Applenut is right. Plenty of pros have 3-4 drives. A raid card and two striped drivers in addition to the main drive is pretty standard stuff when it comes to semi-pro, pro, and enthusiast set ups. It is the way to do video. Though really high end pro's all use external storage, it's very convenient just to have all the stuff on the machine (in addition to externally). When you want to bang something up real quick, you just dump it into the machine and go, less fuss, back-up to the external storage later. I suppose that with 8GB of RAM, you can negate the expense of RAID by just working with stuff in RAM, but 4-8GB fo RAM don't exactly come cheap either.
Even if we're talking just straight storage, 3-4 drive bays is pretty standard. Between our two PC's we have 4 opticals and 5 HDD's, all internal. Granted, both PC's have less than 250GB of storage, but the point is that we bought extra storage as we needed it and it became affordable, and however big 250, 300, 500 may seem today, we'll have a way to use it all up tommorow. Because of the extra space, I can still plug in another 2 drives on the newer machine (that with 2 drives has more storage than the older machine with 3) and it doesn't even cost me the price of an extra controller. I got a free one bundled with an 80GB drive I bought.
Applenut is right in that it's just another hidden cost, the wholoe point of towers is that you don't need to have lotsa external periphs plugged in. You pay more for the tower so that you don't have to pay for enclosures/externals every time you want to add something.
[/moderator suck up mode]
In truth, I can excuse the lack of a second optical bay. Superdrives are nearly there in terms of speed. 16X CDr isn't bad, the next rev should take them to 8x DVD-r and 24x CDr, and that's plenty fast. You don't gain as much as you think from 48x plus speeds, since that's not linear across the entire surface of the disc. A 24X drive will spit out a disc in 3 mins, an uber speed 40x plus drive will produce it in about 2. Neither is instantaneous, and both are fast enough -- you won't notice waiting a minute longer. Reliability and quiet are more important than utimate CD-r speed.
I have a question. Will external FW400 or FW800 drives be slower than internal drives? That would be my primary concern as a Pro. Having a neat desktop would be second. Maybe third.
I think Apple is catering for tomorrows pro-user, who wants FireWire devices and fewer but larger internal devices.
We're not all there yet, many of us do use many internal drives and appreciate dual optical bays but shortly as our working process changes we'll move into the G5's way of doing things.
I agree that the G5 has been scaled back, and unfortunately so. But this is a Rev. A release. The 2.0GHz pieces run very hot, and need those gargantuan heatsinks; Apple increased the size of the tower, but apparently didn't want to increase it that much more...for whatever reason.
I doubt it was to piss people off. As with the removal of the drop-down door (DDD), I'm sure there's a reason for it (though I don't know what that is), because Apple wouldn't want to do it just because they could. If I had to guess, it was probably a price consideration and/or a heating issue (i.e., increasing the size would have made cooling more difficult). Apple probably cut every non-speed corner they could to get the high-end below $3,000.
I'm sure Apple recognizes the need for and popularity of a second full-size removable-media drive bay and more internal expansion (and the DDD), or they wouldn't have advertised those features in previous models. All I can say is: if internal expansion is a necessity for you, you're screwed for the time being.
However, when I think about it--rather than just insulting people--I see hope. Why? Every rational reason Apple neutered the G5 tower's expansion capabilities and the DDD concerns the size of those G5 heatsinks, i.e., issues that can be addressed once IBM moves to its 90nm process in Q104 (possibly Q2). From what I know about engineering (which admittedly is not much--and I'm open to being corrected here), even the 3.0GHz parts will run cooler at 90nm than the 2.0 GHz bits at 130nm. (If I'm thinking straight--which may not be the case--I believe even a 4.0 GHz G5 on a 90nm process would be marginally cooler than the current 2.0 part...but don't quote me on that, especially since we'll be on the G6 before G5 hits 4GHz).
If I'm right, then with cooler parts, Apple can call Jono Ives back from his sabatical , rework the internals, and get the internal expansion, 4th PCI slot, and DDD (which is his baby after all) back within the year. Throw in the prices cuts that will need to come next year (back down to G4 prices or better) and 2004 may well be the "Year of the Cheesegrater(TM)."
2 optical drives? Sure it's handy, but not necessary.
That argument is so flawed it reeks all over the Atlantic ocean up to here in the Alps.
Let me find a nice analogy for you: "Sure 2GHz processors and more performance are nice, but not necessary, 50MHz are already much faster than you can type!"
