White House shot down Intel plans to increase chip production in China

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 95
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    Xed said:
    LOL I can't wait to hear the contortions of people ... that hate private US companies from doing any business outside the US, especially in China.
    I buy from non-dictatorships any time I can, even when it costs more. But I don't hate. Don't make it sounds that I'm motivated by hate. I'm motivated by love for freedom and democracy. 

    If you want to imagine that I'm motivated by hate, I guess that's your right to be wrong.
    Are you an American? You are illogical. You do not live in China. Why are you afraid of losing freedom and democracy because of China? 
    Probably because China is the dirtiest country when it comes to tech history.
    williamlondonqwerty52
  • Reply 42 of 95
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,584member
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 
    That’s just totally incorrect. In fact, the entire mess we’ve been in the past few years is the responsibility of the last administration. Trump made made claims about plants being built here because of his demands. It turned out that the few that were, had been in the planning and even early construction stage before he came into office, or even began campaigning. A couple, which he visited, and made a big deal about, had their work shifted to Mexico when he was in office.

    this wasn’t really thought of as a problem that merited serious work until the Covid related shortages. And when shortages happen, we get inflation and other issues. So suddenly, it’s a problem.

    i didn’t see Trump work to get a $50 billion fund for semiconductor R&D and manufacture here in the USA, but Biden pushed it through.
    XedGeorgeBMactmay
  • Reply 43 of 95
    tmay said:
    joogabah said:
    tmay said:
    Xed said:
    LOL I can't wait to hear the contortions of people ... that hate private US companies from doing any business outside the US, especially in China.
    I buy from non-dictatorships any time I can, even when it costs more. But I don't hate. Don't make it sounds that I'm motivated by hate. I'm motivated by love for freedom and democracy. 

    If you want to imagine that I'm motivated by hate, I guess that's your right to be wrong.
    Are you an American? You are illogical. You do not live in China. Why are you afraid of losing freedom and democracy because of China? 
    Gee, if only the PRC would limit itself to occupying Mainland China.

    Instead, it's all about invading Taiwan, occupying the South China Sea, and the First Island Chain, as if those were exclusive economic zones for the PRC. Moreover, the PRC is more than happy to export its brand of authoritarianism. Fortunately, the West is quite aware of the PRC's broad expansionist plans, and while late to constrain the PRC, the West is strengthening alliances to resist that expansionism, both militarily and economically.

    Meanwhile, the PRC has a limited timeframe to do all of this before its heavily senior demographics overwhelms its shrinking working population, all with a birth rate that is too little to maintain the population. It's probable that the PRC won't ever be a rich country, and can expect its population to halve by 2060.

    What the West is concerned about is that Xi will launch an invasion of Taiwan by 2025, and will attempt to challenge the West's military supremacy in the Pacific in this decade, but that risk diminishes by 2035.
    Both the PRC and Taiwan officially consider themselves to be the governments of ALL of China.
    You can't invade your own country.  This is an internal matter between factions within China, part of a stalemate in a civil war, and it is wildly inappropriate for the USA to be dictating who should prevail.  It should be up to the Chinese people to forge their own destiny.
    Yes, it would be about invading. Taiwan is democratic with very different laws and a very different political system. China is a Dictatorship which does not have the Rule of Law. The Taiwanese people do not want to be ruled by China. So yes it would be an invasion. Also it is not up to the Chinese people to forge their own destiny. It is up to Xi Jinping to forge the destiny of the Chinese people because he makes all the rules and there is nothing the Chinese people can do about it. If a Chinese citizen doesn’t like one of Xi Jinping’s rules and speaks up about it, then they can go to prison. Or I guess you could say the Communist Party’s rules but Xi Jinping is the head of the party so he usually gets what he wants.

    Pick me! Pick Me!

    Do you understand the political meaning of the word peacefully here?

    At gunpoint?


