Your constant fabrication is really annoying, especially now that it is moving into a title of one of your gazillion threads.
Of course and your claims of fabrication are even more annoying. The fact that you refute my "fabrications" with evidence like... repeating yourself over and over is still more annoying.
The claim stands. An illegal immigrant living in California could receive lower cost or free schooling while it would cost the Arizona resident considerably more. We will subsidize the cost of schooling for California residents and for illegal immigrants, but not for the Arizona resident.
PROVE IT WRONG. The Arizona resident is charged out of state tuition because we WON'T subsidize him.
The illegal immigrant is getting a benefit the citizen is not.
Then to top it off the out of state resident now needs MORE financial aid. Grant amounts are set per year. They just don't increase because more students need them.
So now you are also allowing the illegal immigrant to apply for the same limited funds that the Arizona resident must apply for and granting enough money to pay for his/her schooling which takes away from the general grant pot of money. However the Arizona resident needs this money EVEN MORE to attend school since their schooling is not subsidized.
The net result is likely that a legal immigrant or citizen would have to wait a year to get residency (exactly what you say the illegal immigrant should not have to do via the INS) and then be able to go afford school with the smaller grant.
I know what you mean, but you're wrong. Why shouldn't they? The applications have been filed with immigration, a background check has taken place and fees have been paid. Once the applications have been filed you can get a permit to work and pay taxes. Technically your status is legal.
Making them wait for years before they have access to an education while legally being able to work and pay taxes would be ridiculous.
Access to an education? Talk about your reading comprehension problems....
We are talking about access to financial aid. They still have full access to college and even at the state subsidized price.
Is there anything you would deny illegal immigrants Gilsch?
Of course and your claims of fabrication are even more annoying. The fact that you refute my "fabrications" with evidence like... repeating yourself over and over is still more annoying.
So you are just a liar, then.
Trumptman, this is a lie from every angle: "Free college, but only if you are illegal.."
Quote:
illegal shouldn't have more rights than someone who is a citizen!
They don't. For you to say they do is another lie.
If they can't quite afford it, that's as good as denying them an education isn't it? I guess my wording wasn't the best.
Read my last post. After filing their application with the INS or whatever the agency is called now, they wouldn't be illegal anymore. Hello?
Talk about reading comprehension problems. Thanks for proving my point.
If an illegal immigrant can't afford $165 for 15 units, how can someone from out of state afford $1950?
Likewise you AGAIN show your lack of reading comprehension. They do not have to file for legal immigrant status with the INS, they have to file for state residency. They are by no means a legal immigrant, or anything of that nature.
By the way trumptman. I hope you're on a break right now(or enjoying a day off). I'd hate to think you're wasting time posting on a message board on the California tax payers dime.
Quote:
Originally posted by The General
So, what if after the years of processing(and them getting license and free education) they are turned down?
Good question. I have no idea what other options they may have at that point. I don't think you can just apply without first of all, meeting some criteria or qualifications so I'm guessing there would have to be some pretty strong reasons for getting turned down .
Hopefully by the time that happens they'll have a career and a job(and a record of tax paying) and could re-apply through their jobs or something.
Isn't that exactly what they are doing by applying for legal immigrant status?
Of course, on a level I do agree with your argument here.
You and Gilsch seem to have the same problem. You think applying for state residency is the same as applying for your legal immigration status from the Federal Government.
Proving they live in the state is not the same as immigration status with the federal government. North even mentioned that he would not qualify for financial aid while (his characterization) Julio the gardener's kids would.
Yet you claim the title is misleading. It isn't, he can't qualify for financial aid. My children would not qualify either even though they would be 18 and not entitled to a dime from me.
If an illegal immigrant can't afford $165 for 15 units, how can someone from out of state afford $1950?
What the hell are you talking about? Credits? So 5 classes? I doubt the number traveling out of state to take 5 classes at a community college is rather low. If you are looking for residency for a larger school, live there a year. I did that with one of the schools I went to and it wasn't a problem.
North even mentioned that he would not qualify for financial aid while (his characterization) Julio the gardener's kids would.
