I just wanted to see what (if anything) was underneath
And besides, do you feel persecuted because we critise your "normality"/"objective" persecution of homosexuals?
no, it's not that at all---this whole thing is bogus----giant just happened to "remember" who I "really" was only after I said something that really rubbed him the wrong way.
Don't get me wrong he has always been rude (and I've been fairly patient with that) calling me 12 years old and a highschool student, etc., etc. But now it seems I have stopped being the dumb kid and have started to be this dreaded straw man from Alaska.
no, it's not that at all---this whole thing is bogus----giant just happened to "remember" who I "really" was only after I said something that really rubbed him the wrong way.
Don't get me wrong he has always been rude (and I've been fairly patient with that) calling me 12 years old and a highschool student, etc., etc. But now it seems I have stopped being the dumb kid and have started to be this dreaded straw man from Alaska.
????
I think it would be better to stay on topic.
Actually, it was hassan that pointed it out.
As for staying on topic, that would be great, but the in every one of your posts is a little distracting, as is the massive image. The polite thing to do is shrink it or link it.
Jewish culture is the culture of the Jews, including the secular, agnostic and atheist Jews.
The Jews are a people having a specifically national religion and. The religion is called ?Judaism? because it is practiced by people from a place called Judea, after one of the tribes of that people.
The cultures born out of the religions Islam and Christianity while these were the defining common traits of their communities, are indeed Islamic and Christian cultures.
Other than that, since Israel is basically a progressive democratic country (despite rumors to the contrary), it follows that it is more tolerant of minority sexual-orientation groups than its neighbours, or even a few other progressive democracies.
Other than that, since Israel is basically a progressive democratic country (despite rumors to the contrary), it follows that it is more tolerant of minority sexual-orientation groups than its neighbours, or even a few other progressive democracies.
Well thats not anything new. When I was in Israel I met a very liberal attitude towards subcultures. Even some european countries could learn from Israel
The cultures born out of the religions Islam and Christianity while these were the defining common traits of their communities, are indeed Islamic and Christian cultures.
Many of our priciples of social organization here in the western world are directly decended from their greco-roman foundations. While christianity is tacked on top of it and influences it, our political, social, philosophical and scientific roots pre-date it.
Many of our priciples of social organization here in the western world are directly decended from their greco-roman foundations. While christianity is tacked on top of it and influences it, our political, social, philosophical and scientific roots pre-date it.
That they owed to the cultures preceding them, does not refute that there were a Christian culture and an Islamic one. So, saying they were merely religions is inaccurate.
Or do you object now with my supporting your argument when it happens to be accurate?
Eh? Why should I do that?
Israel is on many levels a great place and I plan on going back someday. Hopefully I will visit Tel Aviv as one of four-five european cities as preparation for my final paper in Uni (comparative study on the conditions for and forming of local self rule "from beneah").
That they owed to the cultures preceding them, does not refute that there were a Christian culture and an Islamic one. So, saying they were merely religions is inaccurate.
I have to disagree. While the definition of culture is maleable, as I said, our political, social, philosophical and scientific systems pre-date christianity. While christianity as an institution certainly influenced them over time, it's easy to trace back any concept back to these non-christian civilizations, and greece and rome in particular. These foundations are more than alive and well in today's world.
So while religion is certainly an influence in culture, it is not accurate to say that religion is by default the defining feature of a culture.
The difference between religion and culture becomes more significant in modern times with the globalization of religion.
For the purposes of this discussion, however, it is clear that since the roots of western culture are strongly planted in civilizations that openly encouraged homosexuality, it is inaccurate to say that they are less viable then Christianity. I would say that it is clear that the ideas generated out of those civilizations are more profound and have greater effect than those of the Christian religion.
That they owed to the cultures preceding them, does not refute that there were a Christian culture and an Islamic one. So, saying they were merely religions is inaccurate.
I have to disagree. While the definition of culture is maleable, as I said, our political, social, philosophical and scientific systems pre-date christianity. While christianity as an institution certainly influenced them over time, it's easy to trace back any concept back to these non-christian civilizations, and greece and rome in particular. These foundations are more than alive and well in today's world.
In medieval time the culture of Western and Central Europe was Western-Christian with Germanic ingredients, and no longer Graeco-Roman, even if it owed much to that predecessor; and ths that culture can be accuartely called Christian culture.