    The same as US brings democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan. 
    Iraq does have democracy. That is correct. The majority of Iraqis are glad that Saddam Hussein is no longer in power.
    The majority of Americans are glad that Donald Trump is no longer in power. LOL
    Not by a lot. Biden won by 42,918 votes. If Georgia, Arizona, and Wisconsin would have gone the other way, then Trump would be president. Millions more Americans voted for Biden but it doesn’t matter. Only electoral votes matter. So if a candidate wins the state by 1 vote, or if the candidate wins by a million votes, it makes no difference. And right now states are changing the election laws to take away decision making powers from Secretaries of State and giving that power to state legislators instead. And also taking away power from independent election commissions. So I guess we will see what happens next time. 
    Where do you get this number? LOL
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 44 of 95
    tmay said:
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 

    The foundation for that foolishness was laid by Republicans who still want to instigate a cold war -- or possibly even a hot one.

    It was Trump who tied production in China to National Security -- then provoked them in order to make his prophecy self-fulfilling.

    At least Biden toned down the hate filled rhetoric and propaganda.
    Frankly, it sounds like this has more to do with American jobs than National Security.  And that puts it on a different platform where its merits can be debated logically rather then through hate and fear.
    It's primarily about National Security, hence the shifting of focus of the U.S. Military and our allies to the Indo-Pacific. 

    https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2530733/erosion-of-us-strength-in-indo-pacific-is-dangerous-to-all-commander-says/

    Since the 1990s, successive U.S. administrations have emphasized the importance of the Indo-Pacific region. Davidson called it "the most consequential region for America's future," and more and more defense resources are pouring into the United States military's priority theater. 

    "The region itself contains four of the five priority security challenges identified by the Department of Defense: China, Russia, North Korea and violent extremist organizations," Davidson said. "The Indo-Pacific region also experiences frequent, natural and manmade disasters, the negative impacts of climate change, rapid population growth, drug and human trafficking and of course, disease and pandemics."

    The region accounts for 60 percent of the world's current gross domestic product, and contributes more than two-thirds to the present global economic growth. "In 10 years, the region will host two-thirds of the world's population and two-thirds of the global economy," Davidson said. 

    The United States promotes the current free and open Indo-Pacific region that has allowed all nations — including China — to prosper. Moving forward, the United States remains committed to free, fair and reciprocal trade. The United States wants all nations to have access to global markets. The American position also fosters good governance, human rights and civil liberties. 



    If Americans change their thinking toward China from confrontation and competition to cooperation, the national security issue will disappear easily. China will never invade USA or attack US military forces. 
  • Reply 45 of 95
    emig647 said:
    Blizzard said:
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism.

    How can they not make money when they are making good money from their manufacturing of processors in the USA right now? The whole idea of prices needing to be doubled or tripled would only happen if the entire process of making the processors was done by hand, which it clearly isn't.
    His original argument was toast in the first sentence. Both Intel and TSMC are building fabs in Arizona right now. TSMC has a large fab in southern WA. Intel has many fabs in Oregon. They both are profitable. This whole argument started from an igorant statement by someone clearly on the spectrum. Just ignore him. 
    You don't have to look too far to Intel and TSMC. Just look at Apple. Mac Pros are being made in Texas. Is it a success? Apple refused to disclose the number. But the sales must be dismal with a starting price of $5599. 
  • Reply 46 of 95
    Blizzard said:
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism.

    How can they not make money when they are making good money from their manufacturing of processors in the USA right now? The whole idea of prices needing to be doubled or tripled would only happen if the entire process of making the processors was done by hand, which it clearly isn't.
    This is totally false. The proof is in the stock price of INTC. Intel investors know more than you and they don't lie with their money. AMD, NVDA, QCOM are all near their all time highs. And they all manufacture chips through TSMC factories in Taiwan. 
  • Reply 47 of 95
    glennh said:
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 
    Bullshit! This crap started under the Reagan Administration. I live in Silicon Valley and personally saw Intel strip and close chip factories in the past to move the equipment over seas to increase profits to enrich executives bonuses through excessive profits through cheap labor and not regards for either domestic and foreign workers, the environment or national security concerns. 

