Okay, so I dropped the CPU clock to 2.8Ghz, added in a modem (hey, the PMG5 has it), dropped the video card to an nVidia 5800 Ultra 128MB, added a Serial ATA 80GB drive, and it's still $1896.
Consider that this is probably about the midrange PMG5 equivalent, at most, and you've got Apple being more than competitive at $1799.
Heck, $1899 is still in line.
*shrug* Hey, Apple's back in the ballgame, performance wise. If they can keep it within reason, price wise... ka-ching.
ergo, the Apple machine is 100% more expensive than the PC
don't be a twit
Speak clearly.
B is 100% more expensive than A != A is 100% less expensive than B.
Simple 5th grade math + 5th grade English skills.
So, care to try and find a namebrand box somewhere at 50% the Apple price with the same expected performance? Really, this is an honest question... I'm not sure it *can* be done after Monday.
A *cheaper* box? Heck yeah. But comparing the cheapest Wintel box to the cheapest Mac isn't any more meaningful than comparing the cheapest Ford to the cheapest BMW. Ya gotta compare on features and performance.
Are we sure of what the bus speed is going to be on the "Fast" model G5? That "up to 1ghz" bothers me, because it feels like Apple's making the top end model really spectacular and the lower end models not so much.
Quote:
It's ATA-133, not Serial ATA.
Optical audio? Only on the Deluxe version of the mobo, it seems.
100bT Enet, not Gigabit.
Right, but if you go back to what I originally posted, it has:
And it's roughly equivalent to a P4 2.5ghz from a couple benchmarks I looked at. Gigabit is nice, but how many people use it, not to mention that you have to have a $100+ switch just to make use of it. I really have to question how many people use optical audio in & out.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that Apple offers these features, but they either need to make their low end even a couple hundred dollars cheaper, or they need to take the LCD off the iMac and bring its specs up to snuff. They have absolutely no offering in the mid-range is my only complaint.
What about us that need a little bit more than the $800 eMac, don't want to "throw away" our LCD if we buy an iMac, and can't afford $2100 for a PowerMac? Since I'm buying a laptop for the next 3-4 years, it doesn't matter much to me right now, but all the same, I'd like to see Apple fix this problem they have. Just my opinion.
Are we sure of what the bus speed is going to be on the "Fast" model G5? That "up to 1ghz" bothers me, because it feels like Apple's making the top end model really spectacular and the lower end models not so much.
Bus is 1/2 clock speed of CPU, by definition with the 970.
1.6GHz = 800MHz bus -> 2.0GHz = 1GHz bus. The bus scales with the CPU clock. Slick, eh?
Quote:
Right, but if you go back to what I originally posted, it has:
And it's roughly equivalent to a P4 2.5ghz from a couple benchmarks I looked at. Gigabit is nice, but how many people use it, not to mention that you have to have a $100+ switch just to make use of it. I really have to question how many people use optical audio in & out.
Hey, how many people are going to use that nVidia card to anything like its actual potential?? It's a gamer box... ie, high performance, and the assumed pricing for the PMG5 is *still* within reason. Freaky, huh?
And, that sucker's going to be bus-starved, like the G4s have been for the last few years. Heck, the bus is everything, at least that's what the Wintel folks have been telling us for two years now... so it's gotta work both ways, right?
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that Apple offers these features, but they either need to make their low end even a couple hundred dollars cheaper, or they need to take the LCD off the iMac and bring its specs up to snuff. They have absolutely no offering in the mid-range is my only complaint.
Agree with you there. I'd expect that to be taken care of soon with a move to 970 based iMacs.
Quote:
What about us that need a little bit more than the $800 eMac, don't want to "throw away" our LCD if we buy an iMac, and can't afford $2100 for a PowerMac? Since I'm buying a laptop for the next 3-4 years, it doesn't matter much to me right now, but all the same, I'd like to see Apple fix this problem they have. Just my opinion.
No problem, I can't disagree with you on that. There are holes in the product line now... but I'd *expect* them to be smoothed out as soon as possible.
