970... Which is the better option?

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
If rumors are correct and Panther will come later what is the best option....



1.) Ship the 970s "crippled" with what apparently is Smeagol, just an updated 10.2.7 with basic functionality



or



2.) Ship the 970s with a beta Panther that is 64 bit aware and optimized for the 970.





it seems as if panther final will only come 1-2 months after the 970s so I would imagine Apple could get a realtively stable build going for the 970s....



maybe they could offer the option of having the beta installed
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 94
    leonisleonis Posts: 3,427member
    I think people are taking the word "cripped" too seriously
  • Reply 2 of 94
    daverdaver Posts: 496member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Leonis

    I think people are taking the word "cripped" too seriously



    Exactly. Nothing says 10.2.7 won't be any less capable than previous releases of Jaguar; on the contrary, support for 64-bit memory addressing and whatever other new hardware the Power Mac 970 includes should be very nice.



    The version of System 7.1 that shipped with the first Power Macs is a good point of reference. It didn't have the new features (or bloat, heh) of 7.5, but it worked just fine.
  • Reply 3 of 94
    pscatespscates Posts: 5,847member
    Can someone - IN A PLAIN ENGLISH WAY THAT DOESN'T GO OVER MY HEAD - explain to me a) 64-bit and b) how it relates to Panther and the 970.



    What's all this talk about them not matching up initially?







    Is the machine too advanced for the OS, or the other way around? I don't know, I'm asking.
  • Reply 4 of 94
    daverdaver Posts: 496member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pscates

    Can someone - IN A PLAIN ENGLISH WAY THAT DOESN'T GO OVER MY HEAD - explain to me a) 64-bit and b) how it relates to Panther and the 970.



    What's all this talk about them not matching up initially?







    Is the machine too advanced for the OS, or the other way around? I don't know, I'm asking.






    The 970 is capable of dealing with more memory than the current release of OS X can handle.



    If Apple wants its shiny new hardware to perform as well as it should, we'll need a new version of OS X that knows the ins and outs of the 970.



    Simple?
  • Reply 5 of 94
    pscatespscates Posts: 5,847member
    So is Panther capable of this, I'm guessing? It's a 64-bit OS?







    Question: does Adobe (and whoever else) have to update THEIR stuff too, or is it just an OS-level kinda thing?
  • Reply 6 of 94
    gamblorgamblor Posts: 446member
    Quote:

    Question: does Adobe (and whoever else) have to update THEIR stuff too, or is it just an OS-level kinda thing?



    Yup. If the benefit of recompiling is great enough (like a 50% or higher boost), I'd imagine they'd be recompiling & releasing patches rather quickly... Allowing a competitor to be able to make unflattering comparisons with your app could be disasterous in the short term ("PhotoeditXYZ is 70% faster than Photoshop!").
  • Reply 7 of 94
    leonisleonis Posts: 3,427member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pscates

    So is Panther capable of this, I'm guessing? It's a 64-bit OS?







    Question: does Adobe (and whoever else) have to update THEIR stuff too, or is it just an OS-level kinda thing?




    Apps have to be recompiled or rewritten to take advantage the 64bit thing....but 64bit won't speed things up AFAIK....only provide a chance to allocate more than 4GB of RAM to the applications.



    I really don't think Adobe will port their app to 64bit apps, not only they are the lazy ass (look at that current apps....almost none of them are multithreaded), it's the gain in performance doesn't justify the time spend on doing this task.
  • Reply 8 of 94
    pscatespscates Posts: 5,847member
    Okay, well cool. Thanks. I know more now than I did 20 minutes ago. That's usually a good thing!



    One final wrap-up: so this whole 64-bit thing is just memory-related? That's it? You can put in a lot of RAM or assign a ton to apps or whatever? That's all the talk/hype, regarding "64-bit"?



    Surely I'm missing something more...
  • Reply 9 of 94
    junkyard dawgjunkyard dawg Posts: 2,801member
    People buy Powermacs for work. They don't wan't a beta version of OS X on them, they want a highly stable, consumer-ready version of OS X. Running Photoshop 20% faster isn't very useful if the OS keeps crashing and forcing one to do their work over again.



