Windows on Apple Silicon is up to Microsoft, says Craig Federighi

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 109
    wood1208 said:
    Not going to happen but if Microsoft ports modified ARM Windows to run natively on M1 MACs like Windows on x86.Now a days MacOS or Windows pretty much free or people buy M1 version of Windows license from Microsoft. Customers buy MACS and load which ever OS they need for certain applications to run and switch around.
    15 years ago you would be right. Satya Narayana wants MS software on all platforms where they make money. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 62 of 109
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.

    "First of all" Apple is doing nothing to enable Windows to run on Macs.   As I said, they washed their hands of it and dumped it all on Microsoft.
    And my friend's issue is very much Apple's problem because they lost her as a customer because of their own poor decisions.  

    If the Mac line wants to continue to exist in the market place it has to attract customers -- not push them away.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    Plus, Macs will increasingly be facing competition from iPads with external keyboards and trackpads -- they are essentially 2 in 1's which the Macs cannot match.

    Right now the only advantage of a silicon Mac is speed.   But, as many have complained about 5G -- who needs that increased speed?   Not my friend.   But she is not willing to do without Windows.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    LOL, Apple's M1 powered Mac's exceed Windows machines by a large margin; a disruption, in performance, battery life, and low noise.

    https://twitter.com/SquawkAlley/status/1329112836484771846

    Apple loses sales all the time to cheap bastards, so losing sales to Windows users is nothing new, but the disruption is, that people that don't need Windows, and aren't "cheap bastards" are going to love the M Series Mac's. Maybe there will never be Windows on M Series Mac's, but I doubt that will be the case, just that Apple won't be driving it .

    That means absolutely nothing if it won't run the Windows application you need.

    And now you're calling my friend a "cheap bastard"?
    LOL....  She probably has enough money to buy you several times over.   She didn't buy a Mac because it can't run Windows -- not because she's cheap.
    You have a nasty habit of turning stories around to suit your agenda.   It must be from listening to and reading all that propaganda.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 63 of 109
    Xed said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    Don’t you read the articles? Apple hasn’t stopped MS from supporting M1 Macs and will clearly make the supporting software—like they do now—if MS wants it.

    My prediction is this happens because M-series Mac interest and marketshare will grow even faster due to the new performance gains and ability to use iOS and iPadOS.

    What we don’t yet know is if Apple has or will built virtualization support for running their OSes on their M-series chips. My guess is that the M1 doesn’t have it, but that beefier M-series chips could have it.  It emulation, as the article incorrectly states, but virtualization for OSes that support the AArch64 ISA.

    Don't you read the posts that you're responding to?  
    Here, let me repeat:

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 64 of 109
    Apple isn’t pouting or being unprofessional in regards to having Windows on the Mac. 

    The idea that Apple need to devote resources to getting Windows on the Mac is laughable. Do you listen to what you write? Apple isn’t preventing Microsoft from developing an ARM version of Windows. It will take Microsoft a while to get Windows working on the Apple Silicon Macs, and then you still have a problem with Intel based Windows programs. 

    We live in a world of internet connected and cloud computing. This is not a Windows world anymore. A good deal of computing is done through mobile devices. Microsoft has Mac versions of their office suite which will be on the new Macs or you can go the O365 route.  There are alternatives that work very well. Apple is not doomed if Windows isn’t working on the new Macs. 
    XedRayz2016dewmefocher
  • Reply 65 of 109
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Xed said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    Don’t you read the articles? Apple hasn’t stopped MS from supporting M1 Macs and will clearly make the supporting software—like they do now—if MS wants it.

    My prediction is this happens because M-series Mac interest and marketshare will grow even faster due to the new performance gains and ability to use iOS and iPadOS.

    What we don’t yet know is if Apple has or will built virtualization support for running their OSes on their M-series chips. My guess is that the M1 doesn’t have it, but that beefier M-series chips could have it.  It emulation, as the article incorrectly states, but virtualization for OSes that support the AArch64 ISA.

    Don't you read the posts that you're responding to?  
    Here, let me repeat:

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  


    "Customers"?
    "Stockholders"?

    I think we're now far beyond the stage where Apple needs Windows running on MacOS to thrive. 

    The problem here is that your perspective is understandably much narrower than Apple's. You're also focussed more on looking back, when Apple is more concerned with driving things forward. 

    Let's start with numbers.

