Windows on Apple Silicon is up to Microsoft, says Craig Federighi

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  • Reply 21 of 109
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,966member
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.
    Office and teams for Mac iOS working fast and wonderfully on my MacBook M1 Air
    What are the load times like? That’s a big annoyance for me - word and excel take about 15-20 seconds to load on my 2016 MBP
    rezwitshippowatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 109
    sflocal said:
    I suspect Microsoft is going to introduce a more baked version of Windows for ARM.  The writing is on the wall.  Chips like the M1 and soon, other competitors will leave the x86 chips behind.  

    I really believe that Apple started a new level of technology that doesn’t include Intel or AMD and others will follow.
    Well AMD already started to work on an ARM chip in 2016 (the K12 for wich Jim Keller was involved, the same guy who helped with the A4/A5 ) and lately there's this :
    https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-could-join-ARM-and-Intel-with-its-own-big-LITTLE-esque-hybrid-CPU-design.485589.0.htm:smile: 

    so Intel is the only one who doesn't seems to have a plan 
    edited November 2020 commoner9hippoAlex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 109
    All of this can be put on the shoulders of Intel. They are the ones for the past 30 years have not worked on what’s next after x86. 

    I remember in the 90s when Microsoft did port Windows NT to run on PPC, but nobody did anything with it. Motorola and IBM had no interest in trying to compete with Intel.



    rezwitshippodysamoriawatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 109
    twokatmewtwokatmew Posts: 48unconfirmed, member
    seanj said:
    Old timer that I am, I remember the days before the WinTel duopoly dominated the computer industry. We had machines running 68000, ARM, SPARC, Alpha, etc, and a consequence we had year on year real innovation and advances; the completion that the free market promotes. 
    Whereas we’ve seen stagnation with Intel’s CISC x86 architecture for over a decade, a fact that Apple recognised. The irony of course is that things have come full circle as Apple was one of the original investors in ARM back in the late 1980’s.
    Hopefully exciting days ahead!
    Old timer here! I agree and hope for exciting days ahead too. 
    commoner9hippowatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 109
    It would be so easy now for Apple to build an iPad running macOS on the M1 chip.  Everything is already in place.  It would also be just as easy for Apple to build a touch-screen laptop.  Apple has so many options, but they're going to milk the profits for themselves.  Apple could likely easily undercut all the cheap X86 laptops with a low-, low-end MacBook Lite or something similar and it would be quite powerful.  I'll bet those M1 chips are relatively cheap to fabricate although I don't know what the yield numbers are.  Well, further down the line after millions of M1 chips have been made, I'm sure the economies of scale would kick in.

    I'm so looking forward to an M1 MacBook with a dedicated/discrete Apple Silicon GPU.  Now that would be a beast.  Hat's off to Apple for disrupting the X86 platform.  I know Apple isn't going to get much credit for anything special but it should pay off very well for Apple.
    commoner9hippowatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 109
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Under Nadella, MS stopped being a Windows company so I don't think they care.

    Microsoft is doing just fine as a cloud company.  I wonder if they're even making much money from Windows as there must be a huge amount of pirated copies by now.
    hipporazorpitwatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 109
    Apple has truly shown, ALL legacy chip makers, how vastly huge the rift is between Apple and them in Chip Design. It's embarrassing quite frankly for all legacy Chip Makers. Apple has a vertical business model. The legac chip makers, all dream of landing that Apple hardware and software deal. Legacy chip makers are limited to making chips and entirely depend, or are dependent on hardware makers, with a sustainable eco system, like Apple. Now Apple has invaded their territory, so out right disruptively. I will enjoy seeing the slow and steady migration from windows 10 to Apple Big Sur. Slowly Govt/Schools/Corporations/ And any large institution will see the value of leaving a bulkier slower, more expensive, slower machine, for a space efficient, snappier, FASTER, extremely low wattage usage Apple Mini PC. It is going to happen. All legacy software, code smiths will slowly lean towards a single OS with a single chip architecture, for so many hardware iterations, from Mobile phone to PC. Gaming, and all manner of wonderful software will start being only for Apple, due to it's superior hardware superiority, speed and power efficiency. I even see Apple selling server farm blades and incurring into AMD and INTEL large server farm business with these chips. 
    rezwitshippowatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 109
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,414member
    wood1208 said:
    Not going to happen but if Microsoft ports modified ARM Windows to run natively on M1 MACs like Windows on x86.Now a days MacOS or Windows pretty much free or people buy M1 version of Windows license from Microsoft. Customers buy MACS and load which ever OS they need for certain applications to run and switch around.
    Quick reminder: Mac is short for "Macintosh." It's not an acronym, so it should not be all caps.