Like I said, I'll do the hardware bake-offs on Monday, when we know the specs. I'll even just stick to Dell, because I'm too lazy to go into the even lower budget deals out there.
Then everyone will argue that nothing can matched up correctly, and I'll be labelled a troll, and so it goes.....everyone will take one technical this, or one software that, and in doing so, 'prove' that Apples are price-competive (on the desktop) with PCs.
But if you want to keep on believing that PC buyers spend $1500 or so on entry level machines, sans monitor, then by all means continue to do so. If the superiority kick is worth the $300-500 (or more) I'll bet I can come up with in savings on the PC, then by all means do so.
Anyway, we'll see where the $$$$ falls on Monday, ok?
B is 100% more expensive than A != A is 100% less expensive than B.
Simple 5th grade math + 5th grade English skills.
So, care to try and find a namebrand box somewhere at 50% the Apple price with the same expected performance? Really, this is an honest question... I'm not sure it *can* be done after Monday.
A *cheaper* box? Heck yeah. But comparing the cheapest Wintel box to the cheapest Mac isn't any more meaningful than comparing the cheapest Ford to the cheapest BMW. Ya gotta compare on features and performance.
It's not a question of English at all, it's a question of your basic understanding of math: even if I had meant it the other way, there's still no way that something that has no price can be compared as a ratio to something with a price, since dividing by zero is by definition, undefined. The fact that you don't understand ratios (which is what a percentage is) is not my problem.
Like I said, I'll do the hardware bake-offs on Monday, when we know the specs. I'll even just stick to Dell, because I'm too lazy to go into the even lower budget deals out there.
Then everyone will argue that nothing can matched up correctly, and I'll be labelled a troll, and so it goes.....everyone will take one technical this, or one software that, and in doing so, 'prove' that Apples are price-competive (on the desktop) with PCs.
But if you want to keep on believing that PC buyers spend $1500 or so on entry level machines,
The low end PMG5 is *NOT* an entry level machine. Jebbus, how hard is that to understand? The eMac is an entry level machine. The lowest iMac is an entry level machine. They're competitive on performance with Celeron based entry level Wintel machines.
Quote:
sans monitor, then by all means continue to do so. If the superiority kick is worth the $300-500 (or more) I'll bet I can come up with in savings on the PC, then by all means do so.
Anyway, we'll see where the $$$$ falls on Monday, ok?
You're on. I doubt it can be done, especially at Dell. Remember, the motherboard technology counts *significantly*. After all, isn't that what the Wintel folks have been telling us for the past couple of years? (Which, BTW, I agree with. I haven't been able to recommend a G4 tower to anyone for general purpose use in over a year, maybe two.)
Find a comparable bus based mobo, with a comparable CPU, and comparable features, then come back to us on price. I'm honestly curious to see if it can be done. For the first time in over two years, I'm not sure it can... and that's pretty damned sweet.
It's not a question of English at all, it's a question of your basic understanding of math: even if I had meant it the other way, there's still no way that something that has no price can be compared as a ratio to something with a price, since dividing by zero is by definition, undefined. The fact that you don't understand ratios (which is what a percentage is) is not my problem.
But if you want to keep on believing that PC buyers spend $1500 or so on entry level machines, sans monitor, then by all means continue to do so.
To call the low end PowerMac G5 "entry-level" is ignorant. There are more than a few people on the board that are upset with the current pricing schemes, from what I've read, but it's not because they feel the new systems will underperform for what they're charging, it's because they don't have a viable alternative sans the gigabit ethernet, optical audio, serial ata, superdrive (?), etc.
Apple could certainly find a huge market for a $999 "iMac" that didn't have the built in LCD, was powered by a non-crippled G5, left out the optical and gigabit, and had superdrive as an option. I'm sure that with a few tweaks and slightly slower speed (Maybe 1.2ghz G5), they could get the system to $999 and they wouldn't even be able to keep the damn things in stock.
The idea that an all-in-one covers the needs of EVERY consumer is ridiculous. If anything, it covers the needs of a very FEW consumers.