    I think it's pretty clear now that even without Intel dropping the ball, this move has been on the card since Apple started designing their own processors for the iPhone/iPad. So the only thing that was left to decide was the timing. One of the points they highlighted at the WWDC was that only 2% of Mac users used BootCamp. Now you can argue that the figure doesn't include folk who're using Parallels or some other VM software, but if people are using Windows in a VM, then more often than not they'll be using the BootCamp installation running through Parallels. So it's really not going to get much higher than that, and I would be astonished if it was growing. Why?
    1. The main reason that folk want to run Windows is to run Office. Office is native on the Mac and so the need to run Windows natively.
    2. More people are running web apps such as the Google suite on their machines, and more businesses are switching over to cut costs 
    3. Macs have never been great for games, and so BootCamp has never been a massive draw for the serious gamer.
    4. Most bespoke applications are now built for the web or mobile. Even Microsoft targets iOS and Android, often before its desktop platform.
    Apple's ability to run Windows has been a boon, but it has never been (and should never be) the reason folk should buy a Mac. There are far cheaper ways to do it. If you're buying a Mac when you're heavily dependent on Windows then you've made a mistake. There has never been any promise that Windows would run forever (unless you can show me one), and Apple is not going to handcuff itself by promising it now.

    Apple's 'hands-off' approach is absolutely the correct strategy for Windows support. They've supplied the industry with a fully ARM compliant architecture. They didn't have to  use the ARM instruction set at all; they could've come up with a completely new instruction set to go with their ARM chips that aren't really ARM chips, but that would've made it impossible for low-level stuff like containers and virtual machines.

    They should not be polluting it to run operating systems that aren't built for full ARM compliance. That would mean that they would be tied to Intel and Microsoft when it came to fixing problems and supporting changes they make on their side. That's part of the reason OS/2 sank without a trace: IBM couldn't keep up with the changes (some say deliberate breakages) that MS was making in Windows in order to keep the emulation running. Having people, like yourself, screaming at the gates demanding to know why the latest update to Windows won't run is a distraction they don't need or want. Better to just keep a distance and let Microsoft handle what is absolutely their responsibility of making sure their OS runs on Apple kit. Then we won't end up in a position where Apple can't make changes they want to their systems because it would cause problems for the two per cent running Windows. 

    And let's not forget that the problem here is that Microsoft doesn't license Windows ARM as a standalone installation. Not really much Apple can do about that. and I don't see any real advantage to them in asking.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    Well, actually there are two more options.

    You can keep a Windows PC somewhere and remote into it, or you can use a Windows-in-the-Cloud service.

    Now, I'm going to stick my neck out a bit here and make a prediction: Microsoft will not license Windows ARM for third-party installations. Why? Because they want you to sign up for this:

    https://windowsreport.com/microsoft-cloud-pc-leaked/
    https://www.computerworld.com/article/3596512/mass-market-windows-on-the-cloud-will-be-here-in-the-spring.html

    Now, I suspect that this will not work for you and your friend because what you really want is for Apple to stick with Intel so you can keep running the two programs that you won't or can't replace. CloudPC will probably work for most of the other 2%. The rest, like yourself and your friend, should do what you should have done in the first place: buy a Windows PC.

    I have a friend who needed to run an app that used MS Access as its backing store (Why, Jesus, why??). He thought about buying a separate PC. In the end, he just pays for a Windows cloud setup. Rumour has it that MS will be running CloudPC on a fixed-price basis, which should make it a good solution for those that need it.

    edited November 2020 Fidonet127dewmeravnorodomwatto_cobra
  • Reply 66 of 109
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member

    Apple isn’t pouting or being unprofessional in regards to having Windows on the Mac. 

    The idea that Apple need to devote resources to getting Windows on the Mac is laughable. Do you listen to what you write? Apple isn’t preventing Microsoft from developing an ARM version of Windows. It will take Microsoft a while to get Windows working on the Apple Silicon Macs, and then you still have a problem with Intel based Windows programs. 

    We live in a world of internet connected and cloud computing. This is not a Windows world anymore. A good deal of computing is done through mobile devices. Microsoft has Mac versions of their office suite which will be on the new Macs or you can go the O365 route.  There are alternatives that work very well. Apple is not doomed if Windows isn’t working on the new Macs. 

    Well, if I'd read this first I could've saved myself a serious wodge of typing in a really poor web editor.
    Fidonet127watto_cobra
  • Reply 67 of 109
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    Microsoft has never been one to miss an opportunity to embarrass itself.



