That's really not true. Dells are pretty reliable as far as PCs go, and very price competitive when you use their coupons.
Okay, I was trying to avoid posting in this thread, but I can't help it. Dell makes shitty products. My monitor I got through them kept having problems (a few months after I got it). I tried e-mailing them, but they kept forgetting we were already in a conversation. Each time they would ask me for my information and order ID, etc. After a few unhelpful e-mails, I just called them. They made me jump through hoops to get a new one. I knew it was the monitors problem, but they kept making me do tests.
Second, they took for f'ing ever to ship my iPod (this was just after the new design came out). They also tried multiple time to cancel my order.
Finally, I was working for someone who bought a Dell computer (I offered to build her one) and Dell-branded AIO printer. When I was setting up the printer, I knew it was a POS. It felt like a childs toy. I later learned that it broke within two months.
Way to go Dell! They may be cheap, but as they say, "You get what you pay for."
adpowers, anecdote vs anecdote. I bought *three* current-gen iPods from dell.com right after they were released... all with coupons, they all arrived within a few business days.
I have a Dell M992 19" CRT right next to me. It's pretty fugly but it works just fine. In fact it's much clearer than the Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 920 on my Mac even though the Mitsu is an aperture-grille CRT and the Dell is a shadow-mask unit. I got the 19" Dell for $155.
As for the printer, Lexmark isn't noted for their unreliability, just lackluster print quality.
And as for tech support, sure, you have to wrangle with any company's bottom tier techs. You just have to know to elevate your call to a higher-up or even one of their "engineers." For example, it took over 6 months for Apple to resolve the GeForce4 MX driver / screen flash glitch that plagued almost every QuickSilver 2002 owner.
Fat chance getting an Apple service technician to come directly to your house though.
I'm somewhat familiar with DELL products: a couple of Inspiron/Latitude notebooks, Axim PDA, Dimension desktops, etc.
IMHO, ALL the PC makers pretty much use similar components and patch their name on the outside: HP, Gateway, Toshiba, etc. What sets them apart is PRICE and SERVICE. As many horror stories as people have about DELL service, there are twice as many horror stories from other companies - no company is perfect. DELL sells THOUSANDS of computers every day, of course some of them will be defective. I've had my share of problems with DELL but I have to say, they've been fair and accommodating and EVERY problem I've had has been addressed.
Sure they're not innovative but they make decent PCs with very good service (on-site warranties) and very competitive prices.
I say, let them sell their new IPOD knock-offs; I'll still enjoy my 20GB IPOD every day.
I got many peripherals from Dell including my 21" Trinitron, 20GB iPod, Axim PDA, and a 120GB HD - all through Dell and all at the <u>absolutely lowest retail price</u> possible at the time. Much thanks to sites like techbargains, gotapex, Eugene, and most importantly, DELL.
The last time I tried to build a PC - it is suppose to be a quiet system - the end result is still not quite as quiet as Dell's. My next (PC) purchase will be a 400SC. For the price of iPod, I will get a 3 ghz machine that I will use to make DivX backups of my DVD that I can take when travelling with my iBook. OSX is great but when you need cheap raw power to use for video encoding, I don't think you can go wrong the 3 ghz Intel (and the cheap prices of Dell).
You got the cheap part right. Crappy? Sure, you hear a anecdote here and there but one is bound to hear them when you are the #1 PC makers.
I had a Dell in 1997. Pretty solid machine, AMAZING support. Today, I hear a different story. I just helped a friend buy a iBook, she decided to go with Apple because her best friend had just bought a Dell laptop and it was apparantly a piece of crap. It's been a while since I've seen a Dell, so I can't say for sure. I highly doubt that you can find "one success story for every horror". I don't think they have many of each, they make machines that are just cheap with "good enough" quality, nothing more, nothing less.
As great as Dell is, they are a slave in the industry - their hands are tied. They buy all the pieces from everyone else and slap it together. They load whatever OS M$ gives them. This is why they or any P.C. manufacturer can't compete with the iPod: Devices that work seemlessly together is practically impossible on the P.C. side, this drawback will only become more and more evident, as Apple integrates their products even more tightly together. Dell is a well run business, but they can only remain competitive as long as computers remain drones in the work place, and not sophisticated, well integrated "digital hubs" which Apple is turning them into.