But back to the original point, the "Fast" model, if at about $1499, is in no way entry level, nor overpriced for what it is. I'd like to see it cheaper, but I don't think the price is unreasonable.
btw Kickacha, I was tooling around the web and found this:
The low end PMG5 is *NOT* an entry level machine. Jebbus, how hard is that to understand? The eMac is an entry level machine. The lowest iMac is an entry level machine. They're competitive on performance with Celeron based entry level Wintel machines.
It is entry level if you want any decent expansion options and a choice of display(s).
I have to disagree with applenut here, in that using that sort of definition, you could re-label "entry level" any way you want...."it is entry level if you want a 1.6 ghz G5", or "it is entry level if you need a dual-processor cpu".
For better or worse (and I think orse), Apple has chosen to make their low end ("consumer") models AIO, and their pro models towers. I think it is pure semantics to quibble over how you choose to define "entry level".
And Fred....how did that "100% cheaper" thing work again?
Dell also makes horribly built PC's. I've known 3 people who've bought Dell's (laptops and desktops) within the past couple years and they've completely stopped working. Where I used to work, the company went exclusively with Dell Optiplex desktops for the first year, and they were all breaking down so much that they had a stack of defective ones in the IT closet and moved over to Compaq.
Apple is better compared to Alienware, Micron or PowerSpec imo.
actually, I seem to recall you said "100% cheaper", which actually doesn't make sense. I guess you just misspoke - no harm in that, just odd that you find it so difficult to admit.
Seems like your example machine is a good place to start when comparing on Monday (although it is nowhere near the putative specs for the G5, it sure seems like a reasonable starting point to build up a comparable machine).
Of course, the real difficulty with this sort of comparison is the one regularly referred to here - what do you do about inequality of apps/OS? That is, if someone shows me a machine that is faster and cheaper than my current computer, but it only runs Linux (I know, but this is a hypothetical), then I don't really care if it is twice as fast at half the cost (or "100% cheaper", to use your terminology )
But, you CAN end up with a definitive "you can buy a machine which is X% faster for Y% less" using this methodology, and while it will never answer the question of "which is a better value/should I buy?", at least it is a good starting point for discussion.
And I would DEARLY love to be wrong. If Apple hit me at $1000 with a fully expandable modern generation machine, I like Dear Leader Steve, will shit my pants.
Heck, if they get to $1200, I'd be amazed. IMESHO, that's about where you separate the casual buyer (me) from the power buyer (some other dude).
All doubts and misgivings will be allayed or confirmed on Monday......
Well, I confess your sentence from page 3 is VERY difficult to parse:
"but I guarantee that a you can find every price point occupied by Apple to get whipped by it's price point counterpart in PCland by 20, 50 or even 100% in terms of dollars"
But when you say "whipped by...20. 50 or even 100%", and you are speaking in dollars....I cannot manage to interpret that in a way consistent with "100% more expensive" (although I don't doubt that was what you actually MEANT to say).
"whipped by 50%" should mean that the competitor is 50% faster, cheaper, pretier, or whatever........right?
Minor grammar/math error, señor - trust me, it happens to everyone.
IMESHO, that's about where you separate the casual buyer (me) from the power buyer (some other dude).
Even in their wildest dreams, Apple isn't going to appeal to the "casual" buyer (if by "casual", you mean "average"). The best Apple could dare to dream about would be capturing 10% of the market-- that's 1 in 10 PC purchasers. "Average" users need not apply.
Comments
Consider that this is probably about the midrange PMG5 equivalent, at most, and you've got Apple being more than competitive at $1799.
Heck, $1899 is still in line.
*shrug* Hey, Apple's back in the ballgame, performance wise. If they can keep it within reason, price wise... ka-ching.
Originally posted by I, Fred
Apple machine costs x
PC costs 1/2 x
ergo, the Apple machine is 100% more expensive than the PC
don't be a twit
Speak clearly.
B is 100% more expensive than A != A is 100% less expensive than B.
Simple 5th grade math + 5th grade English skills.
So, care to try and find a namebrand box somewhere at 50% the Apple price with the same expected performance? Really, this is an honest question... I'm not sure it *can* be done after Monday.
