The equality argument shouldn't stand or fall on the basis of, "Well, it's private, so they can do what they want."
Privacy doesn't mean jack.
The way I've configured the argument is in terms of indutry wide (sporting business) practice and whether that constitutes sexism.
Clearly it does not since women in the world of sport enjoy a great many venues with similar practices, but reversed in that they exclude men and only allow women. A club or corporation is free to seek out ad money from whomever they wish and whomever wishes to be associated with them.
Mebbe we should all attack the sponsors of Girl Guides for supplying cookies to a corporation that excludes boys?
Augusta will change when golf gets a really kick-ass woman player- one as good as Tiger Woods. After all, Augusta didn't let black people play there until Lee Elder in '75, 14 years after the PGA was forced to open it's membership to black players, and 9 years after the first black player won on the PGA tour.
Either that, or Tiger will have to publicly drop out of the tournement.
Seems clear to most people here at this point. Corporation, club, etc. They can set their path, sponsors and others who work with them can choose to or not to, etc.
Again, it's really not worth the hubbub being created around it.
If a guy wanted in to some long-standing, private women-only club and went to these lengths to do it, most everyone would be saying "what is his problem? Why is he obsessed with this? Aren't there about a bazillion other clubs - men only or co-ed - that he could join and enjoy?".
It's because it's a "woman trying to break into an old boys club" that the media and other misguided types have latched on to this as a "significant, worthwhile crusade".
Augusta will change when golf gets a really kick-ass woman player- one as good as Tiger Woods. .
This women already exist, her name is Annika Sorenstam. She win nearly all tournaments where she appear even if they did not win many grand slam ones. Once she played 59, win onze tournament in 2002 in the wome PGA tour...
Yes, and if she ever gets her lanky ass onto a real golf course, she won't make the cut. If they let her hit from the pansy tees, maybe, but I still doubt it. It's not even just a length thing, the short games of most LPGA players can't compare to the guys. Anika would get murdered on the greens at Augusta.
Did you see the 18 hole match between Sorenstam/Woods and Webb/Duval last year? (I think I have the pairings right...) It was downright embarassing how poorly the women played. Hitting 200-210 yard drives, missing greens by a mile, hitting 20 foot chips 15 feet by the hole. I don't think either made a putt over 5 feet. (Anika did make one long one near the end) It looked more like Woods and Duval had their little sisters out with them for a round than PRO women golfers. I could hardly watch.
I would just LOVE for them to let her play there. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! She'd shoot 82, 84 and we'd all have a good laugh at what the most dominant female golfer in the world shot at Augusta. I'd love to see her come into the 18th green with driver, 3 wood, 6 iron.
(yeah I know this isn't exactly the issue, but it HAS come up alot in the last year)
Hey, whatever happened to this? It just dawned on me (flipping through the paper earlier) that the tournament was this past weekend.
Did lots of people show up? Did things get ugly? Any arrests? Did Jesse preach some? Or was it all kinda a big non-event (not the Masters, but the protests).
As a woman, I really couldn't care less if a private club allowed women or not. This doesn't infringe on my rights in anyway and golf is a worthless sport that no one should waste time or money playing, much less whining about. These kinds of complaints harm any legitimate women's movement because they're so focused on such a trivial area. Find a real problem and put all your energy into that.
Also, I was just reading in "The Economist" that you have to be invited to join. Turns out it took a long time before Bill Gates was finally asked, much to his dismay. Guess money really can't buy you everything.
Since golf was invented, men have been trying to find ways to keep women off the course. Many ploys were tried over the years, but the most successful has been to introduce incredibly ugly pants and playing jackets etc.
No doubt there are women who have the muscle to hit a 500 yard drive, but the thought of being forced to wear knickerbocker pants and some really daggy outfit that doesn't match their latest hairdo & fingernail polish is more than they could bear.
As a woman, I really couldn't care less if a private club allowed women or not. This doesn't infringe on my rights in anyway and golf is a worthless sport that no one should waste time or money playing, much less whining about. These kinds of complaints harm any legitimate women's movement because they're so focused on such a trivial area. Find a real problem and put all your energy into that.
Also, I was just reading in "The Economist" that you have to be invited to join. Turns out it took a long time before Bill Gates was finally asked, much to his dismay. Guess money really can't buy you everything.
Ah. Reading "The Economist?" Spoken like a true feminist.
George Vecsey wrote an interesting article in The New York Times today. We Could Use More Burks talks about the lead "muckracker" herself. I especially enjoyed the reference to Simon & Garfunkle's "The Sound of Silence" and The Eagle's "New York Minute."
As a woman, I really couldn't care less if a private club allowed women or not. This doesn't infringe on my rights in anyway and golf is a worthless sport that no one should waste time or money playing, much less whining about. These kinds of complaints harm any legitimate women's movement because they're so focused on such a trivial area. Find a real problem and put all your energy into that.
Also, I was just reading in "The Economist" that you have to be invited to join. Turns out it took a long time before Bill Gates was finally asked, much to his dismay. Guess money really can't buy you everything.