I'm not sure I know anyone that didn't go to school with some sort of financial aid regardless of income level. If you guys have a problem with it in california, figure out a more effective way than bitching about illegal immigrants, your eternal scapegoats.
Quote:
Yet you claim the title is misleading.
No I claim that it is a straight up lie no matter how you read it.
[B]You and Gilsch seem to have the same problem. You think applying for state residency is the same as applying for your legal immigration status from the Federal Government.
WTF are you talking about? You can't be serious.
Quote:
Proving they live in the state is not the same as immigration status with the federal government. North even mentioned that he would not qualify for financial aid while (his characterization) Julio the gardener's kids would.
No kidding. You're wrong unless 3 years of HS don't qualify you as a state resident. I can't believe you're posting this on my dime.
You know what? How is it that the same people that brought us the Iraq war, tax cuts for the wealthy, the repeal of the estate tax and limits on federal funding for states are the same ones now bitching about lack of funds? Well, no shit, sherlock.
I'm not sure I know anyone that didn't go to school with some sort of financial aid regardless of income level.
No I claim that it is a straight up lie no matter how you read it.
Claim, claim, claim. You must be a gold miner.
You can claim but of course you will never refute.
There are folks being denied entrance to schools, receiving lower grant amounts, being forced to take out loans, and dropping out of school due to the costs. Yet we have a bill to allow illegal immigrants not only to attend, not only to be subsidized, but to have the remaining small costs given to them with a financial aid grant.
For the first time in its history, CSU has made a formal decision to turn away qualified students this spring -- a move expected to keep out as many as 30,000 students across the 23-campus system, the nation's largest.
UC leaders likely will follow in the fall of 2004 with plans to freeze enrollment growth for freshmen, transfer students and graduate students. That decision would block entry for an estimated 5,000 eligible students.
However I'm sure your claims of liar, liar will make the 35,000+ student feel better about financial aid grants for illegal aliens to not pay $165 when the state is turning away so many.
In what way does giving them a college education keep me safe?
Why would an educator want California high school grads to be denied a higher education?
And why do you think it is a good idea to have bright teenagers unable to fulfil their potential?
Sounds dangerous to me.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Additionally we are told repeatedly by illegal immigration advocates, that illegals are here to do the jobs that no legal immigrant or legal citizen would do. What the heck does that have to do with college? I mean I think such views (yeah I tolerate them because they pick the vegetables) are not progressive and actually pretty racist in my view. However even if they are right, why do you need a degree to be a day laborer?
Anyone that manages to finish a minimum of 3 years of high school in California and get a diploma while day laboring deserves everything they get. Jings! It was only 8 short paragraphs, you could have had the decency to read them, seeing how it was *your* link.
But I'm glad you're not racist. You just want to introduce a caste system to prevent the illegals that support the Californian economy from ever getting more than a high school diploma.
Yes they are however only if you are below certain income levels.
Isn't that the way financial aid works? I'm drawing a distinction here between aid and scholarships.
Quote:
Likewise it doesn't have infinite resources. Should a poor legal immigrant or perhaps disadvantaged inner city black youth have to take a loan instead of a grant, or perhaps not even get enough financial aid to attend school?
I'm not really sure I understand what you're asking here. Are you suggesting that this is somehow going to disallow aid to needy students students? Isn't this always competitive, at least in terms of grants, which are different. Loans, I believe, are available to anyone who wants them, although the amount of money differs.
Quote:
In a time of scarcity, why should one group not only be given the right to go to school, but the right to have it paid for?
I don't see how this is disallowing students their right to an education. The CA system is in economic trouble, no doubt. But so is every other public institution in the US. I'm still not sure why this is so disturbing. CA raised its tuition, which it has needed to do for some time. So did Oklahoma State University. Big deal. This happens.
Here's what the article says:
"It would require that the student attended high school in California for at least three years, obtained a diploma or an equivalent degree and, if the student isn't in the state legally, has applied to become a legal resident."
These aren't people right off the boat. These are people who have gotten the required pre-reqs to attend and who are in the process of becoming a naturalized citizen, or at least a legal resident. As others have remarked, this process can take years.
