Craig Federighi blasts Mac security to prop up iOS App Store

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 93
    aderutter said:
    I do think Apple should lock MacOS down to a single Apple provided Mac app-store, but they would likely need to reduce the commission to a much lower figure to appease the big developers and not hurt the platform. Then again, they could even maybe not take a commission at all just like they don’t charge for MacOS upgrades nowadays. 
    That would be a quick anti-trust case won by EU and US, and many developers suing Apple for locking them out of business.
    That’s never gonna fly and gladly not.
    spock1234muthuk_vanalingamFidonet127elijahgkestral
  • Reply 22 of 93
    KTRKTR Posts: 203member
    sdw2001 said:
    I feel like Epic’s argument is “we want you to change the product and system you created.  For us.  Your honor, make them do what we want! How dare they create a secure product people are happy with and is enormously successful?”  
    Well said man
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 93
    KTRKTR Posts: 203member
    aderutter said:
    I do think Apple should lock MacOS down to a single Apple provided Mac app-store, but they would likely need to reduce the commission to a much lower figure to appease the big developers and not hurt the platform. Then again, they could even maybe not take a commission at all just like they don’t charge for MacOS upgrades nowadays. 
    I think by apple switching to the M1 processor, apples downloaded from the iOS App Store, can run on the mac, that can now be a safe heaven to go from the iOS to the Mac OS 


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 93
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 873member
    I think I know what I'm doing when I install software on a Mac. I also run software on a weekly basis to search for malware. Nothing on any of my Macs but both my wife and daughter discovered loads of malware in their MBPs. 

    It's not the case that only sophisticated users use Macs, and it can't be. Apple has done a credible job at putting security gates in MacOS and their hardware. I don't expect perfection, but I do for apps I download from the IOS App Store. 

    I do think developers get a large boon by selling on the IOS App Store that is worth even the 30% Apple take. If I find their IOS products useful and trustworthy, I am more than happy to purchase their MacOS versions outside of an Apple controlled store because they have earned my trust. 

    Give me a good product, be a trustworthy partner, and you've got a customer. 

    FileMakerFellerAlexMorellospock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 93
    netroxnetrox Posts: 1,114member
    What Craig said is actually accurate. 

    We do have App Store and I rely on App Store to get apps and hope that all software companies will use that to install. I love the convenience it offers me. 
     
    Also, MacOS has been around for decades so it's not easy to build a wall around it - there are so many software out there requiring some services that App Store doesn't offer. But it is clearly making its Mac hardware more difficult to hack with T1/T2 chipsets. 
     
    If the OS is being redesigned, it would definitely be no allowance for third party software unless verified via a trusted curator. Consumers can run VMs if they want. 

    The thing is Apple is more a bout security and privacy than other companies that put so much bloatware and malware in their cheap computers and you wonder why they're never happy. 
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 93
    chasmchasm Posts: 2,416member
    thedba said:
    Actually they did, with the Mac App Store. Not very successful as many apps outside of Apple’s own, weren’t  there for various reasons, the main one being Apple’s 30% cut. 
    Woah, let me stop you right there. You don't get to spew easily-disproven, nonsensical bullshit here and not get called out for it.

    While specific figures are not available for the Mac App Store, it is by far the most successful of any marketplace for Mac Apps, and offers a catalog of at least 1.5 million apps (and that's a stat from more than two years ago) -- the largest single repository of apps for the Mac platform by far. Nearly every major developer writing apps for the Mac has a presence on the Mac App Store, and consumers generally prefer to download from the Mac App Store because of the incredibly low risk of malware concerns, that the app has been tested by Apple, and the store's easy refund policy if you change your mind.

    Developers can offer their wares at prices that include Apple's cut on the App Store, or they can offer it independently (which is generally MORE expensive/time-consuming than 30 percent of the purchase price unless you are a large and very successful developer), or they can remember back to when software was sold in boxes in stores and both the store AND the distributors took substantial cuts that would usually total in excess of 50-70 percent. Developers can offer a product in the MAS and also encourage users to buy it in other ways (SetApp, directly, etc), but most users enjoy the convenience of the Mac App Store.. Building and maintaining a secure website that operates in every market worldwide, provides world-class analytics, with iron-clad payment security and an easy refund policy is not cheap or easy, me bucko -- try it sometime!

    Your comment shows off your ignorance. Until you can provide some evidence to support your BS, maybe sit down and suck your thumb.


    BeatsFileMakerFellerAlexMorellospock1234Fidonet127bikerdudewatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 27 of 93
    libertyforalllibertyforall Posts: 1,398member
    Yea because they want to lock macOS down too like iOS.  LAME.  

    Apple needs to open up iOS to be more like macOS.  Why should people have to jailbreak in order to run what they want?  
    edited May 2021 AlexMorelloelijahgkestral
  • Reply 28 of 93
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,695member
    Beats said:
    I’m disappointed Apple didn’t roll out an App Store like iOS.