    But the chap running the show these days much more of a pragmatist. That's why he binned billions of dollars in development and now makes sure their software runs on iOS and Android.
    Fidonet127tmayrazorpitwatto_cobra
    iu.jpeg 31.5K
  • Reply 68 of 109
    Apple isn’t pouting or being unprofessional in regards to having Windows on the Mac. 

    The idea that Apple need to devote resources to getting Windows on the Mac is laughable. Do you listen to what you write? Apple isn’t preventing Microsoft from developing an ARM version of Windows. It will take Microsoft a while to get Windows working on the Apple Silicon Macs, and then you still have a problem with Intel based Windows programs. 

    We live in a world of internet connected and cloud computing. This is not a Windows world anymore. A good deal of computing is done through mobile devices. Microsoft has Mac versions of their office suite which will be on the new Macs or you can go the O365 route.  There are alternatives that work very well. Apple is not doomed if Windows isn’t working on the new Macs. 

    Yes, it is laughable.
    Apple standing back like a petulant child trying to lay the lack of support for WIndows all on Microsoft -- while they sit on their duff and do nothing.

    And sorry, but more than ever, in the world of PC's it's a Windows World. 
  • Reply 69 of 109
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    Microsoft has never been one to miss an opportunity to embarrass itself.



    But the chap running the show these days much more of a pragmatist. That's why he binned billions of dollars in development and now makes sure their software runs on iOS and Android.

    Actually, Apple and Microsoft have had a long love-hate relationship but eventually almost always working together for mutual benefit.  And, the real winners were us.
    I find it perplexing that Apple is simply laying back saying "Not my problem".   But it is their problem.   Just because they have to work with Microsoft to fix it doesn't mean it's not their problem.

    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.
  • Reply 70 of 109
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?

    Microsoft has never been one to miss an opportunity to embarrass itself.



    But the chap running the show these days much more of a pragmatist. That's why he binned billions of dollars in development and now makes sure their software runs on iOS and Android.

    Actually, Apple and Microsoft have had a long love-hate relationship but eventually almost always working together for mutual benefit.  And, the real winners were us.
    I find it perplexing that Apple is simply laying back saying "Not my problem".   But it is their problem.   Just because they have to work with Microsoft to fix it doesn't mean it's not their problem.

    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.

    You keep throwing this word 'petulant' around, and I'm not sure you know what it means.

    The interviewer asked Apple about Windows support, and Apple replied that it was up to Microsoft, which obviously it is.

    Microsoft owns Windows ARM
    Microsoft does not permit standalone installations of Windows ARM

    So where, in this scenario, is Apple being petulant? They were asked, they explained. Your expectations have been managed.  Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean it isn't the answer. Try not to be such a Trump about it.

    "We have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications," said Federighi. "But that's a decision Microsoft has to make, to bring to license that technology for users to run on these Macs." Federighi concludes, "But the Macs are certainly very capable of it."

    Apple's already done their bit.

    Or did you want some begging?

    And sorry, but more than ever, in the world of PC's it's a Windows World.  

    If this were true then mobile Windows wouldn't have crashed and burned and Microsoft wouldn't be releasing stuff on iOS and Android before getting to Windows. It's a web and mobile world. Even Microsoft knows this. 

    As I said, CloudPC will probably be the best option for running Windows apps on the Mac, because I'm pretty sure that Microsoft would rather folk did this than install Windows ARM on an ASi Mac.

    If that won't work for you, then your best bet is to leave the Mac platform and get yourself a PC.
    edited November 2020 tmayFidonet127watto_cobra
  • Reply 71 of 109
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,439member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.

    "First of all" Apple is doing nothing to enable Windows to run on Macs.   As I said, they washed their hands of it and dumped it all on Microsoft.
    And my friend's issue is very much Apple's problem because they lost her as a customer because of their own poor decisions.  

    If the Mac line wants to continue to exist in the market place it has to attract customers -- not push them away.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    Plus, Macs will increasingly be facing competition from iPads with external keyboards and trackpads -- they are essentially 2 in 1's which the Macs cannot match.

