Since the bill that we're discussing only applies to community colleges and the cuts apply to UC and CSU unis the answer is quite obviously yes. Any legal or illegal will be affected by said cuts unless they have good grades.
First and foremost since all the college systems are funded from the same source, the state, it is impossible to say one source is not interconnected with the other. If CSU/UC is cut more than the community colleges, it means CSU/UC were cut more to cut community colleges less. How can you be so dense on this? Plus the community college system was cut, just not as deeply as CSU/UC.
I suppose you feel better now that an additional 40,000 have been added to the 35,000 I mentioned earlier. The reason I added "+" to them is that is the number denied since the Spring, more will be denied this year.
Quote:
You answered you own question. The grant stays the same.
Some grants were cut, others were left the same. However when you add a 30% tuition hike with the same grant, it isn't the same. I assure you that if I charged you $1200 for your education and gave you a $300 grant, then raised your tuition to $1600, you wouldn't call the grant the same. The tuition is paid to the state and the grant is given from the state, only funny math would call that grant the same.
Quote:
You're comparing apples to oranges.Folks, legal and illegal are being denied entrance to UC and CSU unis unless they have good grades. The bill would work for community colleges, not the UC and CSU universities. Again.
Students are being denied services, classes and paying more EVERYWHERE, not just at CSU/UC. Likewise only you create this imaginary boundry between the money sources that all come from the same state budget. Small cuts at community colleges have meant larger cuts at CSU/UC.
Quote:
It may. You're making a lot of assumptions there though. I won't disagree with you on them because they MAY very well become applicable in some cases.
Hey you want to call 40,000 students an assumption, that is your business. Even before I found the article it wasn't an assumption because 35,000 people just aren't going to disappear.
Quote:
You have no bias??? lol...Please. Just read your original full-of-gigantic-holes post. Then read what you just posted, unproven, about the "large number of accidents involving illegal immigrants". Since accidents are statistically recorded (not necessarily having anything to do with "news reports"), I'm sure you can point me to an article that notes such large numbers of accidents. Otherwise you'll just be talking out of your biased derriere again.
Sorry Gilsch, I think you read this backwards again. I said ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT CAUSING LARGE NUMBERS OF ACCIDENTS.
I said it was a made up issue to justify giving them legal ID's under the guise of public safety. I don't really see how you got that I thought they were CAUSING accidents. They aren't. I said they are safe drivers with licenses from their home country. I said that immigrant advocates were claiming the safety issue to get to the ID issue.
That is what the sarcasm was about with the "I'll be afraid until I'm living in a cardboard box" joke. People shouldn't generate fear about illegal immigrants in an attempt to help them. That is what I felt they were doing with the license issue.
Quote:
You're all over the place now. You were the one bitching about illegals not having to pay the $156. But now, $156 is not a lot of money. LOL make up your mind.
I said they should pay it in this time of budget crisis. Others countered that asking them to pay that amount of money, or any money was "denying them a right to higher education."
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
Why would an educator want California high school grads to be denied a higher education?
This is what I was replying to when I said asking them to pay that money is not "denying them higher education."
Besides who said it isn't a lot of money? I would challege you to find where I said that. I simply said that in a budget year where everything is being cut, illegal immigrants should not be getting financial aid which takes more money out of the community college/CSU/UC funds which help EVERYONE. It is a simple matter of priorities. As I mentioned before they get to go to college, they get the subsidized rate for college, they can chip in the that amount of money themselves. Is it a small amount of money? It is compared to what out of state residents have to pay to attend community colleges. However it may not be small for them. However when the belt is tightened it should be tightened for everyone.
Why the hell do people here ILLEGALLY get to use our services that WE, THE TAXPAYERS pay for? Bah.
This is really the center of the issue, isn't it. The idea behind this is to have an educated work force that contributes to society. As I stated earlier, this legislation works to alleviate some of the strains created by a problem. If the goal is to stop illegal immigration, opposing this bill does nothing to help reach that goal.
There also is some element of punishment in the arguments against this bill, and that angle is totally stupid.
California has much a much stricter residency process for US citizens than any other state I have ever look at. Actually, when I was considering moving there and was looking at it I was actually living in Michigan (I grew up in chicago) where residency could basically be had by getting a piece of mail. However, the US citizen residency process and INS immigration process are completely different and not comparable, except to correct people when they are lying by saying illegal immigrant 'have more rights' than US citizens.