    On to your point: there's still not only good financial reasons for Microsoft to do what they are presently doing (porting key software to the M1) but also engineering reasons. Apple is, essentially, teaching Microsoft how to directly create software using the ARM instruction set that runs Windows (and Win apps) at full speed, which in turn will vastly improve the Surface line (their second best-selling hardware and likely their most profitable computer hardware). ARM chips are fast, but the Surface has been hobbled by emulation and underfunded development of truly native software written directly for ARM chips.

    Further, I don't see how MS prevents the emulator companies from developing their own virtual environments to run Windows within Big Sur on M1. The Crossover people have literally already done this (though it's early days), and VMWare and Parallels have both committed to it. What's more, even in an emulation environment typical Windows apps are likely to run at least a bit faster on an M1 Mac than they do on all but premium native Intel hardware -- that's how much performance headroom the M1 has, and remember its not even the yet-to-be-announced pro-level M-class chip!

    I think it would be wonderful if Microsoft, Apple, and the emulation companies work together once again to make the Windows experience on the Mac usually better than it is on actual Intel hardware -- there's no reason for MS to be married to Intel for life, and frankly Intel's decade-long stumble has really been holding back every company that relies on Intel chips. This is golden opportunity not just for TSMC and AMD, but for new chipmakers to emerge now that it has been shown that huge performance increases and efficiencies are still possible -- once you ditch Intel!
    rezwitshippotmay
  • Reply 29 of 109
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,681member
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    I don't think Microsoft cares. They aren't making money from hardware and they aren't making money from Windows anymore. And I don't think it would take much to get WoA to run on Apple M-series. It'll be more of a kick in the teeth to Qualcomm and ARM.



    commoner9hippomuthuk_vanalingamrazorpitwatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 109
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,681member
    "When we said we would support Intel systems for years to come, that was talking about the operating system." Apple had commented that future Intel hardware was coming, but Joswiak said "We still had Intel systems that were in the pipeline" when it was said, "That very next month, we introduced an Intel-based iMac."

    Mark my words: Apple won’t refresh any existing Intel machine. They set a precedence with the M1 and cannibalized their existing Intel machines, fully knowing this. Everyone’s waiting for the transition to continue and keeping money in their pockets.

    My not so crazy bet is The MacBook Pro 16” and iMac are next up for an “M1X”, both offering faster GPU, 8/16/32 GB memory and more ports. Probably early Q2 2021? And the last one - the most niche product, a much smaller Mac Pro with the same SoC principle, M1XPro with high-end GPU/CPU performance. No eGPU support still - I don’t think that fits with their vision. With probably a couple of SSD slots (no room for harddrives anymore) and up to 64 GB. Lotsa ports. 


    I think the M1X is done and ready to go. At the moment, Apple is trying to sell off supply of Intel components. Should "pro" users start buying up these M1 entry-level models instead and sales of the higher-end models fall off a cliff, they'll want to get M1X systems out ASAP...

    1. low-end 16" Pro (keep highest end Intel)
    2. 21.5" iMac (M1 and M1X)
    3. high-end 13" Pro and mini (discontinue Intel models)

    And I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have a few M1 variants waiting already.
    hippoCheeseFreezewatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 109
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    RIP Windows. You made good Mac knockoffs and fooled morons into thinking your copycat OS was better than the original.

    This is Apple's opportunity to put the nail in the coffin, Windows Phone style.

    dyonoctis said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    I see that you are still living in the early 2000. Satya Nadella isn't out to destroy Apple contrary to what you seem to believe. It's time to forget that microsoft "stole" the GUI, and move on. 


    Nah, that's the same bait iKnockoff morons push so we can accept "Android" as some invention. You do that and these idiots get cocky and start saying Apple makes knockoff Samsung Galaxies. There's an idiot in this forum who made himself believe that Apple makes knockoffs of the damn knockoff.

    There was also another morons I met who insists Samsung invented the iPhone.

    Don't take the bait guys. Hold these knockoff companies to full scrutiny and never forget history.

    I'm loving the taste of tears from all the iKnockoff morons crying about another invention Apple hit outta the ballpark!
    "This cannot be!! Apple is lying!!"
    LOL!!!!
    rezwitshippohydrogen
  • Reply 32 of 109
    netroxnetrox Posts: 1,464member
    dewme said:

    ... and the first "working version" of Windows NT, which is present in Windows 10's DNA, ran on the Intel i860 - which is a RISC chip. Talk about full circles...
    I do not recall NT on i860 but I remember using NT on PowerPC. 

    Your arguments are just not winning. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 109
    All of this can be put on the shoulders of Intel. They are the ones for the past 30 years have not worked on what’s next after x86. 

    I remember in the 90s when Microsoft did port Windows NT to run on PPC, but nobody did anything with it. Motorola and IBM had no interest in trying to compete with Intel.