Are we to deny them access to our education system because INS is so byzantine that it can take a long time for the process to be completed? And in the meantime, what are these folks supposed to do? Get high-paying jobs? The fewer people you educate, the worse your crime is going to be.
Quote:
Understand that I have not said that they should not be able to attend college, just not receive financial aid.
Well, the article is awfully vague on what KIND of aid they're eligible for. Stafford loans? Grants? Local assistance? Where I did my graduate work, non-citizens were not eligible for federal aid, which I suppose is the case in CA, as well.
Quote:
What is bing discussed specifically is financial aid. The state college system is already subsidized to provide the education it delivers.
Again, we don't know WHAT kind of aid we're talking about. I don't understand why it's significant to you that the state system is subsidized, since we're only talking about community colleges here. At any rate, if it's federally subsidized that means that folks in other states are paying for it, too.
Quote:
I don't mind them going. I don't mind subsidizing the state colleges while they go. (in state tuition rate) However they can chip in the $165 for 15 units.
There are folks being denied entrance to schools, receiving lower grant amounts, being forced to take out loans, and dropping out of school due to the costs. Yet we have a bill to allow illegal immigrants not only to attend, not only to be subsidized, but to have the remaining small costs given to them with a financial aid grant.
Unless you can prove otherwise....the lamentable cuts will affect EVERYONE equally. Are you stating that "illegals" will not be affected by the cuts? If so prove it. Can you point me to where the article states that?
Also, where does it say that students are receiving lower grant amounts in the article? Do you have a link for that?
Quote:
However I'm sure your claims of liar, liar will make the 35,000+ student feel better about financial aid grants for illegal aliens to not pay $165 when the state is turning away so many.
Where does it say that "illegals" will have priority over legals regarding enrollment? Seems to me the cuts will affect enrollment equally unless you're one of the top 12.5% of HS graduates(they're promised a seat at one of the 9 UC campuses), or the Top third(guaranteed seat at one of the CSU campuses).[/b]
The situation is not good for students coming out of HS. It really sucks and I feel badly for them. I guess they'll have to get better grades or attend a community college and then transfer for the time being.
Quote:
Originally posted by trmptman
when will I be safe enough, when I have given them my house and have taken shelter in a cardboard box?
Go hide trumptman!!! The illegals are coming to get you!!!! I really hope you put your bias aside when dealing with the immigrant kids at your school.
You know what's ironic folks? That this guy who is so concerned with state monies posts from an elementary school (he said he worked at an elementary school surrounded by democrats on another thread) during school hours.
My and all tax paying Californians' dollars at work.
Seems to me the cuts will affect enrollment equally unless you're one of the top 12.5% of HS graduates(they're promised a seat at one of the 9 UC campuses), or the Top third(guaranteed seat at one of the CSU campuses).
They're not going to those campuses. Here's part of the first sentence of the article:
"A bill that would allow undocumented immigrants to apply for financial aid at California community colleges..."
The California Community Colleges supports the current measure, SB 328, said Mary Gill, a vice chancellor who monitors legislation.
"Let's take kids who are raised here, who know no other home, who are in desperate financial situations and help them climb out of that," Gill said.
Extending fee waivers to poor illegal immigrants would not harm citizens in need of financial aid. There is no limit to the number of students who qualify, she said.
Programs at the 108 community colleges would not be adversely affected, Gill said, because the state covers lost fees.
So free college for illegal immigrants. Meanwhile I don't know if any of you have ever looked at state college fees for out of state residents, but they go up profoundly.
Of course it would be too easy to adopt the idea of free tuition?
I never had to pay a penny for my school, high school or university - but then again we don't spend tens of billions of $ first ruining then rebuilding the gulf region...
Comments
Originally posted by giant
That's why they don't.
Your constant fabrication is really annoying, especially now that it is moving into a title of one of your gazillion threads.
Of course and your claims of fabrication are even more annoying. The fact that you refute my "fabrications" with evidence like... repeating yourself over and over is still more annoying.
The claim stands. An illegal immigrant living in California could receive lower cost or free schooling while it would cost the Arizona resident considerably more. We will subsidize the cost of schooling for California residents and for illegal immigrants, but not for the Arizona resident.
