When Apple previewed Jaguar at WWDC last year, you didn't get a free upgrade if you bought 10.1 after that day. . .
Just a thought: If Apple does begin selling new 970 equipped PowerMacs before Panther is ready, they may make an exception to their normal policy. Since these PowerMacs are 64-bit machines, Jaguar would be a temporary OS, since it would not run future 64-bit applications.
I could easily imagine Apple shipping a free copy of Panther to anyone who buys a 970 Mac early. It's almost a no brainer. If the hardware is ready much before the OS, Apple stands to make a lot of revenue from selling PowerMacs as soon as they are ready.
The local news staitons would all do reports about it. Mentioning that Apple was holding a conference at the San Jose Convention Center, they would mention what was talked about.
I almost shat a brick this AM when I opened up my local newspaper and found this :
This town, and state for that matter, is so conservative it is unreal. At the back of the local/state section there is usually one page dedicated to Business. I cannot remember the last time Apple made any news there. I think it was in the Sunday, two-page technology special section, that the flat panel iMac was mentioned. The impact of the iTunes Music Store is that large!
First let me say that just like Ompus speculated, so am I.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ompus
1. There will be no 970s in the powerbooks until IBM reaches 90 nm.
Why? The 970 has a lower power version that runs at 1.2 GHz, and puts out less wattage than the G4 in the current powerbooks. So why would they wiat for 90 nm? No need.
Quote:
2. Until that time, the powerbook will have a speed bump and battery boost with the impending arrival of the 7457.
I wouldn't count on the 7457 seeing the light of day in any Apple product. Why is it any more believeable to say the 7457 will be in a Mac vs the 970? The lower power 970 can provide less wattage than the current G4 (what does the 7457 put out), so machines using it would run longer/cooler.
Quote:
3. The current powermacs, emacs and iMacs will get 7457s and drop their prices by 25%.
Why? The eMacs and iMacs can ride the current G4 on up to 1.4GHz before switching to the 970. There is no need for the 7457 at all.
Quote:
4. The 970 Macstation will have a price premium of 10% over the current 7455s.
The powermacs will move to all 970, no split machines, and will never see the 7457. It will not cost any more than the current configs. Apple is not about to raise their prices after havign just lowered them.
Quote:
6. The 7457 will survive for another year in the iBook.
I say no. I bet GOBI will be in the iBooks, and they will never see a G4 ever. The GOBI processor is supposed to be a G3+SIMD, so if it can run altivec, and be low power and quick, there would be no need for the G4 any longer.
I don't know if this has any impact on the 970, but I thought I would let some of the outside world in here.
Probably not a whole lot on the 970, but it is nice to see that IBM is continuing pushing the edges...seeing as how they are the (main) supplier for Apple's CPU's in the near future.
I am curious to know how the process of moving to .09 microns is coming....
IBM upping the Power 4 to 1.7GHz is brilliant news! I believe it indicated that the IBM fabs are running very well, and that the Power4 architecture has legs and is scalable. IBM achieves to increase my faith in the 970, which has thinner oxide gates to achieve higher performance/clock-frequency (though lower reliability which it doesn't need anyways). I'm now even more sure of an early launch of the DP 1.8GHz 970 POWERMac happening
First let me say that just like Ompus speculated, so am I.
And I whole heartedly agree with every one of your reasons. Apple will sack Moto quite soon. I would be surprised to see any of their gear in an Apple product by years end.
And I whole heartedly agree with every one of your reasons. Apple will sack Moto quite soon. I would be surprised to see any of their gear in an Apple product by years end.
That would imply that the G5 will be in the PowerBook, eMac and iMac, or it would say that IBM will have a G4 replacement, a 32-bit PPC with AltiVec. If the latter were true, it would not need to support SMP for consumer and PowerBook.
Just in case anyone hasn't noticed, Apple has just recently updated their whole product line except for the 15" PowerBook and the PowerMac. The IBM chip is supposed to be ready some time this summer. The PowerBook and PowerMac both need an update. Is it not obvious that they will both be updated soon.
Yes, The powerbook too. There is no other direction for the PowerBook to go. The 1.2Ghz 970 will be cooler than a 1.2Ghz G4. I doubt the PowerBooks could handle anything over 1Ghz anyways. Why do you think that the 17" did not get a chip anyfaster than the older 15", and why do you think the PowerMacs have so many fans to run the 1.42Ghz? The 970 is the only other course of action besides the 7457, which Moto said would not be out until early next year.
WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THE 970 is going to be so much hotter than the G4? Its a .13µ chip should be cooler really.
ok got to restart 10.2.6 just installed...gosh I haven't restarted...well since 10.2.5 lol
That would imply that the G5 will be in the PowerBook, eMac and iMac, or it would say that IBM will have a G4 replacement, a 32-bit PPC with AltiVec. If the latter were true, it would not need to support SMP for consumer and PowerBook.
GOBI
GOBI is a updated "g3" with SIMD, faster bus, and more.
The 970 will go in the towers, and powerbooks.
The iBooks will get GOBI.
The iMacs will either get faster G4s (they have 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 GHz parts they could use right now), and then move to the 970. Or the iMacs might just get a low power 970 in their next update.
The eMac was just updated, so the next update will probably be a low power 970, or a faster G4 part (again they have 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 parts).
None of the machines will move "down" to a GOBI, but the iBook will be moved up. It will never see a G4 (no need), and depending on where GOBI goes, might see a 970 down the road (way down the road). And maybe the GOBI will end up in something else (DLD?)
it ain't just a faster chip, it's also on a system that's no longer being choked... (to be fair, the G4 would continue to benefit from speed bumps were it not for the throttling limitation of the crappy Moto FSB which starves even the current G4 from its true performance)
expect major performance gains in anything that has to now been limited by the FSB... without even considering the faster CPU itself and it's effect on performance
GOBI is a updated "g3" with SIMD, faster bus, and more. . .
I had not heard about SIMD being in GOBI. If true, it is essentially a G4 replacement for single processor Macs. Do you have some more information on this?
Quote:
. . . The iMacs will either get faster G4s (they have 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 GHz parts they could use right now), and then move to the 970. Or the iMacs might just get a low power 970 in their next update. . .
The posting I replied to suggests that Apple will cut off Motorola as a supplier. If true, there would be no Motorola G4 parts for the iMacs and eMacs, so the G4 option you suggest does not apply. if the suggestion posted is false, than of course the G4 will still be a an option.
Quote:
None of the machines will move "down" to a GOBI, but the iBook will be moved up. It will never see a G4 (no need), and depending on where GOBI goes, might see a 970 down the road (way down the road). And maybe the GOBI will end up in something else (DLD?)
If GOBI has SIMD as you say, it is no step down to put it in the iMac and eMac. That would surely be the end of Motorola for Apple. However, I am not convinced that GOBI has SIMD.
Where did you get these (incorrect) numbers? The current 167 MHz MPX bus has a throughput of ~1.33 GB/sec and the next version of the G4 apparently supports 200 MHz (~1.6 GB/sec). The 970's bus with a 1.8 GHz processor delivers 3.2 GB/sec read + 3.2 GB/sec write for a total of 6.4 GB/sec. At 1.4 GHz the numbers drop to a total of ~5 GB/sec. This is a 3.75 - 4x improvement. Time will tell if Apple has build a chipset and memory subsystem to fill the FSB.
I had not heard about SIMD being in GOBI. If true, it is essentially a G4 replacement for single processor Macs. Do you have some more information on this?
Ok, it is not GOBI, but the 850:
Quote:
PowerPC 850: Based on an extended G3 core (750/740) that will probably increase the pipeline to 10 stages or so, it will have 512KB L2 cache, 32bit core, made on 130nm process, at least 36bit memory addressing,and include Altivec. The bus will be a RapidIO (probably 2 16bit ports) and have a built-in memory controller for DDR-SDRAM. This will limit it's usage with SMP but considering the target market, this is not much of an issue. Power consumption will be a major design point. Expected: 4Q 03
Quote:
The posting I replied to suggests that Apple will cut off Motorola as a supplier. If true, there would be no Motorola G4 parts for the iMacs and eMacs, so the G4 option you suggest does not apply. if the suggestion posted is false, than of course the G4 will still be a an option.
I would say that MOT might get cut off as a future chip maker, but not a future supplier at this time. The G4 could (note could) still be used as is (ie the 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 GHz parts). MOT wouldn't need to do any more work on it, jsut produce chips based on what they already have for the iMac and eMac. They are the only products that would need a G4 for the short-term. They could easily move to 970s (low power 970's) within a year of introduction.
Quote:
If GOBI has SIMD as you say, it is no step down to put it in the iMac and eMac. That would surely be the end of Motorola for Apple.