Furthermore, no one in the US is crying a freaking river over californians losing a guaranteed spot in a university. The rest of us had to apply and get accepted, so welcome to the club. This issue of undocumented immigrants getting an education is completely separate, except that some of you think you aren't getting a fair share because you now don't get a special privilege no one else in the country gets (AFAICT, New York and Illinois at least don't have it). Boo-****ing-Hoo.
The issue of education for this very specific group of illegal immigrants has more widespread implications than just you getting back your taxes. It's interesting that the same people that are totally opposed for this reason in particular are the same idiots that believe they live in a vacuum and are 'self-made.' Well, chances are my household income is quite a bit larger than yours, as is that of most people I have contact with, and we all know, as you do, too, that your claim is total bullsh!t on the highest level.
Circumstance does not create a man, it reveals him.
See, this joke of a signature is exactly what I am talking about. Gosh, which example should I go with? How about the most high-profile of them all, GWB? I guess what your sig says is true, if you mean that it 'reveals him' as a total moron who always gotten everything given to him no matter how hard he's screwed it up (up to and including national foreign and domestic policy of the US). Otherwise, it's total BS.
Yes, that's another $4,000 in tuition on top of the 25% increase since the beginning of the year.
I really doubt that the California Community Colleges support the tuition waiver. I know someone cited a quote by an administrator "so it must be true". Many community colleges had to cancel their summer programs and, in fact, have reduced their course offerings.
Or maybe this support is just like some current California renewable energy incentive programs. One one hand, they are approved, but on the other, they are not funded.
See, this joke of a signature is exactly what I am talking about. Gosh, which example should I go with? How about the most high-profile of them all, GWB? I guess what your sig says is true, if you mean that it 'reveals him' as a total moron who always gotten everything given to him no matter how hard he's ****ed it up (up to and including national foreign and domestic policy of the US). Otherwise, it's total BS.
Get up on the wrong side of the bed again?
I could not be around this kind of attitude day after day. Find something positive to say just once..
There are plenty of people I don't care for as you don't care for GWB but for God's sake do I go around every waking min of every day complaining about them? NO..
Just "Try" for us all to take a break from the GWB is a rotten stupid excuse of a president speech. Give us a one week break at least.
Yes, that's another $4,000 in tuition on top of the 25% increase since the beginning of the year.
I really doubt that the California Community Colleges support the tuition waiver. I know someone cited a quote by an administrator "so it must be true". Many community colleges had to cancel their summer programs and, in fact, have reduced their course offerings.
Or maybe this support is just like some current California renewable energy incentive programs. One one hand, they are approved, but on the other, they are not funded.
From the article...
Quote:
UC Vice President for the Budget Larry Hirshman said that would mean no more new enrollments, a possible $4,000 a year increase in current student fees and layoffs of more than 13,000 faculty and staff.
I know and watch these guys around here complaining that an illegal immigrant might actually have to pay their tuition at a friggin' community college when thousands are denied education and under threat of being laid off.
Perhaps they will get a clue when the entire tax base has left the state.
I could not be around this kind of attitude day after day. Find something positive to say just once..
Well, then explain to trumptman why not to bait and attack everyone on AO. Of course, both you and he are peas in a pod with the gazillion bait threads.
I find it really interesting how selective your criticism is here, as well.
Quote:
There are plenty of people I don't care for as you don't care for GWB but for God's sake do I go around every waking min of every day complaining about them? NO..
It applies (if you want claim Bush didn't screw up everything he touched, I have a 3Ghz G5 to sell you on ebay), and funny you should be the one to pretend someone is stuck on a subject.
BTW: your criticism suggests you may believe in the 'success in a vacuum' theory. Newer suburbs almost seem designed to make people believe in it.
Maybe you should have 'from the article'd the following, rather than selectively quoting:
Yep ol'UC Vice President for the Budget Larry Hirshman must be a Bushie/Fox News/Rush Limbaugh caller himself.
Not financially viable means they can't do it and still maintain the services they provide...or it might bring about lawsuits, etc. It might require them to consider going to unions to get concessions, they might have to break contracts, etc.