PROVE IT WRONG. The Arizona resident is charged out of state tuition because we WON'T subsidize him.
The illegal immigrant is getting a benefit the citizen is not.
Then to top it off the out of state resident now needs MORE financial aid. Grant amounts are set per year. They just don't increase because more students need them.
So now you are also allowing the illegal immigrant to apply for the same limited funds that the Arizona resident must apply for and granting enough money to pay for his/her schooling which takes away from the general grant pot of money. However the Arizona resident needs this money EVEN MORE to attend school since their schooling is not subsidized.
The net result is likely that a legal immigrant or citizen would have to wait a year to get residency (exactly what you say the illegal immigrant should not have to do via the INS) and then be able to go afford school with the smaller grant.
Nick
Originally posted by Gilsch
I know what you mean, but you're wrong. Why shouldn't they? The applications have been filed with immigration, a background check has taken place and fees have been paid. Once the applications have been filed you can get a permit to work and pay taxes. Technically your status is legal.
Making them wait for years before they have access to an education while legally being able to work and pay taxes would be ridiculous.
Access to an education? Talk about your reading comprehension problems....
We are talking about access to financial aid. They still have full access to college and even at the state subsidized price.
Is there anything you would deny illegal immigrants Gilsch?
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Access to an education? Talk about your reading comprehension problems....
We are talking about access to financial aid. They still have full access to college and even at the state subsidized price.
Nick
If they can't quite afford it, that's as good as denying them an education isn't it? I guess my wording wasn't the best.
Originally posted by trumptman
Is there anything you would deny illegal immigrants Gilsch?
Read my last post. After filing their application with the INS or whatever the agency is called now, they wouldn't be illegal anymore. Hello?
Talk about reading comprehension problems. Thanks for proving my point.
Originally posted by Northgate
But, prove you want to be an American first. Then you get the benefits.
Isn't that exactly what they are doing by applying for legal immigrant status?
Of course, on a level I do agree with your argument here.
Originally posted by giant
Because it can take a few years for the INS to process the applications.
So, what if after the years of processing(and them getting license and free education) they are turned down?
Originally posted by trumptman
Of course and your claims of fabrication are even more annoying. The fact that you refute my "fabrications" with evidence like... repeating yourself over and over is still more annoying.
So you are just a liar, then.
Trumptman, this is a lie from every angle: "Free college, but only if you are illegal.."
illegal shouldn't have more rights than someone who is a citizen!
They don't. For you to say they do is another lie.
Originally posted by Gilsch
If they can't quite afford it, that's as good as denying them an education isn't it? I guess my wording wasn't the best.
Read my last post. After filing their application with the INS or whatever the agency is called now, they wouldn't be illegal anymore. Hello?
Talk about reading comprehension problems. Thanks for proving my point.
If an illegal immigrant can't afford $165 for 15 units, how can someone from out of state afford $1950?
Likewise you AGAIN show your lack of reading comprehension. They do not have to file for legal immigrant status with the INS, they have to file for state residency. They are by no means a legal immigrant, or anything of that nature.
Nick
Originally posted by The General
So, what if after the years of processing(and them getting license and free education) they are turned down?
Good question. I have no idea what other options they may have at that point. I don't think you can just apply without first of all, meeting some criteria or qualifications so I'm guessing there would have to be some pretty strong reasons for getting turned down .
Hopefully by the time that happens they'll have a career and a job(and a record of tax paying) and could re-apply through their jobs or something.
Originally posted by giant
Isn't that exactly what they are doing by applying for legal immigrant status?
Of course, on a level I do agree with your argument here.
You and Gilsch seem to have the same problem. You think applying for state residency is the same as applying for your legal immigration status from the Federal Government.
Proving they live in the state is not the same as immigration status with the federal government. North even mentioned that he would not qualify for financial aid while (his characterization) Julio the gardener's kids would.
Yet you claim the title is misleading. It isn't, he can't qualify for financial aid. My children would not qualify either even though they would be 18 and not entitled to a dime from me.