    People called me different names for suggesting the new M1 Mac software should be treated like iPhones App Store and said “PCs have always allowed software via web” as if moving forward was a bad idea.
    So would you get rid of Terminal to prevent users from getting more detailed control than the macOS GUI allows?

    No.

    I’m just disappointed it doesn’t have a central App Store like their other products have.

    it’s kind of weird looking at it that way. Even Watch has a dedicated central App Store.
  • Reply 29 of 93
    ericthehalfbeeericthehalfbee Posts: 4,324member
    Beats said:
    I’m disappointed Apple didn’t roll out an App Store like iOS.

    People called me different names for suggesting the new M1 Mac software should be treated like iPhones App Store and said “PCs have always allowed software via web” as if moving forward was a bad idea.

    Antitrust. If Apple tried to lock down macOS after being open for all these years they’d be accused of abusing their position. Same goes with Windows.
    Fidonet127kestralwatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 93
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,695member
    Would Epic's arguments even apply to macOS, if Apple decided to have a single App Store on macOS? 

    YES. That’s the irony.

    Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

    They would have argued that it needs to break up also. If Apple was damned for allowing 3rd party stores on Mac, I argue that they would be better off damned for having ONE first party app like iOS.
  • Reply 31 of 93
    ericthehalfbeeericthehalfbee Posts: 4,324member
    Throwing macOS under the bus (“the most advanced OS in the world”!) to defend their monopolistic cash-cow, the App Store.
    What a douche.
    Look in the mirror, d-bag.

    He didn’t say macOS was insecure. He stated that Apple wasn’t happy with the current state of malware and called it unacceptable. You can have a secure system and still not be satisfied if it can be made better.
    FileMakerFellerbestkeptsecretFidonet127urahararadarthekatroundaboutnowwatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 93
    sdw2001 said:
    I feel like Epic’s argument is “we want you to change the product and system you created.  For us.  Your honor, make them do what we want! How dare they create a secure product people are happy with and is enormously successful?”  
    ... and then charge us money to make money from it?
    AlexMorellowatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 93
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,695member
    aderutter said:
    I do think Apple should lock MacOS down to a single Apple provided Mac app-store, but they would likely need to reduce the commission to a much lower figure to appease the big developers and not hurt the platform. Then again, they could even maybe not take a commission at all just like they don’t charge for MacOS upgrades nowadays. 
    That would be a quick anti-trust case won by EU and US, and many developers suing Apple for locking them out of business.
    That’s never gonna fly and gladly not.

    They’re getting sued anyway.

    If Apple wins this case, I’d hope they mandate all software go through Mac App Store.

    Idiots like Sweeney will cry “monopoly” but Mac has an even smaller market share than iPhone.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 93

    Indeed, if I were Apple I would be freaked out by the idea of iPhone users being able to be persuaded into downloading theftware or software that can bypass all of iOS's security mechanisms. Apple does have signing for Mac apps distributed outside of the Mac App Store, but you can turn that off and arguing that Apple must provide such a service to third parties trying to build their own App Store for iOS apps is basically demanding that another company implement what you want in order to enable your business. And Apple enabling third party App Stores for iOS without apple doing any fingerprinting of the apps themselves would be insane. 

    At least on the Mac the number of applications floating around isn't all that large, and the number people actually install is even smaller. 

    All that said, Apple could make a far better App Store experience, and could probably enable third parties to serve as App Store marketers by letting them take a cut. If Epic was operating as the marketer for apps that were available through the regular iOS App Store but took, say, a 40% cut of the 30% paid to Apple by the user then there would be better marketing of those apps but the security model would still be in place. 

    The way Apple currently operates, broad marketing can only be done by Apple. Revenue sharing could change that enormously, and for the better for everyone. Imagine a website dedicated to writers or developers or gamers being able to review and link to the iOS App Store, with revenue sharing. We could end up with better writing apps, or better apps for developers or gamers, because we would have better dedicated gatekeepers motivated to be the place that users go to find well reviewed apps fitting a target market. Apple's own App Store is so freakin huge and has to balance presented apps to ensure fairness that it literally can't solve the problem of filtering apps to only the best to serve a particular purpose. 

    Marketing revenue sharing is hardly a panacea as well. It could certainly be abused, and until some trusted websites really get going and figure out how to reliable show up first in google versus crappy sites just popping up to get a cut, it could just end up being a cost to Apple with little user benefit. But it should be doable and would go a long way toward ameliorating Apple's potential anti-trust issues related to the App Store. 
    So, something like https://affiliate.itunes.apple.com/resources/ extended to apps?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 93
    Yea because they want to lock macOS down too like iOS.  LAME.  

    Apple needs to open up iOS to be more like macOS.  Why should people have to jailbreak in order to run what they want?  
    Because the vast majority of people have no idea of how to deal with the constantly-rising level of malware, and on devices where biometric, health, financial and other sensitive personal information is stored you want the best possible security given the constraints in play.

    iOS is clearly popular JUST THE WAY IT IS. People have voted with their wallets, after all. And after 13+ years on the market, it's not credible to argue that iOS causes significant harms that are only being overlooked because customers are uninformed.

