Windows on Apple Silicon is up to Microsoft, says Craig Federighi

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 109
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Because after monkey boy left the helm at Microsoft, it became a much more services focused company. And it would be in their best interest to offer “Windows as a Service” to the broadest user base possible.

    But that may be pointless, except for very few use cases. Most Mac users never bothered with Boot Camp or virtualization software. macOS is THE reason I bought a Mac!
    steven n.
  • Reply 42 of 109
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    lkrupp said:
    wood1208 said:

    Customers buy MACS and load which ever OS they need for certain applications to run and switch around.

    Blathering nonsense. Utter baloney. Bull excrement. The vast, vast majority, almost the totality of customers buy Macs to run macOS, period, end of story. It only seems your way because of tech blogs and the posers that pontificate on them. 

    If the ASi Macs won’t run Windows or Linux it won’t affect sales one scintilla. And after the transition there will be no such thing as a Hackintosh either.
    Chill out, dude.

    I had been planning to buy one computer, a  Mac Pro, to be both a Mac AND a moderate gaming PC running Windows. This had been my plan for years, but Apple kept not selling a good Mac Pro at a sane price WITH a Retina display at a sane price (had they sold a Retina display with the 2013 Mac Pro, I’d own one).

    Since Apple have dropped Intel, I now have to buy a new Mac (to get back to modern software support) AND a new PC (for modern gaming).

    ONE computer is what I wanted; not TWO.

    So yeah, there are people out here who want to run Windows on a Mac. WINE doesn’t do everything for those of us who need to run Windows software on our Macs.
  • Reply 43 of 109
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Under Nadella, MS stopped being a Windows company so I don't think they care.

    Microsoft is doing just fine as a cloud company.  I wonder if they're even making much money from Windows as there must be a huge amount of pirated copies by now.
    They’re not pirated. They’re running inactivated because Microsoft apparently has decided users are more important than buyers. They could enforce activation requirements but they’re currently not. It’s cosmetic at this point, and they seem fine with that.
  • Reply 44 of 109
    ajmasajmas Posts: 601member
    Microsoft already does the “Surface Pro X”, which is an ARM based device running Windows. It also runs on the Raspberry Pi, but that seems to be more of a Windows CE variant?

    At the same time making Windows work on M1 based computers likely won’t be enough, because people are generally using Windows to run stuff that is not available on macOS. If the application doesn’t work on Windows ARM, then that will be a deal breaker. This makes me wonder whether Apple would be willing to licence Rosetta 2 to Microsoft, for use with Windows?
    edited November 2020 dysamoria
  • Reply 45 of 109
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member

    Beats said:
    RIP Windows. You made good Mac knockoffs and fooled morons into thinking your copycat OS was better than the original.

    This is Apple's opportunity to put the nail in the coffin, Windows Phone style.

    dyonoctis said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    I see that you are still living in the early 2000. Satya Nadella isn't out to destroy Apple contrary to what you seem to believe. It's time to forget that microsoft "stole" the GUI, and move on. 


    Nah, that's the same bait iKnockoff morons push so we can accept "Android" as some invention. You do that and these idiots get cocky and start saying Apple makes knockoff Samsung Galaxies. There's an idiot in this forum who made himself believe that Apple makes knockoffs of the damn knockoff.

    There was also another morons I met who insists Samsung invented the iPhone.

    Don't take the bait guys. Hold these knockoff companies to full scrutiny and never forget history.

    I'm loving the taste of tears from all the iKnockoff morons crying about another invention Apple hit outta the ballpark!
    "This cannot be!! Apple is lying!!"
    LOL!!!!
    What a ridiculous and cartoonish post. Were you aiming for “caricature of Mac fanatic” with that post?

    Unless Apple change direction dramatically on high-end gaming (ie: no machines supporting the performance needed, at PC-competitive pricing), and unless the cult of IT (in corporate & government institutions) magically decides offices shouldn’t be WinTel anymore, Windows isn’t going anywhere.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 46 of 109
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 47 of 109
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    MplsP said:
    n2macs said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Microsoft sells more software than hardware. They would benefit if Mac users could use the macOS and a non virtual version of Windows. This would also be great for Apple.
    Agreed - having Windows on an Apple machine only benefits Microsoft as well as Apple and all those Mac users who need to run Windows software or prefer Windows to MacOS.
    Finished that for you....