Its contemporay culture in the Roman Empire of Orient, or Byzantine, was also bound to Christianity, but only as part of the empire which defined that culture, hence Byzantine culture.
As for the culture of the Abbasside Califate, or of the Umayyad Califate of Córdoba in Al-Andalus, it was undoubtedly Islamic.
Quote:
So while religion is certainly an influence in culture, it is not accurate to say that religion is by default the defining feature of a culture.
I did not say religion is the defining feature, by default, of a culture, but Islam is the foundation of Islamic culture while Christianity is the foundation of Christian culture.
Quote:
The difference between religion and culture becomes more significant in modern times with the globalization of religion.
The importance of religion over culture has been declining regularly over several centuries, and Christian culture has been largely fused in the modern, secular, variants of Western culture, itself fusing in what is indeed becoming a global culture.
Islamic culture has yet to undergo such process.
Quote:
For the purposes of this discussion, however, it is clear that since the roots of western culture are strongly planted in civilizations that openly encouraged homosexuality, it is inaccurate to say that they are less viable then Christianity. I would say that it is clear that the ideas generated out of those civilizations are more profound and have greater effect than those of the Christian religion.
Homosexuality exists in all cultures, so does baldness. That some cultures are more tolerant than others to some phenomena does not tell anything about their respective viability, although some might find one more in line with their personal preferences and thus give it more validity, but that is a subjective choice.
But that does not undo the historical reality of an Islamic culture, a Christian culture and a Hindu culture for that matter.
Israel is on many levels a great place and I plan on going back someday. Hopefully I will visit Tel Aviv as one of four-five european cities as preparation for my final paper in Uni (comparative study on the conditions for and forming of local self rule "from beneah").
"Homosexuality has been practiced numerous cultures throughout history." So, this somehow makes homosexuality okay and moral? What about murder, theft, adultery, rape, abuse, slavery? They too have been present in every culture since the beginning of time. Does that make them moral? First you must define the basis of your morality.
This thread is about Gays/Lesbians in the Middle East. Islam declares homosexuality immoral. Most Middle Eastern countries are populated by Muslim?s and governed by Islamic law. It is a religious issue to a religious people and a logical application of their faith.
How exactly do you substantiate calling them wrong? What is the basis for calling them "backwards"?
This thread is about Gays/Lesbians in the Middle East. Islam declares homosexuality immoral. Most Middle Eastern countries are populated by Muslim?s and governed by Islamic law. It is a religious issue to a religious people and a logical application of their faith.
How exactly do you substantiate calling them wrong? What is the basis for calling them "backwards"?
Islamic culture in the Middle East doesn't exercise much restraint in applying its own cultural standards to the West, in deciding that we are decadent, un-Godly, worthy only of death unless we convert to Islam, etc. etc. We're the Great Satan.
So, while there's certainly a cultural bias in the concept of what's "backward" or "foreward" -- why not apply our own Western standards when judging the Middle East? Even pretending to
Here are a few things I'll unashamedly use my own cultural bias to call "forward" (with the intended implication that the opposite of such things is "backward"):
(1) Separation of Church and State: I think it's clear from history that both government and religion suffer when the two are combined. Religion suffers because religion becomes the vehicle for upward social mobility, for obtaining power. The ambitious corrupt religion by merely paying lip service to it, using it as a vehicle for personal gain. Government becomes cruel and irresponsive to it's people's needs through the toxic combination of corruption and self-righteous belief in it's own divine morality.
(2) Respect for individual liberties: I can think of no more civilizing impulse than to believe that your fellow citizens should be as free as they can be to live their own lives, with the force of law mainly limited to keeping one person's freedom from trampling on anothers, and maybe some limited demands on service to society as a whole, such as paying taxes.
The US isn't as strong on these points as I'd like, though it's fairly close on (1), and way better than the Middle East on (2). I feel quite comfortable saying that the Islamic world today is very backwards.
Comments
Originally posted by ena
Exactly, all you are missing are the torches and hayforks.
Oh that hurt
I just wanted to see what (if anything) was underneath
And besides, do you feel persecuted because we critise your "normality"/"objective" persecution of homosexuals?