It is not viable for them to provide what they offer today with 20% less money. It doesn't make sense that you can function in the current manner you do as a university.
Oh I know, lets fix this 20% short fall by making it a 23% shortfall so we can give more money to community colleges so that illegal immigrants can get calgrants so they don't have to pay for tuition.
Because money is just that stuff you take from people to give to others...
You know, I just have to wonder about this: How is it that californians have a program that guarantees enrollment to all high school grads and then bitches when they don't have money for education a couple decades later. And then after all that, why is the focus of the discussion on lack of edu funding focused on a small program to help the US economy by educating and teaching work skills to future US citizens that would not gain them any other way? Oh yeah. We're talking about illegal aliens, the ultimate scapegoat. You guys do realize that blaming immigrants is the classic sign of a nation ignoring it's own internal screw-ups, don't you?
I know and watch these guys around here complaining that an illegal immigrant might actually have to pay their tuition at a friggin' community college when thousands are denied education and under threat of being laid off.
Perhaps they will get a clue when the entire tax base has left the state.
Nick
Stop whining already. Seems that the only thing left for you is to confuse and somehow attempt to tie issues together. How many times do we need to explain to you that the cuts are for UC and CSU universities and not community colleges?
Show me where it says people are being denied COMMUNITY college education while illegals aren't...otherwise stop confusing the "bill" with the cuts. You can't really be that dense man, seriously.
God save us!!! The entire tax base is leaving the state!!!
OK. I understand that you are just a teacher and don't ever have to deal with committees and proposals and allocation of millions of dollars. But if you ever do get into that situation, you will become a little clearer as to what the article is saying. In short, the governor's office asked for a 20% cut in all agencies. UC can't have this happen, and is responding as such. This happens daily, no, hourly in any large organization. This is why organizations and companies have meetings. If I got vacation time for every hour I dealt with unreasonable administrative requests, I would work a week a year (OK, it's an exaggeration, but you get the point).
Point being, this is a bit different than the doomsday scenario you are painting. Furthermore, if it's that bad, don't you have much, much, much bigger things to be focusing on than this small 'hot topic' issue.
Quote:
Oh I know, lets fix this 20% short fall by making it a 23% shortfall so we can give more money to community colleges so that illegal immigrants can get calgrants so they don't have to pay for tuition.
No, how about you fix it by looking at what brought you here and working to solve it on the macro side, rather than focusing on the small issue you use just to assert your political views. In the long run, educating these people is probably a good thing.
I agree that it certainly should be based on merit, in which case we could easily be talking about only a very small amount of money compared to what you people are dealing with the whole state budget crisis.
What a dumb ass proposal. The kind of stupidity you hope is reserved for the right side of the aisle, but in truth is just as prevalent on the left.
On a side note, if illegal aliens are allowed to attend state schools in CA they really are already getting aid. If it's anything like New York the tuition the student pays is probably only about 1/3rd of the actual cost of that students education. The other two thirds are picked up by the state and local governments.
Stop whining already. Seems that the only thing left for you is to confuse and somehow attempt to tie issues together. How many times do we need to explain to you that the cuts are for UC and CSU universities and not community colleges?
Show me where it says people are being denied COMMUNITY college education while illegals aren't...otherwise stop confusing the "bill" with the cuts. You can't really be that dense man, seriously.
God save us!!! The entire tax base is leaving the state!!!
I already posted the link that showed that due to budget cuts and tuition increases over 40,000 fewer people were attending California community colleges. If they don't offer the classes and you can't afford them, then you are effectively denied whether you care to admit it or not.
The article also had information detailing the cuts that have occured at the community college level.
Likewise you can keep buring your head in the sand with sarcastic snips, but some of us have the reality of the situation.
For the first time since the federal government began tracking such things, more people have moved out of California to other states than have arrived from the other 49. The moving vans headed east and north represented a net of 775,000 people who gave up on California, according to reports Wednesday from the Census Bureau.
Despite that, the state's population is up, the Census Bureau says, thanks to in-state births and people moving to California from other countries. Between 1990 and 2000, California's population rose to just under 33.9 million. The number of foreign-born residents increased by more than one-third to almost 8.9 million.