Damn sometimes I'm amazed at how little people think before they post.
I absolutely love the G5s, but I also absolutely hate the fact that they're the least expandable machines in a long time of PowerMac history (actually, thinking about it, they're the least expandable PowerMacs) (the first ones only had one 5.25" bay too, but 3 3.5" bays, one of which was full height (thus effectively 2))
I'm not what you'd call a "Pro" user, but I'm still dependant on certain things these new towers lack. I'll give you some examples:
only 2 HD bays:
- people with existing internal SCSI RAID setups (which are still considerably faster than SATA), are left in the dust. There is no way they can use their storage without buying a very costly external case.
- people with existing ATA setups (RAIDs for example (which are also still faster than SATA) are left in the dust too. Not only is there no discernible connection between the PCI bay (for the controller) and the drive bays (for the drives), but there is also only room for 2 drives.
I'd like to see those people with their 4 drive RAID 5 setups rejoice over the fact that they'll have to by an external Fibrechannel solution for about twice the price of the tower alone (no, FireWire 800, while fast, doesn't cut it)
- people are forced to buy the more expensive SATA drives now, they can't get one of those 300GB ATA drives or a slower, yet big 250GB 5400rpm ATA drive. There's no way to connect it unless they also want to buy an ATA to SATA connector, which again I doubt fits into the very confined space reserved for the drives. Some people just need a lot of storage, it doesn't have to be fast.
- people who need to be able to have 2 disks (CD or DVD) mounted at the same time are left to only 2 options: External drives, adding a lot of costs compared to internal versions or disk images, taking forever to create and annoying to handle (even worse so considering the low speeds of the Superdrive)
- you won't be able to watch DVDs or listen to CDs (which is less of a problem considering most people probably ripped their music by now), while doing anything that requires a CD/DVD mounted. There is for example a telephone directory software here in Switzerland, that needs the CD present in the drive if you want to search the database (since the database is on the disk). Many Offices rely on that software on a daily basis.
- you won't be able to burn any disk to disk copies, legal or illegal ones, this again is going to piss off a lot of professional users who need to make backups, duplicates, mixes etc
- you will be limited to the capabilities of the drive you have installed. ie if you want to be able to burn DVDs, you will be restricted to horribly low CD writing and reading speeds, as well as terrible DVD read speeds. Alternatively, if you want to be able to burn disks quickly (in less than 2 Minutes on fast drives) you lose at least the DVD-R/RW option.
So essentially you either have to buy external drives for a lot of money on an already expensive system (example: I paid 60$ for an internal 48x24x48x Burner in my MDD, with a G5 the same would cost me at least 200$, plus add the hassle of having 2 extra cables and an extra box). That leads me to another point: mobility: Apple brags about thinking about the pro users who want to be able to carry their machines around, thus giving them handles to do so. I promise you, you won't be carrying around a G5 with 3 external drive cages anytime soon, instead you'll spend 5 minutes unplugging everything, moving it and plugging it back together. Depending on what you do, that is a major nuisance. (stuff that dangles around is more like to break, get lost or stolen and get in your way). It can't be Apple's intention to remove the cable clutter inside the mac, just to replace it with an even worse cluttering outside on the desk.
personally I'd readily accept a miditower version of the G5 which is higher by another 5.25" bay, allowing for 2 5.25" drives and 4 3.5" drives. To be honest, the lack of expansion in teh current G5 is one of the main reasons why I'm not going to sell my MDD and wait for at least another revision, hoping that something is going to be done about this obvious shortcoming of an otherwise perfect machine.
Now that was a long post, but I dislike Apple moving the PowerMac more and more towards a closed, non expandable integral design like the iMac. Keep function over form for at least this series of machines. *looks at his Beige G3 tower and mires at it's incredible expandability*. If you see this, Steve, head down to the case design department now.
The new G5 towers are announced and the only thing to people can find to complain about (besides price and shipping date) is storage/internal expansion.
Ok, loss of a PCI slot. Who has all of their PCI slots taken up at the moment, and with what? A 2nd graphics card for a 2nd monitor, I can see that. Another network card, I can see that. SCSI? I guess it's more of a stretch at this point with adapters being widely available but okay. Sound card?
What else would you need?
As for storage, higher capacity hard drives will be out before these machines ship, and we could see people with a terabyte of storage in their machines. If you need more than that, external storage is the way to go.
I hear people complaining about not being able to put in a fast CD-RW into the tower. If you really need 48x burning speeds, is it really that much more inconvenient to buy an external drive?
