions, and while ARM may very well have a maintenance fee structure in place with Apple to maintain that license in perpetuity, it is more likely that Apple negotiated and paid a lump sum for that perpetual license.

    Apple has deviated from the ISA at least since the A7 SOC, and again by definition, Apple would have created a superset of the ISA, which would be proprietary to Apple. I can't imagine that this would have any noticeable impact on the virtualization of Linux. though it might require some small effort.

    It is conceivable that in the future, Nvidia might attempt to increase licensing fees "unreasonably", or deprecate all external licensing, leading to a hellscape of legal jeopardy, which would ultimately lead, I suspect, to an external caretaker that would take over management of the ARM operation. That seems unlikely to happen.

    Again, by definition, Apple would have guarantees and penalties written into any contracts that they would have enjoined with ARM. That's what Apple's legal department is for.

    Not to beat a dead horse... I agree with what you've written.  My original comment on this thread what that Apple is UNLIKELY to deviate from ARM ISA standards.  If they do so, they'd keep compatibility with ARM ISA and perhaps include a superset of that ISA.  The point I was making was about retaining compatibility.  Unfortunately, the reading impaired such as flydog interpreted that as Apple being dependent upon ARM design or manufacturing (which I did not say).  The reason I wrote that was because the author of this story expects Apple to move away from the ARM ISA over time.  I don't see that happening.  Do you? 
  • Reply 34 of 57
    techconc said:
    tmay said:
    techconc said:
    flydog said:
    Nonsense.  Apple doesn’t rely on ARM for design or manufacturing. It has a perpetual license that allow it to design its own chips.
    You either didn’t read or didn’t understand my post as your comment doesn’t address what I actually said.  

    By definition, a perpetual license for the ISA would cover all future versions, and while ARM may very well have a maintenance fee structure in place with Apple to maintain that license in perpetuity, it is more likely that Apple negotiated and paid a lump sum for that perpetual license.

    Apple has deviated from the ISA at least since the A7 SOC, and again by definition, Apple would have created a superset of the ISA, which would be proprietary to Apple. I can't imagine that this would have any noticeable impact on the virtualization of Linux. though it might require some small effort.

    It is conceivable that in the future, Nvidia might attempt to increase licensing fees "unreasonably", or deprecate all external licensing, leading to a hellscape of legal jeopardy, which would ultimately lead, I suspect, to an external caretaker that would take over management of the ARM operation. That seems unlikely to happen.

    Again, by definition, Apple would have guarantees and penalties written into any contracts that they would have enjoined with ARM. That's what Apple's legal department is for.

    Not to beat a dead horse... I agree with what you've written.  My original comment on this thread what that Apple is UNLIKELY to deviate from ARM ISA standards.  If they do so, they'd keep compatibility with ARM ISA and perhaps include a superset of that ISA.  The point I was making was about retaining compatibility.  Unfortunately, the reading impaired such as flydog interpreted that as Apple being dependent upon ARM design or manufacturing (which I did not say).  The reason I wrote that was because the author of this story expects Apple to move away from the ARM ISA over time.  I don't see that happening.  Do you? 
    Apple could move away from the ARM ISA - and other IP - over time but it would take an extremely long time. And the amount of time that it would take to happen, no less than 5 years and as much as 10 - the tech world may change so much as to make it not matter much anyway. Ten years from now iPhones and iPads are likely going to be what iPods are today ... and what iPods did to the venerable Sony Walkman/Discman within a few years of its introduction.
  • Reply 35 of 57
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,238member
    techconc said:
    tmay said:
    techconc said:
    flydog said:
    Nonsense.  Apple doesn’t rely on ARM for design or manufacturing. It has a perpetual license that allow it to design its own chips.
    You either didn’t read or didn’t understand my post as your comment doesn’t address what I actually said.  

    By definition, a perpetual license for the ISA would cover all future versions, and while ARM may very well have a maintenance fee structure in place with Apple to maintain that license in perpetuity, it is more likely that Apple negotiated and paid a lump sum for that perpetual license.