In state births... hmmm... think those kids are paying taxes yet? That is over three quarter of a million people leaving the state and taking their ability to pay taxes, their businesses, their retirements, etc. with them.
Look another one of those links that just happen to support my made up statement with things like statistics, reports, figures.. all made up by reporters who publish them in newspapers for my grand conspiracy.
The decade-long exodus to other states accelerated last year for the first time since 1994, as Californians fled smog, traffic, a rising cost of living and an imploding job market that have become the dark side of the Golden State. Along with them they took tax revenue the cash-strapped state government badly needs. Economists say the departures are a sign California continues to lose its competitive edge over other states, a chronic problem the state's future governor will face.
I would say encouraged, and encouraged in order to avoid having a large population of US citizens in california living uneducated, unskilled and unproductive.
It's not like this is a 'reward' of any kind. Republicans are just framing it as such to try to discredit it through a dishonest portrayal of the aim of the legislation. So what else is new?
Can you please show how this directly effects US born individuals?
Cal grants, community colleges, CSU and UC schools are all funded by the state of California. The proposal is to allow illegal immigrants to apply for CalGrants to pay for their tuition at community colleges.
I've obviously lived in the state and watched the progression of these bills over time. I have supported them when they have made sense. At one time illegal immigrants couldn't even attend the state college. Then they were granted permission to attend state universities but the state would not subsidize their education, thus they were going to be charged the out of state rate.
Now we have passed laws that allow them to attend universities at the subsidized tuition price. The only thing that is left is the $11 per unit. (Raising to $18 I read earlier in part due to the budget cuts)
The pot of money that is the state budget covers all these areas. As you know we have been running a bit of a deficit here lately. 38 billion to be precise. The budget Davis signed to get by this year was, for education, a mixture of cuts and fee raises. For the state as a whole it was tripling of car fees, the raising of other fees, service cuts and borrowing about 8-10 billion dollars.
The UC system has in some ways always turned away some students. However the CSU system has, though really never had to turn away students who qualified. This year, due to cuts, they have turned away an estimated 30,000 students.
The cuts at the community college have turned away 40,000 students and UC 5,000. They are being asked to consider even larger cuts on top of these original cuts.
So in short there isn't enough money to go around. Everyone is taking hits whether it be not being admitted, not having classes offered, etc.
When you propose a new benefit (financial aid for illegal immigrants) it takes from this already profoundly constrained pot of money. Likewise what they often do is raise the tuition (as they have already done) and attempt to collect more from those who can pay to distribute to those who cannot via financial aid. However there is a diminishing return and students leave whether it because they can't afford it or because they can and flee for a university where the tuition is twice as much, but the classes are available.
During a crunch everyone is being asked to do something so yes U.S. citizens are effected. The least illegal immigrants can do is pay the already heavily subsidized tuition for attending community college.
I would say encouraged, and encouraged in order to avoid having a large population of US citizens in california living uneducated, unskilled and unproductive.
It's not like this is a 'reward' of any kind. Republicans are just framing it as such to try to discredit it through a dishonest portrayal of the aim of the legislation. So what else is new?
They are illegal. They BROKE THE LAW to come here. Why the **** are we rewarding them?
When you propose a new benefit (financial aid for illegal immigrants) it takes from this already profoundly constrained pot of money.
So the link between illegal immigrants and these other cuts is *that* strong? Wow!
So basically any and every expenditure affects everything else, but instead of looking at the big picture you're blaming the illegals for all these woes.
Do you have any actual numbers for how many will qualify under this scheme? Because the way I see it there are two scenarios:
A) You don't have many illegal immigrants who have spent at least three years in a Californian high school, graduated with a diploma, have applied for state residency and can prove they are living in poverty.
In this case few will apply so it is a miniscule expenditure compared with other governmental/education mistakes/excesses. So no problem.
You do have a great number of illegal immigrants who have spent at least three years in a Californian high school and graduated with a diploma, who have applied for state residency and can prove they are living in poverty.
If you do have large numbers of people in this situation then you have big problems that will not be solved by denying these people a higher education (or by the money 'saved' by doing this).
It is done solely to punish them in an act of petty revenge (probably for their parents' actions) while ignoring the obvious negative impacts of this policy for the state as a whole.
