Craig Federighi blasts Mac security to prop up iOS App Store

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 93
    Beats said:
    aderutter said:
    I do think Apple should lock MacOS down to a single Apple provided Mac app-store, but they would likely need to reduce the commission to a much lower figure to appease the big developers and not hurt the platform. Then again, they could even maybe not take a commission at all just like they don’t charge for MacOS upgrades nowadays. 
    That would be a quick anti-trust case won by EU and US, and many developers suing Apple for locking them out of business.
    That’s never gonna fly and gladly not.

    They’re getting sued anyway.

    If Apple wins this case, I’d hope they mandate all software go through Mac App Store.

    Idiots like Sweeney will cry “monopoly” but Mac has an even smaller market share than iPhone.
    And cause thousands of operating businesses to end up with a crippled operating system?
    Suddenly see their software being denied to execute? Hundreds of research institutes? See Terminal disabled and a Unix operating system converted into a consumer toy OS? 
    Are you serious?

    Hellooo! Think McFly, think!
    muthuk_vanalingammattinozasdasdelijahgkestralDetnator
  • Reply 42 of 93
    JBSloughJBSlough Posts: 89member
    Beats said:
    I’m disappointed Apple didn’t roll out an App Store like iOS.

    People called me different names for suggesting the new M1 Mac software should be treated like iPhones App Store and said “PCs have always allowed software via web” as if moving forward was a bad idea.
    The Mac does have an App Store. You just have the option of not using it. And even if they locked down macOS like iOS you think that companies like Avid and Adobe would put their software in the Mac App Store? Never happen. And companies like Rogue Amoeba can’t put most of their software in there either just based on how it works. Those of us that use this stuff would be out of luck. No way. 
    edited May 2021 elijahgkestralDetnator
  • Reply 43 of 93
    Fidonet127Fidonet127 Posts: 305member
    A bit harsh title for this article. Sorry but there is more malware on the Mac than iOS. 

    No Apple should not lock the Mac to only one App Store. Apple would be rightfully attacked by users, developers and antitrust. Did people forget about the conspiracy stories about gatekeeper? 

    No iOS should not allow other app stores, without the ability to turn them off. Malware will vastly increase with other app stores. It isn’t just camera and microphone, but also movement, location, passwords, iCloud, WiFi, and fingerprint security. How is any other App Store going to keep that safe?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 93
    EsquireCatsEsquireCats Posts: 1,220member
    physguy said:
    I read his testimony and he didn’t ‘blast’ anything. He told a very factual state of things. iOS is a higher bar. macOS is not as good. Apple wants both to be better but macOS has farther to go. 

    He doesn’t  say macOS is bad just not as good on security as iOS.  What is being proposed would take iOS backwards WRT security, with which I agree strongly based on available evidence such as the state of Android. 

    Unbelievably sensational clickbait headline. 
    I second that. i’m rather tired of overly aggressive terms being used to described every kind of discourse. It’s part of the divisional problem of the USA - any kind of discussion is framed as an attack.

    Forums are already picking up this headline as evidence that the mac is unsafe. (Because in manipulating opinion: headlines are all that matter.)
    mattinozradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 93
    michelb76michelb76 Posts: 325member
    Well, it's no secret that MacOSX has tons of issues. It's not a priority and the attack surface is really small compared to iOS. Also fixing stuff doesn't make a new product release so that's why 6 year-old radars never get picked up.
    elijahgwatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 93
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,072member
    Yea because they want to lock macOS down too like iOS.  LAME.  

    Apple needs to open up iOS to be more like macOS.  Why should people have to jailbreak in order to run what they want?  
    Because the vast majority of people have no idea of how to deal with the constantly-rising level of malware, and on devices where biometric, health, financial and other sensitive personal information is stored you want the best possible security given the constraints in play.

    iOS is clearly popular JUST THE WAY IT IS. People have voted with their wallets, after all. And after 13+ years on the market, it's not credible to argue that iOS causes significant harms that are only being overlooked because customers are uninformed.

    If it helps, remember that people are still buying vehicles from Volkswagen.

    That is, I think, very true.
    I will install and store stuff on my iPhone that I would never put on a PC regardless of its maker or its OS.
    I even keep a separate PC devoted to only finances -- but I don't store the stuff on there that I store on my iPhone.