It is a crock.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
If an illegal immigrant can't afford $165 for 15 units, how can someone from out of state afford $1950?
What the hell are you talking about? Credits? So 5 classes? I doubt the number traveling out of state to take 5 classes at a community college is rather low. If you are looking for residency for a larger school, live there a year. I did that with one of the schools I went to and it wasn't a problem.
Originally posted by trumptman
North even mentioned that he would not qualify for financial aid while (his characterization) Julio the gardener's kids would.
I'm not sure I know anyone that didn't go to school with some sort of financial aid regardless of income level. If you guys have a problem with it in california, figure out a more effective way than bitching about illegal immigrants, your eternal scapegoats.
Yet you claim the title is misleading.
No I claim that it is a straight up lie no matter how you read it.
Originally posted by trumptman
[B]You and Gilsch seem to have the same problem. You think applying for state residency is the same as applying for your legal immigration status from the Federal Government.
WTF are you talking about? You can't be serious.
Proving they live in the state is not the same as immigration status with the federal government. North even mentioned that he would not qualify for financial aid while (his characterization) Julio the gardener's kids would.
No kidding. You're wrong unless 3 years of HS don't qualify you as a state resident. I can't believe you're posting this on my dime.
Originally posted by giant
I'm not sure I know anyone that didn't go to school with some sort of financial aid regardless of income level.
No I claim that it is a straight up lie no matter how you read it.
Claim, claim, claim. You must be a gold miner.
You can claim but of course you will never refute.
There are folks being denied entrance to schools, receiving lower grant amounts, being forced to take out loans, and dropping out of school due to the costs. Yet we have a bill to allow illegal immigrants not only to attend, not only to be subsidized, but to have the remaining small costs given to them with a financial aid grant.
Budget cuts turn away 30,000+
For the first time in its history, CSU has made a formal decision to turn away qualified students this spring -- a move expected to keep out as many as 30,000 students across the 23-campus system, the nation's largest.
UC leaders likely will follow in the fall of 2004 with plans to freeze enrollment growth for freshmen, transfer students and graduate students. That decision would block entry for an estimated 5,000 eligible students.
However I'm sure your claims of liar, liar will make the 35,000+ student feel better about financial aid grants for illegal aliens to not pay $165 when the state is turning away so many.
It seems it is you who lies.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
In what way does giving them a college education keep me safe?
Why would an educator want California high school grads to be denied a higher education?
And why do you think it is a good idea to have bright teenagers unable to fulfil their potential?
Sounds dangerous to me.
Originally posted by trumptman
Additionally we are told repeatedly by illegal immigration advocates, that illegals are here to do the jobs that no legal immigrant or legal citizen would do. What the heck does that have to do with college? I mean I think such views (yeah I tolerate them because they pick the vegetables) are not progressive and actually pretty racist in my view. However even if they are right, why do you need a degree to be a day laborer?
Anyone that manages to finish a minimum of 3 years of high school in California and get a diploma while day laboring deserves everything they get. Jings! It was only 8 short paragraphs, you could have had the decency to read them, seeing how it was *your* link.
But I'm glad you're not racist. You just want to introduce a caste system to prevent the illegals that support the Californian economy from ever getting more than a high school diploma.
Originally posted by trumptman
Yes they are however only if you are below certain income levels.
Isn't that the way financial aid works? I'm drawing a distinction here between aid and scholarships.
Likewise it doesn't have infinite resources. Should a poor legal immigrant or perhaps disadvantaged inner city black youth have to take a loan instead of a grant, or perhaps not even get enough financial aid to attend school?
I'm not really sure I understand what you're asking here. Are you suggesting that this is somehow going to disallow aid to needy students students? Isn't this always competitive, at least in terms of grants, which are different. Loans, I believe, are available to anyone who wants them, although the amount of money differs.
In a time of scarcity, why should one group not only be given the right to go to school, but the right to have it paid for?
I don't see how this is disallowing students their right to an education. The CA system is in economic trouble, no doubt. But so is every other public institution in the US. I'm still not sure why this is so disturbing. CA raised its tuition, which it has needed to do for some time. So did Oklahoma State University. Big deal. This happens.
