I've said enough in this thread and elsewhere. Read more.
Yeah, sorry, I scrolled right past your bigger posts, but you still don't have the eloquence you once did.
Anyway on the topic, I do agree with you and with Amorph's summing up. It is not only a raw expansion problem, but a sudden, expensive shift in an upgrade path.
I can only hope that Apple gets all of your reasoned comments!!! .... and if they (or IBM) later sell a tower that is 2 inches taller, and meets your dreams, that they will get your money! 4 cards does seem like a reasonable sweet spot for a pro tower. To me HD's are less of an issue.
This is just the beginning of a long bright path. If Apple would make money engineering a bigger box, I'm sure they will. For myself, I don't have legacy drives to worry about and even if I expand into more professional design work I see so many possible solutions that the internal backtracking isn't an issue for me....I also don't need to use my ADB keyboard.
Edit: It does make me wonder what kind of agreement they have with IBM. If there are any strings attached to what Apple can design and build. The system arch. seems to be able to handle pretty much anything. I would like for myself to see the PowerMac in two cases:
1. Minitower with two slots, two HD's and one optical bay and only in single processor modes. That way you wouldn't have the lower end chip sitting in an overengineered box.
2. PowerTower with 4-6 slots, maybe 3 Hdrives and 2optical bays.
Perhaps no one else shares my confidence, but I predict Apple will find ways to fit more hard drives and optical drives into future revisions of this case. Happened with El Capitan too.
Perhaps no one else shares my confidence, but I predict Apple will find ways to fit more hard drives and optical drives into future revisions of this case. Happened with El Capitan too.
The high end users might have to wait for Grande Vitesse Systems to come out with their G5 version of a workstation. It's too bad that Apple doesn't offer a high end workstation for the 3% of the MAC market that need it but then again without them we would have all been lost a long time ago.
Perhaps no one else shares my confidence, but I predict Apple will find ways to fit more hard drives and optical drives into future revisions of this case. Happened with El Capitan too.
This was the gist of one of my very first posts after the keynote. It's frustrating now, but if you really need the expansion, give 'em some time.
(Not that this directly effects me in any way. I have about $300 in my bank account and sadly wouldn't be able to consider getting one of these beauties for a long time )
Quote:
originally posted by NaplesX
I duplicate cd's all the time and the extra time is not an issue, once again, I don't do this all the time. [emphasis added]
ok quick question for those with 4 internal ATA drives, do you have a controller card installed? I mean you do know that you lose a lot of the performance when you get more than 4 devices on that internal bus.
Also SATA is the way to go, even regular PC prices are on the jump, a lot of manufacturers are going back down to 2 drives as well as SATA is only one drive per channel, from what I understand.
I can see your point about another internal 5.25 bay but I mean c'mon seriously it isn't THAT important, it'll be back in time, the next rev's will be a lot cooler thus wider heatzones and smaller heat syncs hopefully.
Seriously chill out, I'd hate to see how you react to something bout your day to day stress when you people are so on apple's case on this one. The World is still here, the sun still rises, and you can still burn cd's and dvd's.
I definitely think I have elaborated enough on my points in order not to have to answer to any of these already answered questions anymore.
You obviously just don't to the things with your Mac, I do with my Mac, thus you don't understand, or don't want to understand the issues. Plus I never said it was such a fatal flaw, that nobody was going to buy the machines, although you seem to be trying to interpret it that way.
Some levels of Apple apologism really makes me angry, I can't even criticise them anymore without being called a whiner and being pointed to working, yet inferior alternatives.
You guys just need to learn to respect other people's opinions without interpreting them as a personal offense, because YOU happen to think that the G5 case is perfectly sufficient.
Well, to me the loss of a PCI slot is no bg deal, given that TosLink has been added. With OSX and a standard audio I/O you don't even need a soundcard for either 5.1 or input/output. Add FW800 and FW400 and USB2 and Gigabit ethernet, and three PCI-x cards seems plenty, not abundant perhaps, but neither is it likely to impose limits. Pros will add RAID or fiber-channel for offline storage, some will add FW1600/3200 (when they become available) or SDI links/HD capture.
The I/O gets an "A". PC cases of similar size have more slots, but 2-3 are often populated, so it's closer than it seems.
The Optical? Superdrives are getting to that fast enough point, NOT YET, but in a rev or two they will be. Still, the whole point of a Tower is convenient component additions. 1 Opitical bay will not seem so bad when Superdrives burn DVD's at 8X plus and CD's at 32X, but for now it gets a "C".
2 HDD bays. They are beautifully designed bays, just click the drives in, beautiful, BUT THERE'S ONLY TWO! To me this is a far graver failing than the lack of a second optical bay. D, mebbe D-. Only gets a pass because of the simplicity and capacity and SATA.
Cooling. "A" or "A+" Shows every early indication of being overbuilt, if this helps the PMG5 be the sort of machine that runs for years and years without failure, the way computers used to be, perfect, and even if it keep the machine whisper quiet, that's pretty darned nice too.