    Apple has deviated from the ISA at least since the A7 SOC, and again by definition, Apple would have created a superset of the ISA, which would be proprietary to Apple. I can't imagine that this would have any noticeable impact on the virtualization of Linux. though it might require some small effort.

    It is conceivable that in the future, Nvidia might attempt to increase licensing fees "unreasonably", or deprecate all external licensing, leading to a hellscape of legal jeopardy, which would ultimately lead, I suspect, to an external caretaker that would take over management of the ARM operation. That seems unlikely to happen.

    Again, by definition, Apple would have guarantees and penalties written into any contracts that they would have enjoined with ARM. That's what Apple's legal department is for.

    Not to beat a dead horse... I agree with what you've written.  My original comment on this thread what that Apple is UNLIKELY to deviate from ARM ISA standards.  If they do so, they'd keep compatibility with ARM ISA and perhaps include a superset of that ISA.  The point I was making was about retaining compatibility.  Unfortunately, the reading impaired such as flydog interpreted that as Apple being dependent upon ARM design or manufacturing (which I did not say).  The reason I wrote that was because the author of this story expects Apple to move away from the ARM ISA over time.  I don't see that happening.  Do you? 
    Much of the basis of my posts is that Apple wants to increase resilience, and will work out viable contingency plans for those unexpected "black swan" events when possible. I expect that Apple is creating a superset pf ARM's ISA, and at the same time, is exploring ISA alternatives, including creation from scratch. I don't expect that Apple is in any hurry to abandon that ARM ISA, and I don't believe that they will have to.

    If you look back about a year, there was concern that Apple would miss incorporating 5G into this seasons iPhones. That exposed Apple's lack of resilience, and will drive Apple harder to create its own modem, all the while benefitting from Qualcomm's modems.
    edited September 2020
  • Reply 36 of 57
    qwerty52 said:

    Yes, and knowing, that Nvidia is in China’s hands, it makes it more scary
    Nvidia’s boss is a Taiwanese, kinda Chinese but not the same. In theory, Taiwan and China are still in war. Also, Nvidia is a US company, it was founded in US. They asked Samsung and TSMC to make their chips.

    know your fact. 
    tmayGG1
  • Reply 37 of 57
    DuhSesame said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Without knowing the terms of the agreement, my gut feeling is this won't get through regulatory approval for similar reasons to why Trump blocked a posible Broadcom sale that could have seen IP move to China.

    Risc-V is already making big strides and is extremely scalable.

    Trump's protectionist and system-wrecking actions have accelerated the move by more companies to start Risc-V development projects to test commercial viability in the mid term. 
    Nvidia stated that they would maintain ARM main offices in the UK, and that is sufficient for approval.
    My feeling is that it will require much more than that for approval. 

    The deal will be combed over with a fine tooth comb and then there is the whole ARM China situation to be considered, too. 
    I find it interesting, and ironic, that Risk V, originating in Berkeley, will move its headquarters to Switzerland, and continue serving bad actors, as well as good, authoritarian powers, as well as democracies, all in the name of open source, and zero licensing costs.

    What a wonderful world of surveillance, human rights violations, and smart weapons awaits us.
    Imagination also loves China.  Sometimes I do questioned myself about the tech world.
    So does Apple but it is fine when they do it, right?
  • Reply 38 of 57
    tmay said:
    davgreg said:
    It will be interesting to watch this play out and the deal is not done by a long shot.

    ARM is a British company and the UK is still trying to sort out Brexit. Also, NVIDIA only promised to keep the HQ of ARM in the UK for one year- expect that to be a problem for the approval of the UK government. 

    And Apple has made no public comment to my knowledge. They might very well have a problem with the deal and may try to spike it. And I do not think Apple is ready to abandon ARM reference designs as the basis for the A series chips that run every iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch and soon many Macintoshes.

    The only thing having a headquarters in the UK means is jobs.   Control of the company moves to the U.S.  -- and that means Trump can dictate who they do business with.  I can't imagine ANY right thinking person going along with that.   But then Boris is another Trump shill -- should I say:  "Like Trump, a Putin shill".  So.....
    You seem completely unaware of the possibility during the upcoming election, that there will be a different Administration in place when this sale is decided.