Right on. This distracts people from the real issues such as gender equity and (legitimate) sexual harrassment.
Plus, if someone gives August National an economic reason to admit women, an incentive, they'll do it. Otherwise they won't. Period. The protests are designed to bully an economic reason, to force it to happen. Force or coercion is always a bad way of persuading. Markets are better.
Comments
Originally posted by The General
Is it a privately owned corporation?
Yes. The stock is not traded publicly.
The equality argument shouldn't stand or fall on the basis of, "Well, it's private, so they can do what they want."
Privacy doesn't mean jack.
The way I've configured the argument is in terms of indutry wide (sporting business) practice and whether that constitutes sexism.
Clearly it does not since women in the world of sport enjoy a great many venues with similar practices, but reversed in that they exclude men and only allow women. A club or corporation is free to seek out ad money from whomever they wish and whomever wishes to be associated with them.
Mebbe we should all attack the sponsors of Girl Guides for supplying cookies to a corporation that excludes boys?
Either that, or Tiger will have to publicly drop out of the tournement.
Again, it's really not worth the hubbub being created around it.
If a guy wanted in to some long-standing, private women-only club and went to these lengths to do it, most everyone would be saying "what is his problem? Why is he obsessed with this? Aren't there about a bazillion other clubs - men only or co-ed - that he could join and enjoy?".
It's because it's a "woman trying to break into an old boys club" that the media and other misguided types have latched on to this as a "significant, worthwhile crusade".
This ain't Rosa Parks and the bus, people.
Originally posted by tmp
Augusta will change when golf gets a really kick-ass woman player- one as good as Tiger Woods. .
This women already exist, her name is Annika Sorenstam. She win nearly all tournaments where she appear even if they did not win many grand slam ones. Once she played 59, win onze tournament in 2002 in the wome PGA tour...
Did you see the 18 hole match between Sorenstam/Woods and Webb/Duval last year? (I think I have the pairings right...) It was downright embarassing how poorly the women played. Hitting 200-210 yard drives, missing greens by a mile, hitting 20 foot chips 15 feet by the hole. I don't think either made a putt over 5 feet. (Anika did make one long one near the end) It looked more like Woods and Duval had their little sisters out with them for a round than PRO women golfers. I could hardly watch.
I would just LOVE for them to let her play there. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! She'd shoot 82, 84 and we'd all have a good laugh at what the most dominant female golfer in the world shot at Augusta. I'd love to see her come into the 18th green with driver, 3 wood, 6 iron.
(yeah I know this isn't exactly the issue, but it HAS come up alot in the last year)
Did lots of people show up? Did things get ugly? Any arrests? Did Jesse preach some? Or was it all kinda a big non-event (not the Masters, but the protests).
Also, I was just reading in "The Economist" that you have to be invited to join. Turns out it took a long time before Bill Gates was finally asked, much to his dismay. Guess money really can't buy you everything.
No doubt there are women who have the muscle to hit a 500 yard drive, but the thought of being forced to wear knickerbocker pants and some really daggy outfit that doesn't match their latest hairdo & fingernail polish is more than they could bear.
In which case men, win by default!
the protest was in a mall. there were (according to the guest) 40 protestors and 200 newspeople.
sounds like someone's trying to make an issue out of this one.
Originally posted by Naderfan
As a woman, I really couldn't care less if a private club allowed women or not. This doesn't infringe on my rights in anyway and golf is a worthless sport that no one should waste time or money playing, much less whining about. These kinds of complaints harm any legitimate women's movement because they're so focused on such a trivial area. Find a real problem and put all your energy into that.
Also, I was just reading in "The Economist" that you have to be invited to join. Turns out it took a long time before Bill Gates was finally asked, much to his dismay. Guess money really can't buy you everything.
Ah. Reading "The Economist?" Spoken like a true feminist.
although i think she's becoming disillusioned with the dark side.....
soon we will claim her.......
You're her... FATHER?
"NOOOOoooooooOOOO!"
Originally posted by alcimedes
i think that'd get me arrested in 38 states if i was.
Arrested? Probably.
Texas might try to
Originally posted by Naderfan
As a woman, I really couldn't care less if a private club allowed women or not. This doesn't infringe on my rights in anyway and golf is a worthless sport that no one should waste time or money playing, much less whining about. These kinds of complaints harm any legitimate women's movement because they're so focused on such a trivial area. Find a real problem and put all your energy into that.
Also, I was just reading in "The Economist" that you have to be invited to join. Turns out it took a long time before Bill Gates was finally asked, much to his dismay. Guess money really can't buy you everything.
Right on. This distracts people from the real issues such as gender equity and (legitimate) sexual harrassment.
Plus, if someone gives August National an economic reason to admit women, an incentive, they'll do it. Otherwise they won't. Period. The protests are designed to bully an economic reason, to force it to happen. Force or coercion is always a bad way of persuading. Markets are better.