Exterior style. "B+" Not the prettiest Apple, but nice enough, and still better looking than most any PC case. Not as pretty as the QS, but neither is anything ever made so far (even from Apple).
So that's it.
Cards & I/O. A
Opticals. C
HDD's. D
Cooling. A+
Styling. B+
That's my take on the case "design"
But as I looked over the case, I seat that even with those monsterous heat sinks, there's more than enough room in there already for 4 Hard discs. When you see it from the side you can't really tell, but there's a big void of space between the plastic baffle and the Aluminium door. You could easily mount a bracket against said plastic and put two 3,5" drives there. They wouldn't get any air, unless you also drilled a few holes in the baffle, but it could be done.
Also, it occurs to me that Apple could have made 4 HDD's fit with just a little resizing of the "zones" interior profiles. Rather than make them all straight, the leading edge of the "drive sector" (hehe, sounds like star trek!) could have descended down about 2" for about the first 6" and then quickly tapered up to the same back height as it stand in the current case. Then, you notice, in a three quarter shot, that there is quite a bit of room ABOVE the optical right now. The optical would have been mounted an inch heigher, still with enough space over and beside for the mid mounted "drive fans" to pull air over and through. and that would leave a 3 by 6 space for either a second optical or two 3.5" HDD's mounted transversely. Than fan blowing over the PCI zone would have to be a bit shorter or mounted diagnally and baffled to direct air appropriately.
Problem 90% solved. The case is about 18" deep inside, so the loss of 6" from the forward section doesn't hurt the PCI space any. PCI cards don't go over 12", do they? In either case, the bottom most PCI slot would still have the full depth of the case, just in case someone wanted to stuff some sort of oversized PCI board in there.
I definitely think I have elaborated enough on my points in order not to have to answer to any of these already answered questions anymore.
You obviously just don't to the things with your Mac, I do with my Mac, thus you don't understand, or don't want to understand the issues. Plus I never said it was such a fatal flaw, that nobody was going to buy the machines, although you seem to be trying to interpret it that way.
Some levels of Apple apologism really makes me angry, I can't even criticise them anymore without being called a whiner and being pointed to working, yet inferior alternatives.
You guys just need to learn to respect other people's opinions without interpreting them as a personal offense, because YOU happen to think that the G5 case is perfectly sufficient.
G-News
Name a standard configured computer PC or MAC that meets all of your needs. It seems that no matter what the options you need more. Gnews- you seem to be a pecimist or something. You have not even physically touched the machine or let alone used it. You are assuming that this machine will not fill your needs, assuming that one exists that will, before experiencing it. I bet you cried doom and gloom when apple decided that computers no longer need floppy drives.
Be assured that if there is enough people requesting more options apple will put them in. This is the beginning of a new line.
Your arguments are easily refutable. Don't resort to self pitty when you don't win. You are entitled to your opinion and personal requirements. I really dont think apple is subtracting options to anger gnews.
Fire wire is extremely fast and is a viable alternative to an internal bus. I think that apple, not to mention the industry, is looking to firewire for future expanability.
Apple has to come up with a superior product to stay alive in the computer world. They have been innovators since Jobs stepped back in. This is what they are known for. This is yet another innovation. Don't judge it before it even hits the streets. They have to please a lot more people than just you. They are trying to build a machine aimed at a certain group, most likely a large group of people that need this type particular type of machine. Their are tons of factors to balance here, weight for one, overall looks.
The world is not ending and it seems that you are overreacting to some minor issues, that could turn out to be non issues. You are complaining about what ifs.
Peiople are excited about the new machine, if you are not you should probably go to the "I love my packard bell" news group. Especially if you are going to criticise. Here's what you could have said and got the same point across:
Hey nice computer, very cool, i hope that through time another optical bay will be added along with some more PCI.
You basicly said:
What is apple doing, trying to jip us all. They dont know how to plan and dont care about their pro customers.
With the current tower layout, I don't see anybody install a RAID in there, a software RAID out of 2 SATA drive is about the max you can.
It will have to be via an external box, they exist, not cheap
Which is why I critiqued it.
But as I look at the case, even now I see where anyone could put two more HDD's either mounted on the plastic baffle or making a little braket to put them under the optical, PCI cards aren't that long. I'm sure the cooling is adequate.
You NEED more bays because you need more storage, a new bigger drive is nice, but it's not nearly as nice when you have to lose your prvious drive to get it in.
Digital cameras are only getting bigger resolutions. Digital video, the same, MP3/4 will be more popular than ever, and a video/PVR version will come in time. Already have more ways to fill out a drive than you can think, and we're only going to think of more. Wait untill you start storing big photoshop projects with 64 bit color spaces, recording you iSight sessions or keeping huge multi-track audio projects stored on the computer just for conveniences sake (though wiser pros WILL BACK IT UP!)