    Right now the only advantage of a silicon Mac is speed.   But, as many have complained about 5G -- who needs that increased speed?   Not my friend.   But she is not willing to do without Windows.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    LOL, Apple's M1 powered Mac's exceed Windows machines by a large margin; a disruption, in performance, battery life, and low noise.

    https://twitter.com/SquawkAlley/status/1329112836484771846

    Apple loses sales all the time to cheap bastards, so losing sales to Windows users is nothing new, but the disruption is, that people that don't need Windows, and aren't "cheap bastards" are going to love the M Series Mac's. Maybe there will never be Windows on M Series Mac's, but I doubt that will be the case, just that Apple won't be driving it .

    LOL....  She probably has enough money to buy you several times over. 
    So, your friend is a human trafficker?

    How wonderful for you.
    Fidonet127Xedrazorpitwatto_cobra
  • Reply 72 of 109
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.

    "First of all" Apple is doing nothing to enable Windows to run on Macs.   As I said, they washed their hands of it and dumped it all on Microsoft.
    And my friend's issue is very much Apple's problem because they lost her as a customer because of their own poor decisions.  

    If the Mac line wants to continue to exist in the market place it has to attract customers -- not push them away.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    Plus, Macs will increasingly be facing competition from iPads with external keyboards and trackpads -- they are essentially 2 in 1's which the Macs cannot match.

    Right now the only advantage of a silicon Mac is speed.   But, as many have complained about 5G -- who needs that increased speed?   Not my friend.   But she is not willing to do without Windows.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    LOL, Apple's M1 powered Mac's exceed Windows machines by a large margin; a disruption, in performance, battery life, and low noise.

    https://twitter.com/SquawkAlley/status/1329112836484771846

    Apple loses sales all the time to cheap bastards, so losing sales to Windows users is nothing new, but the disruption is, that people that don't need Windows, and aren't "cheap bastards" are going to love the M Series Mac's. Maybe there will never be Windows on M Series Mac's, but I doubt that will be the case, just that Apple won't be driving it .

    LOL....  She probably has enough money to buy you several times over. 
    So, your friend is a human trafficker?

    How wonderful for you.
    HAH! 

    Shouldn't laugh though. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 109
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.

    "First of all" Apple is doing nothing to enable Windows to run on Macs.   As I said, they washed their hands of it and dumped it all on Microsoft.
    And my friend's issue is very much Apple's problem because they lost her as a customer because of their own poor decisions.  

    If the Mac line wants to continue to exist in the market place it has to attract customers -- not push them away.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    Plus, Macs will increasingly be facing competition from iPads with external keyboards and trackpads -- they are essentially 2 in 1's which the Macs cannot match.

    Right now the only advantage of a silicon Mac is speed.   But, as many have complained about 5G -- who needs that increased speed?   Not my friend.   But she is not willing to do without Windows.
    Currently Windows 10 can go head to head with MacOS -- so Macs are facing competition from both low cost and high end Windows machines.
    LOL, Apple's M1 powered Mac's exceed Windows machines by a large margin; a disruption, in performance, battery life, and low noise.

    https://twitter.com/SquawkAlley/status/1329112836484771846

    Apple loses sales all the time to cheap bastards, so losing sales to Windows users is nothing new, but the disruption is, that people that don't need Windows, and aren't "cheap bastards" are going to love the M Series Mac's. Maybe there will never be Windows on M Series Mac's, but I doubt that will be the case, just that Apple won't be driving it .

    LOL....  She probably has enough money to buy you several times over. 
    So, your friend is a human trafficker?

    How wonderful for you.
    Joke about that every time I drive past a "buy buy BABY" store.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 74 of 109
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,408moderator
    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.
    Making an operating system work natively and be fully supported on a new architecture is not a small task. They have to write new drivers for all the hardware. For native boot, Apple would have to redo the boot loader.

    The first step would be for Microsoft to have a license program for ARM Windows, as people have mentioned a few times and given that more servers will start to use ARM, this might happen. They allowed virtualization of ARM Windows inside native ARM Windows a few months ago:

    https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/05/21/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-19631/

    "Back in February with Build 19559, we added the ability to install Hyper-V on ARM64 devices such as the Surface Pro X running the Enterprise or Pro editions of Windows 10. Today, we are offering the ARM64 VHDX for Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 19624, so that Insiders can run Windows 10 as a guest OS in Hyper-V."

    For performance, Apple could allow GPU virtualization if they haven't already. Then the VM companies could virtualize the OS and could develop a framework to allow running graphics natively on the GPU by translating the DirectX calls to Metal, which seems to be what they do now but with Apple controlling the host OS and hardware, they should be able to do that better. 3D and games could run close to native speed because everything that happens on a GPU is recompiled for it anyway it just needs to efficiently share the GPU with the host OS.

