1. I proposed it as an OPTION... ya know... like at the store you could choose between 10.2.7 or Beta Panther
2. Mac OS X Public Beta?
3. Apple often relies on beta software. Perhaps not the main OS but beta software shipping on hardware is far from a new thing
No, you don't understand.
While Apple does use beta software (e.g. Safari), there is a PROFOUND difference between beta software and a beta OS. Here's an example:
Joe user goes to his favorite web page in Safari which fails to load. Joe user says to himself "oh well, I'll just have to use IE for that page". Joe user loads IE and accesses the page after submitting a bug to Apple.
Joe user then gets his new 970 based machine with its beta OS. Joe user perfroms some routine task that all of a sudden fails. What is he going to do? Hopefully, the bug isn't to deep in the OS and there is some kind of a workaround. If there is no workaround, then Joe user waits four months for Panther to be released, all the while cursing his beta copy that keeps him from getting work done.
Sure, maybe Apple will give out beta copies of Panther to its developers at WWDC. This would be a smart move. Speaking as a software developer, let me tell you the difference between a developer machine and your machine:
Developers do not fully use the software that they are developing
This means that if the software is broken, then it is no big deal (just pull up the source and fix it). The program that I work on has something like 3 million lines of C++ code. I am familiar with about 100,000 of those lines. The big difference is that unlike my users, I don't actually use my software to maintain data or to get things done. I just write the program- I don't use it for eight hours a day. As a developer, I expect my software to have glitches, to not work, to need optimizing, etc. End users actually use software to get things done, they maintain data, etc. When we give out beta copies of our software, we give them out to our larges clients who understand that the beta version is not to be used for anything other than to get an idea of where the software will be going in the next version. If a potential beta candidate actually wants to get work done on beta software, then we generally qestion their sanity and refuse to give them a beta (or we chide them when they complain about how bugs keep them from performing thier workflow).
Developers are different than regular users and developers will have a computer set aside for, well, basically destruction (in the worst case if everything goes poorly). Users would want to use the beta software to get things done and would respond horribly if their OS crashed, burned, and took other programs with it. Never ship a beta OS to anyone who wants to use it for anything. Apple would burn their users and tarnish their excellent reputation. Never ever ever ship a beta OS to end users (to developers, yes, but never to end users!).
Sorry to rant so much about all this, but the idea of shipping a beta OS to end users is well, bad. Very bad.
64bit machine = Porsche V8 Twin-Turbo Cayenne (new 4 door SUV for those who aren't familiar)
Damn thing is faster than all but the newer 911's and looks good too.
No, I would say that a 32 bit OS is a Jeep liberty (a small SUV) and a 64 bit OS is a Ford Explorer. Both can go as fast, but the Ford can carry more. If you have to pack out the explorer, then it compares well to the Jeep because it carries more (the jeep needs to make two trips). If you are just commuting to work, then there is no difference because either vehicle can carry you just fine.
A 64 bit beta OS would be an Explorer with firestone tires- a great ride until you suddenly flip over.
I think people are taking the word "cripped" too seriously
Yeah. Agreed. Wrong word entirely. If you call 10.2.7 on a 970 a 'cripple' then Matsu described the G4 comparably well. I don't believe by any stretch of the imagination that the 970 will underperform a G4 on Jaguar. But not having an optimised compiled OS for 970 will surely prevent it from reaching its full potential to some degree or another. My bets is straight out the gate, the 970 will thump the current top G4.
I think Dr. Boar summed it up.
And I did like Prog's car analogy. But I also also with PSCates, enough with the cars already!
There's no way Apple is going to throw several months of sales away because of a given performance hit or whatever. Apple, by the 'insider rumors feels confident enough to ship it without Panther. That, in itself, should tell you about how confident Apple are about its powers over the current G4 Towers.
Hell, they shipped 'X' wayyy before it was ready and it was far less ready than the 970 appears to be.