    If it helps, remember that people are still buying vehicles from Volkswagen.
    spock1234GeorgeBMacradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 93

    Federighi also contrasted the iPhone with the Mac by saying that the smartphone is much more personal, typically contains sensitive data, and has features like a camera and a microphone. All of these factors make iPhones "very attractive targets."
    I have to quibble with Mr Federighi here. With iCloud, all your data is available on all your devices, and there are very few Apple computing products that do not come with a camera and microphone installed - and I believe there are none that don't come with a microphone (although that depends how you classify the AppleTV).

    His overall point still stands.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 93
    Beats said:
    sflocal said:
    Beats said:
    I’m disappointed Apple didn’t roll out an App Store like iOS.

    People called me different names for suggesting the new M1 Mac software should be treated like iPhones App Store and said “PCs have always allowed software via web” as if moving forward was a bad idea.
    I believe if MacOS had an App Store similar to iOS and only software from that App Store can be installed, it would have meant the death of MacOS for sure.  

    I hate Android, I love iOS.  MacOS has to balance that line between user safety, and flexibility.  There are tons of apps that aren't on the Mac App Store, and it will always be that way.  I the user accept responsibility for downloading/installing software that could infect it.  When I need to install software, I look first at the Mac App Store, but most of the time it's from the developer's website.

    iOS is completely a different animal.  It's a toaster.  Treat it as such.

    It’s called moving forward. Just like how developers are migrating to M1.

    The irony is that the judge is questioning why they allow multiple app stores on Mac. Had Mac had one iOS-like App Store the argument wouldn’t have arose.
    They already have a Mac with only a store, it’s called an iPad. Stick with that and let the rest of us do actual work.
    spock1234elijahgwatto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 93
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,681member
    aderutter said:
    I do think Apple should lock MacOS down to a single Apple provided Mac app-store, but they would likely need to reduce the commission to a much lower figure to appease the big developers and not hurt the platform. Then again, they could even maybe not take a commission at all just like they don’t charge for MacOS upgrades nowadays. 
    You realise that this means stopping downloads on safari and turning a largely open unix if protected unix OS into a toy? That the Terminal app would have to go? It would kill development and business use. 

    Sometimes the posts on this forum by supposed Apple fans leaves me shaking my head. 
    CheeseFreezepscooter63muthuk_vanalingamrcomeauthedbaelijahgkestralDetnator
  • Reply 39 of 93
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,681member
    chasm said:
    thedba said:
    Actually they did, with the Mac App Store. Not very successful as many apps outside of Apple’s own, weren’t  there for various reasons, the main one being Apple’s 30% cut. 
    Woah, let me stop you right there. You don't get to spew easily-disproven, nonsensical bullshit here and not get called out for it.

    While specific figures are not available for the Mac App Store, it is by far the most successful of any marketplace for Mac Apps, and offers a catalog of at least 1.5 million apps (and that's a stat from more than two years ago) -- the largest single repository of apps for the Mac platform by far. Nearly every major developer writing apps for the Mac has a presence on the Mac App Store, and consumers generally prefer to download from the Mac App Store because of the incredibly low risk of malware concerns, that the app has been tested by Apple, and the store's easy refund policy if you change your mind.

    Developers can offer their wares at prices that include Apple's cut on the App Store, or they can offer it independently (which is generally MORE expensive/time-consuming than 30 percent of the purchase price unless you are a large and very successful developer), or they can remember back to when software was sold in boxes in stores and both the store AND the distributors took substantial cuts that would usually total in excess of 50-70 percent. Developers can offer a product in the MAS and also encourage users to buy it in other ways (SetApp, directly, etc), but most users enjoy the convenience of the Mac App Store.. Building and maintaining a secure website that operates in every market worldwide, provides world-class analytics, with iron-clad payment security and an easy refund policy is not cheap or easy, me bucko -- try it sometime!

    Your comment shows off your ignorance. Until you can provide some evidence to support your BS, maybe sit down and suck your thumb.


    That’s a ridiculously aggressive comment, even if somebody is wrong. Also those figures seem way off for the Mac App Store considering the iOS store US reported as just 2M. 
    muthuk_vanalingamkestral
  • Reply 40 of 93
    Beats said:
    Beats said:
    I’m disappointed Apple didn’t roll out an App Store like iOS.

    People called me different names for suggesting the new M1 Mac software should be treated like iPhones App Store and said “PCs have always allowed software via web” as if moving forward was a bad idea.
    So would you get rid of Terminal to prevent users from getting more detailed control than the macOS GUI allows?

    No.

    I’m just disappointed it doesn’t have a central App Store like their other products have.

    it’s kind of weird looking at it that way. Even Watch has a dedicated central App Store.
    Mac does have an official App Store. If someone is scared of downloading apps elsewhere then they can choose to limit themselves to applications only from that store. But if you are not scared to download from other sources you are free to do so. If you work at a research lab and need to use simulation software developed by some other research group at MIT or elsewhere that they make readily available to outside groups, they should have to submit it to the official Mac App store?
    asdasd
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