Originally posted by Anders
Oh that hurt
I just wanted to see what (if anything) was underneath
And besides, do you feel persecuted because we critise your "normality"/"objective" persecution of homosexuals?
no, it's not that at all---this whole thing is bogus----giant just happened to "remember" who I "really" was only after I said something that really rubbed him the wrong way.
Don't get me wrong he has always been rude (and I've been fairly patient with that) calling me 12 years old and a highschool student, etc., etc. But now it seems I have stopped being the dumb kid and have started to be this dreaded straw man from Alaska.
????
I think it would be better to stay on topic.
Originally posted by ena
no, it's not that at all---this whole thing is bogus----giant just happened to "remember" who I "really" was only after I said something that really rubbed him the wrong way.
Don't get me wrong he has always been rude (and I've been fairly patient with that) calling me 12 years old and a highschool student, etc., etc. But now it seems I have stopped being the dumb kid and have started to be this dreaded straw man from Alaska.
????
I think it would be better to stay on topic.
Actually, it was hassan that pointed it out.
As for staying on topic, that would be great, but the
Originally posted by ena
giant, you are a case!
If thats the case then you are a twenty feet container.
PS.: Shrink it or link it
Originally posted by giant
And the first three of yours are religions.
(Talking of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic).
Jewish culture is the culture of the Jews, including the secular, agnostic and atheist Jews.
The Jews are a people having a specifically national religion and. The religion is called ?Judaism? because it is practiced by people from a place called Judea, after one of the tribes of that people.
The cultures born out of the religions Islam and Christianity while these were the defining common traits of their communities, are indeed Islamic and Christian cultures.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Other than that, since Israel is basically a progressive democratic country (despite rumors to the contrary), it follows that it is more tolerant of minority sexual-orientation groups than its neighbours, or even a few other progressive democracies.
As established in post #2 in this thread:
Well thats not anything new. When I was in Israel I met a very liberal attitude towards subcultures. Even some european countries could learn from Israel
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
The cultures born out of the religions Islam and Christianity while these were the defining common traits of their communities, are indeed Islamic and Christian cultures.
Many of our priciples of social organization here in the western world are directly decended from their greco-roman foundations. While christianity is tacked on top of it and influences it, our political, social, philosophical and scientific roots pre-date it.
Originally posted by Anders
As established in post #2 in this thread:
Which was well noted.
Or do you object now with my supporting your argument when it happens to be accurate?
Originally posted by giant
Many of our priciples of social organization here in the western world are directly decended from their greco-roman foundations. While christianity is tacked on top of it and influences it, our political, social, philosophical and scientific roots pre-date it.
That they owed to the cultures preceding them, does not refute that there were a Christian culture and an Islamic one. So, saying they were merely religions is inaccurate.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Which was well noted.
Or do you object now with my supporting your argument when it happens to be accurate?
Eh? Why should I do that?
Israel is on many levels a great place and I plan on going back someday. Hopefully I will visit Tel Aviv as one of four-five european cities as preparation for my final paper in Uni (comparative study on the conditions for and forming of local self rule "from beneah").
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
That they owed to the cultures preceding them, does not refute that there were a Christian culture and an Islamic one. So, saying they were merely religions is inaccurate.
I have to disagree. While the definition of culture is maleable, as I said, our political, social, philosophical and scientific systems pre-date christianity. While christianity as an institution certainly influenced them over time, it's easy to trace back any concept back to these non-christian civilizations, and greece and rome in particular. These foundations are more than alive and well in today's world.
So while religion is certainly an influence in culture, it is not accurate to say that religion is by default the defining feature of a culture.
The difference between religion and culture becomes more significant in modern times with the globalization of religion.
For the purposes of this discussion, however, it is clear that since the roots of western culture are strongly planted in civilizations that openly encouraged homosexuality, it is inaccurate to say that they are less viable then Christianity. I would say that it is clear that the ideas generated out of those civilizations are more profound and have greater effect than those of the Christian religion.
Originally posted by giant
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
That they owed to the cultures preceding them, does not refute that there were a Christian culture and an Islamic one. So, saying they were merely religions is inaccurate.
I have to disagree. While the definition of culture is maleable, as I said, our political, social, philosophical and scientific systems pre-date christianity. While christianity as an institution certainly influenced them over time, it's easy to trace back any concept back to these non-christian civilizations, and greece and rome in particular. These foundations are more than alive and well in today's world.