A *cheaper* box? Heck yeah. But comparing the cheapest Wintel box to the cheapest Mac isn't any more meaningful than comparing the cheapest Ford to the cheapest BMW. Ya gotta compare on features and performance.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Where's the bus speed info on the mobo? (Ah, here: http://www.alienware.com/Configurato...x?ItemId=11153) 400/333MHz?!? Oh man.
Are we sure of what the bus speed is going to be on the "Fast" model G5? That "up to 1ghz" bothers me, because it feels like Apple's making the top end model really spectacular and the lower end models not so much.
It's ATA-133, not Serial ATA.
Optical audio? Only on the Deluxe version of the mobo, it seems.
100bT Enet, not Gigabit.
Right, but if you go back to what I originally posted, it has:
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 128MB 8x AGP w/DVI & S-Video
512MB DDR SDRAM PC-3200 - 2 x 256MB Module
And it's roughly equivalent to a P4 2.5ghz from a couple benchmarks I looked at. Gigabit is nice, but how many people use it, not to mention that you have to have a $100+ switch just to make use of it. I really have to question how many people use optical audio in & out.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that Apple offers these features, but they either need to make their low end even a couple hundred dollars cheaper, or they need to take the LCD off the iMac and bring its specs up to snuff. They have absolutely no offering in the mid-range is my only complaint.
What about us that need a little bit more than the $800 eMac, don't want to "throw away" our LCD if we buy an iMac, and can't afford $2100 for a PowerMac? Since I'm buying a laptop for the next 3-4 years, it doesn't matter much to me right now, but all the same, I'd like to see Apple fix this problem they have. Just my opinion.
Originally posted by Gakusei
Are we sure of what the bus speed is going to be on the "Fast" model G5? That "up to 1ghz" bothers me, because it feels like Apple's making the top end model really spectacular and the lower end models not so much.
Bus is 1/2 clock speed of CPU, by definition with the 970.
1.6GHz = 800MHz bus -> 2.0GHz = 1GHz bus. The bus scales with the CPU clock. Slick, eh?
Right, but if you go back to what I originally posted, it has:
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 128MB 8x AGP w/DVI & S-Video
512MB DDR SDRAM PC-3200 - 2 x 256MB Module
And it's roughly equivalent to a P4 2.5ghz from a couple benchmarks I looked at. Gigabit is nice, but how many people use it, not to mention that you have to have a $100+ switch just to make use of it. I really have to question how many people use optical audio in & out.
Hey, how many people are going to use that nVidia card to anything like its actual potential?? It's a gamer box... ie, high performance, and the assumed pricing for the PMG5 is *still* within reason. Freaky, huh?
And, that sucker's going to be bus-starved, like the G4s have been for the last few years. Heck, the bus is everything, at least that's what the Wintel folks have been telling us for two years now... so it's gotta work both ways, right?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that Apple offers these features, but they either need to make their low end even a couple hundred dollars cheaper, or they need to take the LCD off the iMac and bring its specs up to snuff. They have absolutely no offering in the mid-range is my only complaint.
Agree with you there. I'd expect that to be taken care of soon with a move to 970 based iMacs.
What about us that need a little bit more than the $800 eMac, don't want to "throw away" our LCD if we buy an iMac, and can't afford $2100 for a PowerMac? Since I'm buying a laptop for the next 3-4 years, it doesn't matter much to me right now, but all the same, I'd like to see Apple fix this problem they have. Just my opinion.
No problem, I can't disagree with you on that.
Then everyone will argue that nothing can matched up correctly, and I'll be labelled a troll, and so it goes.....everyone will take one technical this, or one software that, and in doing so, 'prove' that Apples are price-competive (on the desktop) with PCs.
But if you want to keep on believing that PC buyers spend $1500 or so on entry level machines, sans monitor, then by all means continue to do so. If the superiority kick is worth the $300-500 (or more) I'll bet I can come up with in savings on the PC, then by all means do so.
Anyway, we'll see where the $$$$ falls on Monday, ok?