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 48 of 109
    MplsP said:
    n2macs said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Microsoft sells more software than hardware. They would benefit if Mac users could use the macOS and a non virtual version of Windows. This would also be great for Apple.
    Agreed - having Windows on an Apple machine only benefits Microsoft. The question is whether they are going to expend the resources to do so. On the surface, it doesn't make sense to spend the resources for a nominal number of machines but having a true ARM version of Windows would like be beneficial in other circumstances as well, especially given Intel's decline from dominance in the processor market.

    I do not agree with this line of thinking.  There certainly are people out there who must use Windows (for whatever reason) but prefer a Macintosh.  If they are unable to run Windows on a Mac, these individuals would be forced to purchase a PC...  and perhaps doing a Hackintosh.  This situation would result in a lost hardware sale for Apple so having Windows able to run on Macintosh hardware benefits both Microsoft & Apple.  What the numbers are is anybodies guess...  though probably favoring Microsoft (in a big way).

    Though I cannot see this (EVER) happening...  Imagine if Apple and Microsoft entered into an agreement where Microsoft could purchase and use M-series chips (perhaps a generation old) to use in their Surface devices while agreeing to develop a native M-series version of Windows.
    muthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 49 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,439member
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's? MS has had years to figure out how to transition to ARM, and they have essentially failed. 

    The problem is that there is no incentive for developers to leave legacy x86. FFS, there is still a shit ton of 32bit apps that haven't been transitioned to 64 Bit. Legacy support has always underpinned Windows, but now, it is strangling it.

    Let third parties figure out how to run Windows on M series. Apple should continue to distance itself from x86, and as fast as possible.

    M series is absolutely the future, and Windows developers have huge incentives to deliver apps for M series, primarily, not being left behind.
    edited November 2020
  • Reply 50 of 109
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    What are the obstacles for Microsoft?  I thought Apple's chips fully support the ARM instruction set, which Microsoft must already use in their Windows ARM edition, so is it just the GPU and the unified memory that Windows needs to have drivers or whatever to support?

    if the GPU is engineered for Metal does that mean Microsoft will need to rewrite Windows with Metal in mind?
    edited November 2020
  • Reply 51 of 109
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    MplsPmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 52 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,439member
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.
    Rayz2016spock1234sailorpaul
  • Reply 53 of 109
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.
    So you are saying Apple should have abandoned the x86 architecture 4 years after switching to it?

    I am not sure what you mean when you say "operating system"...  OS X?  Windows?  With rare exception, most "modern" operating systems are not CPU dependent (best exception I can think of is MPE/iX - not really modern though and even that can run in emulation).  Are you referring to the 32 bit vs the 64 bit ISA?

    You are correct in that we don't "know" the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows...  nobody (to my knowledge) can foretell the future.  That said, if you need (or want) to run Windows, it would be wise to wait for that ability to be available before purchasing a new M-series anything rather than hoping and praying that it one day will.
    GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 54 of 109
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.

    "First of all" Apple is doing nothing to enable Windows to run on Macs.   As I said, they washed their hands of it and dumped it all on Microsoft.
    And my friend's issue is very much Apple's problem because they lost her as a customer because of their own poor decisions.  

    If the Mac line wants to continue to exist in the market place it has to attract customers -- not push them away.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    Plus, Macs will increasingly be facing competition from iPads with external keyboards and trackpads -- they are essentially 2 in 1's which the Macs cannot match.

    Right now the only advantage of a silicon Mac is speed.   But, as many have complained about 5G -- who needs that increased speed?   Not my friend.   But she is not willing to do without Windows.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 55 of 109
    chasm said:


    Further, I don't see how MS prevents the emulator companies from developing their own virtual environments to run Windows within Big Sur on M1. The Crossover people have literally already done this (though it's early days), and VMWare and Parallels have both committed to it. What's more, even in an emulation environment typical Windows apps are likely to run at least a bit faster on an M1 Mac than they do on all but premium native Intel hardware -- that's how much performance headroom the M1 has, and remember its not even the yet-to-be-announced pro-level M-class chip!