    Virtualization won't ever be a full replacement for native boot, there will always be some things that need a native system but for that there's the possibility of remote servers or just buying a cheap PC. The following PC is cheap and could be powered over a USB port:

    https://www.amazon.com/Computer-x5-Z8350-Pre-Installed-Windows-Bluetooth/dp/B08BNQLGYM

    If it was setup as a remote PC, then instead of opening VMWare/Parallels etc, that would be plugged into USB and open Microsoft Remote Desktop:

    https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-remote-desktop/id1295203466?mt=12

    Then you have Windows running on a Mac just like you would a VM. VMWare/Parallels/OWC could get into this hardware business and sell a special dongle that works over USB C. It would be better if the display output went over the USB port. This won't be a fast PC but would run everything except high-end 3D/games. If it was possible to allow the Apple GPU to be available to it via Thunderbolt, it could handle 3D that way.

    Regarding software that requires Windows to run, especially educational software, there should be a requirement with all media published by public bodies that it has to run on a cross-platform framework.
    ravnorodomdewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 75 of 109
    focherfocher Posts: 688member
    Xed said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    Don’t you read the articles? Apple hasn’t stopped MS from supporting M1 Macs and will clearly make the supporting software—like they do now—if MS wants it.

    My prediction is this happens because M-series Mac interest and marketshare will grow even faster due to the new performance gains and ability to use iOS and iPadOS.

    What we don’t yet know is if Apple has or will built virtualization support for running their OSes on their M-series chips. My guess is that the M1 doesn’t have it, but that beefier M-series chips could have it.  It emulation, as the article incorrectly states, but virtualization for OSes that support the AArch64 ISA.

    Don't you read the posts that you're responding to?  
    Here, let me repeat:

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  

    Never gonna happen, so you’ll eventually need to get over it. Apple knows how many people use Macs to run Windows apps. It clearly isn’t enough for Apple to care.
    tmayRayz2016watto_cobra
  • Reply 76 of 109
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,449member
    Rayz2016 said:
    And sorry, but more than ever, in the world of PC's it's a Windows World.  

    If this were true then mobile Windows wouldn't have crashed and burned and Microsoft wouldn't be releasing stuff on iOS and Android before getting to Windows. It's a web and mobile world. Even Microsoft knows this. 
    I think that @georgeBMac comment was about the PC market, and he is right.  Windows still dominating by far, and I don't think it has any relation to what happened to Windows Phone.  But you are right that web and mobile are very important.  But it looks like the PC still important too, considering sales growth in past months.  At the same time, as you said, MS is aware of the importance of the web and mobile.  They maybe lost the smartphone business, but it is a completely different story with the cloud.  Azure and MS 365 are very successful, and while MS has a low market share in mobile devices, they have a strong presence on them with MS 365 and their MDM tools.  
    As I said, CloudPC will probably be the best option for running Windows apps on the Mac, because I'm pretty sure that Microsoft would rather folk did this than install Windows ARM on an ASi Mac.

    If that won't work for you, then your best bet is to leave the Mac platform and get yourself a PC.
    I agree with you.  I think CloudPC ( or whatever is the final name) will the be option to run Windows in Apple Silicon Macs.  I'm not sure if it's a solution for all cases but I think it would work for many.  
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 77 of 109
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,966member
    MplsP said:
    n2macs said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Microsoft sells more software than hardware. They would benefit if Mac users could use the macOS and a non virtual version of Windows. This would also be great for Apple.
    Agreed - having Windows on an Apple machine only benefits Microsoft as well as Apple and all those Mac users who need to run Windows software or prefer Windows to MacOS.
    Finished that for you....

    MplsP said:
    n2macs said:
    Why would Microsoft want to embarrass themselves (and their ARM devices) by allowing Windows on an M1 MacBook that will massively outperform their own devices?
    Microsoft sells more software than hardware. They would benefit if Mac users could use the macOS and a non virtual version of Windows. This would also be great for Apple.
    Agreed - having Windows on an Apple machine only benefits Microsoft. The question is whether they are going to expend the resources to do so. On the surface, it doesn't make sense to spend the resources for a nominal number of machines but having a true ARM version of Windows would like be beneficial in other circumstances as well, especially given Intel's decline from dominance in the processor market.