No, I fully admit that it is an 'issue', but I'm saying it's being overblown. My point is that it's not like you can't have an external drive to serve the same purpose.
My thought is that if you added in another expansion bay, you'd have to find another way to cool the parts of the system and the added cost wouldn't be worth it in the long run.
Well, this sort of confuses me, but my point really was that you can configure your system with the features you want, but it's going to cost you more money. That's a fact of life when dealing with Apple. If those drives aren't going to fit inside the tower, you have to find another way to go around it, and that solution is to buy an external drive.
It's not like an iMac, iBook, eMac, or PowerBook where you can't upgrade the graphics card, add more than 1 GB of RAM, add a second hard drive or optical drive, or have any expansion at all (except for the PowerBook's PCMCIA slot).
Yes, I guess my perspective is different since I own a PowerBook and none of my Macs have really been that expandable.
Going in order: Apple ][GS, Mac Performa 575, PowerBook 1400, iMac G3/233, PowerBook G3/500 (Pismo), iMac G3/500, and finally my PowerBook G4/1 GHz.
For reference, my brother has a DP G4/500 tower and he put in a 2nd Hard Drive, Sound card, 2 GB of RAM, and a Radeon (32 MB), so I'm not entirely a stranger to expansion.
Your point is that you want everything inside the case because it's cheaper and easier to lug around.
My point is that as long as you can get everything you want, even if it is outside the case, what's the problem?
Fran,
No disrespect intended, but you leave the impression that you actually enjoy being abused by Apple. The problem is that many of you have never known a computer system other than an Apple and have no earthly idea of the lack of functionality of many of the Apple cases.
I very much doubt that it would have taken any particular effort to come up with a case that has the amount of space people are talking about for a 2d optical drive and a few more HDs. The cooling issue is a non-factor as far as cost would have been concerned.
Ok NaplesX, you're really starting to make me angry, emphasis on YOU, as opposed to "Apple".
What you're trying to do is call me a pessimist because I dare step out of the reality distortion field some people still seem to be trapped in and look at the G5s aspects that will, sooner or later either be corrected or complained about by a much larger audience than just the few people on this board.
Quote:
Name a standard configured computer PC or MAC that meets all of your needs. It seems that no matter what the options you need more.
Like I already said, but you obviously didn't bother to read my posts entirely: I absolutely love the G5, its design, its architecture etc, all I was complaining about was the lack of drive expandability. Add another 2 HD bays and an optical bay and I'm the happiest Mac user in the world.
Quote:
Gnews- you seem to be a pecimist or something.
No I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist, and I live in a free country and as such a person, I can utter my dissent about something as I please.
Quote:
You have not even physically touched the machine or let alone used it. You are assuming that this machine will not fill your needs, assuming that one exists that will, before experiencing it.
I don't need to see it in person to realize that this machine will not be expandable beyond 2 HD 1 optical without either hacking something or voiding your warranty.
Quote:
I bet you cried doom and gloom when apple decided that computers no longer need floppy drives.
No, I welcomed it as much as everybody else, I absolutely hate floppy disks. You lose your bet.
Quote:
Be assured that if there is enough people requesting more options apple will put them in. This is the beginning of a new line.
Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself?
You're arguing with me about how I'm a pessimist and negative about everything (although I'm positive about the other 95% of the G5, but you neatly ignore that), yet in the next sentence you point out that, if enough people complain, something will change? DO YOU SEE that you basically just destroyed your whole point you were trying to make?
Quote:
Your arguments are easily refutable.
Aparently not, at least not by you.
Quote:
Don't resort to self pitty when you don't win. You are entitled to your opinion and personal requirements. I really dont think apple is subtracting options to anger gnews.
I'm not angry at all, I merely pointed out that as it is, the case design of the G5 is lacking features that I need/demand and that I am unhappy with that. That doesn't make me angry at all. What's making me angry is people like you who are trying to twist my statements in my own mouth.
Quote:
Fire wire is extremely fast and is a viable alternative to an internal bus. I think that apple, not to mention the industry, is looking to firewire for future expanability.
First of all, I never said Firewire was slow, or not suitable to use drives with.
Secondly an external bus can't be a substitute for an internal bus, that's like having apples for oranges.
Third I don't think Apple, who has a long tradition of "fighting the cable clutter" is going to rely on cable clutter in the future. That makes no sense.
Quote:
Apple has to come up with a superior product to stay alive in the computer world. They have been innovators since Jobs stepped back in. This is what they are known for. This is yet another innovation. Don't judge it before it even hits the streets. They have to please a lot more people than just you. They are trying to build a machine aimed at a certain group, most likely a large group of people that need this type particular type of machine. Their are tons of factors to balance here, weight for one, overall looks.
I dare say that nobody in that certain group (which happen to be pro users), would have complained if there had been 4 HD bays and 2 optical bays. Nobody would have said "reduce it to 2 and 1". At least I can't remember anyone complaining about the additional optical bay teh MDD introduced. can you?