Apple want to ship the fastest they can. It makes sense for their bottom line. And I they'd be nuts to wait.
Hell, they shipped 'X' wayyy before it was ready and it was far less ready than the 970 appears to be.
Apple want to ship the fastest they can. It makes sense for their bottom line. And I they'd be nuts to wait.
I agree whole-heartedly. Sure, the 970 on Jaguar will not have all of the added bells-and-whistles that the 970 on Panther would have. However, if everyone remembers, the 970 is backwards-compatable with 32-bit applications.... including OSes.
I don't care what some would say, with the (much) larger bus and faster pipelines, the 970 would trounce the G4 in most, if not all, tasks.
It is going to be a fun time to be an Apple fan...
I'm posting this here as to not start another 970 thread.
Mac-Whispers has chimed in saying the single processor PM (I presume) Motherboards are in full production along with PowerBook Motherboards, and the Dual processor ones could go into production at any time.
I hate waiting! I've been waiting for the Dual 970 Forever! Put it in production already! I've got money 4 U!!!!!!!!
The 970 is not just dropping out of the sky this month. Apple has certainly had evaluation units of one sort or another on which they could develop software for a long time. It would make sense that 10.2.6 could probably pretty much run (if it had the drivers for the ancillary hardware). It is my speculation that 10.2.7 would be required mostly for matching the OS to the new motherboards with all of their options. This is not to say that the code is optimized for maximum performance on a 970, just that it is likely that it will run.
I agree with the others, it is likely that the 970 will thrash the G4 starting a little over 12 days from now.
1. I proposed it as an OPTION... ya know... like at the store you could choose between 10.2.7 or Beta Panther
2. Mac OS X Public Beta?
3. Apple often relies on beta software. Perhaps not the main OS but beta software shipping on hardware is far from a new thing
That reference to OS X public beta isn't relevant.
OS X PB was intended for curious power users, for Mac users who understood their computers inside and out, and hungered for anything new. One had to specially purchase OS X PB, and even after it was installed, OS 9 was the primary OS. Nobody used OS X PB for important work, and how could they since there were virtually no apps available for it? OS X was new and clearly beta software.
Today, OS X is not new, it is not beta software. Including a beta of panther with new systems, even as an option, would expose a much larger portion of Mac users to a beta OS, and not all of them would know enough about it to understand that it should be treated as a toy, and nothing more. And with all these new Macs optioned to run a beta OS, Apple's reputation is in danger.
And what would be the point? With OS X PB, the point was to get feedback on the GUI, and to squash bugs. Apple no longer needs such a large beta testing program for Panther. The ONLY reason for a Panther beta would be for Mac "powerusers" to tinker around with it to see how fast it will run their favorite waReZ. Is it worth risking the reputation of OS X as a highly stable OS for such a small gain? The people who truly need the extra performance wont even benefit from a Panther beta--the 3d artists, audio engineers/musicians, FCP jocks.
Finally, there aren't even any apps that have been recompiled with GCC 3.3 optimized for the PPC 970!
I think Apple actually has a strategy with the 970 timeline, and they aren't releasing the Powermac G5s before panther just because IBM finished them early. Apple wants to get the 970 out as early as possible so that developers have an incentive to optimize their apps for it. By releasing the G5s before panther, Apple ensures that when Panther is finally ready, there will also be 970-optimized apps available as well.
The alternative would be to release the G5s and panther concomitantly, but then there would be a wait for 970-optimized apps to trickle in. Apple's strategy ensures full performance as soon as possible (as long as those bastards give us dual G5s!).
you said very little and added very little in a lot of words. nice job.
I'm gonna go on the record and say Apple won't ship the 970 without Panther or OS level 64 bit support from the start. Whether that can be added to 10.2 in an update i dont know.
Considering that timing IS everything and that the 970 will (hopefully) be a major turning point in mac history I find it hard to believe that Apple would do something as rumored. It's half-assed and poor management.