    One would think that after the World’s Covid PPE shortages made worst by the hoarding, excessive profiteering and the arrogant Chinese Communist Party using its control of the manufacturing as a political weapon the world has learned the lesson of depending on a inherently corruption and authoritarian to deliver essential goods.

     The Biden administration is 1000 percent correct in trying to stop our “Capitalist from selling the ROPES to OUR and the ENTIRE WORLD HANGING!” 

    True, it did start under Reagan. 
    American industry realized that it had two options: 
    -- Continue manufacturing in the U.S. -- and go out of business.
    -- Move production to more efficient countries (such as Japan at the time) and prosper.

    Reagan tried Protective Tariffs to stop that move.  But protective tariffs can never overcome free market capitalism.  

    We needed to make American industry more efficient instead of trying to build castle walls around it  and hunkering down inside the prison we built for ourselves.  Castle walls can only slow the attack but eventually they fail.
    Yes, you are totally right. The world is moving to a digital information culture. We need to concentrate on making information more useful and work for us instead of waiting resources on military expenditures that we mostly never use. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 48 of 95
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Beats said:
    Xed said:
    LOL I can't wait to hear the contortions of people ... that hate private US companies from doing any business outside the US, especially in China.
    I buy from non-dictatorships any time I can, even when it costs more. But I don't hate. Don't make it sounds that I'm motivated by hate. I'm motivated by love for freedom and democracy. 

    If you want to imagine that I'm motivated by hate, I guess that's your right to be wrong.
    Are you an American? You are illogical. You do not live in China. Why are you afraid of losing freedom and democracy because of China? 
    Probably because China is the most capable country when it comes to manufacturing tech
    Fixed that for you.

  • Reply 49 of 95
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 

    The foundation for that foolishness was laid by Republicans who still want to instigate a cold war -- or possibly even a hot one.

    It was Trump who tied production in China to National Security -- then provoked them in order to make his prophecy self-fulfilling.

    At least Biden toned down the hate filled rhetoric and propaganda.
    Frankly, it sounds like this has more to do with American jobs than National Security.  And that puts it on a different platform where its merits can be debated logically rather then through hate and fear.
    It's primarily about National Security, hence the shifting of focus of the U.S. Military and our allies to the Indo-Pacific. 

    https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/2530733/erosion-of-us-strength-in-indo-pacific-is-dangerous-to-all-commander-says/

    Since the 1990s, successive U.S. administrations have emphasized the importance of the Indo-Pacific region. Davidson called it "the most consequential region for America's future," and more and more defense resources are pouring into the United States military's priority theater. 

    "The region itself contains four of the five priority security challenges identified by the Department of Defense: China, Russia, North Korea and violent extremist organizations," Davidson said. "The Indo-Pacific region also experiences frequent, natural and manmade disasters, the negative impacts of climate change, rapid population growth, drug and human trafficking and of course, disease and pandemics."

    The region accounts for 60 percent of the world's current gross domestic product, and contributes more than two-thirds to the present global economic growth. "In 10 years, the region will host two-thirds of the world's population and two-thirds of the global economy," Davidson said. 

    The United States promotes the current free and open Indo-Pacific region that has allowed all nations — including China — to prosper. Moving forward, the United States remains committed to free, fair and reciprocal trade. The United States wants all nations to have access to global markets. The American position also fosters good governance, human rights and civil liberties. 



    If Americans change their thinking toward China from confrontation and competition to cooperation, the national security issue will disappear easily. China will never invade USA or attack US military forces. 