As great as Dell is, they are a slave in the industry - their hands are tied. They buy all the pieces from everyone else and slap it together. They load whatever OS M$ gives them. This is why they or any P.C. manufacturer can't compete with the iPod: Devices that work seemlessly together is practically impossible on the P.C. side, this drawback will only become more and more evident, as Apple integrates their products even more tightly together. Dell is a well run business, but they can only remain competitive as long as computers remain drones in the work place, and not sophisticated, well integrated "digital hubs" which Apple is turning them into.
Nice sentiment, but a load of horse shiat. Apple is just as much a slave. They to buy everything from someone else and slap it all together, or did you think they manufacture everything (every component) themselves. Yeah, Apple puts some work into chipsets and mobo's, but so do most first tier PC makers like Dell/IBM/Compaq-HP/Sony.
The whole widget part has some truth to it, but it isn't why the iPod is great. The iPod is great because it brings the same design values Apple has a name for to the music player segment. Throwing an iTunes onto a PC wouldn't be difficult and making it work seamlessly with a software (PC) portal isn't that hard, nor would it be too difficult for such a device to exist on the PC. It's not so much the whole widget as it is the people working on it that make such products possible.
And yet I walked into a branch of the National Australia Bank, the largest bank in Australia, and saw that they used Dell. Running Windows!! In a bank - a place that requires security!!
Oh well...
Meanwhile I don't think that Dell would put too much of a dent on the iPod. I've been stopped on the street before, buy: "What model iPod is that, mate?". I doubt a Dell MP3 player would attract that attention... m.
Duh? It's called child labor. That and using cheaper shit. How innovative. Lots of other companies employ this approach. Look at any brand x in any market. Sharp for example has particularly crappy products. Dell is famous for using cheaper screws. But how long do their products last? My iPod has survived a beating nothing should survive. And now I'm selling it to get a new one (when they get a mic)!! FCUK YOU Dell!
Wow that sure was dramatic... But I honestly don't think dell is all that bad, sure there is minimal innovation when compared to apple but their product line is OK, service is quite good and price is hard to beat. I admire Dell for their Sophisticated Supply chain setup they have going. I honestly don't think dell is that bad... Apple is great too BTW, I just thought I would share my thoughts on Dell....
Throwing an iTunes onto a PC wouldn't be difficult and making it work seamlessly with a software (PC) portal isn't that hard, nor would it be too difficult for such a device to exist on the PC. It's not so much the whole widget as it is the people working on it that make such products possible.
Son ... you just proved my point.
First, I realize that Apple does not manufacture their products - at least they design them. However, I was referring to the software.
And yes, you are indeed wrong. You say that "throwing iTunes on a P.C. is no problem at all" Well, try telling that to Nomad. They can come up with their own encryption technology that doesn't kill battery life, develope their own MP3 player, make it work all seamlessly with an on-line store. Sorry, they just don't have the resources for that.
Kinda obvious isn't it?
And after throwing all those resources at it (because it's just a matter of people afterall) in the end ... it will only work with their player, and no others.
It's still not because of the "mac" platform, rather the people behind it, which is all I argue. Nomad /creative might not have the resources, Sony or M$ might not have the will, but that's different, it's driven by ideology, not by inherent limitations of windows. If someone wanted to make an MP3 platform with a more consumer friendly digital rights scheme, it wouldn't be hard.
In short, it's not the mac that makes the iPod great, it's the same people/principles that make the mac great that make the iPod great.
Not numbers of people, but talent, and permission -- what you let those people do, what you ask them to do for you.
Apple will keep on making a great iPod BOTH for "mac" and for "windows." If Windows itself were such a limitation to product development, then there wouldn't be an iPod for Windows or an iTMS (for Windows) on the the way. Any delay is more political than technical, the same reason certain M$ products only find their way to the mac late, or incomplete.
PS: I agree with you about the software to an extent, but what Apple spends in R&D for both HW and SW, a Dell spends in R&D and licensing, and the total expenditure is a lot closer than you think.
BTW, a fair bit of Apple's software "development" consists of buying the technologies/companies outright, thought they then work their integration/ergo/UI magic on said technologies.
Yeah, Apple puts some work into chipsets and mobo's, but so do most first tier PC makers like Dell/IBM/Compaq-HP/Sony.
Wow, more misinformation from Matsu. Um, NO. While those companies implement their own BIOSes and tell the OEMs which components to include, Dell has almost no other involvement in the design and manufacture of motherboards and chipsets. Jesus Christ. Most OEM boards come from ECS, MSI and a maybe one other OEM board maker in Taiwan. And Dell has NO direct hand in the design of any of the chipsets. They use off the shelf Intel stuff exclusively for their desktops, a mix of Intel and ServerWorks/Broadcom in their servers, etc.