Originally posted by Kickaha
Speak clearly.
B is 100% more expensive than A != A is 100% less expensive than B.
Simple 5th grade math + 5th grade English skills.
So, care to try and find a namebrand box somewhere at 50% the Apple price with the same expected performance? Really, this is an honest question... I'm not sure it *can* be done after Monday.
A *cheaper* box? Heck yeah. But comparing the cheapest Wintel box to the cheapest Mac isn't any more meaningful than comparing the cheapest Ford to the cheapest BMW. Ya gotta compare on features and performance.
It's not a question of English at all, it's a question of your basic understanding of math: even if I had meant it the other way, there's still no way that something that has no price can be compared as a ratio to something with a price, since dividing by zero is by definition, undefined. The fact that you don't understand ratios (which is what a percentage is) is not my problem.
Care to keep digging?
Originally posted by I, Fred
Like I said, I'll do the hardware bake-offs on Monday, when we know the specs. I'll even just stick to Dell, because I'm too lazy to go into the even lower budget deals out there.
Then everyone will argue that nothing can matched up correctly, and I'll be labelled a troll, and so it goes.....everyone will take one technical this, or one software that, and in doing so, 'prove' that Apples are price-competive (on the desktop) with PCs.
But if you want to keep on believing that PC buyers spend $1500 or so on entry level machines,
The low end PMG5 is *NOT* an entry level machine. Jebbus, how hard is that to understand? The eMac is an entry level machine. The lowest iMac is an entry level machine. They're competitive on performance with Celeron based entry level Wintel machines.
sans monitor, then by all means continue to do so. If the superiority kick is worth the $300-500 (or more) I'll bet I can come up with in savings on the PC, then by all means do so.
Anyway, we'll see where the $$$$ falls on Monday, ok?
You're on. I doubt it can be done, especially at Dell. Remember, the motherboard technology counts *significantly*. After all, isn't that what the Wintel folks have been telling us for the past couple of years? (Which, BTW, I agree with. I haven't been able to recommend a G4 tower to anyone for general purpose use in over a year, maybe two.)
Find a comparable bus based mobo, with a comparable CPU, and comparable features, then come back to us on price. I'm honestly curious to see if it can be done. For the first time in over two years, I'm not sure it can... and that's pretty damned sweet.
Originally posted by I, Fred
It's not a question of English at all, it's a question of your basic understanding of math: even if I had meant it the other way, there's still no way that something that has no price can be compared as a ratio to something with a price, since dividing by zero is by definition, undefined. The fact that you don't understand ratios (which is what a percentage is) is not my problem.
Care to keep digging?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
*sigh* Oh, you're too much fun.
Come back with a price.
Originally posted by I, Fred
But if you want to keep on believing that PC buyers spend $1500 or so on entry level machines, sans monitor, then by all means continue to do so.
To call the low end PowerMac G5 "entry-level" is ignorant. There are more than a few people on the board that are upset with the current pricing schemes, from what I've read, but it's not because they feel the new systems will underperform for what they're charging, it's because they don't have a viable alternative sans the gigabit ethernet, optical audio, serial ata, superdrive (?), etc.
Apple could certainly find a huge market for a $999 "iMac" that didn't have the built in LCD, was powered by a non-crippled G5, left out the optical and gigabit, and had superdrive as an option. I'm sure that with a few tweaks and slightly slower speed (Maybe 1.2ghz G5), they could get the system to $999 and they wouldn't even be able to keep the damn things in stock.
The idea that an all-in-one covers the needs of EVERY consumer is ridiculous. If anything, it covers the needs of a very FEW consumers.
But back to the original point, the "Fast" model, if at about $1499, is in no way entry level, nor overpriced for what it is. I'd like to see it cheaper, but I don't think the price is unreasonable.
btw Kickacha, I was tooling around the web and found this:
http://www.powerspec.com/systems/sys...selection=9340
3ghz P4, 1gb RAM
6 USB 2.0, 3 Firewire 400
Further specs on the page, but $1499...pretty good and PowerSpec is a good brand of PC's imo (I own a P4 1.6ghz from them).