Comments
Originally posted by Gilsch
Since the bill that we're discussing only applies to community colleges and the cuts apply to UC and CSU unis the answer is quite obviously yes. Any legal or illegal will be affected by said cuts unless they have good grades.
First and foremost since all the college systems are funded from the same source, the state, it is impossible to say one source is not interconnected with the other. If CSU/UC is cut more than the community colleges, it means CSU/UC were cut more to cut community colleges less. How can you be so dense on this? Plus the community college system was cut, just not as deeply as CSU/UC.
Plus then we have this..
40,000 fewer students at California community colleges
I suppose you feel better now that an additional 40,000 have been added to the 35,000 I mentioned earlier. The reason I added "+" to them is that is the number denied since the Spring, more will be denied this year.
You answered you own question. The grant stays the same.
Some grants were cut, others were left the same. However when you add a 30% tuition hike with the same grant, it isn't the same. I assure you that if I charged you $1200 for your education and gave you a $300 grant, then raised your tuition to $1600, you wouldn't call the grant the same. The tuition is paid to the state and the grant is given from the state, only funny math would call that grant the same.
You're comparing apples to oranges.Folks, legal and illegal are being denied entrance to UC and CSU unis unless they have good grades. The bill would work for community colleges, not the UC and CSU universities. Again.
Students are being denied services, classes and paying more EVERYWHERE, not just at CSU/UC. Likewise only you create this imaginary boundry between the money sources that all come from the same state budget. Small cuts at community colleges have meant larger cuts at CSU/UC.
It may. You're making a lot of assumptions there though. I won't disagree with you on them because they MAY very well become applicable in some cases.
Hey you want to call 40,000 students an assumption, that is your business. Even before I found the article it wasn't an assumption because 35,000 people just aren't going to disappear.
You have no bias??? lol...Please. Just read your original full-of-gigantic-holes post. Then read what you just posted, unproven, about the "large number of accidents involving illegal immigrants". Since accidents are statistically recorded (not necessarily having anything to do with "news reports"), I'm sure you can point me to an article that notes such large numbers of accidents. Otherwise you'll just be talking out of your biased derriere again.
Sorry Gilsch, I think you read this backwards again. I said ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT CAUSING LARGE NUMBERS OF ACCIDENTS.
I said it was a made up issue to justify giving them legal ID's under the guise of public safety. I don't really see how you got that I thought they were CAUSING accidents. They aren't. I said they are safe drivers with licenses from their home country. I said that immigrant advocates were claiming the safety issue to get to the ID issue.
That is what the sarcasm was about with the "I'll be afraid until I'm living in a cardboard box" joke. People shouldn't generate fear about illegal immigrants in an attempt to help them. That is what I felt they were doing with the license issue.
You're all over the place now. You were the one bitching about illegals not having to pay the $156. But now, $156 is not a lot of money. LOL make up your mind.
I said they should pay it in this time of budget crisis. Others countered that asking them to pay that amount of money, or any money was "denying them a right to higher education."
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
Why would an educator want California high school grads to be denied a higher education?
This is what I was replying to when I said asking them to pay that money is not "denying them higher education."
Besides who said it isn't a lot of money? I would challege you to find where I said that. I simply said that in a budget year where everything is being cut, illegal immigrants should not be getting financial aid which takes more money out of the community college/CSU/UC funds which help EVERYONE. It is a simple matter of priorities. As I mentioned before they get to go to college, they get the subsidized rate for college, they can chip in the that amount of money themselves. Is it a small amount of money? It is compared to what out of state residents have to pay to attend community colleges. However it may not be small for them. However when the belt is tightened it should be tightened for everyone.
Nick
Originally posted by BR
Why the hell do people here ILLEGALLY get to use our services that WE, THE TAXPAYERS pay for? Bah.
This is really the center of the issue, isn't it. The idea behind this is to have an educated work force that contributes to society. As I stated earlier, this legislation works to alleviate some of the strains created by a problem. If the goal is to stop illegal immigration, opposing this bill does nothing to help reach that goal.
There also is some element of punishment in the arguments against this bill, and that angle is totally stupid.