    ... unless the U.S. forces China to reunify Taiwan by force -- and then tries to use its military to "defend" that island.  Hopefully no U.S. president would be crazy enough to take on the Chinese military on their home turf.  But, our history of sanity has been a little shaky these past 60 years.  And, with our democracy under attack from within, there's no guarantees.

    But, outside of that, you are right.  China wants to trade with the U.S., not fight with it.
    edited November 2021
  • Reply 50 of 95
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,110member
    glennh said:
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 
    Bullshit! This crap started under the Reagan Administration. I live in Silicon Valley and personally saw Intel strip and close chip factories in the past to move the equipment over seas to increase profits to enrich executives bonuses through excessive profits through cheap labor and not regards for either domestic and foreign workers, the environment or national security concerns. 

    One would think that after the World’s Covid PPE shortages made worst by the hoarding, excessive profiteering and the arrogant Chinese Communist Party using its control of the manufacturing as a political weapon the world has learned the lesson of depending on a inherently corruption and authoritarian to deliver essential goods.

     The Biden administration is 1000 percent correct in trying to stop our “Capitalist from selling the ROPES to OUR and the ENTIRE WORLD HANGING!” 
    You don't understand history of high tech. The chips have thousands times more transistors than forty years ago. The cost of equipment skyrocketed. Company need to mass produce chips in order to make profit. Intel is the largest chip manufacturer. It is now excluded from the largest chip sector. Those are used by smartphones. There is little to zero probability Apple or Android manufacturers will switch to Intel chips. Intel is hanging on the PCs. China is the biggest market for PCs I believe. Intel need to keep the cost of PC down to maintain PC sales in China. This is why it needs to increase chip manufacturing in China. Otherwise, China will switch to Apple Silicon macs in no time. 
    A few years ago there was a Netflix documentary about the dangers of doing business with China.  The Boeing CEO (former?) admitted in the documentary about knowing that China's demand of having Boeing manufacturing planes in China, AND be partly owned by the CCP will result in China eventually ripping-off its IP and eventually throwing Boeing out of China once it is able to make a clone of their plane and that the CEO was only interested in retiring with a hefty monetary package.  He didn't care that China would steal Boeing's IP and eventually, use it against them. 

    So no.  Screw China.  Selling globally does not have to mean selling one's soul to China in the process and if it takes a bloated, bureaucratic monolith that is our U.S. government to get involved to set a speed limit, so be it.
    tmayqwerty52llama
  • Reply 51 of 95
    sflocal said:
    glennh said:
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 
    Bullshit! This crap started under the Reagan Administration. I live in Silicon Valley and personally saw Intel strip and close chip factories in the past to move the equipment over seas to increase profits to enrich executives bonuses through excessive profits through cheap labor and not regards for either domestic and foreign workers, the environment or national security concerns. 

    One would think that after the World’s Covid PPE shortages made worst by the hoarding, excessive profiteering and the arrogant Chinese Communist Party using its control of the manufacturing as a political weapon the world has learned the lesson of depending on a inherently corruption and authoritarian to deliver essential goods.

     The Biden administration is 1000 percent correct in trying to stop our “Capitalist from selling the ROPES to OUR and the ENTIRE WORLD HANGING!” 
    You don't understand history of high tech. The chips have thousands times more transistors than forty years ago. The cost of equipment skyrocketed. Company need to mass produce chips in order to make profit. Intel is the largest chip manufacturer. It is now excluded from the largest chip sector. Those are used by smartphones. There is little to zero probability Apple or Android manufacturers will switch to Intel chips. Intel is hanging on the PCs. China is the biggest market for PCs I believe. Intel need to keep the cost of PC down to maintain PC sales in China. This is why it needs to increase chip manufacturing in China. Otherwise, China will switch to Apple Silicon macs in no time. 
    A few years ago there was a Netflix documentary about the dangers of doing business with China.  The Boeing CEO (former?) admitted in the documentary about knowing that China's demand of having Boeing manufacturing planes in China, AND be partly owned by the CCP will result in China eventually ripping-off its IP and eventually throwing Boeing out of China once it is able to make a clone of their plane and that the CEO was only interested in retiring with a hefty monetary package.  He didn't care that China would steal Boeing's IP and eventually, use it against them. 