PS: I agree with you about the software to an extent, but what Apple spends in R&D for both HW and SW, a Dell spends in R&D and licensing, and the total expenditure is a lot closer than you think.
Dell spends more than Apple on "R&D," yes. However, Dell is many times as large as Apple any way you figure it (head count, facilities, marketshare, market cap, etc.) They should be spending a lot more...a lot lot lot more. Look at IBM's R&D dollar figures for inspiration.
Hardly misinformation, bios and testing isn't work? (though they do a bit more than that) I didn't say they design the things from the ground up, I said they still put some work into them, Apple puts more work into them, but Apple doesn't do it all alone either, they get (have gotten) help from IBM/moto in the past, and have also contracted out mobo production.
R&D money is R&D money, if it pays 1 employee to do research and development or it pays ten, it's still the same expenditure. It may in fact be wiser to spread that money over more people. If, as you say, Dell has many many more people to pay, it also means they have many more people working on stuff at any given time. You assume, when a company release figures for R&D expensitures, that they aren't talking about receptionists and telephone support, or web page and online order people, you assume they're talking about people, materials and facilities related to research and development. So, as with other things, if Dell's R&D is bigger, then they're getting more (quantity) for their dollar. Hardly a hinderance. Are they getting more quality? Depends how you define it: clearly, Dell spends a lot of time and money trying to figure out how to make stuff cost less. This is just as valuable to the consumer as a company trying to come up with new stuff. You need both, and between Apple and Dell, we have both. The industry copies Apple, but a lot of the industry also copies Dell -- when Dell figures out how to make the same thing cheaper, eventually, that knowledge filters down to other manufacturers and everyone can make things cheaper (do they really have a choice?)
Scott, well, that's a pretty good looking MP3 player. The interface looks clean, not as clean as Apple, but pretty good. If it uses the same 1.8" HDD's, with it's built in voice recording, similar menu system/size/weight, but SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER price (we don't know yet, hopefully a much lower price) then, for many people, it may end up being a better MP3 proposition than the iPod.
I say good. This is also part of progress. Apple got it out there, and if some other company, whomever they are, can drive prices down and reach more people, I think that's great. By the same token, if a company wants to hang on to their insane profits once a true competitor appears, I say, fine, fvck'em, may the new guys steal as many sales as possible, and if the innovators don't offer something new, a new substantial advantage, or a new competitive price, then they deserve to lose every one of those sales and more.
You said chipsets and motherboards...and no, even their BIOSes are outsourced to Phoenix, American Megatrends, etc. That R&D is mostly accounting...heh.
Apple puts more work into them, but Apple doesn't do it all alone either, they get (have gotten) help from IBM/moto in the past, and have also contracted out mobo production.
Comments
Originally posted by Eugene
That's really not true. Dells are pretty reliable as far as PCs go, and very price competitive when you use their coupons.
Okay, I was trying to avoid posting in this thread, but I can't help it. Dell makes shitty products. My monitor I got through them kept having problems (a few months after I got it). I tried e-mailing them, but they kept forgetting we were already in a conversation. Each time they would ask me for my information and order ID, etc. After a few unhelpful e-mails, I just called them. They made me jump through hoops to get a new one. I knew it was the monitors problem, but they kept making me do tests.
Second, they took for f'ing ever to ship my iPod (this was just after the new design came out). They also tried multiple time to cancel my order.
Finally, I was working for someone who bought a Dell computer (I offered to build her one) and Dell-branded AIO printer. When I was setting up the printer, I knew it was a POS. It felt like a childs toy. I later learned that it broke within two months.
Way to go Dell! They may be cheap, but as they say, "You get what you pay for."
I have a Dell M992 19" CRT right next to me. It's pretty fugly but it works just fine. In fact it's much clearer than the Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 920 on my Mac even though the Mitsu is an aperture-grille CRT and the Dell is a shadow-mask unit. I got the 19" Dell for $155.
As for the printer, Lexmark isn't noted for their unreliability, just lackluster print quality.
And as for tech support, sure, you have to wrangle with any company's bottom tier techs. You just have to know to elevate your call to a higher-up or even one of their "engineers." For example, it took over 6 months for Apple to resolve the GeForce4 MX driver / screen flash glitch that plagued almost every QuickSilver 2002 owner.