California has much a much stricter residency process for US citizens than any other state I have ever look at. Actually, when I was considering moving there and was looking at it I was actually living in Michigan (I grew up in chicago) where residency could basically be had by getting a piece of mail. However, the US citizen residency process and INS immigration process are completely different and not comparable, except to correct people when they are lying by saying illegal immigrant 'have more rights' than US citizens.
Furthermore, no one in the US is crying a freaking river over californians losing a guaranteed spot in a university. The rest of us had to apply and get accepted, so welcome to the club. This issue of undocumented immigrants getting an education is completely separate, except that some of you think you aren't getting a fair share because you now don't get a special privilege no one else in the country gets (AFAICT, New York and Illinois at least don't have it). Boo-****ing-Hoo.
The issue of education for this very specific group of illegal immigrants has more widespread implications than just you getting back your taxes. It's interesting that the same people that are totally opposed for this reason in particular are the same idiots that believe they live in a vacuum and are 'self-made.' Well, chances are my household income is quite a bit larger than yours, as is that of most people I have contact with, and we all know, as you do, too, that your claim is total bullsh!t on the highest level.
Originally posted by trumptman
Circumstance does not create a man, it reveals him.
See, this joke of a signature is exactly what I am talking about. Gosh, which example should I go with? How about the most high-profile of them all, GWB? I guess what your sig says is true, if you mean that it 'reveals him' as a total moron who always gotten everything given to him no matter how hard he's screwed it up (up to and including national foreign and domestic policy of the US). Otherwise, it's total BS.
Originally posted by giant
Lying again. Why is it not surprising?
What, is this just a debating club? Just because there is information available elsewhere doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Possible additional cuts in the California education budget
Yes, that's another $4,000 in tuition on top of the 25% increase since the beginning of the year.
I really doubt that the California Community Colleges support the tuition waiver. I know someone cited a quote by an administrator "so it must be true". Many community colleges had to cancel their summer programs and, in fact, have reduced their course offerings.
Or maybe this support is just like some current California renewable energy incentive programs. One one hand, they are approved, but on the other, they are not funded.
Originally posted by giant
See, this joke of a signature is exactly what I am talking about. Gosh, which example should I go with? How about the most high-profile of them all, GWB? I guess what your sig says is true, if you mean that it 'reveals him' as a total moron who always gotten everything given to him no matter how hard he's ****ed it up (up to and including national foreign and domestic policy of the US). Otherwise, it's total BS.
Get up on the wrong side of the bed again?
I could not be around this kind of attitude day after day. Find something positive to say just once..
There are plenty of people I don't care for as you don't care for GWB but for God's sake do I go around every waking min of every day complaining about them? NO..
Just "Try" for us all to take a break from the GWB is a rotten stupid excuse of a president speech. Give us a one week break at least.
Fellowship
Originally posted by Skipjack
What, is this just a debating club? Just because there is information available elsewhere doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Possible additional cuts in the California education budget
Yes, that's another $4,000 in tuition on top of the 25% increase since the beginning of the year.
I really doubt that the California Community Colleges support the tuition waiver. I know someone cited a quote by an administrator "so it must be true". Many community colleges had to cancel their summer programs and, in fact, have reduced their course offerings.
Or maybe this support is just like some current California renewable energy incentive programs. One one hand, they are approved, but on the other, they are not funded.
From the article...
UC Vice President for the Budget Larry Hirshman said that would mean no more new enrollments, a possible $4,000 a year increase in current student fees and layoffs of more than 13,000 faculty and staff.
I know and watch these guys around here complaining that an illegal immigrant might actually have to pay their tuition at a friggin' community college when thousands are denied education and under threat of being laid off.
Perhaps they will get a clue when the entire tax base has left the state.
Nick
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I could not be around this kind of attitude day after day. Find something positive to say just once..
Well, then explain to trumptman why not to bait and attack everyone on AO. Of course, both you and he are peas in a pod with the gazillion bait threads.
I find it really interesting how selective your criticism is here, as well.
There are plenty of people I don't care for as you don't care for GWB but for God's sake do I go around every waking min of every day complaining about them? NO..
It applies (if you want claim Bush didn't screw up everything he touched, I have a 3Ghz G5 to sell you on ebay), and funny you should be the one to pretend someone is stuck on a subject.
BTW: your criticism suggests you may believe in the 'success in a vacuum' theory. Newer suburbs almost seem designed to make people believe in it.