    I do not agree with this line of thinking.  There certainly are people out there who must use Windows (for whatever reason) but prefer a Macintosh.  If they are unable to run Windows on a Mac, these individuals would be forced to purchase a PC...  and perhaps doing a Hackintosh.  This situation would result in a lost hardware sale for Apple so having Windows able to run on Macintosh hardware benefits both Microsoft & Apple.  What the numbers are is anybodies guess...  though probably favoring Microsoft (in a big way).

    Though I cannot see this (EVER) happening...  Imagine if Apple and Microsoft entered into an agreement where Microsoft could purchase and use M-series chips (perhaps a generation old) to use in their Surface devices while agreeing to develop a native M-series version of Windows.
    I should have phrased my post differently -
    I did not mean to say that Microsoft alone would benefit from an ARM version. What I intended to say was that there is little to no downside for Microsoft to have an ARM version since it expands their base and potentially opens up new markets. 
    OctoMonkey
  • Reply 78 of 109
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,966member

    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    All Microsoft has to do is make Office and Teams run on those machines. And Their CRM. Who needs Windows but to run applications? If these applications run as well on iOS, I would say Windows is not necessary.

    If your school or company wants you to run an application that does not function on your ARM based Mac you have 2 options:
    Either:   Quit
    Or:  Buy a Windows machine.

    This is an untenable situation for Microsoft, Apple and their customers.   It needs to be resolved.
    Like it or not, we live in a world of Windows

    Apple standing back with their arms folded over their chests and pouting that it's Microsoft's problem is petty and juvenile and does neither their customers nor their stockholders any good.  It also could irreparably the MacBook line as it gets squeezed between powerful, laptop capable iPads and Windows laptops.

    Microsoft must also step up to the plate.   Not only is history on the side of them swallowing their pride and working with Apple (at least when Gates was running things) but, ARM based processors will only be growing in prevalence and popularity.   It is in Microsoft's best interests to flesh out the ARM based version of their OS and make it available for retail purchase.  They need to make it the equivalent of their Intel version rather than a weak sibling.

    If each does their part, we all win.  
    Why is it Apple's problem to make Windows accessible on the M series Mac's?...
    Because everybody benefits:   Apple, Microsoft as well as the customers of both Apple and Microsoft.  Apparently Apple is washing their hands of it saying "Not my problem".

    Do they HAVE to?   No, of course not.   But it's silly of them not to help, support and encourage Microsoft to port their OS to Macs.   Again.
    Bill and Steve knew that working together benefited everybody.   Hopefully, their wisdom has not been lost.

    My friend was ready to buy a MacBook Air -- until I told her that it could never run Windows.   She immediately eliminated Macs from consideration.  
    She loses and Apple loses.  

    First of all, you don't know that the M1 MacBook Air will never run Windows.

    Nonetheless, your friend's dilemma isn't Apple's problem, and frankly, Apple's ecosystem will soon be entirely ARM computing going forward, and that is a disruption, not a disadvantage, in the marketplace.

    x86 should have been deprecated a decade ago. Now it's just a legacy operating system, dominate as it is, showing its old age. Apple putting any effort in keeping x86 on life support has little to no benefit.
    His friend’s problem is Apple’s problem in as much as it shrinks their customer base. Since Macs have a significantly smaller installed base than PCs that’s a concern. 

    I agree it’s not directly Apple’s job to design computers to run Windows. Their job is to design computers that do a good job of running MacOS, but if they can make it easier for other developers to emulate Windows or to dual boot to an ARM compatible version of windows then it would benefit a subgroup of their user base. 
    GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingamrazorpit
  • Reply 79 of 109
    Marvin said:
    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.
    Making an operating system work natively and be fully supported on a new architecture is not a small task. They have to write new drivers for all the hardware. For native boot, Apple would have to redo the boot loader.

    The first step would be for Microsoft to have a license program for ARM Windows, as people have mentioned a few times and given that more servers will start to use ARM, this might happen. They allowed virtualization of ARM Windows inside native ARM Windows a few months ago:

    https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/05/21/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-19631/

    "Back in February with Build 19559, we added the ability to install Hyper-V on ARM64 devices such as the Surface Pro X running the Enterprise or Pro editions of Windows 10. Today, we are offering the ARM64 VHDX for Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 19624, so that Insiders can run Windows 10 as a guest OS in Hyper-V."