Fat chance getting an Apple service technician to come directly to your house though.
IMHO, ALL the PC makers pretty much use similar components and patch their name on the outside: HP, Gateway, Toshiba, etc. What sets them apart is PRICE and SERVICE. As many horror stories as people have about DELL service, there are twice as many horror stories from other companies - no company is perfect. DELL sells THOUSANDS of computers every day, of course some of them will be defective. I've had my share of problems with DELL but I have to say, they've been fair and accommodating and EVERY problem I've had has been addressed.
Sure they're not innovative but they make decent PCs with very good service (on-site warranties) and very competitive prices.
I say, let them sell their new IPOD knock-offs; I'll still enjoy my 20GB IPOD every day.
The last time I tried to build a PC - it is suppose to be a quiet system - the end result is still not quite as quiet as Dell's. My next (PC) purchase will be a 400SC. For the price of iPod, I will get a 3 ghz machine that I will use to make DivX backups of my DVD that I can take when travelling with my iBook. OSX is great but when you need cheap raw power to use for video encoding, I don't think you can go wrong the 3 ghz Intel (and the cheap prices of Dell).
Originally posted by klinux
You got the cheap part right. Crappy? Sure, you hear a anecdote here and there but one is bound to hear them when you are the #1 PC makers.
I had a Dell in 1997. Pretty solid machine, AMAZING support. Today, I hear a different story. I just helped a friend buy a iBook, she decided to go with Apple because her best friend had just bought a Dell laptop and it was apparantly a piece of crap. It's been a while since I've seen a Dell, so I can't say for sure. I highly doubt that you can find "one success story for every horror". I don't think they have many of each, they make machines that are just cheap with "good enough" quality, nothing more, nothing less.
As great as Dell is, they are a slave in the industry - their hands are tied. They buy all the pieces from everyone else and slap it together. They load whatever OS M$ gives them. This is why they or any P.C. manufacturer can't compete with the iPod: Devices that work seemlessly together is practically impossible on the P.C. side, this drawback will only become more and more evident, as Apple integrates their products even more tightly together. Dell is a well run business, but they can only remain competitive as long as computers remain drones in the work place, and not sophisticated, well integrated "digital hubs" which Apple is turning them into.
Originally posted by the cool gut
As great as Dell is, they are a slave in the industry - their hands are tied. They buy all the pieces from everyone else and slap it together. They load whatever OS M$ gives them. This is why they or any P.C. manufacturer can't compete with the iPod: Devices that work seemlessly together is practically impossible on the P.C. side, this drawback will only become more and more evident, as Apple integrates their products even more tightly together. Dell is a well run business, but they can only remain competitive as long as computers remain drones in the work place, and not sophisticated, well integrated "digital hubs" which Apple is turning them into.
Nice sentiment, but a load of horse shiat. Apple is just as much a slave. They to buy everything from someone else and slap it all together, or did you think they manufacture everything (every component) themselves. Yeah, Apple puts some work into chipsets and mobo's, but so do most first tier PC makers like Dell/IBM/Compaq-HP/Sony.
The whole widget part has some truth to it, but it isn't why the iPod is great. The iPod is great because it brings the same design values Apple has a name for to the music player segment. Throwing an iTunes onto a PC wouldn't be difficult and making it work seamlessly with a software (PC) portal isn't that hard, nor would it be too difficult for such a device to exist on the PC. It's not so much the whole widget as it is the people working on it that make such products possible.
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
READ: 'Cheap and crappy products.'
And yet I walked into a branch of the National Australia Bank, the largest bank in Australia, and saw that they used Dell. Running Windows!! In a bank - a place that requires security!!
Oh well...
Meanwhile I don't think that Dell would put too much of a dent on the iPod. I've been stopped on the street before, buy: "What model iPod is that, mate?". I doubt a Dell MP3 player would attract that attention... m.
Originally posted by Aquatic
Wow that sure was dramatic...
Apple better hurry up with the Music Store for Windows (and Canada...please!).
My guess on price is $199-$249. We'll know later today I think.
Originally posted by Matsu
Throwing an iTunes onto a PC wouldn't be difficult and making it work seamlessly with a software (PC) portal isn't that hard, nor would it be too difficult for such a device to exist on the PC. It's not so much the whole widget as it is the people working on it that make such products possible.
Son ... you just proved my point.
First, I realize that Apple does not manufacture their products - at least they design them. However, I was referring to the software.