    Even with beta as only an option, it would contribute in some way to Apple's reputation. It's bad enough to have a reputation for being slow, so the last thing Apple wants is to tarnish the so-far excellent reputation OS X has for stability.
  • Reply 10 of 94
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,409member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pscates

    Can someone - IN A PLAIN ENGLISH WAY THAT DOESN'T GO OVER MY HEAD - explain to me a) 64-bit and b) how it relates to Panther and the 970.



    What's all this talk about them not matching up initially?







    Is the machine too advanced for the OS, or the other way around? I don't know, I'm asking.




    Imagine a 32-bit machine as a 2 door car. Imagine a 64-bit machine as a 4 door car. Now imagine that you have a driver's license that restricts you to carrying only yourself and 1 passenger. That's what running Jaguar on a 970 is like... you've only ever had 2 door cars so while now you've got one that has these extra doors, it doesn't do anything for you until you get a new license. It just so happens that the new car (in addition to having more doors) is roomier, faster, more fuel efficient and cheaper so its well worth having even though you can't use all the doors (yet). In a couple of months you'll get a new license and then you can unlock the doors and bring more people on board (a lot more -- while the two doors only have 2 seats, the rear doors have many many many seats).



  • Reply 11 of 94
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg

    People buy Powermacs for work. They don't wan't a beta version of OS X on them, they want a highly stable, consumer-ready version of OS X. Running Photoshop 20% faster isn't very useful if the OS keeps crashing and forcing one to do their work over again.



    Even with beta as only an option, it would contribute in some way to Apple's reputation. It's bad enough to have a reputation for being slow, so the last thing Apple wants is to tarnish the so-far excellent reputation OS X has for stability.




    it wouldnt be the first time and I would bet you good money that any beta of Panther will be light years ahead of the disgusting mess 10.0 was
  • Reply 12 of 94
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    10.2.7 specifically for the 970 is a good idea. It would help crush some bugs before Panther 1.0. It would reinforce the general impression that Apple works to improve the functionality and speed of old hardware by optimizing future releases of hardware.



    If anyone here has any experience with Win2K SP3, you'll know how horrible Microsoft is. It makes Win2K an OS that can run on a machine from three years ago into an OS that has to run on a machine from the past year. That's horrible.



    If 10.2.7 is more stable than 10.2.0, then they should use that stepping stone.
  • Reply 13 of 94
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    ...Panther will be light years ahead of the disgusting mess 10.0 was



    Side note: Why did 10.0 feel worse to me than DP4??!?
  • Reply 14 of 94
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pscates





    . . . One final wrap-up: so this whole 64-bit thing is just memory-related? That's it? You can put in a lot of RAM or assign a ton to apps or whatever? That's all the talk/hype, regarding "64-bit"?



    Surely I'm missing something more...






    The amount of memory the OS works with is only part of the story. 64 bits is the size of the registers, not 32 bits. This means the 970 can handle much bigger numbers in a single processor step. So, applications that use large numbers will run a lot faster once they are converted to 64 bit applications. For some things, 64 bits makes a big difference. I'm guessing that engineering, science, high end video special effects and editing and CAD are a few areas that will benefit. Many of us may never use 64 bits. Applications that do not benefit will likely stay 32 bits forever.
  • Reply 15 of 94
    kupan787kupan787 Posts: 586member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg

    People buy Powermacs for work. They don't wan't a beta version of OS X on them, they want a highly stable, consumer-ready version of OS X. Running Photoshop 20% faster isn't very useful if the OS keeps crashing and forcing one to do their work over again.



    Even with beta as only an option, it would contribute in some way to Apple's reputation. It's bad enough to have a reputation for being slow, so the last thing Apple wants is to tarnish the so-far excellent reputation OS X has for stability.




    What the hell are you talking about? Why do you assume that 10.2.7 would be a "beta" OS that would keep "crashing and forcing one to do their work over again".
  • Reply 16 of 94
    moazammoazam Posts: 136member
    Quote:



    I really don't think Adobe will port their app to 64bit apps, not only they are the lazy ass (look at that current apps....almost none of them are multithreaded), it's the gain in performance doesn't justify the time spend on doing this task.