    Would you have the same concerns under a Biden Administration, if the Headquarters of ARM was moved to Santa Clara?

    No, I wouldn't -- because Biden would not be foolish enough to do the stuff that Trump is doing -- like dictating who companies can do business with and who they can't -- and switch back and forth as the wind changes.

    But, as I said, where the headquarters are located means nothing except jobs -- as an American company Trump will take full control of where and how they do business just as we have seen him do dozens of times over the past couple years.

    As I posted previously from the BBC:
    Moreover, the two co-founders [of ARM] also claimed that once ARM was owned by an American firm, Washington could try to block Chinese companies from using its knowhow as part of a wider trade clash between the countries.

    "If ARM becomes a US subsidiary of a US company, it falls under the Cfius [Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States] regulations," Mr Hauser told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

    "[That] means that if hundreds of UK companies that incorporate ARM's [technology] in their products, want to sell it, and export it to anywhere in the world including China - which is a major market - the decision on whether they will be allowed to export it will be made in the White House and not in Downing Street."


    The fact is:  no American president has ever done anything like that before Trump and, once Trump is gone, we should expect to return to normality -- at least with Biden anyway.
    edited September 2020
  • Reply 39 of 57
    davgreg said:
    It will be interesting to watch this play out and the deal is not done by a long shot.

    ARM is a British company and the UK is still trying to sort out Brexit. Also, NVIDIA only promised to keep the HQ of ARM in the UK for one year- expect that to be a problem for the approval of the UK government. 

    And Apple has made no public comment to my knowledge. They might very well have a problem with the deal and may try to spike it. And I do not think Apple is ready to abandon ARM reference designs as the basis for the A series chips that run every iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch and soon many Macintoshes.
    One small point: Apple doesn’t use ARM reference designs. 

    Apple Silicon is designed from the ground up by Apple. It just happens to be compatible with the ARM instruction set. 
    GG1
  • Reply 40 of 57

    tmay said:
    techconc said:
    tmay said:
    techconc said:
    flydog said:
    Nonsense.  Apple doesn’t rely on ARM for design or manufacturing. It has a perpetual license that allow it to design its own chips.
    You either didn’t read or didn’t understand my post as your comment doesn’t address what I actually said.  

    By definition, a perpetual license for the ISA would cover all future versions, and while ARM may very well have a maintenance fee structure in place with Apple to maintain that license in perpetuity, it is more likely that Apple negotiated and paid a lump sum for that perpetual license.

    Apple has deviated from the ISA at least since the A7 SOC, and again by definition, Apple would have created a superset of the ISA, which would be proprietary to Apple. I can't imagine that this would have any noticeable impact on the virtualization of Linux. though it might require some small effort.

    It is conceivable that in the future, Nvidia might attempt to increase licensing fees "unreasonably", or deprecate all external licensing, leading to a hellscape of legal jeopardy, which would ultimately lead, I suspect, to an external caretaker that would take over management of the ARM operation. That seems unlikely to happen.

    Again, by definition, Apple would have guarantees and penalties written into any contracts that they would have enjoined with ARM. That's what Apple's legal department is for.

    Not to beat a dead horse... I agree with what you've written.  My original comment on this thread what that Apple is UNLIKELY to deviate from ARM ISA standards.  If they do so, they'd keep compatibility with ARM ISA and perhaps include a superset of that ISA.  The point I was making was about retaining compatibility.  Unfortunately, the reading impaired such as flydog interpreted that as Apple being dependent upon ARM design or manufacturing (which I did not say).  The reason I wrote that was because the author of this story expects Apple to move away from the ARM ISA over time.  I don't see that happening.  Do you? 
    Much of the basis of my posts is that Apple wants to increase resilience, and will work out viable contingency plans for those unexpected "black swan" events when possible. I expect that Apple is creating a superset pf ARM's ISA, and at the same time, is exploring ISA alternatives, including creation from scratch. I don't expect that Apple is in any hurry to abandon that ARM ISA, and I don't believe that they will have to.


    I guess this depends on whether or not Apple can eke some advantage by going with their own instruction set. Aside from any extensions they may have already made, I wonder what else they could do. 
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