Plus, weight is hardly an issue for a tower. The MDD is nearly 40kg full configured, teh G5, using aluminium is arguably lighter and making the case taller to accomodate more drive space would have added 1kg at the max.
Overall looks are a good thing, but form should not go oer function, and that seems to be a thing Apple has a hard time understanding with the PowerMac.
Quote:
The world is not ending and it seems that you are overreacting to some minor issues, that could turn out to be non issues. You are complaining about what ifs.
Dude, are you a priest or something? The only one overreacting here is you, because you think I'm going nuts over the lack of the drive space, just because I dared point it out? Seriously man, get a clue.
Quote:
Peiople are excited about the new machine, if you are not you should probably go to the "I love my packard bell" news group. Especially if you are going to criticise.
So basically, what you are telling me is: "Piss off, this is a happy Mac user LSD party and we all like to live in euphoria and dare you utter a world of dissent or we are going to toss you into the box of PC trolls that come by from time to time. Leave me in my rose world on cloud nine thinking that Apple is going to dominate the world with its new G5." I pity you.
Quote:
Here's what you could have said and got the same point across:
Hey nice computer, very cool, i hope that through time another optical bay will be added along with some more PCI.
You basicly said:
What is apple doing, trying to jip us all. They dont know how to plan and dont care about their pro customers.
you really obviously didn't read my posts or failed to understand them, or mixed them with comments of other people. Plus, even if "over time" the issue is going to be resolved, which I hope, that still makes it an issue for the system shipping in September and as such, makes it an issue for 10'000 of people who buy or want to buy one of these machines now. People who buy will not be able to exchange their cases for a new one (thus remaining an issue until they get a new machine), and the ones waiting essentially turn into an issue for Apple, because a customer that waits, doesn't pay. And I regret that.
4 bays were available in previous models of Macs. If I'm a Tower user, and I want to move my old drives into my new Mac, I can't. That's a problem.
I say they make a taller tower to house a Quad, and let the taller case double as a BTO option for Duals/Singles that want more drive space.
That seems the logical solution and the "inevitable" evolution...so get your friends together and prove to Apple that you will buy them.
Apple has become MUCH more attuned to feedback. It is too bad they don't have a little "bug" button on the front of the tower that gives you 10 seconds to talk into the mic (or iChat AV?) and automatically sends your commment to their tech people...that would be cool.
Summary of the ectothermic reaction of this thread and hopeful resultant precipitate:
Mindless Mac Apologists + Mindless Mac Whiners = total, mutual annihilation of each w/ good ideas remaining.
That seems the logical solution and the "inevitable" evolution...so get your friends together and prove to Apple that you will buy them.
Apple has become MUCH more attuned to feedback. It is too bad they don't have a little "bug" button on the front of the tower that gives you 10 seconds to talk into the mic (or iChat AV?) and automatically sends your commment to their tech people...that would be cool.
Summary of the ectothermic reaction of this thread and hopeful resultant precipitate:
Mindless Mac Apologists + Mindless Mac Whiners = total, mutual annihilation of each w/ good ideas remaining.
+ = 8)
Yes MacGregor, but why can't Apple figure out the really simple part of space for expansion in a "tower"? They seem to make the same mistake over and over and over and....
Hey sorry for the tone of the post, it just seems to me that a lot of you for get one of apple's goals is to be innovative. No hard feeling I did read your posts and you're right I did get some other posts mixed up. Sorry I made it personal.
I was an expansion"ist" and a PC user for a long time. I got sick of the rat race and decided to try out the mac and have never been happier. I used to upgrade regularly to the latest thing (it was easy since I owned a PC service center) in hopes to get that extra performance and stability. Well anyone that has ever been through the update drivers/bios/firmware/OS thing know that after a handful of times through that, you just say "there has got to be a better way."
As I found, there is.
Like I eluded to in earlier posts, I have only popped my mac open only to add memory when I bought it. I have really had no need. I still get a jones to pull apart a computer now and again. But that is ubtil a customer calls me with a problem and I realize how good I have it.
I am not a mac appologist or what have you. I am simply a person that, I think, gets the Apple mindset. Simpler is better.
My point is;
At the rate that Hard drive capacities and access speeds and throughput are increasing. The argument that you NEED 4 bays to put old drives in seems to be a weak one. Are 4 100 GB drives better than 2 250 GB drives? I will give you that a second optical bay would be a plus, but when you have a superdrive you can read and write just about anything. The throughputs on this computer are astronomical also virtually removing the need for a second optical drive. Most other removable drives have or will soon be gone by the wayside. Not everyone has a zip or a jaz or a MO... everyone does have a CD drive. Why clutter up the inside of a state of the art machine with obsolete stuff?
I am not in any way saying that your needs are not important, I just think apple has a forward vision: Thay stay compatible with technologies that are viable and move away from those that are not.
You and others may be part of a segment of users that feel they need that compatibility or expansion possibilities but it does not keep the machine simple and elegant, which is what apple I think is going for.