Originally posted by Kickaha
The low end PMG5 is *NOT* an entry level machine. Jebbus, how hard is that to understand? The eMac is an entry level machine. The lowest iMac is an entry level machine. They're competitive on performance with Celeron based entry level Wintel machines.
It is entry level if you want any decent expansion options and a choice of display(s).
Originally posted by applenut
It is entry level if you want any decent expansion options and a choice of display(s).
ding, ding, ding
tell him what he's won.....
For better or worse (and I think orse), Apple has chosen to make their low end ("consumer") models AIO, and their pro models towers. I think it is pure semantics to quibble over how you choose to define "entry level".
And Fred....how did that "100% cheaper" thing work again?
Fish
anyway, just so we have a baseline model for the big price war showdown, come monday:
Dell Dimension 4600 Series
Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.40GHz
533MHz front side bus
512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 333MHz
64MB DDR NVIDIA_ GeForce4 MX? Graphics Car
60GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
Dell® 2-button scroll mouse
Dell Gigabit Ethernet
56K PCI Data Fax Modem
48x CD-RW/ DVD Combo Drive
Integrated 5.1 Audio
Altec Lansing® ADA215 Speakers
WordPerfect® Productivity Pack with Quicken New User Edition
Dell SecurityCenter by McAfee
Dell Jukebox powered by MUSICMATCH
Dell Picture Studio
Year Limited Warranty plus 1 Year At-Home Service\t \t
6 Months of America Online Membership Included\t \t
Save $100 with mail-in rebate. Price shown before rebate.
Belkin SurgeMaster Gold - 10 Outlet with Coax (for Broadband)
at $947 ($847 after rebate)
It matches or beats the equivalent Apple entry level G4 ("Fast" @ $1499) on a piece by piece basis, AFAICT.
Naturally, on Monday, I'll adjust upwards from this model until it matches the new Apple as bast I can, and then we'll see where we stand.
Apple is better compared to Alienware, Micron or PowerSpec imo.
actually, I seem to recall you said "100% cheaper", which actually doesn't make sense. I guess you just misspoke - no harm in that, just odd that you find it so difficult to admit.
Seems like your example machine is a good place to start when comparing on Monday (although it is nowhere near the putative specs for the G5, it sure seems like a reasonable starting point to build up a comparable machine).
Of course, the real difficulty with this sort of comparison is the one regularly referred to here - what do you do about inequality of apps/OS? That is, if someone shows me a machine that is faster and cheaper than my current computer, but it only runs Linux (I know, but this is a hypothetical), then I don't really care if it is twice as fast at half the cost (or "100% cheaper", to use your terminology
But, you CAN end up with a definitive "you can buy a machine which is X% faster for Y% less" using this methodology, and while it will never answer the question of "which is a better value/should I buy?", at least it is a good starting point for discussion.
Fish
And I would DEARLY love to be wrong. If Apple hit me at $1000 with a fully expandable modern generation machine, I like Dear Leader Steve, will shit my pants.
Heck, if they get to $1200, I'd be amazed. IMESHO, that's about where you separate the casual buyer (me) from the power buyer (some other dude).
All doubts and misgivings will be allayed or confirmed on Monday......
"but I guarantee that a you can find every price point occupied by Apple to get whipped by it's price point counterpart in PCland by 20, 50 or even 100% in terms of dollars"
But when you say "whipped by...20. 50 or even 100%", and you are speaking in dollars....I cannot manage to interpret that in a way consistent with "100% more expensive" (although I don't doubt that was what you actually MEANT to say).
"whipped by 50%" should mean that the competitor is 50% faster, cheaper, pretier, or whatever........right?
Minor grammar/math error, señor - trust me, it happens to everyone.
Fish
IMESHO, that's about where you separate the casual buyer (me) from the power buyer (some other dude).
Even in their wildest dreams, Apple isn't going to appeal to the "casual" buyer (if by "casual", you mean "average"). The best Apple could dare to dream about would be capturing 10% of the market-- that's 1 in 10 PC purchasers. "Average" users need not apply.