It wouldn't be a step down (it has a 200MHz bus, and SIMD). But I don't think they would change chips twice so soon. Meaning go from G4 to GOBI to 970 in a year/year-and-a-half. My question is why switch these to GOBI? They could easily both go to the low power 970, running at 1.2/1.4 GHZ while the towers run at 1.6/1.8/2.0 GHz. heck, maybe the return of the fanless iMac?
It wouldn't be a step down (it has a 200MHz bus, and SIMD). But I don't think they would change chips twice so soon. Meaning go from G4 to GOBI to 970 in a year/year-and-a-half. My question is why switch these to GOBI? They could easily both go to the low power 970, running at 1.2/1.4 GHZ while the towers run at 1.6/1.8/2.0 GHz. heck, maybe the return of the fanless iMac?
Two different classes of machine. The GOBI/850/whatever replaces the role of the G3 -- low power, really cheap, single processor systems only. The 970 might be low power compared to a Pentium4 or Athlon, but its still way too hot for the kind of portable and small machine uses that I suspect Apple would use it for. The PowerBooks may get the low end 970s, but the iBook will get the other.
Where did you get these (incorrect) numbers? The current 167 MHz MPX bus has a throughput of ~1.33 GB/sec and the next version of the G4 apparently supports 200 MHz (~1.6 GB/sec). The 970's bus with a 1.8 GHz processor delivers 3.2 GB/sec read + 3.2 GB/sec write for a total of 6.4 GB/sec. At 1.4 GHz the numbers drop to a total of ~5 GB/sec. This is a 3.75 - 4x improvement. Time will tell if Apple has build a chipset and memory subsystem to fill the FSB.
I don't think it has to drop at all. I believe the 1.4GHz and 1.8GHz 970 CPU's will both use a fixed 450MHz external bus frequency, they are just using different integer multipliers (3x and 4x) to generate the core clock. That's my theory which fits with the mentioned clock rates (1.4, 1.8, 2.3 GHz)
Comments
Originally posted by JLL
When Apple previewed Jaguar at WWDC last year, you didn't get a free upgrade if you bought 10.1 after that day. . .
Just a thought: If Apple does begin selling new 970 equipped PowerMacs before Panther is ready, they may make an exception to their normal policy. Since these PowerMacs are 64-bit machines, Jaguar would be a temporary OS, since it would not run future 64-bit applications.
I could easily imagine Apple shipping a free copy of Panther to anyone who buys a 970 Mac early. It's almost a no brainer. If the hardware is ready much before the OS, Apple stands to make a lot of revenue from selling PowerMacs as soon as they are ready.
Originally posted by kupan787
The local news staitons would all do reports about it. Mentioning that Apple was holding a conference at the San Jose Convention Center, they would mention what was talked about.
I almost shat a brick this AM when I opened up my local newspaper and found this :
Originally posted by Rhumgod
I almost shat a brick this AM when I opened up my local newspaper and found this :
Not much goin' on in Greenbay these days, 'eh.
Originally posted by Bigc
Not much goin' on in Greenbay these days, 'eh.
Seriously!
This town, and state for that matter, is so conservative it is unreal. At the back of the local/state section there is usually one page dedicated to Business. I cannot remember the last time Apple made any news there. I think it was in the Sunday, two-page technology special section, that the flat panel iMac was mentioned. The impact of the iTunes Music Store is that large!
I don't know if this has any impact on the 970, but I thought I would let some of the outside world in here.
Originally posted by onlooker
IBM moves Power4 to 1.7 GHz IBM STORY
I don't know if this has any impact on the 970, but I thought I would let some of the outside world in here.
Cool.
Originally posted by Ompus
1. There will be no 970s in the powerbooks until IBM reaches 90 nm.
Why? The 970 has a lower power version that runs at 1.2 GHz, and puts out less wattage than the G4 in the current powerbooks. So why would they wiat for 90 nm? No need.
2. Until that time, the powerbook will have a speed bump and battery boost with the impending arrival of the 7457.
I wouldn't count on the 7457 seeing the light of day in any Apple product. Why is it any more believeable to say the 7457 will be in a Mac vs the 970? The lower power 970 can provide less wattage than the current G4 (what does the 7457 put out), so machines using it would run longer/cooler.
3. The current powermacs, emacs and iMacs will get 7457s and drop their prices by 25%.
Why? The eMacs and iMacs can ride the current G4 on up to 1.4GHz before switching to the 970. There is no need for the 7457 at all.