    Security is ALWAYS a trade-off between freedom and safety.  That wall that keeps the keeps bad guys out also keeps you locked in.  Yes, you can put a gate into the wall to let you go in and out -- but that same gate can and will be used to let the bad guys go in and out.
    skippingrockDetnator
  • Reply 47 of 93
    Federighi is breaking down one of Epic's main talking points, i.e., the iPhone should just be lumped into the same category as laptops/desktops. It really is a different product, just like consoles are a different product. Both the iPhone and consoles fall into a category of device that was intended from the beginning to be easier to use than a desktop/laptop computer. They both fall into a category where users could either be kids or adults. And both consoles and the iPhone use a simplified method for distributing the applications that are used because it makes the most sense relative to the audience for the product. 
    edited May 2021 mattinoztobianasdasdwatto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 93
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,711member
    aderutter said:
    I do think Apple should lock MacOS down to a single Apple provided Mac app-store, but they would likely need to reduce the commission to a much lower figure to appease the big developers and not hurt the platform. Then again, they could even maybe not take a commission at all just like they don’t charge for MacOS upgrades nowadays. 
    That would be a quick anti-trust case won by EU and US, and many developers suing Apple for locking them out of business.
    That’s never gonna fly and gladly not.
    Not to mention the users of the software many having custom plugins that drive value add for their business. App Store model will not work with a plug-in system anytime soon certainly not user generated plugins..
    elijahgkestral
  • Reply 49 of 93
    tobiantobian Posts: 117member
    Bless you Apple, bless you Craig, for this way of thinking, keeping Mac free like a car!

    I love the Mac.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 93
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,336member
    Free like a car?  :o
    killroyelijahg
  • Reply 51 of 93
    thedbathedba Posts: 668member
    chasm said:
    thedba said:
    Actually they did, with the Mac App Store. Not very successful as many apps outside of Apple’s own, weren’t  there for various reasons, the main one being Apple’s 30% cut. 
    Woah, let me stop you right there. You don't get to spew easily-disproven, nonsensical bullshit here and not get called out for it.

    While specific figures are not available for the Mac App Store, it is by far the most successful of any marketplace for Mac Apps, and offers a catalog of at least 1.5 million apps (and that's a stat from more than two years ago) -- the largest single repository of apps for the Mac platform by far. Nearly every major developer writing apps for the Mac has a presence on the Mac App Store, and consumers generally prefer to download from the Mac App Store because of the incredibly low risk of malware concerns, that the app has been tested by Apple, and the store's easy refund policy if you change your mind.

    Developers can offer their wares at prices that include Apple's cut on the App Store, or they can offer it independently (which is generally MORE expensive/time-consuming than 30 percent of the purchase price unless you are a large and very successful developer), or they can remember back to when software was sold in boxes in stores and both the store AND the distributors took substantial cuts that would usually total in excess of 50-70 percent. Developers can offer a product in the MAS and also encourage users to buy it in other ways (SetApp, directly, etc), but most users enjoy the convenience of the Mac App Store.. Building and maintaining a secure website that operates in every market worldwide, provides world-class analytics, with iron-clad payment security and an easy refund policy is not cheap or easy, me bucko -- try it sometime!

    Your comment shows off your ignorance. Until you can provide some evidence to support your BS, maybe sit down and suck your thumb.


    Who pee'd in your Corn Flakes?

    You want examples of apps not present in the Mac App store?
    1) Citrix Receiver: Even though "Citrix SSO" is there it simply doesn't work. So I had to download "Citrix receiver" outside the Mac App store.

    2) UltraEdit/UltraCompare suite: I have projects using this suite on both Windows and Mac. Gotta get it from outside.

    3) FortiClient VPN:  Not there. I have two clients whom I connect to using this particular VPN.

    4) SQL Developer for Oracle: Nope not there either.

    5) Cisco AnyConnect VPN:  A client is set up with this and he had to send me the dmg file through his Cisco account.

    That's just five examples. There are others.  

    edited May 2021 muthuk_vanalingamasdasdGeorgeBMackillroyelijahgkestral
  • Reply 52 of 93
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,787member
    This is a case where I don't think the headline comports with what he actually said.  He didn't "blast" MacOS security.  He said it was more vulnerable and had issues they didn't find acceptable.  A bit of click-bait, I think.  
    Fidonet127GeorgeBMacmattinozbyronlwatto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 93
    Precisely iOS has a sophisticated approach to system security, natively capable of sandboxing specific installs. By allowing this possibility to independent app stores, Apple can simply verify App store candidates just like it verifies apps on the App Store today.