Comments
Originally posted by applenut
I've said enough in this thread and elsewhere. Read more.
Yeah, sorry, I scrolled right past your bigger posts, but you still don't have the eloquence you once did.
Anyway on the topic, I do agree with you and with Amorph's summing up. It is not only a raw expansion problem, but a sudden, expensive shift in an upgrade path.
I can only hope that Apple gets all of your reasoned comments!!! .... and if they (or IBM) later sell a tower that is 2 inches taller, and meets your dreams, that they will get your money! 4 cards does seem like a reasonable sweet spot for a pro tower. To me HD's are less of an issue.
This is just the beginning of a long bright path. If Apple would make money engineering a bigger box, I'm sure they will. For myself, I don't have legacy drives to worry about and even if I expand into more professional design work I see so many possible solutions that the internal backtracking isn't an issue for me....I also don't need to use my ADB keyboard.
Edit: It does make me wonder what kind of agreement they have with IBM. If there are any strings attached to what Apple can design and build. The system arch. seems to be able to handle pretty much anything. I would like for myself to see the PowerMac in two cases:
1. Minitower with two slots, two HD's and one optical bay and only in single processor modes. That way you wouldn't have the lower end chip sitting in an overengineered box.
2. PowerTower with 4-6 slots, maybe 3 Hdrives and 2optical bays.
Originally posted by pscates
All of you guys: SHUT UP and buy an iBook
OK.
(you'll get credit when I post my iBook setup at the end of the week)
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Perhaps no one else shares my confidence, but I predict Apple will find ways to fit more hard drives and optical drives into future revisions of this case. Happened with El Capitan too.
Exactly! I'm in your camp.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Perhaps no one else shares my confidence, but I predict Apple will find ways to fit more hard drives and optical drives into future revisions of this case. Happened with El Capitan too.
This was the gist of one of my very first posts after the keynote. It's frustrating now, but if you really need the expansion, give 'em some time.
(Not that this directly effects me in any way. I have about $300 in my bank account and sadly wouldn't be able to consider getting one of these beauties for a long time
originally posted by NaplesX
I duplicate cd's all the time and the extra time is not an issue, once again, I don't do this all the time. [emphasis added]
I know what you meant, it just sounds kinda funny
Also SATA is the way to go, even regular PC prices are on the jump, a lot of manufacturers are going back down to 2 drives as well as SATA is only one drive per channel, from what I understand.
I can see your point about another internal 5.25 bay but I mean c'mon seriously it isn't THAT important, it'll be back in time, the next rev's will be a lot cooler thus wider heatzones and smaller heat syncs hopefully.
99$ External Firewire Burner Happy?
Seriously chill out, I'd hate to see how you react to something bout your day to day stress when you people are so on apple's case on this one. The World is still here, the sun still rises, and you can still burn cd's and dvd's.
You obviously just don't to the things with your Mac, I do with my Mac, thus you don't understand, or don't want to understand the issues. Plus I never said it was such a fatal flaw, that nobody was going to buy the machines, although you seem to be trying to interpret it that way.
Some levels of Apple apologism really makes me angry, I can't even criticise them anymore without being called a whiner and being pointed to working, yet inferior alternatives.
You guys just need to learn to respect other people's opinions without interpreting them as a personal offense, because YOU happen to think that the G5 case is perfectly sufficient.
G-News
The I/O gets an "A". PC cases of similar size have more slots, but 2-3 are often populated, so it's closer than it seems.
The Optical? Superdrives are getting to that fast enough point, NOT YET, but in a rev or two they will be. Still, the whole point of a Tower is convenient component additions. 1 Opitical bay will not seem so bad when Superdrives burn DVD's at 8X plus and CD's at 32X, but for now it gets a "C".
2 HDD bays. They are beautifully designed bays, just click the drives in, beautiful, BUT THERE'S ONLY TWO! To me this is a far graver failing than the lack of a second optical bay. D, mebbe D-. Only gets a pass because of the simplicity and capacity and SATA.
Cooling. "A" or "A+" Shows every early indication of being overbuilt, if this helps the PMG5 be the sort of machine that runs for years and years without failure, the way computers used to be, perfect, and even if it keep the machine whisper quiet, that's pretty darned nice too.
Exterior style. "B+" Not the prettiest Apple, but nice enough, and still better looking than most any PC case. Not as pretty as the QS, but neither is anything ever made so far (even from Apple).
So that's it.
Cards & I/O. A
Opticals. C
HDD's. D
Cooling. A+
Styling. B+
That's my take on the case "design"
But as I looked over the case, I seat that even with those monsterous heat sinks, there's more than enough room in there already for 4 Hard discs. When you see it from the side you can't really tell, but there's a big void of space between the plastic baffle and the Aluminium door. You could easily mount a bracket against said plastic and put two 3,5" drives there. They wouldn't get any air, unless you also drilled a few holes in the baffle, but it could be done.