4. The 970 Macstation will have a price premium of 10% over the current 7455s.
The powermacs will move to all 970, no split machines, and will never see the 7457. It will not cost any more than the current configs. Apple is not about to raise their prices after havign just lowered them.
6. The 7457 will survive for another year in the iBook.
I say no. I bet GOBI will be in the iBooks, and they will never see a G4 ever. The GOBI processor is supposed to be a G3+SIMD, so if it can run altivec, and be low power and quick, there would be no need for the G4 any longer.
Originally posted by onlooker
IBM moves Power4 to 1.7 GHz IBM STORY
I don't know if this has any impact on the 970, but I thought I would let some of the outside world in here.
Probably not a whole lot on the 970, but it is nice to see that IBM is continuing pushing the edges...seeing as how they are the (main) supplier for Apple's CPU's in the near future.
I am curious to know how the process of moving to .09 microns is coming....
Originally posted by kupan787
First let me say that just like Ompus speculated, so am I.
And I whole heartedly agree with every one of your reasons. Apple will sack Moto quite soon. I would be surprised to see any of their gear in an Apple product by years end.
Originally posted by Rhumgod
And I whole heartedly agree with every one of your reasons. Apple will sack Moto quite soon. I would be surprised to see any of their gear in an Apple product by years end.
That would imply that the G5 will be in the PowerBook, eMac and iMac, or it would say that IBM will have a G4 replacement, a 32-bit PPC with AltiVec. If the latter were true, it would not need to support SMP for consumer and PowerBook.
Yes, The powerbook too. There is no other direction for the PowerBook to go. The 1.2Ghz 970 will be cooler than a 1.2Ghz G4. I doubt the PowerBooks could handle anything over 1Ghz anyways. Why do you think that the 17" did not get a chip anyfaster than the older 15", and why do you think the PowerMacs have so many fans to run the 1.42Ghz? The 970 is the only other course of action besides the 7457, which Moto said would not be out until early next year.
WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THE 970 is going to be so much hotter than the G4? Its a .13µ chip should be cooler really.
ok got to restart 10.2.6 just installed...gosh I haven't restarted...well since 10.2.5 lol
Originally posted by Algol
Just in case anyone hasn't noticed, Apple has just recently updated their whole product line except for the 15" PowerBook and the PowerMac.
Um, the Power Macs were upgraded AFTER the two new PowerBooks were announced.
Originally posted by snoopy
That would imply that the G5 will be in the PowerBook, eMac and iMac, or it would say that IBM will have a G4 replacement, a 32-bit PPC with AltiVec. If the latter were true, it would not need to support SMP for consumer and PowerBook.
GOBI
GOBI is a updated "g3" with SIMD, faster bus, and more.
The 970 will go in the towers, and powerbooks.
The iBooks will get GOBI.
The iMacs will either get faster G4s (they have 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 GHz parts they could use right now), and then move to the 970. Or the iMacs might just get a low power 970 in their next update.
The eMac was just updated, so the next update will probably be a low power 970, or a faster G4 part (again they have 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 parts).
None of the machines will move "down" to a GOBI, but the iBook will be moved up. It will never see a G4 (no need), and depending on where GOBI goes, might see a 970 down the road (way down the road). And maybe the GOBI will end up in something else (DLD?)
current Moto G4 FSB = 167Mb/s
pending IBM 970 FSB = 900Mb/s
six times the pipeline width/throughput, baby.
it ain't just a faster chip, it's also on a system that's no longer being choked... (to be fair, the G4 would continue to benefit from speed bumps were it not for the throttling limitation of the crappy Moto FSB which starves even the current G4 from its true performance)
expect major performance gains in anything that has to now been limited by the FSB... without even considering the faster CPU itself and it's effect on performance
buh bye MPX limitations. hello new bus.
Originally posted by kupan787
GOBI
GOBI is a updated "g3" with SIMD, faster bus, and more. . .
I had not heard about SIMD being in GOBI. If true, it is essentially a G4 replacement for single processor Macs. Do you have some more information on this?
. . . The iMacs will either get faster G4s (they have 1.2, 1.3, and 1.4 GHz parts they could use right now), and then move to the 970. Or the iMacs might just get a low power 970 in their next update. . .
The posting I replied to suggests that Apple will cut off Motorola as a supplier. If true, there would be no Motorola G4 parts for the iMacs and eMacs, so the G4 option you suggest does not apply. if the suggestion posted is false, than of course the G4 will still be a an option.