Originally posted by trumptman
From the article...
Maybe you should have 'from the article'd the following, rather than selectively quoting:
Financial officials say none of those ideas are viable or make sense.
Originally posted by giant
Maybe you should have 'from the article'd the following, rather than selectively quoting:
Yep ol'UC Vice President for the Budget Larry Hirshman must be a Bushie/Fox News/Rush Limbaugh caller himself.
Not financially viable means they can't do it and still maintain the services they provide...or it might bring about lawsuits, etc. It might require them to consider going to unions to get concessions, they might have to break contracts, etc.
It is not viable for them to provide what they offer today with 20% less money. It doesn't make sense that you can function in the current manner you do as a university.
Oh I know, lets fix this 20% short fall by making it a 23% shortfall so we can give more money to community colleges so that illegal immigrants can get calgrants so they don't have to pay for tuition.
Because money is just that stuff you take from people to give to others...
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
From the article...
I know and watch these guys around here complaining that an illegal immigrant might actually have to pay their tuition at a friggin' community college when thousands are denied education and under threat of being laid off.
Perhaps they will get a clue when the entire tax base has left the state.
Nick
Stop whining already. Seems that the only thing left for you is to confuse and somehow attempt to tie issues together. How many times do we need to explain to you that the cuts are for UC and CSU universities and not community colleges?
Show me where it says people are being denied COMMUNITY college education while illegals aren't...otherwise stop confusing the "bill" with the cuts. You can't really be that dense man, seriously.
God save us!!! The entire tax base is leaving the state!!!
Originally posted by trumptman
Not financially viable means...
OK. I understand that you are just a teacher and don't ever have to deal with committees and proposals and allocation of millions of dollars. But if you ever do get into that situation, you will become a little clearer as to what the article is saying. In short, the governor's office asked for a 20% cut in all agencies. UC can't have this happen, and is responding as such. This happens daily, no, hourly in any large organization. This is why organizations and companies have meetings. If I got vacation time for every hour I dealt with unreasonable administrative requests, I would work a week a year (OK, it's an exaggeration, but you get the point).
Point being, this is a bit different than the doomsday scenario you are painting. Furthermore, if it's that bad, don't you have much, much, much bigger things to be focusing on than this small 'hot topic' issue.
Oh I know, lets fix this 20% short fall by making it a 23% shortfall so we can give more money to community colleges so that illegal immigrants can get calgrants so they don't have to pay for tuition.
No, how about you fix it by looking at what brought you here and working to solve it on the macro side, rather than focusing on the small issue you use just to assert your political views. In the long run, educating these people is probably a good thing.
I agree that it certainly should be based on merit, in which case we could easily be talking about only a very small amount of money compared to what you people are dealing with the whole state budget crisis.
On a side note, if illegal aliens are allowed to attend state schools in CA they really are already getting aid. If it's anything like New York the tuition the student pays is probably only about 1/3rd of the actual cost of that students education. The other two thirds are picked up by the state and local governments.
Originally posted by Gilsch
Stop whining already. Seems that the only thing left for you is to confuse and somehow attempt to tie issues together. How many times do we need to explain to you that the cuts are for UC and CSU universities and not community colleges?
Show me where it says people are being denied COMMUNITY college education while illegals aren't...otherwise stop confusing the "bill" with the cuts. You can't really be that dense man, seriously.
God save us!!! The entire tax base is leaving the state!!!
I already posted the link that showed that due to budget cuts and tuition increases over 40,000 fewer people were attending California community colleges. If they don't offer the classes and you can't afford them, then you are effectively denied whether you care to admit it or not.
The article also had information detailing the cuts that have occured at the community college level.
Likewise you can keep buring your head in the sand with sarcastic snips, but some of us have the reality of the situation.
California Exodus
Here let me quote you a bit...
For the first time since the federal government began tracking such things, more people have moved out of California to other states than have arrived from the other 49. The moving vans headed east and north represented a net of 775,000 people who gave up on California, according to reports Wednesday from the Census Bureau.
Despite that, the state's population is up, the Census Bureau says, thanks to in-state births and people moving to California from other countries. Between 1990 and 2000, California's population rose to just under 33.9 million. The number of foreign-born residents increased by more than one-third to almost 8.9 million.