Work faster, I don't care. We've been waiting much longer for the 970 than anything else, Apple should have had Panther lined up for it.
you said very little and added very little in a lot of words. nice job.
No need to be an asshole. When I give reasons why I think you're ideas are wrong, it doesn't mean that I'm attacking you. We can disagree and it's ok--after all, it's just a computer.
I'm gonna go on the record and say Apple won't ship the 970 without Panther or OS level 64 bit support from the start.
They still can release 10.2.7 that supports booting new Macs without adding 64-bit APIs or anything, saying that everyone who bought a PowerMac 970 will get Panther for free (or for the cost of CD shipment). They may and may not. It depends on whether they are ready to sell new Macs right now and on their will to start selling them ASAP. If they think it's OK to start sooner than later, then why not? QuarkXPress 6 is out and there is nobody left to blame.
Technically, 10.2.7 would just have a revised kernel with drivers supporting new hardware. No optimizations for PPC 970. No true 64-bit support. Just new hardware for those who can't wait two months more.
and if, "ifs and buts, were beer and nuts we would have ourselves one heck of a party." Should is irrelevant in this case.
if apple does not release a 970 machine with 10.2.7 at wwdc and waits until panther then guess what? Apple will be going a whole quarter without a sellable powermac machine. (Assuming panther is not delayed.)
A wwdc announcment will kill sales(no really kill them not like others are saying there are no sales even though there are.) and if reports are true the channel is emptying of g4s.
The math of profits trumps what apple "should" do any day of the week, month or quarter.
There is one at work every day, and I think its ugly. Looks a lot like the Volvo SUV (also at work, in the parking lot). I wish Porsche had never made it -- stick to what they know and are known for.
No need to be an asshole. When I give reasons why I think you're ideas are wrong, it doesn't mean that I'm attacking you. We can disagree and it's ok--after all, it's just a computer.
Comments
Originally posted by applenut
1. I proposed it as an OPTION... ya know... like at the store you could choose between 10.2.7 or Beta Panther
2. Mac OS X Public Beta?
3. Apple often relies on beta software. Perhaps not the main OS but beta software shipping on hardware is far from a new thing
No, you don't understand.
While Apple does use beta software (e.g. Safari), there is a PROFOUND difference between beta software and a beta OS. Here's an example:
Joe user goes to his favorite web page in Safari which fails to load. Joe user says to himself "oh well, I'll just have to use IE for that page". Joe user loads IE and accesses the page after submitting a bug to Apple.
Joe user then gets his new 970 based machine with its beta OS. Joe user perfroms some routine task that all of a sudden fails. What is he going to do? Hopefully, the bug isn't to deep in the OS and there is some kind of a workaround. If there is no workaround, then Joe user waits four months for Panther to be released, all the while cursing his beta copy that keeps him from getting work done.
Sure, maybe Apple will give out beta copies of Panther to its developers at WWDC. This would be a smart move. Speaking as a software developer, let me tell you the difference between a developer machine and your machine:
Developers do not fully use the software that they are developing
This means that if the software is broken, then it is no big deal (just pull up the source and fix it). The program that I work on has something like 3 million lines of C++ code. I am familiar with about 100,000 of those lines. The big difference is that unlike my users, I don't actually use my software to maintain data or to get things done. I just write the program- I don't use it for eight hours a day. As a developer, I expect my software to have glitches, to not work, to need optimizing, etc. End users actually use software to get things done, they maintain data, etc. When we give out beta copies of our software, we give them out to our larges clients who understand that the beta version is not to be used for anything other than to get an idea of where the software will be going in the next version. If a potential beta candidate actually wants to get work done on beta software, then we generally qestion their sanity and refuse to give them a beta (or we chide them when they complain about how bugs keep them from performing thier workflow).