    I think it would be wonderful if Microsoft, Apple, and the emulation companies work together once again to make the Windows experience on the Mac usually better than it is on actual Intel hardware -- there's no reason for MS to be married to Intel for life, and frankly Intel's decade-long stumble has really been holding back every company that relies on Intel chips. This is golden opportunity not just for TSMC and AMD, but for new chipmakers to emerge now that it has been shown that huge performance increases and efficiencies are still possible -- once you ditch Intel!
    ARM has been around for decades, in fact, the processor architecture started in 1983 (!). The ARM stands for Acorn Risc Machine and Acorn computers started in 1983 with the development of their own CPU with the instruction set based on RISC. Acorn computers had in the 80ish several computers on the market, and the Acorn Archimate in 1987 was the first one who used the self-developed CPU (the first ARM CPUs). Around 1990 Apple and Acorn started further developing this CPU. End of 1990 ARM ltd was founded, with Apple and Acorn both equal shareholders. So Apple is already over 30 years directly involved in ARM. 

    Yes, ARM is dominant in the mobile space. Because Apple created 30 years later the M1 doesn't mean other CPU architectures are doomed. Every architecture has it plusses and minuses. The M1 is far from perfect - yes it is perfect for the 'uses cases' for the average user. The fact that Apple doesn't sell the M1 to the market, to other manufacturers like HP, Dell, etc means that those manufacturers continue using what is available to them, either ARM, Intel, AMD, or other CPU's on the market. Just what fits the purpose. Yes, I believe the M1 is a wake-up call for Intel, but they come back. In fact, Intel is about to source manufacturing 7nm CPUs to TSMC. 

    the M1 not neccesairly beat AMD x64 CPU's in performance as the multicore performance still behind the AMD Ryzen 4800/5000 series. AMD is well-positioned to move to 5nm sooner than later and has even greater experience in CPU design than Apple (who frankly just has a relatively small team that focuses just on one CPU design). Also, the M1 is not necessarily faster than the Intel 11th series on 10nm. The decision to integrate everything into one soc, with unified memory, brings limitations that limit some use cases such as for gamers. We will see where Intel and AMD stand in the future against Apple. Apple has always been good in its software in combination with their hardware. This is not different from the M1 and MacOS on ARM. This alone, and the fact that they truly amazing job with the M1, makes that many users would be satisfied and that it met their use cases. 

    To end with some notes. Already in the 80ish, the graphical interface came part of the CPU, even the memory.  30-40 years later we come back to that same principle. 
    ravnorodommuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 56 of 109
    Xavalon said:
    chasm said:


    Further, I don't see how MS prevents the emulator companies from developing their own virtual environments to run Windows within Big Sur on M1. The Crossover people have literally already done this (though it's early days), and VMWare and Parallels have both committed to it. What's more, even in an emulation environment typical Windows apps are likely to run at least a bit faster on an M1 Mac than they do on all but premium native Intel hardware -- that's how much performance headroom the M1 has, and remember its not even the yet-to-be-announced pro-level M-class chip!

    I think it would be wonderful if Microsoft, Apple, and the emulation companies work together once again to make the Windows experience on the Mac usually better than it is on actual Intel hardware -- there's no reason for MS to be married to Intel for life, and frankly Intel's decade-long stumble has really been holding back every company that relies on Intel chips. This is golden opportunity not just for TSMC and AMD, but for new chipmakers to emerge now that it has been shown that huge performance increases and efficiencies are still possible -- once you ditch Intel!
    ARM has been around for decades, in fact, the processor architecture started in 1983 (!). The ARM stands for Acorn Risc Machine and Acorn computers started in 1983 with the development of their own CPU with the instruction set based on RISC. Acorn computers had in the 80ish several computers on the market, and the Acorn Archimate in 1987 was the first one who used the self-developed CPU (the first ARM CPUs). Around 1990 Apple and Acorn started further developing this CPU. End of 1990 ARM ltd was founded, with Apple and Acorn both equal shareholders. So Apple is already over 30 years directly involved in ARM. 