    Photoshop will probably not be converted to 64bit for a while. It's really not needed. Unless you're dealing with single images that are bigger than 4gb I suppose...



    Anyways, just making an app 64bit doesn't make it faster, actually, it could easily make it *SLOWER*. 64bits just means you got more numbers to deal with.



    Sun UltraSparc machines are 64bit, and Solaris is 64bit, but most apps for it are still 32bit, because they just don't need to be 64bit. Apps like Oracle/PeopleSoft, etc. are 64bit for a reason, but apps like Mozilla just don't need it.



    The real big deal with Apple having a next-generation 64bit CPU is that it gives them room to grow. Depending on the chip, it could mean that Apple has the possibility to go to dual-core CPUs in 1-2 years (ok, this is Apple, 2+ years..I dunno.) Dual-core is basically 2 CPUs within 1 CPU, such as IBMs new Power chip, which is very fast.
  • Reply 17 of 94
    yomofoyomofo Posts: 35member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Programmer

    Imagine a 32-bit machine as a 2 door car. Imagine a 64-bit machine as a 4 door car. Now imagine that you have a driver's license that restricts you to carrying only yourself and 1 passenger. That's what running Jaguar on a 970 is like... you've only ever had 2 door cars so while now you've got one that has these extra doors, it doesn't do anything for you until you get a new license. It just so happens that the new car (in addition to having more doors) is roomier, faster, more fuel efficient and cheaper so its well worth having even though you can't use all the doors (yet). In a couple of months you'll get a new license and then you can unlock the doors and bring more people on board (a lot more -- while the two doors only have 2 seats, the rear doors have many many many seats).







    holy shnike. that's the best damn explanation i've ever seen or even heard about. excellent work, programmer.
  • Reply 18 of 94
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,409member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by snoopy

    The amount of memory the OS works with is only part of the story. 64 bits is the size of the registers, not 32 bits. This means the 970 can handle much bigger numbers in a single processor step. So, applications that use large numbers will run a lot faster once they are converted to 64 bit applications. For some things, 64 bits makes a big difference. I'm guessing that engineering, science, high end video special effects and editing and CAD are a few areas that will benefit. Many of us may never use 64 bits. Applications that do not benefit will likely stay 32 bits forever.



    The larger address space is most of the story. The 64-bit integer registers aren't really a big deal. Most heavily numeric applications will use double precision floating point -- it is typically faster and more flexible and the same software will work on 32-bit machines.
  • Reply 19 of 94
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,409member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by yomofo

    holy shnike. that's the best damn explanation i've ever seen or even heard about. excellent work, programmer.



    Glad you like it. Just remember that it is only an analogy and that while useful for grasping a concept it is dangerous to look too deep and try to draw conclusions based on the analogy and not the original concept.
  • Reply 20 of 94
    moazammoazam Posts: 136member
    Pretty good, but I'd have to say that:



    32bit machine = 4 door

    64bit machine = Hummer H2 Stretched Limo



    So yeah, for now, you can deal with 4 doors with the 32bit OS, but once 64bit comes in, you'll be able to fit your family, friends, neighbors, etc.



    So think of it as a 4 door car which will morph into a Hummer H2 Stretched Limo soon..



    :P



    Quote:

    Originally posted by Programmer

    Imagine a 32-bit machine as a 2 door car. Imagine a 64-bit machine as a 4 door car. Now imagine that you have a driver's license that restricts you to carrying only yourself and 1 passenger. That's what running Jaguar on a 970 is like... you've only ever had 2 door cars so while now you've got one that has these extra doors, it doesn't do anything for you until you get a new license. It just so happens that the new car (in addition to having more doors) is roomier, faster, more fuel efficient and cheaper so its well worth having even though you can't use all the doors (yet). In a couple of months you'll get a new license and then you can unlock the doors and bring more people on board (a lot more -- while the two doors only have 2 seats, the rear doors have many many many seats).







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