Seriously, I'm surprised people haven't complained about the lack of space for a tape drive here! That would have to be external in both the old and new towers any way.
You can't please all of the people all of the time. Apple hit the speed, it hit the features, and if I didn't have my PowerBook G4, I'd be after one of these machines. But as I said above, people can't complain about the speed too much, so they go after the 'lesser' features.
I mean, it's not like Apple has locked you out from adding massive amounts of storage or getting a faster CD-RW, upgrading your graphics card, etc.
It's more like Apple shipping you a one button mouse. Many people will go out and get the 2 or 3 button mouse for $30. Yes, it's extra, but it's worth it to people. If you really want these extra drives like Tape, Jaz, CD-RW, Zip, etc., having them external isn't going to change things much. All they would do in most towers is take up space and generate more heat.
no fran, if you haven't gotten the point after that huge post I posted and still think I'm complaining because I need something to complain about, then you either just don't get it, or you're to stubborn to admit, that to some people, it might be an issue.
Needless to say, a 30$ mouse doesn't equal a 250$ external drive, nor are there any internal mice.
You're really missing the whole point...no actually you're ignoring it.
Apple hit the speed, it hit the features, and if I didn't have my PowerBook G4, I'd be after one of these machines.
Exactly, Fran. You are a PowerBook user. You would have a slightly different opinion of this matter if you owned a PowerMac with 4 internal hard drives, and had been using dual internal optical drives for the last year.
I won't blame anyone for being upset over the removal of these options - it's a shame Apple wasn't able to keep them with the new tower design.
it's a shame Apple wasn't able to keep them with the new tower design.
the thing is that they CAN add them... they just have to make the tower a bit taller... room for one more Optical and 2 more HDs... just double the 4th zone...
Comments
Originally posted by Paul
at least $100, of course I got a dual FW bay for $50... but thats way off-topic...8)
Where did you find that gem?
Applenut is right. Plenty of pros have 3-4 drives. A raid card and two striped drivers in addition to the main drive is pretty standard stuff when it comes to semi-pro, pro, and enthusiast set ups. It is the way to do video. Though really high end pro's all use external storage, it's very convenient just to have all the stuff on the machine (in addition to externally). When you want to bang something up real quick, you just dump it into the machine and go, less fuss, back-up to the external storage later. I suppose that with 8GB of RAM, you can negate the expense of RAID by just working with stuff in RAM, but 4-8GB fo RAM don't exactly come cheap either.
Even if we're talking just straight storage, 3-4 drive bays is pretty standard. Between our two PC's we have 4 opticals and 5 HDD's, all internal. Granted, both PC's have less than 250GB of storage, but the point is that we bought extra storage as we needed it and it became affordable, and however big 250, 300, 500 may seem today, we'll have a way to use it all up tommorow. Because of the extra space, I can still plug in another 2 drives on the newer machine (that with 2 drives has more storage than the older machine with 3) and it doesn't even cost me the price of an extra controller. I got a free one bundled with an 80GB drive I bought.
Applenut is right in that it's just another hidden cost, the wholoe point of towers is that you don't need to have lotsa external periphs plugged in. You pay more for the tower so that you don't have to pay for enclosures/externals every time you want to add something.
[/moderator suck up mode]
In truth, I can excuse the lack of a second optical bay. Superdrives are nearly there in terms of speed. 16X CDr isn't bad, the next rev should take them to 8x DVD-r and 24x CDr, and that's plenty fast. You don't gain as much as you think from 48x plus speeds, since that's not linear across the entire surface of the disc. A 24X drive will spit out a disc in 3 mins, an uber speed 40x plus drive will produce it in about 2. Neither is instantaneous, and both are fast enough -- you won't notice waiting a minute longer. Reliability and quiet are more important than utimate CD-r speed.
PS, calling members idiots isn't cool tho.
Originally posted by bunge
External Drive = no work with all iApp functionality.
If we're talking Pro's using external instead of internal expansion is that really a big issue?
Even if it is, I run iMovie, Final Cut Express and iPhoto work off LaCie external FW400 and I've never had a problem...
We're not all there yet, many of us do use many internal drives and appreciate dual optical bays but shortly as our working process changes we'll move into the G5's way of doing things.
I do video editing on a daily basis, and NONE of it is stored on internal hard drives.
However, I do agree that taking away another PCI slot is not a good thing.