And yes, you are indeed wrong. You say that "throwing iTunes on a P.C. is no problem at all" Well, try telling that to Nomad. They can come up with their own encryption technology that doesn't kill battery life, develope their own MP3 player, make it work all seamlessly with an on-line store. Sorry, they just don't have the resources for that.
Kinda obvious isn't it?
And after throwing all those resources at it (because it's just a matter of people afterall) in the end ... it will only work with their player, and no others.
In short, it's not the mac that makes the iPod great, it's the same people/principles that make the mac great that make the iPod great.
Not numbers of people, but talent, and permission -- what you let those people do, what you ask them to do for you.
Apple will keep on making a great iPod BOTH for "mac" and for "windows." If Windows itself were such a limitation to product development, then there wouldn't be an iPod for Windows or an iTMS (for Windows) on the the way. Any delay is more political than technical, the same reason certain M$ products only find their way to the mac late, or incomplete.
PS: I agree with you about the software to an extent, but what Apple spends in R&D for both HW and SW, a Dell spends in R&D and licensing, and the total expenditure is a lot closer than you think.
BTW, a fair bit of Apple's software "development" consists of buying the technologies/companies outright, thought they then work their integration/ergo/UI magic on said technologies.
Originally posted by Matsu
Yeah, Apple puts some work into chipsets and mobo's, but so do most first tier PC makers like Dell/IBM/Compaq-HP/Sony.
Wow, more misinformation from Matsu. Um, NO. While those companies implement their own BIOSes and tell the OEMs which components to include, Dell has almost no other involvement in the design and manufacture of motherboards and chipsets. Jesus Christ. Most OEM boards come from ECS, MSI and a maybe one other OEM board maker in Taiwan. And Dell has NO direct hand in the design of any of the chipsets. They use off the shelf Intel stuff exclusively for their desktops, a mix of Intel and ServerWorks/Broadcom in their servers, etc.
Originally posted by Matsu
PS: I agree with you about the software to an extent, but what Apple spends in R&D for both HW and SW, a Dell spends in R&D and licensing, and the total expenditure is a lot closer than you think.
Dell spends more than Apple on "R&D," yes. However, Dell is many times as large as Apple any way you figure it (head count, facilities, marketshare, market cap, etc.) They should be spending a lot more...a lot lot lot more. Look at IBM's R&D dollar figures for inspiration.
R&D money is R&D money, if it pays 1 employee to do research and development or it pays ten, it's still the same expenditure. It may in fact be wiser to spread that money over more people. If, as you say, Dell has many many more people to pay, it also means they have many more people working on stuff at any given time. You assume, when a company release figures for R&D expensitures, that they aren't talking about receptionists and telephone support, or web page and online order people, you assume they're talking about people, materials and facilities related to research and development. So, as with other things, if Dell's R&D is bigger, then they're getting more (quantity) for their dollar. Hardly a hinderance. Are they getting more quality? Depends how you define it: clearly, Dell spends a lot of time and money trying to figure out how to make stuff cost less. This is just as valuable to the consumer as a company trying to come up with new stuff. You need both, and between Apple and Dell, we have both. The industry copies Apple, but a lot of the industry also copies Dell -- when Dell figures out how to make the same thing cheaper, eventually, that knowledge filters down to other manufacturers and everyone can make things cheaper (do they really have a choice?)
Scott, well, that's a pretty good looking MP3 player. The interface looks clean, not as clean as Apple, but pretty good. If it uses the same 1.8" HDD's, with it's built in voice recording, similar menu system/size/weight, but SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER price (we don't know yet, hopefully a much lower price) then, for many people, it may end up being a better MP3 proposition than the iPod.
I say good. This is also part of progress. Apple got it out there, and if some other company, whomever they are, can drive prices down and reach more people, I think that's great. By the same token, if a company wants to hang on to their insane profits once a true competitor appears, I say, fine, fvck'em, may the new guys steal as many sales as possible, and if the innovators don't offer something new, a new substantial advantage, or a new competitive price, then they deserve to lose every one of those sales and more.
Originally posted by Matsu
Apple puts more work into them, but Apple doesn't do it all alone either, they get (have gotten) help from IBM/moto in the past, and have also contracted out mobo production.
Production has nothing to do with R&D.
Originally posted by MacsRGood4U
My guess on price is $199-$249. We'll know later today I think.
Is that an official picture? If so, it's ugly. Just make it beige!
To Dell:
Beige at least goes in harmony. Fake silver and brown look bad together! Apple White-haters, take a look!