In medieval time the culture of Western and Central Europe was Western-Christian with Germanic ingredients, and no longer Graeco-Roman, even if it owed much to that predecessor; and ths that culture can be accuartely called Christian culture.
Its contemporay culture in the Roman Empire of Orient, or Byzantine, was also bound to Christianity, but only as part of the empire which defined that culture, hence Byzantine culture.
As for the culture of the Abbasside Califate, or of the Umayyad Califate of Córdoba in Al-Andalus, it was undoubtedly Islamic.
So while religion is certainly an influence in culture, it is not accurate to say that religion is by default the defining feature of a culture.
I did not say religion is the defining feature, by default, of a culture, but Islam is the foundation of Islamic culture while Christianity is the foundation of Christian culture.
The difference between religion and culture becomes more significant in modern times with the globalization of religion.
The importance of religion over culture has been declining regularly over several centuries, and Christian culture has been largely fused in the modern, secular, variants of Western culture, itself fusing in what is indeed becoming a global culture.
Islamic culture has yet to undergo such process.
For the purposes of this discussion, however, it is clear that since the roots of western culture are strongly planted in civilizations that openly encouraged homosexuality, it is inaccurate to say that they are less viable then Christianity. I would say that it is clear that the ideas generated out of those civilizations are more profound and have greater effect than those of the Christian religion.
Homosexuality exists in all cultures, so does baldness. That some cultures are more tolerant than others to some phenomena does not tell anything about their respective viability, although some might find one more in line with their personal preferences and thus give it more validity, but that is a subjective choice.
But that does not undo the historical reality of an Islamic culture, a Christian culture and a Hindu culture for that matter.
Originally posted by Anders
Eh? Why should I do that?
Israel is on many levels a great place and I plan on going back someday. Hopefully I will visit Tel Aviv as one of four-five european cities as preparation for my final paper in Uni (comparative study on the conditions for and forming of local self rule "from beneah").
Just keep on the safe side of things while there.
This thread is about Gays/Lesbians in the Middle East. Islam declares homosexuality immoral. Most Middle Eastern countries are populated by Muslim?s and governed by Islamic law. It is a religious issue to a religious people and a logical application of their faith.
How exactly do you substantiate calling them wrong? What is the basis for calling them "backwards"?
Originally posted by Fangorn
What is the basis for calling them "backwards"?
While the term "backwards" might not be correct, I think forcing people to live under religious law is what is considered 'wrong' by some people.
Originally posted by Outsider
Let me just say, I fully support more lesbians in the middle east.
So how do you support them ?
Originally posted by Fangorn
This thread is about Gays/Lesbians in the Middle East. Islam declares homosexuality immoral. Most Middle Eastern countries are populated by Muslim?s and governed by Islamic law. It is a religious issue to a religious people and a logical application of their faith.
How exactly do you substantiate calling them wrong? What is the basis for calling them "backwards"?
Islamic culture in the Middle East doesn't exercise much restraint in applying its own cultural standards to the West, in deciding that we are decadent, un-Godly, worthy only of death unless we convert to Islam, etc. etc. We're the Great Satan.
So, while there's certainly a cultural bias in the concept of what's "backward" or "foreward" -- why not apply our own Western standards when judging the Middle East? Even pretending to
Here are a few things I'll unashamedly use my own cultural bias to call "forward" (with the intended implication that the opposite of such things is "backward"):
(1) Separation of Church and State: I think it's clear from history that both government and religion suffer when the two are combined. Religion suffers because religion becomes the vehicle for upward social mobility, for obtaining power. The ambitious corrupt religion by merely paying lip service to it, using it as a vehicle for personal gain. Government becomes cruel and irresponsive to it's people's needs through the toxic combination of corruption and self-righteous belief in it's own divine morality.
(2) Respect for individual liberties: I can think of no more civilizing impulse than to believe that your fellow citizens should be as free as they can be to live their own lives, with the force of law mainly limited to keeping one person's freedom from trampling on anothers, and maybe some limited demands on service to society as a whole, such as paying taxes.
The US isn't as strong on these points as I'd like, though it's fairly close on (1), and way better than the Middle East on (2). I feel quite comfortable saying that the Islamic world today is very backwards.