I doubt it was to piss people off. As with the removal of the drop-down door (DDD), I'm sure there's a reason for it (though I don't know what that is), because Apple wouldn't want to do it just because they could. If I had to guess, it was probably a price consideration and/or a heating issue (i.e., increasing the size would have made cooling more difficult). Apple probably cut every non-speed corner they could to get the high-end below $3,000.
I'm sure Apple recognizes the need for and popularity of a second full-size removable-media drive bay and more internal expansion (and the DDD), or they wouldn't have advertised those features in previous models. All I can say is: if internal expansion is a necessity for you, you're screwed for the time being.
However, when I think about it--rather than just insulting people--I see hope. Why? Every rational reason Apple neutered the G5 tower's expansion capabilities and the DDD concerns the size of those G5 heatsinks, i.e., issues that can be addressed once IBM moves to its 90nm process in Q104 (possibly Q2). From what I know about engineering (which admittedly is not much--and I'm open to being corrected here), even the 3.0GHz parts will run cooler at 90nm than the 2.0 GHz bits at 130nm. (If I'm thinking straight--which may not be the case--I believe even a 4.0 GHz G5 on a 90nm process would be marginally cooler than the current 2.0 part...but don't quote me on that, especially since we'll be on the G6 before G5 hits 4GHz).
If I'm right, then with cooler parts, Apple can call Jono Ives back from his sabatical
2 optical drives? Sure it's handy, but not necessary.
That argument is so flawed it reeks all over the Atlantic ocean up to here in the Alps.
Let me find a nice analogy for you: "Sure 2GHz processors and more performance are nice, but not necessary, 50MHz are already much faster than you can type!"
Damn sometimes I'm amazed at how little people think before they post.
I absolutely love the G5s, but I also absolutely hate the fact that they're the least expandable machines in a long time of PowerMac history (actually, thinking about it, they're the least expandable PowerMacs) (the first ones only had one 5.25" bay too, but 3 3.5" bays, one of which was full height (thus effectively 2))
I'm not what you'd call a "Pro" user, but I'm still dependant on certain things these new towers lack. I'll give you some examples:
only 2 HD bays:
- people with existing internal SCSI RAID setups (which are still considerably faster than SATA), are left in the dust. There is no way they can use their storage without buying a very costly external case.
- people with existing ATA setups (RAIDs for example (which are also still faster than SATA) are left in the dust too. Not only is there no discernible connection between the PCI bay (for the controller) and the drive bays (for the drives), but there is also only room for 2 drives.
I'd like to see those people with their 4 drive RAID 5 setups rejoice over the fact that they'll have to by an external Fibrechannel solution for about twice the price of the tower alone (no, FireWire 800, while fast, doesn't cut it)
- people are forced to buy the more expensive SATA drives now, they can't get one of those 300GB ATA drives or a slower, yet big 250GB 5400rpm ATA drive. There's no way to connect it unless they also want to buy an ATA to SATA connector, which again I doubt fits into the very confined space reserved for the drives. Some people just need a lot of storage, it doesn't have to be fast.
- people who need to be able to have 2 disks (CD or DVD) mounted at the same time are left to only 2 options: External drives, adding a lot of costs compared to internal versions or disk images, taking forever to create and annoying to handle (even worse so considering the low speeds of the Superdrive)
- you won't be able to watch DVDs or listen to CDs (which is less of a problem considering most people probably ripped their music by now), while doing anything that requires a CD/DVD mounted. There is for example a telephone directory software here in Switzerland, that needs the CD present in the drive if you want to search the database (since the database is on the disk). Many Offices rely on that software on a daily basis.
- you won't be able to burn any disk to disk copies, legal or illegal ones, this again is going to piss off a lot of professional users who need to make backups, duplicates, mixes etc
- you will be limited to the capabilities of the drive you have installed. ie if you want to be able to burn DVDs, you will be restricted to horribly low CD writing and reading speeds, as well as terrible DVD read speeds. Alternatively, if you want to be able to burn disks quickly (in less than 2 Minutes on fast drives) you lose at least the DVD-R/RW option.