    Thats it. even safer than the App Store today, given its manifest incapability to deal with the app approval process in a smooth way. More app stores curating all of this would necessarily be also safer through the multiplication of qualified staff approval..

    Referencing the macOS in this discussion is so blatantly deceptive that it will end up doing more harm then good. Though  Zuckerberg, Mark 1 got away with so so much of this that who knows these days.
  • Reply 54 of 93
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,306member
    People have very short memories, it seems. At the time the iOS app store was introduced, it was still common for software purchases to come on physical media. You bought a CD-ROM in a box with a printed user license number and a big, thick instruction manual, and it was expensive. Leading up to that time, there wouldn't have been a way for Apple or Microsoft or anyone to operate a walled-garden app store. Online stores were emerging, but that was the Wild West. Even as major software companies started making their applications available online it often felt weird to the consumer, who would wonder about how to recover or reinstall software if their system crashed and they didn't have physical installation media for their applications. 

    So when the iOS app store was introduced, the idea that software would be inexpensive and easy to purchase, download and install was a new thing. Having all apps reviewed for security, stability and compliance with UI conventions so that instruction manuals were unnecessary was a new thing. Having apps that were as easy to remove as they were to install was a new thing. iPhones and iOS were also a new thing, and the first iPhones didn't even allow third-party apps at all. So it was a clean slate, and Apple created a secure system from scratch for devices that would otherwise be extremely vulnerable because they would constantly be connected to the internet. The "i" in iPhone stands for "internet," you know.

    If Apple had first introduced Macs at the same time and in the same context, they'd have created a locked-down Mac App Store, too. They've been moving more and more in that direction, but Macs predate the internet and it's a lot more difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. So with all that as context, it's not surprising at all that Federighi would make the comparisons of the two systems that he did. MacOS is a lot more secure than its competitors, but it's not as secure as iOS, which was built from the ground up as an internet-connected operating system. Android was built on legacy operating system paradigms like Windows, to be run on unknown third-party hardware and to run unknown third party apps.

    This all goes to the reason why consumer choice happens before the customer buys the device and operating system. Do you want the device that is more open, but less secure, or do you want the device that is more restricted, but also more secure?
    edited May 2021 CheeseFreezeGeorgeBMacwatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 93
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,321member
    A bit harsh title for this article. Sorry but there is more malware on the Mac than iOS. 

    No Apple should not lock the Mac to only one App Store. Apple would be rightfully attacked by users, developers and antitrust. Did people forget about the conspiracy stories about gatekeeper? 

    No iOS should not allow other app stores, without the ability to turn them off. Malware will vastly increase with other app stores. It isn’t just camera and microphone, but also movement, location, passwords, iCloud, WiFi, and fingerprint security. How is any other App Store going to keep that safe?
    Because it still has to run on the very secure iOS?
  • Reply 56 of 93
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,306member
    gatorguy said:
    A bit harsh title for this article. Sorry but there is more malware on the Mac than iOS. 

    No Apple should not lock the Mac to only one App Store. Apple would be rightfully attacked by users, developers and antitrust. Did people forget about the conspiracy stories about gatekeeper? 

    No iOS should not allow other app stores, without the ability to turn them off. Malware will vastly increase with other app stores. It isn’t just camera and microphone, but also movement, location, passwords, iCloud, WiFi, and fingerprint security. How is any other App Store going to keep that safe?
    Because it still has to run on the very secure iOS?
    That's not the same thing, and that's the point of Federighi's testimony. iOS was built from the ground up as a secure, internet-connected operating system, and when the App Store was introduced, it was a component of that secure paradigm, unlike any previous operating system's third-party app management process. The Mac predated all that, and you can't easily put the genie back in the bottle. They do a lot to make MacOS secure, but it's not as secure as iOS is with its single, proprietary app store to manage all third-party applications. Forcing them to break up that system will inherently degrade security and take away the choice currently available to consumers in being able to buy an iOS device that meets current security standards.
    killroyFidonet127GeorgeBMacroundaboutnowwatto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 93
    There is a famous science fiction story called "The Humanoid Touch" by Jack Williamson in which millions of well meaning androids land on Earth and smother all humans with care. They make humans so safe that they are incapable of doing anything that involves even the smallest amount of risk. This is what Craig Federighi wants to do for Mac users. I have been using MacOS for decades now and have never had a serious problem with malware of any kind but in Craig's mind there is still a tiny chance I could download a bad app and so keeps adding layer after layer of security which serves mainly to break the apps I need to do my job. I am a software developer. There are exactly zero software development apps that run natively on iOS, you know, because they are too risky. There is a very simple way to make both MacOS and iOS 100% safe. Just get rid of all third party apps.
    edited May 2021 kestralcanukstorm
  • Reply 58 of 93
    jibjib Posts: 29member
    Beats said:
    I’m disappointed Apple didn’t roll out an App Store like iOS.