Also, it occurs to me that Apple could have made 4 HDD's fit with just a little resizing of the "zones" interior profiles. Rather than make them all straight, the leading edge of the "drive sector" (hehe, sounds like star trek!) could have descended down about 2" for about the first 6" and then quickly tapered up to the same back height as it stand in the current case. Then, you notice, in a three quarter shot, that there is quite a bit of room ABOVE the optical right now. The optical would have been mounted an inch heigher, still with enough space over and beside for the mid mounted "drive fans" to pull air over and through. and that would leave a 3 by 6 space for either a second optical or two 3.5" HDD's mounted transversely. Than fan blowing over the PCI zone would have to be a bit shorter or mounted diagnally and baffled to direct air appropriately.
Problem 90% solved. The case is about 18" deep inside, so the loss of 6" from the forward section doesn't hurt the PCI space any. PCI cards don't go over 12", do they? In either case, the bottom most PCI slot would still have the full depth of the case, just in case someone wanted to stuff some sort of oversized PCI board in there.
Pros will add RAID or fiber-channel for offline storage
With the current tower layout, I don't see anybody install a RAID in there, a software RAID out of 2 SATA drive is about the max you can.
Originally posted by G-News
I definitely think I have elaborated enough on my points in order not to have to answer to any of these already answered questions anymore.
You obviously just don't to the things with your Mac, I do with my Mac, thus you don't understand, or don't want to understand the issues. Plus I never said it was such a fatal flaw, that nobody was going to buy the machines, although you seem to be trying to interpret it that way.
Some levels of Apple apologism really makes me angry, I can't even criticise them anymore without being called a whiner and being pointed to working, yet inferior alternatives.
You guys just need to learn to respect other people's opinions without interpreting them as a personal offense, because YOU happen to think that the G5 case is perfectly sufficient.
G-News
Name a standard configured computer PC or MAC that meets all of your needs. It seems that no matter what the options you need more. Gnews- you seem to be a pecimist or something. You have not even physically touched the machine or let alone used it. You are assuming that this machine will not fill your needs, assuming that one exists that will, before experiencing it. I bet you cried doom and gloom when apple decided that computers no longer need floppy drives.
Be assured that if there is enough people requesting more options apple will put them in. This is the beginning of a new line.
Your arguments are easily refutable. Don't resort to self pitty when you don't win. You are entitled to your opinion and personal requirements. I really dont think apple is subtracting options to anger gnews.
Fire wire is extremely fast and is a viable alternative to an internal bus. I think that apple, not to mention the industry, is looking to firewire for future expanability.
Apple has to come up with a superior product to stay alive in the computer world. They have been innovators since Jobs stepped back in. This is what they are known for. This is yet another innovation. Don't judge it before it even hits the streets. They have to please a lot more people than just you. They are trying to build a machine aimed at a certain group, most likely a large group of people that need this type particular type of machine. Their are tons of factors to balance here, weight for one, overall looks.
The world is not ending and it seems that you are overreacting to some minor issues, that could turn out to be non issues. You are complaining about what ifs.
Peiople are excited about the new machine, if you are not you should probably go to the "I love my packard bell" news group. Especially if you are going to criticise. Here's what you could have said and got the same point across:
Hey nice computer, very cool, i hope that through time another optical bay will be added along with some more PCI.
You basicly said:
What is apple doing, trying to jip us all. They dont know how to plan and dont care about their pro customers.
Do you see the difference?
Why do you need 4 HD bays?
The key word is need. With the sizes of HD getting so expansive, why?
I do understand the want to add as much as possible.
Give me a reason why it is NEEDED.
Originally posted by G-News
With the current tower layout, I don't see anybody install a RAID in there, a software RAID out of 2 SATA drive is about the max you can.
It will have to be via an external box, they exist, not cheap
Which is why I critiqued it.
But as I look at the case, even now I see where anyone could put two more HDD's either mounted on the plastic baffle or making a little braket to put them under the optical, PCI cards aren't that long. I'm sure the cooling is adequate.
You NEED more bays because you need more storage, a new bigger drive is nice, but it's not nearly as nice when you have to lose your prvious drive to get it in.
Digital cameras are only getting bigger resolutions. Digital video, the same, MP3/4 will be more popular than ever, and a video/PVR version will come in time. Already have more ways to fill out a drive than you can think, and we're only going to think of more. Wait untill you start storing big photoshop projects with 64 bit color spaces, recording you iSight sessions or keeping huge multi-track audio projects stored on the computer just for conveniences sake (though wiser pros WILL BACK IT UP!)
If we don't NEED it NOW, we WILL, soon enough.
Originally posted by Fran441
No, I fully admit that it is an 'issue', but I'm saying it's being overblown. My point is that it's not like you can't have an external drive to serve the same purpose.
My thought is that if you added in another expansion bay, you'd have to find another way to cool the parts of the system and the added cost wouldn't be worth it in the long run.