    So no.  Screw China.  Selling globally does not have to mean selling one's soul to China in the process and if it takes a bloated, bureaucratic monolith that is our U.S. government to get involved to set a speed limit, so be it.
    Apple knows how to deal with China. There are lots of Chinese companies try to copy Apple. Apple engineers make Apple products better and better. Boeing engineers forgot to stick its mastering on aircraft. It makes 737 Max with a huge bug. Two plane loads of passengers died of its crash. Boeing suffered as a result. Your use of Boeing as attack to China shows your ignorance of the facts. As a counter example, look at Tesla. Tesla almost went bankrupt a year ago. Its factory in Shanghai saved it and skyrocketed Elon Musk to become the richest person on earth. It is apparently due to China. 
    edited November 2021 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 52 of 95
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,097member
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 
    Any American, German or any other company in the west living thru the current chip shortage who doesn’t change the way they do business? It is utterly ridiculous the spot the USA is in due to the pursuit of the gig/slave economy.

    The current car industry has been brought to it’s knee’s, you can’t build or sell anything if you don’t have the parts and those critical parts have to be made in the first world or at the least in three different geographical locations across the world (SO IF ONE GOES DOWN YOUR COMPANY DON’T GO DOWN), the endless pursuit of slave wages over the last 50 years how’s that working currently?


  • Reply 53 of 95
    sflocal said:
    glennh said:
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 
    Bullshit! This crap started under the Reagan Administration. I live in Silicon Valley and personally saw Intel strip and close chip factories in the past to move the equipment over seas to increase profits to enrich executives bonuses through excessive profits through cheap labor and not regards for either domestic and foreign workers, the environment or national security concerns. 

    One would think that after the World’s Covid PPE shortages made worst by the hoarding, excessive profiteering and the arrogant Chinese Communist Party using its control of the manufacturing as a political weapon the world has learned the lesson of depending on a inherently corruption and authoritarian to deliver essential goods.

     The Biden administration is 1000 percent correct in trying to stop our “Capitalist from selling the ROPES to OUR and the ENTIRE WORLD HANGING!” 
    You don't understand history of high tech. The chips have thousands times more transistors than forty years ago. The cost of equipment skyrocketed. Company need to mass produce chips in order to make profit. Intel is the largest chip manufacturer. It is now excluded from the largest chip sector. Those are used by smartphones. There is little to zero probability Apple or Android manufacturers will switch to Intel chips. Intel is hanging on the PCs. China is the biggest market for PCs I believe. Intel need to keep the cost of PC down to maintain PC sales in China. This is why it needs to increase chip manufacturing in China. Otherwise, China will switch to Apple Silicon macs in no time. 
    A few years ago there was a Netflix documentary about the dangers of doing business with China.  The Boeing CEO (former?) admitted in the documentary about knowing that China's demand of having Boeing manufacturing planes in China, AND be partly owned by the CCP will result in China eventually ripping-off its IP and eventually throwing Boeing out of China once it is able to make a clone of their plane and that the CEO was only interested in retiring with a hefty monetary package.  He didn't care that China would steal Boeing's IP and eventually, use it against them. 

    So no.  Screw China.  Selling globally does not have to mean selling one's soul to China in the process and if it takes a bloated, bureaucratic monolith that is our U.S. government to get involved to set a speed limit, so be it.

    If China stole Boeing's ip there would be a case against them.  There wasn't and hasn't.
    On the other hand, who would want to steal Boeing's ip?
    avon b7
  • Reply 54 of 95
    This is totally false. The proof is in the stock price of INTC. Intel investors know more than you and they don't lie with their money. AMD, NVDA, QCOM are all near their all time highs. And they all manufacture chips through TSMC factories in Taiwan. 