In state births... hmmm... think those kids are paying taxes yet? That is over three quarter of a million people leaving the state and taking their ability to pay taxes, their businesses, their retirements, etc. with them.
Nick
Exodus II
The decade-long exodus to other states accelerated last year for the first time since 1994, as Californians fled smog, traffic, a rising cost of living and an imploding job market that have become the dark side of the Golden State. Along with them they took tax revenue the cash-strapped state government badly needs. Economists say the departures are a sign California continues to lose its competitive edge over other states, a chronic problem the state's future governor will face.
Really you make this too easy...
Nick
Originally posted by trick fall
if illegal aliens are allowed
I would say encouraged, and encouraged in order to avoid having a large population of US citizens in california living uneducated, unskilled and unproductive.
It's not like this is a 'reward' of any kind. Republicans are just framing it as such to try to discredit it through a dishonest portrayal of the aim of the legislation. So what else is new?
Can you please show how this directly effects US born individuals?
Originally posted by bunge
trumptman,
Can you please show how this directly effects US born individuals?
Cal grants, community colleges, CSU and UC schools are all funded by the state of California. The proposal is to allow illegal immigrants to apply for CalGrants to pay for their tuition at community colleges.
I've obviously lived in the state and watched the progression of these bills over time. I have supported them when they have made sense. At one time illegal immigrants couldn't even attend the state college. Then they were granted permission to attend state universities but the state would not subsidize their education, thus they were going to be charged the out of state rate.
Now we have passed laws that allow them to attend universities at the subsidized tuition price. The only thing that is left is the $11 per unit. (Raising to $18 I read earlier in part due to the budget cuts)
The pot of money that is the state budget covers all these areas. As you know we have been running a bit of a deficit here lately. 38 billion to be precise. The budget Davis signed to get by this year was, for education, a mixture of cuts and fee raises. For the state as a whole it was tripling of car fees, the raising of other fees, service cuts and borrowing about 8-10 billion dollars.
The UC system has in some ways always turned away some students. However the CSU system has, though really never had to turn away students who qualified. This year, due to cuts, they have turned away an estimated 30,000 students.
The cuts at the community college have turned away 40,000 students and UC 5,000. They are being asked to consider even larger cuts on top of these original cuts.
So in short there isn't enough money to go around. Everyone is taking hits whether it be not being admitted, not having classes offered, etc.
When you propose a new benefit (financial aid for illegal immigrants) it takes from this already profoundly constrained pot of money. Likewise what they often do is raise the tuition (as they have already done) and attempt to collect more from those who can pay to distribute to those who cannot via financial aid. However there is a diminishing return and students leave whether it because they can't afford it or because they can and flee for a university where the tuition is twice as much, but the classes are available.
During a crunch everyone is being asked to do something so yes U.S. citizens are effected. The least illegal immigrants can do is pay the already heavily subsidized tuition for attending community college.
Nick
Originally posted by giant
I would say encouraged, and encouraged in order to avoid having a large population of US citizens in california living uneducated, unskilled and unproductive.
It's not like this is a 'reward' of any kind. Republicans are just framing it as such to try to discredit it through a dishonest portrayal of the aim of the legislation. So what else is new?
They are illegal. They BROKE THE LAW to come here. Why the **** are we rewarding them?
Originally posted by trumptman
When you propose a new benefit (financial aid for illegal immigrants) it takes from this already profoundly constrained pot of money.
So the link between illegal immigrants and these other cuts is *that* strong? Wow!
So basically any and every expenditure affects everything else, but instead of looking at the big picture you're blaming the illegals for all these woes.
Do you have any actual numbers for how many will qualify under this scheme? Because the way I see it there are two scenarios:
A) You don't have many illegal immigrants who have spent at least three years in a Californian high school, graduated with a diploma, have applied for state residency and can prove they are living in poverty.
In this case few will apply so it is a miniscule expenditure compared with other governmental/education mistakes/excesses. So no problem.
If you do have large numbers of people in this situation then you have big problems that will not be solved by denying these people a higher education (or by the money 'saved' by doing this).
It is done solely to punish them in an act of petty revenge (probably for their parents' actions) while ignoring the obvious negative impacts of this policy for the state as a whole.