    So true, but I'll never forget one thing.  As the FANS start to ramp up, eventually the chip must EXIT the building.  I remember back in the G4/G5 Dual/Quad days (2005), even with a G5 Quad, and liquid cooling the fans came on!

    I was like wtf, man, still NOISE!!  And the G4 FW? haha was the old "wind tunnel."

    And Intel had no clue, THE OSes and code are wanting to do more and more, and people PUSH their CHIPs, they are tired of waiting.  But I freakin' stop sometimes when my fans come on and just like CHILL I am like nah, no FANS.

    And these Intel(s) Chips, have been using fans even still today here and there, it's ridiculous.  And thing is Intel yes has been ahead for like 2-3 years for 20+ years, and not thought they would fall, bah

    The future of computers MARK "MY WORDS", like the good ole days with my first MODEM, I asked the guy from the store, one question:

    "How long will this modem work for?" reply:  "Forever kid, you see computers have what you call, 'NO MOVING PARTS'" -1985

    So take a last look at the past, because ~FANS, where we're going we don't need (flippin') FANS~

    Computers ESSENTIALLY are to be built strictily with absolutely NO MOVING PARTS!!

    Can't wait!

    - Late
    edited November 2020 hippokudu
  • Reply 34 of 109

    Beats said:
    RIP Windows. You made good Mac knockoffs and fooled morons into thinking your copycat OS was better than the original.

    This is Apple's opportunity to put the nail in the coffin, Windows Phone style.
    .........
    There was also another morons I met who insists Samsung invented the iPhone.

    Don't take the bait guys. Hold these knockoff companies to full scrutiny and never forget history.

    I'm loving the taste of tears from all the iKnockoff morons crying about another invention Apple hit outta the ballpark!
    "This cannot be!! Apple is lying!!"
    LOL!!!!
    So true, the thing that PISSED me off so bad, was that back when macOS had "TRULY" defeated Windows, I mean way over, what happened?  We got NUTHIN'. We got NUTHIN'.  We had our macOS but these guys trudged thru, and scraped around till Windows 10.

    And now it's like this, "Window 10 isn't that bad, it's actually pretty good."  Crowd.

    I honestly want this "nail in the coffin" to freakin happen Windows Phones style.

    I am sick of these guys who love their souped up Segas or Nintendos!! (i.e. PCs with a freakin' graphic card 'Array')

    Gonna bee sooo good...
    hippo
  • Reply 35 of 109
    chasm said:
    <snip>
    I think it would be wonderful if Microsoft, Apple, and the emulation companies work together once again to make the Windows experience on the Mac usually better than it is on actual Intel hardware -- there's no reason for MS to be married to Intel for life, and frankly Intel's decade-long stumble has really been holding back every company that relies on Intel chips. This is golden opportunity not just for TSMC and AMD, but for new chipmakers to emerge now that it has been shown that huge performance increases and efficiencies are still possible -- once you ditch Intel!
    The big problem with "ditch[ing] Intel" is that it requires moving away from the modular architecture that is currently dominating mindshare and manufacturing. Apple has achieved amazing performance benefits because they have amalgamated so many different components onto a single chip. Calling it "System on a Chip" has never been more apt.

    So it's not just CPU makers that will need to change, it's motherboard makers as well. There are massive sunk costs throughout the industry that will need to be abandoned before the new approach can take hold, and my guess is that's going to take more than a decade even AFTER people accept the need to move on.

    And we're going to see a huge discussion erupt over whether or not Apple's new architectural approach actually IS better. Google has shown that bare-bones, dirt-cheap systems are IN AGGREGATE the better solution for large-scale deployment - it's cheaper to account for failure during deployment than it is to try and prevent failure by building higher-quality systems. That line of thinking is going to be difficult to dislodge, but if anyone has the scale to prove it one way or another, it's Apple.
    tmay
  • Reply 36 of 109
    It would be so easy now for Apple to build an iPad running macOS on the M1 chip.

    — released your “fantasy” iPad years ago. It’s called an iPad Pro! MacOS Big Sur on iPad (hardware) would be a PR- and Support-nightmare: what is what?—am I on iPadOS or iPad-hardware or  M1-based hardware running iPadOS...

      Everything is already in place.  It would also be just as easy for Apple to build a touch-screen laptop.  Apple has so many options, but they're going to milk the profits for themselves.  Apple could likely easily undercut all the cheap X86 laptops with a low-, low-end MacBook Lite or something similar and it would be quite powerful.  I'll bet those M1 chips are relatively cheap to fabricate although I don't know what the yield numbers are.  Well, further down the line after millions of M1 chips have been made, I'm sure the economies of scale would kick in.

    I'm so looking forward to an M1 MacBook with a dedicated/discrete Apple Silicon GPU.