    Yes, ARM is dominant in the mobile space. Because Apple created 30 years later the M1 doesn't mean other CPU architectures are doomed. Every architecture has it plusses and minuses. The M1 is far from perfect - yes it is perfect for the 'uses cases' for the average user. The fact that Apple doesn't sell the M1 to the market, to other manufacturers like HP, Dell, etc means that those manufacturers continue using what is available to them, either ARM, Intel, AMD, or other CPU's on the market. Just what fits the purpose. Yes, I believe the M1 is a wake-up call for Intel, but they come back. In fact, Intel is about to source manufacturing 7nm CPUs to TSMC. 

    the M1 not neccesairly beat AMD x64 CPU's in performance as the multicore performance still behind the AMD Ryzen 4800/5000 series. AMD is well-positioned to move to 5nm sooner than later and has even greater experience in CPU design than Apple (who frankly just has a relatively small team that focuses just on one CPU design). Also, the M1 is not necessarily faster than the Intel 11th series on 10nm. The decision to integrate everything into one soc, with unified memory, brings limitations that limit some use cases such as for gamers. We will see where Intel and AMD stand in the future against Apple. Apple has always been good in its software in combination with their hardware. This is not different from the M1 and MacOS on ARM. This alone, and the fact that they truly amazing job with the M1, makes that many users would be satisfied and that it met their use cases. 

    To end with some notes. Already in the 80ish, the graphical interface came part of the CPU, even the memory.  30-40 years later we come back to that same principle. 
    It's never too late to bring back the Hobbit!  :-)
  • Reply 57 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,439member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.

    "First of all" Apple is doing nothing to enable Windows to run on Macs.   As I said, they washed their hands of it and dumped it all on Microsoft.
    And my friend's issue is very much Apple's problem because they lost her as a customer because of their own poor decisions.  

    If the Mac line wants to continue to exist in the market place it has to attract customers -- not push them away.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    Plus, Macs will increasingly be facing competition from iPads with external keyboards and trackpads -- they are essentially 2 in 1's which the Macs cannot match.

    Right now the only advantage of a silicon Mac is speed.   But, as many have complained about 5G -- who needs that increased speed?   Not my friend.   But she is not willing to do without Windows.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    LOL, Apple's M1 powered Mac's exceed Windows machines by a large margin; a disruption, in performance, battery life, and low noise.

    https://twitter.com/SquawkAlley/status/1329112836484771846

    Apple loses sales all the time to cheap bastards, so losing sales to Windows users is nothing new, but the disruption is, that people that don't need Windows, and aren't "cheap bastards" are going to love the M Series Mac's. Maybe there will never be Windows on M Series Mac's, but I doubt that will be the case, just that Apple won't be driving it .
    edited November 2020 Fidonet127
  • Reply 58 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,439member

    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.
    So you are saying Apple should have abandoned the x86 architecture 4 years after switching to it?

    I am not sure what you mean when you say "operating system"...  OS X?  Windows?  With rare exception, most "modern" operating systems are not CPU dependent (best exception I can think of is MPE/iX - not really modern though and even that can run in emulation).  Are you referring to the 32 bit vs the 64 bit ISA?

    You are correct in that we don't "know" the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows...  nobody (to my knowledge) can foretell the future.  That said, if you need (or want) to run Windows, it would be wise to wait for that ability to be available before purchasing a new M-series anything rather than hoping and praying that it one day will.
    Essentially, that's what Apple did, but behind the scenes. It just took a decade to make it happen, but happen it did, in spades.
  • Reply 59 of 109
    XedXed Posts: 2,704member
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    Don’t you read the articles? Apple hasn’t stopped MS from supporting M1 Macs and will clearly make the supporting software—like they do now—if MS wants it.

    My prediction is this happens because M-series Mac interest and marketshare will grow even faster due to the new performance gains and ability to use iOS and iPadOS.

    What we don’t yet know is if Apple has or will built virtualization support for running their OSes on their M-series chips. My guess is that the M1 doesn’t have it, but that beefier M-series chips could have it.  It emulation, as the article incorrectly states, but virtualization for OSes that support the AArch64 ISA.
    Rayz2016
  • Reply 60 of 109
    The last time I tried to run Windows or a Windows program on Macs is 2009 or 2010. I understand people want or need to run Windows. I don’t have any real need for or hate of Windows. I don’t see a huge need for Windows on the Mac. The M1s are simply a step and to judge a lack of software that is native to the M?s at this point is naive. If you need Windows, Crossover might work, get a Intel Mac, Windows PC, or wait to see how it shakes out. An Intel Mac will last many years with OS updates. Apple ID all about change where it sees change needs to happen. Some of you act like all the Window installs on the Macs suddenly stopped working. 

    The M1s have embarrassed Intel. That doesn’t mean any other OS or processor is dead. 

    I can see Apple having a massive upgrade cycle just from these M1 Macs. I will be buying one of them. Some people should wait for more memory, software compatibility, or more ports. 
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