So essentially you either have to buy external drives for a lot of money on an already expensive system (example: I paid 60$ for an internal 48x24x48x Burner in my MDD, with a G5 the same would cost me at least 200$, plus add the hassle of having 2 extra cables and an extra box). That leads me to another point: mobility: Apple brags about thinking about the pro users who want to be able to carry their machines around, thus giving them handles to do so. I promise you, you won't be carrying around a G5 with 3 external drive cages anytime soon, instead you'll spend 5 minutes unplugging everything, moving it and plugging it back together. Depending on what you do, that is a major nuisance. (stuff that dangles around is more like to break, get lost or stolen and get in your way). It can't be Apple's intention to remove the cable clutter inside the mac, just to replace it with an even worse cluttering outside on the desk.
personally I'd readily accept a miditower version of the G5 which is higher by another 5.25" bay, allowing for 2 5.25" drives and 4 3.5" drives. To be honest, the lack of expansion in teh current G5 is one of the main reasons why I'm not going to sell my MDD and wait for at least another revision, hoping that something is going to be done about this obvious shortcoming of an otherwise perfect machine.
Now that was a long post, but I dislike Apple moving the PowerMac more and more towards a closed, non expandable integral design like the iMac. Keep function over form for at least this series of machines. *looks at his Beige G3 tower and mires at it's incredible expandability*. If you see this, Steve, head down to the case design department now.
G-News
But the room isn't there, pity, because SATA will even accept ATA66-133 drives with the right cable.
Hey Apple, Pros like to save money too, the big case is supposed to let them do that.
http://www.apple.com/feedback/powermac.html
If nobody complains, they'll continue to trade the good things for the bad things they corrected in the last rev in the future too. Make it stop!
First of all, the original point of this thread (Is there another tower we do not know about?) seems to have been missed.
Second of all, this has turned into more of a critique of Apple's new G5 tower versus other towers in the general technology field.
This doesn't really belong in 'current hardware' and a discussion of this nature doesn't belong in 'future hardware', so I'm moving it to GD.
Originally posted by applenut
somehow an increase in power has to mean taking away expansion?
i dont understand your logic at all, perhaps because it doesn't make sense
Applenut,
Clearly from your posts you don't understand my logic because you clearly don't understand the needs of the PRO user.
Once you get into the REAL WORLD where you rely on your equipment to perform your job, you might begin to understand.
Unfortunately, your lack of maturity in a professional atmosphere will hurt you much more than your lack of knowledge.
The new G5 towers are announced and the only thing to people can find to complain about (besides price and shipping date) is storage/internal expansion.
Ok, loss of a PCI slot. Who has all of their PCI slots taken up at the moment, and with what? A 2nd graphics card for a 2nd monitor, I can see that. Another network card, I can see that. SCSI? I guess it's more of a stretch at this point with adapters being widely available but okay. Sound card?
What else would you need?
As for storage, higher capacity hard drives will be out before these machines ship, and we could see people with a terabyte of storage in their machines. If you need more than that, external storage is the way to go.
I hear people complaining about not being able to put in a fast CD-RW into the tower. If you really need 48x burning speeds, is it really that much more inconvenient to buy an external drive?
Seriously, I'm surprised people haven't complained about the lack of space for a tape drive here! That would have to be external in both the old and new towers any way.
You can't please all of the people all of the time. Apple hit the speed, it hit the features, and if I didn't have my PowerBook G4, I'd be after one of these machines. But as I said above, people can't complain about the speed too much, so they go after the 'lesser' features.
I mean, it's not like Apple has locked you out from adding massive amounts of storage or getting a faster CD-RW, upgrading your graphics card, etc.
It's more like Apple shipping you a one button mouse. Many people will go out and get the 2 or 3 button mouse for $30. Yes, it's extra, but it's worth it to people. If you really want these extra drives like Tape, Jaz, CD-RW, Zip, etc., having them external isn't going to change things much. All they would do in most towers is take up space and generate more heat.
Needless to say, a 30$ mouse doesn't equal a 250$ external drive, nor are there any internal mice.
You're really missing the whole point...no actually you're ignoring it.
G-News
Apple hit the speed, it hit the features, and if I didn't have my PowerBook G4, I'd be after one of these machines.
Exactly, Fran. You are a PowerBook user. You would have a slightly different opinion of this matter if you owned a PowerMac with 4 internal hard drives, and had been using dual internal optical drives for the last year.
I won't blame anyone for being upset over the removal of these options - it's a shame Apple wasn't able to keep them with the new tower design.
Originally posted by murbot
it's a shame Apple wasn't able to keep them with the new tower design.
the thing is that they CAN add them... they just have to make the tower a bit taller... room for one more Optical and 2 more HDs... just double the 4th zone...
how much bigger is this tower then the old ones?
would it still be able to be rackmounted?
Originally posted by applenut
I'm sorry if I sound harsh but, you're an idiot.
:beams: