No kidding. You're wrong unless 3 years of HS don't qualify you as a state resident. I can't believe you're posting this on my dime.
Of course I am serious. BTW, nice way to ignore the fact that you and giant couldn't comprehend the difference between state residency and legal immigrant. Your argument was that they had applied for and received a form of legal documentation from the INS. I pointed out this wasn't so and so now you are left with... you can't be serious.
Likewise no one here argued about the state residency issue. You claimed that they had registered with the INS and were on their way to becoming a legal immigrant or naturalized citizen. You were absolutely wrong on that point.
Why would an educator want California high school grads to be denied a higher education?
And why do you think it is a good idea to have bright teenagers unable to fulfil their potential?
Sounds dangerous to me.
I didn't say to deny them education. Nice strawman though. I said in a year where we have to turn away 35,000+ students, they should be able to cough up $165.
If paying $165 for 15 units of college sounds dangerous to you then the whole state must be pretty dangerous. Because that is what they charge all residents including illegal immigrants. I haven't advocated denying them admission, charging them nonresident fees or anything like that. I have said that they can pony up the $165.
Quote:
Anyone that manages to finish a minimum of 3 years of high school in California and get a diploma while day laboring deserves everything they get. Jings! It was only 8 short paragraphs, you could have had the decency to read them, seeing how it was *your* link.
But I'm glad you're not racist. You just want to introduce a caste system to prevent the illegals that support the Californian economy from ever getting more than a high school diploma. [/B]
Again nice straw man.. if expecting $165 is too much, then I guess I expect too much.
Why don't you leave behind the empty language of debate with your empty-headed topics, huh? You basically admitted to being a troll who distorts legitimate news in your first post. It turned out that your "free college ONLY for illegal immigrants" slant was a bunch of crock because it ended up a lot more limited than what you deceptively led on...
Now- giant, bunge, midwinter and i would like you to get the facts straight one of these days.
Troll: To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding.
Sorry, but that certainly fits you and your gazillion bait threads much better than anyone else on currently on AI.
Blame my parents for the decidedly un-sing-songy quality of my name. It's a damned spondee for crying out loud (two consecutive accented syllables).
Anyway,
This is an interesting topic and I know you wouldn't have brought it up unless you honestly thought it was a bad idea. What's the argument, in short, against the measure? What are the main opponents saying about it?
I didn't say to deny them education. Nice strawman though. I said in a year where we have to turn away 35,000+ students,
Lying again. Why is it not surprising?
From the article you cited:
Quote:
CSU has made a formal decision to turn away qualified students this spring -- a move expected to keep out as many as 30,000 students across the 23-campus system, the nation's largest.
UC leaders likely will follow in the fall of 2004 with plans to freeze enrollment growth for freshmen, transfer students and graduate students. That decision would block entry for an estimated 5,000 eligible students.
That means 35000 at the highest estimate, not '35000+' as you claimed the second time (up from your first claim of '30000+').
Furthermore, I am unaware of any such program here in Illinois where a high school graduate is garaunteed a spot in any state university. Please, let me know if there is one, but my sister went to a state school and defintely had to apply and be accepted. California is suspending the policy of automatically accepting ALL high school graduates into a tiered system. From what I can tell, the recent quotas do not make california's high school students any more deprived than any others.
Troll: To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding.
Sorry, but that certainly fits you and your gazillion bait threads much better than anyone else on currently on AI.
Commenting would be what you do to my threads... in troll like fashion multiple times per day.
However as I have stated I don't mind because you keep the information you claim to hate in view all day. Since there is nothing substative contributed that is contradicting to what I posted it is actually sort of nice. The name calling, well it just rolls of my back. I mean you see my name is Nick. You can imagine how many things can be rhymed with that. I suppose the only thing that could have been worse worse is making me a boy named Sue.
Likewise giant you are welcome to post issues you think relevent for discussion. Even if I were to disagree with them I would hope you would post them.
Amazing how illegal has no meaning in the eyes of California democrats.
Why don't they (CA democrats) just put a sign on their homes "welcome illegals,,, free food, free lodging"
I welcome legal immigrants... I welcome legal visitors from other countries but I think something is very wrong with allowing this "anything goes" attitude towards people that are in this country illegally.
I'm not sure I know anyone that didn't go to school with some sort of financial aid regardless of income level. If you guys have a problem with it in california, figure out a more effective way than bitching about illegal immigrants, your eternal scapegoats.
No I claim that it is a straight up lie no matter how you read it.
if your parents combined income is above 60,000 you dont get shit as far as financial aid from state schools
also, to apply for residency IS NOT easy and its a REAL PAIN IN THE ASS. you can only leave the state for days a time, otherwise papers must be filed, its a long process, you have to have a permenant address, you have to have your own income, your parents cant claim you as a dependant anymore.....its a mess. for an 18 or 19 year old it doesnt make sense.
To attend public school, elementary through college, one should have to prove legal residence. Want an education? Come here LEGALLY. I'm tired of everyone condoning ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.
Unless you can prove otherwise....the lamentable cuts will affect EVERYONE equally. Are you stating that "illegals" will not be affected by the cuts? If so prove it. Can you point me to where the article states that?
Also, where does it say that students are receiving lower grant amounts in the article? Do you have a link for that?
If illegals before had to pay $165 and now would get to pay nothing, does that sound like they are being affected negatively affected by the cuts?
As for the lower grant amounts, there are different ways to measure that and I haven't found one cumulative link that would show it all. The entire state college system last year took a 13% cut. If you grant stayed the same while they raised tuition 30% is that really the same grant? If they gave you the same grant amount but didn't offer the classes you need, is that the same amount? If they raise Cal Grant A 20% (with 30% increase), and cut B is that a cut?
The point is that with massive cuts and turning away students, they can pay $165.
Quote:
Where does it say that "illegals" will have priority over legals regarding enrollment? Seems to me the cuts will affect enrollment equally unless you're one of the top 12.5% of HS graduates(they're promised a seat at one of the 9 UC campuses), or the Top third(guaranteed seat at one of the CSU campuses).[/b]
The situation is not good for students coming out of HS. It really sucks and I feel badly for them. I guess they'll have to get better grades or attend a community college and then transfer for the time being.
[/b]
I never said illegals would get priority enrollment. However being enrolled and having to pay $165 is still better than not even being able to get into the CSU/UC system.
However as you mentioned those folks will likely go to community colleges. Don't you think that this will still negatively impact illegal immigrants? The classes are more likely to be full or not even offered, etc.
There just isn't a way to get around the limited resources argument. It comes back in one form or another.
Quote:
Go hide trumptman!!! The illegals are coming to get you!!!! I really hope you put your bias aside when dealing with the immigrant kids at your school.
You know what's ironic folks? That this guy who is so concerned with state monies posts from an elementary school (he said he worked at an elementary school surrounded by democrats on another thread) during school hours.
My and all tax paying Californians' dollars at work.
You keep mentioning work, what makes you think I am at work today?
First I have no bias, the quote you made reference to was me being sarcastic about the fearmongering going on in the name of illegal immigrants. Don't you want to feel safe? Better give them a license! I know they have a license from their own country and are safe drivers. It is a made up wedge issue. No news reports have been filed noting the large number of accidents involving illegal immigrants.
It is just you and others on here. Asking for $156 becomes "denying them any higher education."
It is a crock. My students nor would anyone I know think it racially biased to ask for $156 dollars for 15 units of college education.
If illegals before had to pay $165 and now would get to pay nothing, does that sound like they are being affected negatively affected by the cuts?
Since the bill that we're discussing only applies to community colleges and the cuts apply to UC and CSU unis the answer is quite obviously yes. Any legal or illegal will be affected by said cuts unless they have good grades.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
If you grant stayed the same while they raised tuition 30% is that really the same grant? If they gave you the same grant amount but didn't offer the classes you need, is that the same amount? If they raise Cal Grant A 20% (with 30% increase), and cut B is that a cut?
You answered you own question. The grant stays the same.
Quote:
I never said illegals would get priority enrollment. However being enrolled and having to pay $165 is still better than not even being able to get into the CSU/UC system.
You more than implied it from this post:
Quote:
Origially posted by trumptman
There are folks being denied entrance to schools, receiving lower grant amounts, being forced to take out loans, and dropping out of school due to the costs. Yet we have a bill to allow illegal immigrants not only to attend, not only to be subsidized, but to have the remaining small costs given to them with a financial aid grant.
You're comparing apples to oranges.Folks, legal and illegal are being denied entrance to UC and CSU unis unless they have good grades. The bill would work for community colleges, not the UC and CSU universities. Again.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
However as you mentioned those folks will likely go to community colleges. Don't you think that this will still negatively impact illegal immigrants? The classes are more likely to be full or not even offered, etc.
It may. You're making a lot of assumptions there though. I won't disagree with you on them because they MAY very well become applicable in some cases.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You keep mentioning work, what makes you think I am at work today?
I originally said that I hoped you were on your break or enjoying a day off since I would hate for you to be posting this stuff on the tax payer's dime. Since you never replied I assumed you were posting from the school...
Quote:
First I have no bias, the quote you made reference to was me being sarcastic about the fearmongering going on in the name of illegal immigrants. Don't you want to feel safe? Better give them a license! I know they have a license from their own country and are safe drivers. It is a made up wedge issue. No news reports have been filed noting the large number of accidents involving illegal immigrants.
You have no bias??? lol...Please. Just read your original full-of-gigantic-holes post. Then read what you just posted, unproven, about the "large number of accidents involving illegal immigrants". Since accidents are statistically recorded (not necessarily having anything to do with "news reports"), I'm sure you can point me to an article that notes such large numbers of accidents. Otherwise you'll just be talking out of your biased derriere again.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
It is just you and others on here. Asking for $156 becomes "denying them any higher education."
You're all over the place now. You were the one bitching about illegals not having to pay the $156. But now, $156 is not a lot of money. LOL make up your mind.
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
It is a crock. My students nor would anyone I know think it racially biased to ask for $156 dollars for 15 units of college education.
LMAO. Yeah, your elementary school students eh? I'm glad you've polled those young children on it.They should know.
I don't think anyone is calling your bias on the $156 point. We're calling it on your obsessive attitude, your phrasing, your logic in the threads.
all i got was a university fees scholarship, basically all i could get as an out of stater, its about 300 bucks each semester. gee thanks, sure helps with the 34,000 tuition
all i got was a university fees scholarship, basically all i could get as an out of stater, its about 300 bucks each semester. gee thanks, sure helps with the 34,000 tuition
A couple of questions, since that seems strange. Are these unsubsidized or subsidized loans or both? Are you still considered a dependent by your parents? If possible, you should get your parents NOT to claim you as a dependent on their taxes this year. This will affect your ability to get aid. He said, as someone with $70,000 in student loans.
Comments
Originally posted by midwinter
They're not going to those campuses. Here's part of the first sentence of the article:
"A bill that would allow undocumented immigrants to apply for financial aid at California community colleges..."
Cheers
Scott
Thank you Midwinter. I knew that. I forgot to delete that part from my initial post.
Originally posted by giant
Here's some more detail:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s..._1n13fees.html
And it only applies to community colleges
If it ONLY applies to local community colleges, then I redact my original post. I would, however, like to see a minimal GPA for qualification though.
Originally posted by Gilsch
WTF are you talking about? You can't be serious.
No kidding. You're wrong unless 3 years of HS don't qualify you as a state resident. I can't believe you're posting this on my dime.
Of course I am serious. BTW, nice way to ignore the fact that you and giant couldn't comprehend the difference between state residency and legal immigrant. Your argument was that they had applied for and received a form of legal documentation from the INS. I pointed out this wasn't so and so now you are left with... you can't be serious.
Likewise no one here argued about the state residency issue. You claimed that they had registered with the INS and were on their way to becoming a legal immigrant or naturalized citizen. You were absolutely wrong on that point.
Nick
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
Why would an educator want California high school grads to be denied a higher education?
And why do you think it is a good idea to have bright teenagers unable to fulfil their potential?
Sounds dangerous to me.
I didn't say to deny them education. Nice strawman though. I said in a year where we have to turn away 35,000+ students, they should be able to cough up $165.
If paying $165 for 15 units of college sounds dangerous to you then the whole state must be pretty dangerous. Because that is what they charge all residents including illegal immigrants. I haven't advocated denying them admission, charging them nonresident fees or anything like that. I have said that they can pony up the $165.
Anyone that manages to finish a minimum of 3 years of high school in California and get a diploma while day laboring deserves everything they get. Jings! It was only 8 short paragraphs, you could have had the decency to read them, seeing how it was *your* link.
But I'm glad you're not racist. You just want to introduce a caste system to prevent the illegals that support the Californian economy from ever getting more than a high school diploma. [/B]
Again nice straw man.. if expecting $165 is too much, then I guess I expect too much.
Nick
Why don't you leave behind the empty language of debate with your empty-headed topics, huh? You basically admitted to being a troll who distorts legitimate news in your first post. It turned out that your "free college ONLY for illegal immigrants" slant was a bunch of crock because it ended up a lot more limited than what you deceptively led on...
Now- giant, bunge, midwinter and i would like you to get the facts straight one of these days.
Originally posted by Northgate
I would, however, like to see a minimal GPA for qualification though.
I totally agree with this.
-applenut
Originally posted by trumptman
He sings that same ol'troll song.
Troll: To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding.
Sorry, but that certainly fits you and your gazillion bait threads much better than anyone else on currently on AI.
Originally posted by trumptman
Shawn, shawn..
He sings that same ol'troll song.
Nothing to add again I see.
Nick
Blame my parents for the decidedly un-sing-songy quality of my name. It's a damned spondee for crying out loud (two consecutive accented syllables).
Anyway,
This is an interesting topic and I know you wouldn't have brought it up unless you honestly thought it was a bad idea. What's the argument, in short, against the measure? What are the main opponents saying about it?
Originally posted by trumptman
I didn't say to deny them education. Nice strawman though. I said in a year where we have to turn away 35,000+ students,
Lying again. Why is it not surprising?
From the article you cited:
CSU has made a formal decision to turn away qualified students this spring -- a move expected to keep out as many as 30,000 students across the 23-campus system, the nation's largest.
UC leaders likely will follow in the fall of 2004 with plans to freeze enrollment growth for freshmen, transfer students and graduate students. That decision would block entry for an estimated 5,000 eligible students.
That means 35000 at the highest estimate, not '35000+' as you claimed the second time (up from your first claim of '30000+').
Furthermore, I am unaware of any such program here in Illinois where a high school graduate is garaunteed a spot in any state university. Please, let me know if there is one, but my sister went to a state school and defintely had to apply and be accepted. California is suspending the policy of automatically accepting ALL high school graduates into a tiered system. From what I can tell, the recent quotas do not make california's high school students any more deprived than any others.
Originally posted by giant
Troll: To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding.
Sorry, but that certainly fits you and your gazillion bait threads much better than anyone else on currently on AI.
Commenting would be what you do to my threads... in troll like fashion multiple times per day.
However as I have stated I don't mind because you keep the information you claim to hate in view all day. Since there is nothing substative contributed that is contradicting to what I posted it is actually sort of nice. The name calling, well it just rolls of my back. I mean you see my name is Nick. You can imagine how many things can be rhymed with that. I suppose the only thing that could have been worse worse is making me a boy named Sue.
Likewise giant you are welcome to post issues you think relevent for discussion. Even if I were to disagree with them I would hope you would post them.
Nick
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Amazing how illegal has no meaning in the eyes of California democrats.
Why don't they (CA democrats) just put a sign on their homes "welcome illegals,,, free food, free lodging"
I welcome legal immigrants... I welcome legal visitors from other countries but I think something is very wrong with allowing this "anything goes" attitude towards people that are in this country illegally.
Fellowship
I'm scared. I agree with you.
Originally posted by giant
I'm not sure I know anyone that didn't go to school with some sort of financial aid regardless of income level. If you guys have a problem with it in california, figure out a more effective way than bitching about illegal immigrants, your eternal scapegoats.
No I claim that it is a straight up lie no matter how you read it.
if your parents combined income is above 60,000 you dont get shit as far as financial aid from state schools
also, to apply for residency IS NOT easy and its a REAL PAIN IN THE ASS. you can only leave the state for days a time, otherwise papers must be filed, its a long process, you have to have a permenant address, you have to have your own income, your parents cant claim you as a dependant anymore.....its a mess. for an 18 or 19 year old it doesnt make sense.
this proposal is bullshit
Originally posted by Gilsch
Unless you can prove otherwise....the lamentable cuts will affect EVERYONE equally. Are you stating that "illegals" will not be affected by the cuts? If so prove it. Can you point me to where the article states that?
Also, where does it say that students are receiving lower grant amounts in the article? Do you have a link for that?
If illegals before had to pay $165 and now would get to pay nothing, does that sound like they are being affected negatively affected by the cuts?
As for the lower grant amounts, there are different ways to measure that and I haven't found one cumulative link that would show it all. The entire state college system last year took a 13% cut. If you grant stayed the same while they raised tuition 30% is that really the same grant? If they gave you the same grant amount but didn't offer the classes you need, is that the same amount? If they raise Cal Grant A 20% (with 30% increase), and cut B is that a cut?
The point is that with massive cuts and turning away students, they can pay $165.
Where does it say that "illegals" will have priority over legals regarding enrollment? Seems to me the cuts will affect enrollment equally unless you're one of the top 12.5% of HS graduates(they're promised a seat at one of the 9 UC campuses), or the Top third(guaranteed seat at one of the CSU campuses).[/b]
The situation is not good for students coming out of HS. It really sucks and I feel badly for them. I guess they'll have to get better grades or attend a community college and then transfer for the time being.
[/b]
I never said illegals would get priority enrollment. However being enrolled and having to pay $165 is still better than not even being able to get into the CSU/UC system.
However as you mentioned those folks will likely go to community colleges. Don't you think that this will still negatively impact illegal immigrants? The classes are more likely to be full or not even offered, etc.
There just isn't a way to get around the limited resources argument. It comes back in one form or another.
Go hide trumptman!!! The illegals are coming to get you!!!! I really hope you put your bias aside when dealing with the immigrant kids at your school.
You know what's ironic folks? That this guy who is so concerned with state monies posts from an elementary school (he said he worked at an elementary school surrounded by democrats on another thread) during school hours.
My and all tax paying Californians' dollars at work.
You keep mentioning work, what makes you think I am at work today?
First I have no bias, the quote you made reference to was me being sarcastic about the fearmongering going on in the name of illegal immigrants. Don't you want to feel safe? Better give them a license! I know they have a license from their own country and are safe drivers. It is a made up wedge issue. No news reports have been filed noting the large number of accidents involving illegal immigrants.
It is just you and others on here. Asking for $156 becomes "denying them any higher education."
It is a crock. My students nor would anyone I know think it racially biased to ask for $156 dollars for 15 units of college education.
Nick
Originally posted by applenut
if your parents combined income is above 60,000 you dont get shit as far as financial aid from state schools
do you mean scholarships or do you mean loans?
Originally posted by trumptman
If illegals before had to pay $165 and now would get to pay nothing, does that sound like they are being affected negatively affected by the cuts?
Since the bill that we're discussing only applies to community colleges and the cuts apply to UC and CSU unis the answer is quite obviously yes. Any legal or illegal will be affected by said cuts unless they have good grades.
Originally posted by trumptman
If you grant stayed the same while they raised tuition 30% is that really the same grant? If they gave you the same grant amount but didn't offer the classes you need, is that the same amount? If they raise Cal Grant A 20% (with 30% increase), and cut B is that a cut?
You answered you own question. The grant stays the same.
I never said illegals would get priority enrollment. However being enrolled and having to pay $165 is still better than not even being able to get into the CSU/UC system.
You more than implied it from this post:
Origially posted by trumptman
There are folks being denied entrance to schools, receiving lower grant amounts, being forced to take out loans, and dropping out of school due to the costs. Yet we have a bill to allow illegal immigrants not only to attend, not only to be subsidized, but to have the remaining small costs given to them with a financial aid grant.
You're comparing apples to oranges.Folks, legal and illegal are being denied entrance to UC and CSU unis unless they have good grades. The bill would work for community colleges, not the UC and CSU universities. Again.
Originally posted by trumptman
However as you mentioned those folks will likely go to community colleges. Don't you think that this will still negatively impact illegal immigrants? The classes are more likely to be full or not even offered, etc.
It may. You're making a lot of assumptions there though. I won't disagree with you on them because they MAY very well become applicable in some cases.
Originally posted by trumptman
You keep mentioning work, what makes you think I am at work today?
I originally said that I hoped you were on your break or enjoying a day off since I would hate for you to be posting this stuff on the tax payer's dime. Since you never replied I assumed you were posting from the school...
First I have no bias, the quote you made reference to was me being sarcastic about the fearmongering going on in the name of illegal immigrants. Don't you want to feel safe? Better give them a license! I know they have a license from their own country and are safe drivers. It is a made up wedge issue. No news reports have been filed noting the large number of accidents involving illegal immigrants.
You have no bias??? lol...Please. Just read your original full-of-gigantic-holes post. Then read what you just posted, unproven, about the "large number of accidents involving illegal immigrants". Since accidents are statistically recorded (not necessarily having anything to do with "news reports"), I'm sure you can point me to an article that notes such large numbers of accidents. Otherwise you'll just be talking out of your biased derriere again.
Originally posted by trumptman
It is just you and others on here. Asking for $156 becomes "denying them any higher education."
Originally posted by trumptman
It is a crock. My students nor would anyone I know think it racially biased to ask for $156 dollars for 15 units of college education.
LMAO. Yeah, your elementary school students eh? I'm glad you've polled those young children on it.They should know.
I don't think anyone is calling your bias on the $156 point. We're calling it on your obsessive attitude, your phrasing, your logic in the threads.
Originally posted by midwinter
do you mean scholarships or do you mean loans?
loans
all i got was a university fees scholarship, basically all i could get as an out of stater, its about 300 bucks each semester. gee thanks, sure helps with the 34,000 tuition
Originally posted by applenut
loans
all i got was a university fees scholarship, basically all i could get as an out of stater, its about 300 bucks each semester. gee thanks, sure helps with the 34,000 tuition
A couple of questions, since that seems strange. Are these unsubsidized or subsidized loans or both? Are you still considered a dependent by your parents? If possible, you should get your parents NOT to claim you as a dependent on their taxes this year. This will affect your ability to get aid. He said, as someone with $70,000 in student loans.
Cheers
Scott