None of the machines will move "down" to a GOBI, but the iBook will be moved up. It will never see a G4 (no need), and depending on where GOBI goes, might see a 970 down the road (way down the road). And maybe the GOBI will end up in something else (DLD?)
If GOBI has SIMD as you say, it is no step down to put it in the iMac and eMac. That would surely be the end of Motorola for Apple. However, I am not convinced that GOBI has SIMD.
Originally posted by curiousuburb
current Moto G4 FSB = 167Mb/s
pending IBM 970 FSB = 900Mb/s
Where did you get these (incorrect) numbers? The current 167 MHz MPX bus has a throughput of ~1.33 GB/sec and the next version of the G4 apparently supports 200 MHz (~1.6 GB/sec). The 970's bus with a 1.8 GHz processor delivers 3.2 GB/sec read + 3.2 GB/sec write for a total of 6.4 GB/sec. At 1.4 GHz the numbers drop to a total of ~5 GB/sec. This is a 3.75 - 4x improvement. Time will tell if Apple has build a chipset and memory subsystem to fill the FSB.
Originally posted by snoopy
I had not heard about SIMD being in GOBI. If true, it is essentially a G4 replacement for single processor Macs. Do you have some more information on this?
Ok, it is not GOBI, but the 850:
PowerPC 850: Based on an extended G3 core (750/740) that will probably increase the pipeline to 10 stages or so, it will have 512KB L2 cache, 32bit core, made on 130nm process, at least 36bit memory addressing,and include Altivec. The bus will be a RapidIO (probably 2 16bit ports) and have a built-in memory controller for DDR-SDRAM. This will limit it's usage with SMP but considering the target market, this is not much of an issue. Power consumption will be a major design point. Expected: 4Q 03
The posting I replied to suggests that Apple will cut off Motorola as a supplier. If true, there would be no Motorola G4 parts for the iMacs and eMacs, so the G4 option you suggest does not apply. if the suggestion posted is false, than of course the G4 will still be a an option.
I would say that MOT might get cut off as a future chip maker, but not a future supplier at this time. The G4 could (note could) still be used as is (ie the 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 GHz parts). MOT wouldn't need to do any more work on it, jsut produce chips based on what they already have for the iMac and eMac. They are the only products that would need a G4 for the short-term. They could easily move to 970s (low power 970's) within a year of introduction.
If GOBI has SIMD as you say, it is no step down to put it in the iMac and eMac. That would surely be the end of Motorola for Apple.
It wouldn't be a step down (it has a 200MHz bus, and SIMD). But I don't think they would change chips twice so soon. Meaning go from G4 to GOBI to 970 in a year/year-and-a-half. My question is why switch these to GOBI? They could easily both go to the low power 970, running at 1.2/1.4 GHZ while the towers run at 1.6/1.8/2.0 GHz. heck, maybe the return of the fanless iMac?
However, I am not convinced that GOBI has SIMD.
See my above note.
Originally posted by kupan787
It wouldn't be a step down (it has a 200MHz bus, and SIMD). But I don't think they would change chips twice so soon. Meaning go from G4 to GOBI to 970 in a year/year-and-a-half. My question is why switch these to GOBI? They could easily both go to the low power 970, running at 1.2/1.4 GHZ while the towers run at 1.6/1.8/2.0 GHz. heck, maybe the return of the fanless iMac?
Two different classes of machine. The GOBI/850/whatever replaces the role of the G3 -- low power, really cheap, single processor systems only. The 970 might be low power compared to a Pentium4 or Athlon, but its still way too hot for the kind of portable and small machine uses that I suspect Apple would use it for. The PowerBooks may get the low end 970s, but the iBook will get the other.
Originally posted by Programmer
Where did you get these (incorrect) numbers? The current 167 MHz MPX bus has a throughput of ~1.33 GB/sec and the next version of the G4 apparently supports 200 MHz (~1.6 GB/sec). The 970's bus with a 1.8 GHz processor delivers 3.2 GB/sec read + 3.2 GB/sec write for a total of 6.4 GB/sec. At 1.4 GHz the numbers drop to a total of ~5 GB/sec. This is a 3.75 - 4x improvement. Time will tell if Apple has build a chipset and memory subsystem to fill the FSB.
I don't think it has to drop at all. I believe the 1.4GHz and 1.8GHz 970 CPU's will both use a fixed 450MHz external bus frequency, they are just using different integer multipliers (3x and 4x) to generate the core clock. That's my theory which fits with the mentioned clock rates (1.4, 1.8, 2.3 GHz)