    People called me different names for suggesting the new M1 Mac software should be treated like iPhones App Store and said “PCs have always allowed software via web” as if moving forward was a bad idea.

    Antitrust. If Apple tried to lock down macOS after being open for all these years they’d be accused of abusing their position. Same goes with Windows.
    Highly unlikely in my opinion (under US law, at least).  Macs have about a 10% market share. I always prefer the App Store for Mac applications, if there is a choice.
    killroywatto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 93
    killroykillroy Posts: 173member
    thedba said:
    Beats said:
    I’m disappointed Apple didn’t roll out an App Store like iOS.

    People called me different names for suggesting the new M1 Mac software should be treated like iPhones App Store and said “PCs have always allowed software via web” as if moving forward was a bad idea.
    Actually they did, with the Mac App Store. Not very successful as many apps outside of Apple’s own, weren’t  there for various reasons, the main one being Apple’s 30% cut. 

    Drivers for cards like fiber optics you will not find in the app sore. You will not find all of Adobe or Avid there to. A lot of Pro broadcast apps are not in the store.
    kestral
  • Reply 60 of 93
    killroykillroy Posts: 173member
    thedba said:
    chasm said:
    thedba said:
    Actually they did, with the Mac App Store. Not very successful as many apps outside of Apple’s own, weren’t  there for various reasons, the main one being Apple’s 30% cut. 
    Woah, let me stop you right there. You don't get to spew easily-disproven, nonsensical bullshit here and not get called out for it.

    While specific figures are not available for the Mac App Store, it is by far the most successful of any marketplace for Mac Apps, and offers a catalog of at least 1.5 million apps (and that's a stat from more than two years ago) -- the largest single repository of apps for the Mac platform by far. Nearly every major developer writing apps for the Mac has a presence on the Mac App Store, and consumers generally prefer to download from the Mac App Store because of the incredibly low risk of malware concerns, that the app has been tested by Apple, and the store's easy refund policy if you change your mind.

    Developers can offer their wares at prices that include Apple's cut on the App Store, or they can offer it independently (which is generally MORE expensive/time-consuming than 30 percent of the purchase price unless you are a large and very successful developer), or they can remember back to when software was sold in boxes in stores and both the store AND the distributors took substantial cuts that would usually total in excess of 50-70 percent. Developers can offer a product in the MAS and also encourage users to buy it in other ways (SetApp, directly, etc), but most users enjoy the convenience of the Mac App Store.. Building and maintaining a secure website that operates in every market worldwide, provides world-class analytics, with iron-clad payment security and an easy refund policy is not cheap or easy, me bucko -- try it sometime!

    Your comment shows off your ignorance. Until you can provide some evidence to support your BS, maybe sit down and suck your thumb.


    Who pee'd in your Corn Flakes?

    You want examples of apps not present in the Mac App store?
    1) Citrix Receiver: Even though "Citrix SSO" is there it simply doesn't work. So I had to download "Citrix receiver" outside the Mac App store.

    2) UltraEdit/UltraCompare suite: I have projects using this suite on both Windows and Mac. Gotta get it from outside.

    3) FortiClient VPN:  Not there. I have two clients whom I connect to using this particular VPN.

    4) SQL Developer for Oracle: Nope not there either.

    5) Cisco AnyConnect VPN:  A client is set up with this and he had to send me the dmg file through his Cisco account.

    That's just five examples. There are others.  


    Add all Broadcast production apps and raid drivers to that.
    edited May 2021 GeorgeBMackestral
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