      Now that would be a beast.  Hat's off to Apple for disrupting the X86 platform.  I know Apple isn't going to get much credit for anything special but it should pay off very well for Apple.
    — released your “fantasy” iPad years ago. It’s called an iPad Pro!
    MacOS Big Sur on iPad (hardware) would be a PR- and Support-nightmare: what is what?—am I on iPadOS or iPad-hardware or  M1-based hardware running iPadOS...

    — could have released such a beast, but chose not to! Why?—google “ M1 performance benchmark”! In contrast to the  M1-strategy with System-On-Chip, x86-systems are very much Beasts and the undisputed Kings of Power—Power consumption—that is!
    tmay
  • Reply 37 of 109
    chasm said:
    wood1208 said:
    Not going to happen but if Microsoft ports modified ARM Windows to run natively on M1 MACs like Windows on x86.Now a days MacOS or Windows pretty much free or people buy M1 version of Windows license from Microsoft. Customers buy MACS and load which ever OS they need for certain applications to run and switch around.
    Quick reminder: Mac is short for "Macintosh." It's not an acronym, so it should not be all caps.
    Actually, the word "MAC" could indeed be an acronym and stand for "Mobile Arm Computer." Ie, M.A.C. /bow
    edited November 2020
  • Reply 38 of 109
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,534member
    The Mac vs Windows battle was over long ago. Apple’s rehash of the “I’m a Mac” advertising campaign ad done after the M1 introduction was done solely for humor, nostalgia, and to remind Mac users of how far Apple has come from those earlier times. That was the “Gunsmoke” era and now we’re in “The Mandalorian” era.

    It works both ways too. If you ask the CEO of Microsoft who his biggest competitor is I’d bet the answer would be either Amazon or Google. Apple certainly stymied Microsoft’s smartphone fantasies, but Microsoft has mostly moved on other than a few hobby projects with <gasp!> Android. That was last generation’s battle, in the past, and Microsoft has moved on and refocused. The Surface products are used as a poke in the eye to the Windows PC industry, to remind Microsoft’s licensees that they really don’t have to build crappy junk to sell Windows PCs. But Surface PCs and tablets aren’t putting a major dent in either the decent PC vendors like Dell and HP bottom lines or the bottom lines of the bottom feeders who are still selling plenty of low end stuff to keep Microsoft’s OS licensing cash cow lactating. 

    Corporate America is still lapping up plenty of Microsoft products and services in areas that Apple doesn’t really go after in a big way, largely driven by Office’s stranglehold on productivity products like Word, Excel, and PowerPoint but also a plethora of back office tools and infrastructure, and now cloud. This is Microsoft’s bread and butter and Apple isn’t even a faint glow on the competitive horizon. Nobody in this major segment of Microsoft’s business even knows about M1, other than a few who recognize it as being the Main Battle Tank for the U.S. Army.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 39 of 109
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,449member
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    IMO, MS shouldn't be ashamed of what they have done with the Surface line, specially when you consider they have been in the market for only 8 years, compared to +40 for Apple.  I suppose thing they have done some things right, considering Apple have copied some of their ideas.  I think the one who should be ashamed is Intel, specially when you see how slow they have improved in recent years.  
  • Reply 40 of 109
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,449member
    Beats said:
    RIP Windows. You made good Mac knockoffs and fooled morons into thinking your copycat OS was better than the original.

    This is Apple's opportunity to put the nail in the coffin, Windows Phone style.

    dyonoctis said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    I see that you are still living in the early 2000. Satya Nadella isn't out to destroy Apple contrary to what you seem to believe. It's time to forget that microsoft "stole" the GUI, and move on. 


    Nah, that's the same bait iKnockoff morons push so we can accept "Android" as some invention. You do that and these idiots get cocky and start saying Apple makes knockoff Samsung Galaxies. There's an idiot in this forum who made himself believe that Apple makes knockoffs of the damn knockoff.

    There was also another morons I met who insists Samsung invented the iPhone.

    Don't take the bait guys. Hold these knockoff companies to full scrutiny and never forget history.

    I'm loving the taste of tears from all the iKnockoff morons crying about another invention Apple hit outta the ballpark!
    "This cannot be!! Apple is lying!!"
    LOL!!!!
    Following your line, can we said that MacOS is a copycat / knockoff, since they copied from Xerox, right?  Or what about the Apple and the iPad Pro copying the Surface Pro with the Pencil, multitasking in touch mode, FaceID and a keyboard + trackpad, features available 5 years ago in the Surface Pro 4?  Are you saying that the iPad Pro is a Surface Pro knockoff?  If Windows had die, as it looks you want to, maybe we wouldn't seen the improvements we are seeing today with the iPad and macOS.  Maybe it's a good thing to have Windows alive, pushing Apple to improve macOS / iPadOS. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
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