Developers are different than regular users and developers will have a computer set aside for, well, basically destruction (in the worst case if everything goes poorly). Users would want to use the beta software to get things done and would respond horribly if their OS crashed, burned, and took other programs with it. Never ship a beta OS to anyone who wants to use it for anything. Apple would burn their users and tarnish their excellent reputation. Never ever ever ship a beta OS to end users (to developers, yes, but never to end users!).
Sorry to rant so much about all this, but the idea of shipping a beta OS to end users is well, bad. Very bad.
Originally posted by AirSluf
OT: just another fun little tweak:
32bit machine = Ford Taurus
64bit machine = Porsche V8 Twin-Turbo Cayenne (new 4 door SUV for those who aren't familiar)
Damn thing is faster than all but the newer 911's and looks good too.
No, I would say that a 32 bit OS is a Jeep liberty (a small SUV) and a 64 bit OS is a Ford Explorer. Both can go as fast, but the Ford can carry more. If you have to pack out the explorer, then it compares well to the Jeep because it carries more (the jeep needs to make two trips). If you are just commuting to work, then there is no difference because either vehicle can carry you just fine.
A 64 bit beta OS would be an Explorer with firestone tires- a great ride until you suddenly flip over.
Apple isn't gonna unleash a beta version of Panther to us.
It won't happen, don't worry.
If they even considered it - it would be like OS X Beta:
Optional.
(Well unless you're one of those people who consider all x.0 releases beta until they reach x.1
I think people are taking the word "cripped" too seriously
Yeah. Agreed. Wrong word entirely. If you call 10.2.7 on a 970 a 'cripple' then Matsu described the G4 comparably well. I don't believe by any stretch of the imagination that the 970 will underperform a G4 on Jaguar. But not having an optimised compiled OS for 970 will surely prevent it from reaching its full potential to some degree or another. My bets is straight out the gate, the 970 will thump the current top G4.
I think Dr. Boar summed it up.
And I did like Prog's car analogy. But I also also with PSCates, enough with the cars already!
There's no way Apple is going to throw several months of sales away because of a given performance hit or whatever. Apple, by the 'insider rumors feels confident enough to ship it without Panther. That, in itself, should tell you about how confident Apple are about its powers over the current G4 Towers.
Hell, they shipped 'X' wayyy before it was ready and it was far less ready than the 970 appears to be.
Apple want to ship the fastest they can. It makes sense for their bottom line. And I they'd be nuts to wait.
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Hell, they shipped 'X' wayyy before it was ready and it was far less ready than the 970 appears to be.
Apple want to ship the fastest they can. It makes sense for their bottom line. And I they'd be nuts to wait.
I agree whole-heartedly. Sure, the 970 on Jaguar will not have all of the added bells-and-whistles that the 970 on Panther would have. However, if everyone remembers, the 970 is backwards-compatable with 32-bit applications.... including OSes.
I don't care what some would say, with the (much) larger bus and faster pipelines, the 970 would trounce the G4 in most, if not all, tasks.
It is going to be a fun time to be an Apple fan...
Good pull...
Mac-Whispers has chimed in saying the single processor PM (I presume) Motherboards are in full production along with PowerBook Motherboards, and the Dual processor ones could go into production at any time.
I hate waiting! I've been waiting for the Dual 970 Forever! Put it in production already! I've got money 4 U!!!!!!!!
I agree with the others, it is likely that the 970 will thrash the G4 starting a little over 12 days from now.
Originally posted by applenut
1. I proposed it as an OPTION... ya know... like at the store you could choose between 10.2.7 or Beta Panther
2. Mac OS X Public Beta?
3. Apple often relies on beta software. Perhaps not the main OS but beta software shipping on hardware is far from a new thing
That reference to OS X public beta isn't relevant.
OS X PB was intended for curious power users, for Mac users who understood their computers inside and out, and hungered for anything new. One had to specially purchase OS X PB, and even after it was installed, OS 9 was the primary OS. Nobody used OS X PB for important work, and how could they since there were virtually no apps available for it? OS X was new and clearly beta software.