    For performance, Apple could allow GPU virtualization if they haven't already. Then the VM companies could virtualize the OS and could develop a framework to allow running graphics natively on the GPU by translating the DirectX calls to Metal, which seems to be what they do now but with Apple controlling the host OS and hardware, they should be able to do that better. 3D and games could run close to native speed because everything that happens on a GPU is recompiled for it anyway it just needs to efficiently share the GPU with the host OS.

    Virtualization won't ever be a full replacement for native boot, there will always be some things that need a native system but for that there's the possibility of remote servers or just buying a cheap PC. The following PC is cheap and could be powered over a USB port:

    https://www.amazon.com/Computer-x5-Z8350-Pre-Installed-Windows-Bluetooth/dp/B08BNQLGYM

    If it was setup as a remote PC, then instead of opening VMWare/Parallels etc, that would be plugged into USB and open Microsoft Remote Desktop:

    https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-remote-desktop/id1295203466?mt=12

    Then you have Windows running on a Mac just like you would a VM. VMWare/Parallels/OWC could get into this hardware business and sell a special dongle that works over USB C. It would be better if the display output went over the USB port. This won't be a fast PC but would run everything except high-end 3D/games. If it was possible to allow the Apple GPU to be available to it via Thunderbolt, it could handle 3D that way.

    Regarding software that requires Windows to run, especially educational software, there should be a requirement with all media published by public bodies that it has to run on a cross-platform framework.
    Wow. Never knew PC in a USB stick exists. This will solve it with M1 Mac. Maybe Apple Insider should do a full review. I’m curious now. 
  • Reply 80 of 109
    Marvin said:
    I'm hoping they drop their childish petulance and work with Microsoft to bring native Windows back to the Mac.   Everybody would win.   There would be no losers.
    Making an operating system work natively and be fully supported on a new architecture is not a small task. They have to write new drivers for all the hardware. For native boot, Apple would have to redo the boot loader.

    The first step would be for Microsoft to have a license program for ARM Windows, as people have mentioned a few times and given that more servers will start to use ARM, this might happen. They allowed virtualization of ARM Windows inside native ARM Windows a few months ago:

    https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2020/05/21/announcing-windows-10-insider-preview-build-19631/

    "Back in February with Build 19559, we added the ability to install Hyper-V on ARM64 devices such as the Surface Pro X running the Enterprise or Pro editions of Windows 10. Today, we are offering the ARM64 VHDX for Windows 10 Insider Preview Build 19624, so that Insiders can run Windows 10 as a guest OS in Hyper-V."

    For performance, Apple could allow GPU virtualization if they haven't already. Then the VM companies could virtualize the OS and could develop a framework to allow running graphics natively on the GPU by translating the DirectX calls to Metal, which seems to be what they do now but with Apple controlling the host OS and hardware, they should be able to do that better. 3D and games could run close to native speed because everything that happens on a GPU is recompiled for it anyway it just needs to efficiently share the GPU with the host OS.

    Virtualization won't ever be a full replacement for native boot, there will always be some things that need a native system but for that there's the possibility of remote servers or just buying a cheap PC. The following PC is cheap and could be powered over a USB port:

    https://www.amazon.com/Computer-x5-Z8350-Pre-Installed-Windows-Bluetooth/dp/B08BNQLGYM

    If it was setup as a remote PC, then instead of opening VMWare/Parallels etc, that would be plugged into USB and open Microsoft Remote Desktop:

    https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-remote-desktop/id1295203466?mt=12

    Then you have Windows running on a Mac just like you would a VM. VMWare/Parallels/OWC could get into this hardware business and sell a special dongle that works over USB C. It would be better if the display output went over the USB port. This won't be a fast PC but would run everything except high-end 3D/games. If it was possible to allow the Apple GPU to be available to it via Thunderbolt, it could handle 3D that way.

    Regarding software that requires Windows to run, especially educational software, there should be a requirement with all media published by public bodies that it has to run on a cross-platform framework.
    Wow. Never knew PC in a USB stick exists. This will solve it with M1 Mac. Maybe Apple Insider should do a full review. I’m curious now. 
    These are not the answer.  It is not a USB stick.  It is an HDMI stick.  It still needs a separate keyboard & mouse, monitor for video out.  The models I have experience with still need a separate power connection (usually high wattage USB for power).  These are designed to be plugged into a TV and be a hidden computer.  They are usually very underpowered.  May as well buy an Intel NUC and sit it somewhere.
    ravnorodom
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