Here's what the article says:
"It would require that the student attended high school in California for at least three years, obtained a diploma or an equivalent degree and, if the student isn't in the state legally, has applied to become a legal resident."
These aren't people right off the boat. These are people who have gotten the required pre-reqs to attend and who are in the process of becoming a naturalized citizen, or at least a legal resident. As others have remarked, this process can take years.
Are we to deny them access to our education system because INS is so byzantine that it can take a long time for the process to be completed? And in the meantime, what are these folks supposed to do? Get high-paying jobs? The fewer people you educate, the worse your crime is going to be.
Understand that I have not said that they should not be able to attend college, just not receive financial aid.
Well, the article is awfully vague on what KIND of aid they're eligible for. Stafford loans? Grants? Local assistance? Where I did my graduate work, non-citizens were not eligible for federal aid, which I suppose is the case in CA, as well.
What is bing discussed specifically is financial aid. The state college system is already subsidized to provide the education it delivers.
Again, we don't know WHAT kind of aid we're talking about. I don't understand why it's significant to you that the state system is subsidized, since we're only talking about community colleges here. At any rate, if it's federally subsidized that means that folks in other states are paying for it, too.
I don't mind them going. I don't mind subsidizing the state colleges while they go. (in state tuition rate) However they can chip in the $165 for 15 units.
They're not going to the state colleges.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by trumptman
There are folks being denied entrance to schools, receiving lower grant amounts, being forced to take out loans, and dropping out of school due to the costs. Yet we have a bill to allow illegal immigrants not only to attend, not only to be subsidized, but to have the remaining small costs given to them with a financial aid grant.
Unless you can prove otherwise....the lamentable cuts will affect EVERYONE equally. Are you stating that "illegals" will not be affected by the cuts? If so prove it. Can you point me to where the article states that?
Also, where does it say that students are receiving lower grant amounts in the article? Do you have a link for that?
However I'm sure your claims of liar, liar will make the 35,000+ student feel better about financial aid grants for illegal aliens to not pay $165 when the state is turning away so many.
Where does it say that "illegals" will have priority over legals regarding enrollment? Seems to me the cuts will affect enrollment equally unless you're one of the top 12.5% of HS graduates(they're promised a seat at one of the 9 UC campuses), or the Top third(guaranteed seat at one of the CSU campuses).[/b]
The situation is not good for students coming out of HS. It really sucks and I feel badly for them. I guess they'll have to get better grades or attend a community college and then transfer for the time being.
Originally posted by trmptman
when will I be safe enough, when I have given them my house and have taken shelter in a cardboard box?
Go hide trumptman!!! The illegals are coming to get you!!!!
You know what's ironic folks? That this guy who is so concerned with state monies posts from an elementary school (he said he worked at an elementary school surrounded by democrats on another thread) during school hours.
My and all tax paying Californians' dollars at work.
Originally posted by Gilsch
Seems to me the cuts will affect enrollment equally unless you're one of the top 12.5% of HS graduates(they're promised a seat at one of the 9 UC campuses), or the Top third(guaranteed seat at one of the CSU campuses).
They're not going to those campuses. Here's part of the first sentence of the article:
"A bill that would allow undocumented immigrants to apply for financial aid at California community colleges..."
Cheers
Scott
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s..._1n13fees.html
The California Community Colleges supports the current measure, SB 328, said Mary Gill, a vice chancellor who monitors legislation.
"Let's take kids who are raised here, who know no other home, who are in desperate financial situations and help them climb out of that," Gill said.
Extending fee waivers to poor illegal immigrants would not harm citizens in need of financial aid. There is no limit to the number of students who qualify, she said.
Programs at the 108 community colleges would not be adversely affected, Gill said, because the state covers lost fees.
And it only applies to community colleges
Originally posted by trumptman
So free college for illegal immigrants. Meanwhile I don't know if any of you have ever looked at state college fees for out of state residents, but they go up profoundly.
Of course it would be too easy to adopt the idea of free tuition?
I never had to pay a penny for my school, high school or university - but then again we don't spend tens of billions of $ first ruining then rebuilding the gulf region...