    What are you talking about? Intel has a 27% profit margin on its revenue. Intel makes a lot of money from its own fabs in the USA. You have yet to provide any evidence that Intel doesn't make any money from fabs in the USA. https://www.intc.com/news-events/press-releases/detail/1505/intel-reports-third-quarter-2021-financial-results
  • Reply 55 of 95
    ...

    I believe that you are posting here as part of your United Front Work Department duties, but of course, I have no way of proving that. Still, your effort is all in the same cause; supporting the PRC.

    Interesting that the EU is finally acting on this.

    How is truth "supporting the PRC"?

    BTW, you whine about fuel shortages in China but I never heard you mention fuel prices here.
    But, in both instances, they are due to surging economies opening up wide -- and both are transient problems.

  • Reply 56 of 95
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,437member
    ...

    I believe that you are posting here as part of your United Front Work Department duties, but of course, I have no way of proving that. Still, your effort is all in the same cause; supporting the PRC.

    Interesting that the EU is finally acting on this.

    How is truth "supporting the PRC"?

    BTW, you whine about fuel shortages in China but I never heard you mention fuel prices here.
    But, in both instances, they are due to surging economies opening up wide -- and both are transient problems.

    Factually, China isn't buying enough energy from foreign sources, so while pricing is certainly an issue globally, China's added problem is that they banned the use of coal from what was their largest source, Australia, over a diplomatic spat. They are suffering coal shortages necessary for power production, and worse, during winter.

    Also, and for the record, OPEC, and Russia are limiting production to increase prices.
  • Reply 57 of 95
    hydrogen said:
    At some point in time, you American will have to decide whether you want to do business with China or be at war with it.
    NEITHER
  • Reply 58 of 95
    tmay said:
    ...

    I believe that you are posting here as part of your United Front Work Department duties, but of course, I have no way of proving that. Still, your effort is all in the same cause; supporting the PRC.

    Interesting that the EU is finally acting on this.

    How is truth "supporting the PRC"?

    BTW, you whine about fuel shortages in China but I never heard you mention fuel prices here.
    But, in both instances, they are due to surging economies opening up wide -- and both are transient problems.

    Factually, China isn't buying enough energy from foreign sources, so while pricing is certainly an issue globally, China's added problem is that they banned the use of coal from what was their largest source, Australia, over a diplomatic spat. They are suffering coal shortages necessary for power production, and worse, during winter.

    Also, and for the record, OPEC, and Russia are limiting production to increase prices.

    It's a short lived problem.  Not a big deal.  But, the American press likes to magnify any minor problems that arise in China into major catastrophes.  I've been reading that the sky is falling in China for a couple decades now -- but it's still up there.

    And, it wasn't a minor diplomatic problem.  Australia joined Trump's smear campaign against China by legitimizing and propagating right wing conspiracy theories against them.  China was smart to shut them off.
  • Reply 59 of 95
    Dogperson said:
    hydrogen said:
    At some point in time, you American will have to decide whether you want to do business with China or be at war with it.
    NEITHER

    Americans are whining about a little inflation now.   Can you even begin to imagine if we stopped doing business with China?   Inflation would be well into double digits while quality of life for Americans would go down the tubes.   We need them.   They need us.   It's just how free market capitalism works.
  • Reply 60 of 95
    The chip shortage will continue under Biden administration. Companies will not manufacture chips in US. They cannot make money. If they try to raise prices they need to double or triple the prices. And this route is not working. Democrats have no concept of capitalism. 
    Nothing to do with the Biden admin., "Domocrats....., "that is why all the GOP barons are shutting the big AMERICAN tech companies. Democrats have traditionally recued the economy for the benefit of the GOP. Think Obama, with the crisis od 2008, not only HE lifted the economy but handled down to Trumpet the best EVER American economy. Now go back to school
    GeorgeBMac
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