Today, OS X is not new, it is not beta software. Including a beta of panther with new systems, even as an option, would expose a much larger portion of Mac users to a beta OS, and not all of them would know enough about it to understand that it should be treated as a toy, and nothing more. And with all these new Macs optioned to run a beta OS, Apple's reputation is in danger.
And what would be the point? With OS X PB, the point was to get feedback on the GUI, and to squash bugs. Apple no longer needs such a large beta testing program for Panther. The ONLY reason for a Panther beta would be for Mac "powerusers" to tinker around with it to see how fast it will run their favorite waReZ. Is it worth risking the reputation of OS X as a highly stable OS for such a small gain? The people who truly need the extra performance wont even benefit from a Panther beta--the 3d artists, audio engineers/musicians, FCP jocks.
Finally, there aren't even any apps that have been recompiled with GCC 3.3 optimized for the PPC 970!
I think Apple actually has a strategy with the 970 timeline, and they aren't releasing the Powermac G5s before panther just because IBM finished them early. Apple wants to get the 970 out as early as possible so that developers have an incentive to optimize their apps for it. By releasing the G5s before panther, Apple ensures that when Panther is finally ready, there will also be 970-optimized apps available as well.
The alternative would be to release the G5s and panther concomitantly, but then there would be a wait for 970-optimized apps to trickle in. Apple's strategy ensures full performance as soon as possible (as long as those bastards give us dual G5s!).
I'm gonna go on the record and say Apple won't ship the 970 without Panther or OS level 64 bit support from the start. Whether that can be added to 10.2 in an update i dont know.
Considering that timing IS everything and that the 970 will (hopefully) be a major turning point in mac history I find it hard to believe that Apple would do something as rumored. It's half-assed and poor management.
Work faster, I don't care. We've been waiting much longer for the 970 than anything else, Apple should have had Panther lined up for it.
Originally posted by applenut
you said very little and added very little in a lot of words. nice job.
No need to be an asshole. When I give reasons why I think you're ideas are wrong, it doesn't mean that I'm attacking you. We can disagree and it's ok--after all, it's just a computer.
Originally posted by applenut
I'm gonna go on the record and say Apple won't ship the 970 without Panther or OS level 64 bit support from the start.
They still can release 10.2.7 that supports booting new Macs without adding 64-bit APIs or anything, saying that everyone who bought a PowerMac 970 will get Panther for free (or for the cost of CD shipment). They may and may not. It depends on whether they are ready to sell new Macs right now and on their will to start selling them ASAP. If they think it's OK to start sooner than later, then why not? QuarkXPress 6 is out and there is nobody left to blame.
Technically, 10.2.7 would just have a revised kernel with drivers supporting new hardware. No optimizations for PPC 970. No true 64-bit support. Just new hardware for those who can't wait two months more.
Apple should have had Panther lined up for it.
and if, "ifs and buts, were beer and nuts we would have ourselves one heck of a party." Should is irrelevant in this case.
if apple does not release a 970 machine with 10.2.7 at wwdc and waits until panther then guess what? Apple will be going a whole quarter without a sellable powermac machine. (Assuming panther is not delayed.)
A wwdc announcment will kill sales(no really kill them not like others are saying there are no sales even though there are.) and if reports are true the channel is emptying of g4s.
The math of profits trumps what apple "should" do any day of the week, month or quarter.
Originally posted by Placebo
I just saw a Cayenne yestarday.
There is one at work every day, and I think its ugly. Looks a lot like the Volvo SUV (also at work, in the parking lot). I wish Porsche had never made it -- stick to what they know and are known for.
posted by Junkyard Dawg
No need to be an asshole. When I give reasons why I think you're ideas are wrong, it doesn't mean that I'm attacking you. We can disagree and it's ok--after all, it's just a computer.
It's not just a computer, It's my state of mind!