Well, this sort of confuses me, but my point really was that you can configure your system with the features you want, but it's going to cost you more money. That's a fact of life when dealing with Apple. If those drives aren't going to fit inside the tower, you have to find another way to go around it, and that solution is to buy an external drive.
It's not like an iMac, iBook, eMac, or PowerBook where you can't upgrade the graphics card, add more than 1 GB of RAM, add a second hard drive or optical drive, or have any expansion at all (except for the PowerBook's PCMCIA slot).
Yes, I guess my perspective is different since I own a PowerBook and none of my Macs have really been that expandable.
Going in order: Apple ][GS, Mac Performa 575, PowerBook 1400, iMac G3/233, PowerBook G3/500 (Pismo), iMac G3/500, and finally my PowerBook G4/1 GHz.
For reference, my brother has a DP G4/500 tower and he put in a 2nd Hard Drive, Sound card, 2 GB of RAM, and a Radeon (32 MB), so I'm not entirely a stranger to expansion.
Your point is that you want everything inside the case because it's cheaper and easier to lug around.
My point is that as long as you can get everything you want, even if it is outside the case, what's the problem?
Fran,
No disrespect intended, but you leave the impression that you actually enjoy being abused by Apple. The problem is that many of you have never known a computer system other than an Apple and have no earthly idea of the lack of functionality of many of the Apple cases.
I very much doubt that it would have taken any particular effort to come up with a case that has the amount of space people are talking about for a 2d optical drive and a few more HDs. The cooling issue is a non-factor as far as cost would have been concerned.
Here is a link to an article about Ive's comments on the case design for whatever they may be worth. <http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,59381,00.html>
Originally posted by NaplesX
Give me a reason why it is NEEDED.
4 bays were available in previous models of Macs. If I'm a Tower user, and I want to move my old drives into my new Mac, I can't. That's a problem.
I say they make a taller tower to house a Quad, and let the taller case double as a BTO option for Duals/Singles that want more drive space.
What you're trying to do is call me a pessimist because I dare step out of the reality distortion field some people still seem to be trapped in and look at the G5s aspects that will, sooner or later either be corrected or complained about by a much larger audience than just the few people on this board.
Name a standard configured computer PC or MAC that meets all of your needs. It seems that no matter what the options you need more.
Like I already said, but you obviously didn't bother to read my posts entirely: I absolutely love the G5, its design, its architecture etc, all I was complaining about was the lack of drive expandability. Add another 2 HD bays and an optical bay and I'm the happiest Mac user in the world.
Gnews- you seem to be a pecimist or something.
No I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist, and I live in a free country and as such a person, I can utter my dissent about something as I please.
You have not even physically touched the machine or let alone used it. You are assuming that this machine will not fill your needs, assuming that one exists that will, before experiencing it.
I don't need to see it in person to realize that this machine will not be expandable beyond 2 HD 1 optical without either hacking something or voiding your warranty.
I bet you cried doom and gloom when apple decided that computers no longer need floppy drives.
No, I welcomed it as much as everybody else, I absolutely hate floppy disks. You lose your bet.
Be assured that if there is enough people requesting more options apple will put them in. This is the beginning of a new line.
Do you realize that you are contradicting yourself?
You're arguing with me about how I'm a pessimist and negative about everything (although I'm positive about the other 95% of the G5, but you neatly ignore that), yet in the next sentence you point out that, if enough people complain, something will change? DO YOU SEE that you basically just destroyed your whole point you were trying to make?
Your arguments are easily refutable.
Aparently not, at least not by you.
Don't resort to self pitty when you don't win. You are entitled to your opinion and personal requirements. I really dont think apple is subtracting options to anger gnews.
I'm not angry at all, I merely pointed out that as it is, the case design of the G5 is lacking features that I need/demand and that I am unhappy with that. That doesn't make me angry at all. What's making me angry is people like you who are trying to twist my statements in my own mouth.
Fire wire is extremely fast and is a viable alternative to an internal bus. I think that apple, not to mention the industry, is looking to firewire for future expanability.
First of all, I never said Firewire was slow, or not suitable to use drives with.
Secondly an external bus can't be a substitute for an internal bus, that's like having apples for oranges.
Third I don't think Apple, who has a long tradition of "fighting the cable clutter" is going to rely on cable clutter in the future. That makes no sense.
Apple has to come up with a superior product to stay alive in the computer world. They have been innovators since Jobs stepped back in. This is what they are known for. This is yet another innovation. Don't judge it before it even hits the streets. They have to please a lot more people than just you. They are trying to build a machine aimed at a certain group, most likely a large group of people that need this type particular type of machine. Their are tons of factors to balance here, weight for one, overall looks.
I dare say that nobody in that certain group (which happen to be pro users), would have complained if there had been 4 HD bays and 2 optical bays. Nobody would have said "reduce it to 2 and 1". At least I can't remember anyone complaining about the additional optical bay teh MDD introduced. can you?
Plus, weight is hardly an issue for a tower. The MDD is nearly 40kg full configured, teh G5, using aluminium is arguably lighter and making the case taller to accomodate more drive space would have added 1kg at the max.
Overall looks are a good thing, but form should not go oer function, and that seems to be a thing Apple has a hard time understanding with the PowerMac.
The world is not ending and it seems that you are overreacting to some minor issues, that could turn out to be non issues. You are complaining about what ifs.
Dude, are you a priest or something? The only one overreacting here is you, because you think I'm going nuts over the lack of the drive space, just because I dared point it out? Seriously man, get a clue.
Peiople are excited about the new machine, if you are not you should probably go to the "I love my packard bell" news group. Especially if you are going to criticise.
So basically, what you are telling me is: "Piss off, this is a happy Mac user LSD party and we all like to live in euphoria and dare you utter a world of dissent or we are going to toss you into the box of PC trolls that come by from time to time. Leave me in my rose world on cloud nine thinking that Apple is going to dominate the world with its new G5." I pity you.
Here's what you could have said and got the same point across:
Hey nice computer, very cool, i hope that through time another optical bay will be added along with some more PCI.
You basicly said:
What is apple doing, trying to jip us all. They dont know how to plan and dont care about their pro customers.
you really obviously didn't read my posts or failed to understand them, or mixed them with comments of other people. Plus, even if "over time" the issue is going to be resolved, which I hope, that still makes it an issue for the system shipping in September and as such, makes it an issue for 10'000 of people who buy or want to buy one of these machines now. People who buy will not be able to exchange their cases for a new one (thus remaining an issue until they get a new machine), and the ones waiting essentially turn into an issue for Apple, because a customer that waits, doesn't pay. And I regret that.
Do you see the difference?
Yes, did you READ my posts?
Quick question?
Why do you need 4 HD bays?
Quick question: DO YOUR READ MY POSTS?
Dang,
G-news
Originally posted by bunge
4 bays were available in previous models of Macs. If I'm a Tower user, and I want to move my old drives into my new Mac, I can't. That's a problem.
I say they make a taller tower to house a Quad, and let the taller case double as a BTO option for Duals/Singles that want more drive space.
That seems the logical solution and the "inevitable" evolution...so get your friends together and prove to Apple that you will buy them.
Apple has become MUCH more attuned to feedback. It is too bad they don't have a little "bug" button on the front of the tower that gives you 10 seconds to talk into the mic (or iChat AV?) and automatically sends your commment to their tech people...that would be cool.
Summary of the ectothermic reaction of this thread and hopeful resultant precipitate:
Mindless Mac Apologists + Mindless Mac Whiners = total, mutual annihilation of each w/ good ideas remaining.
Originally posted by MacGregor
That seems the logical solution and the "inevitable" evolution...so get your friends together and prove to Apple that you will buy them.
Apple has become MUCH more attuned to feedback. It is too bad they don't have a little "bug" button on the front of the tower that gives you 10 seconds to talk into the mic (or iChat AV?) and automatically sends your commment to their tech people...that would be cool.
Summary of the ectothermic reaction of this thread and hopeful resultant precipitate:
Mindless Mac Apologists + Mindless Mac Whiners = total, mutual annihilation of each w/ good ideas remaining.
Yes MacGregor, but why can't Apple figure out the really simple part of space for expansion in a "tower"? They seem to make the same mistake over and over and over and....
I was an expansion"ist" and a PC user for a long time. I got sick of the rat race and decided to try out the mac and have never been happier. I used to upgrade regularly to the latest thing (it was easy since I owned a PC service center) in hopes to get that extra performance and stability. Well anyone that has ever been through the update drivers/bios/firmware/OS thing know that after a handful of times through that, you just say "there has got to be a better way."
As I found, there is.
Like I eluded to in earlier posts, I have only popped my mac open only to add memory when I bought it. I have really had no need. I still get a jones to pull apart a computer now and again. But that is ubtil a customer calls me with a problem and I realize how good I have it.
I am not a mac appologist or what have you. I am simply a person that, I think, gets the Apple mindset. Simpler is better.
My point is;
At the rate that Hard drive capacities and access speeds and throughput are increasing. The argument that you NEED 4 bays to put old drives in seems to be a weak one. Are 4 100 GB drives better than 2 250 GB drives? I will give you that a second optical bay would be a plus, but when you have a superdrive you can read and write just about anything. The throughputs on this computer are astronomical also virtually removing the need for a second optical drive. Most other removable drives have or will soon be gone by the wayside. Not everyone has a zip or a jaz or a MO... everyone does have a CD drive. Why clutter up the inside of a state of the art machine with obsolete stuff?
I am not in any way saying that your needs are not important, I just think apple has a forward vision: Thay stay compatible with technologies that are viable and move away from those that are not.
You and others may be part of a segment of users that feel they need that compatibility or expansion possibilities but it does not keep the machine simple and elegant, which is what apple I think is going for.