No one said turn them away. Let me make that clear that in this thread I have never said to turn away that child or deny her an abortion.
My point is telling the child that her boyfriend will go to jail might turn her away to other less pleasant options. PP would do better to get her in the office where they can consult with her on a one on one basis. Getting the child help is the number one concern, not reporting. If they're forced to report and a situation like this arises less children will turn to PP for help and support. I obviously wasn't implying that PP would shut the doors on the children that need help, but 'threatening' to report statutory rape would turn many children away.
In the interests of reducing teen pregnancy, it is important to have the trust of the teens. Snitching to the police about their activities doesn't help with that trust.
Of course, on the other hand, how responsible is it to allow the teen to go back to the 23 year old boyfriend without so much as a single word?
Back to the first hand, the teen is going to be dealing with the 23 year old boyfriend either way so the pregnancy might as well be terminated without revealing the boyfriend instead of having the cycle repeat itself as she raises a little slut of her hown.
My point is telling the child that her boyfriend will go to jail might turn her away to other less pleasant options. PP would do better to get her in the office where they can consult with her on a one on one basis. Getting the child help is the number one concern, not reporting. If they're forced to report and a situation like this arises less children will turn to PP for help and support. I obviously wasn't implying that PP would shut the doors on the children that need help, but 'threatening' to report statutory rape would turn many children away.
How is this different from any other mandated reporting situation? I have asked that and not gotten an answer. Isn't it possible a parent won't seek medical attention for a child who is injured if they think they might be reported on?
Isn't it possibel a parent will pull a out of school if they think the school will report abuse?
There is a compelling public interest that overrides privacy concerns here. You haven't addressed this.
Apparently my post needs repeating since Trumptman is not address the actual issues involved here:
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Most states and the AMA recognize pregnant minors above the age of 14 as autonomous and having the same rights to confidentiality as those of legal age. This position was taken after research demonstrated that minors were more likely to seek medical treatment for pregnancy if they had confidentiality. Laws requiring disclosure discourage minors from seeking needed health care.
The staff members at Planned Parenthood are promising confidentiality to help the fictional girl get needed medical treatment, and portraying it as somehow malicious is deceitful.
The woman who wrote that article is not fairly addressing the position of the AMA or Planned Parenthood, regardless of whether you agree with that position or not. My understanding is that the biggest issue is whether the minor will be too afraid to seek needed medical care, not whether that fear is justified.
I believe I have a good bioethics book that addresses this issue by having two point/counter-point articles on this topic. I will post the name if I have time to dig it up later.
You're flat out wrong. The parents don't have to bring up the charges. The state will do so acting on the child's behalf. This is also true for fully adult women and domestic violence charges. The man can be prosecuted even if she has fully recanted her story and declared no desire to press charges.
Nice spin. I did not actually say spousal abuse, and without a witness most states won't pursue cases like the ones of spousal abuse, i.e. it is obvious I have been beaten, do I want to press charges, no? you sure? yes? Nothing the state can do when it has no witness. And I said if it is evident that someone in the family (perhaps gaurdianship is too strong a relationship), then teachers in the case of children are obliged to report any such events.
If you believe the state had the inclination let alone the ability to pursue cases like the ones you mention in your spin then you should be railing against spousal abuse shelters as well, where I know for a fact that they dont report any events unless they are specifically asked to by the victim.
So no, Nick, I was not dead wrong, even in your spin.
The parents in your hypothetical case are responsible for the minor in their household so they are hence responsible for reporting that this relationship exists between their horny daughter and her big bad 20 year old boy toy. I
It is the policy of Planned Parenthood Federation of America to assure that adolescents have access to information about human sexuality and to reproductive health care services. Adolescents should be encouraged, when possible, to involve their parents and/or other responsible and concerned adults in their reproductive decision-making. Planned Parenthood opposes any limitation or restriction on the access of adolescents to confidential reproductive health services, including contraception and abortion. Planned Parenthood also supports a range of activities designed to reduce adolescent pregnancy and childbearing, such as expanded sexuality education, increased service accessibility, enhanced public awareness, behavioral research, and the development of contraceptive methods specially suited to adolescents.
[Adopted 1984]
Thank you, trumptman, for unwittingly reaffirming what I've always believed in. When do we eat?
Of course, on the other hand, how responsible is it to allow the teen to go back to the 23 year old boyfriend without so much as a single word?
I agree. But I think once in a Planned Parenthood office the counselors would encourage her to do the right thing. That's my hope anyway. PP has no interest in helping the child keep the rape a secret if they can get the care to the child that needs the care.
trumptman,
Is PP mandated to report statutory rape in whatever state this incident happened?
There are laws requiring confidentiality in providing medical services, even if the patient is a minor - in particular, I think most states require confidentiality (i.e., no parental notification) for abortions.
\\
I'm working on my Emergency Medical Services dergree right now, on my way to being a paramedic. The law states that a woman (no matter what age) has confidentially up until the pont where she gives birth. At that point, if she is still under the age of 18 and still living with a legal guardian the rape (statutory or otherwise) must be reported to DCFS, the police, and the parents/guardian. At this point if the parents/guardians don't press charges, the state will.
Apparently my post needs repeating since Trumptman is not address the actual issues involved here:
I did address it. I have said several times that fear of reporting does not preclude us from reporting in several other matters. The societal interest in preventing abuse overrides the right to privacy in these matters.
Nice spin. I did not actually say spousal abuse, and without a witness most states won't pursue cases like the ones of spousal abuse, i.e. it is obvious I have been beaten, do I want to press charges, no? you sure? yes? Nothing the state can do when it has no witness. And I said if it is evident that someone in the family (perhaps gaurdianship is too strong a relationship), then teachers in the case of children are obliged to report any such events.
If you believe the state had the inclination let alone the ability to pursue cases like the ones you mention in your spin then you should be railing against spousal abuse shelters as well, where I know for a fact that they dont report any events unless they are specifically asked to by the victim.
So no, Nick, I was not dead wrong, even in your spin.
The parents in your hypothetical case are responsible for the minor in their household so they are hence responsible for reporting that this relationship exists between their horny daughter and her big bad 20 year old boy toy. I
You live on a foreign planet don't you.
Actually people have seen me rail a bit against abuse shelters because they are practically domestic violence sweatshops. They will help women get restraining orders, file charges do whatever is necessary. They will do this even without any proof which is what I rail against.
I didn't say they would make a grown woman initially press charges against her will. I said if she does and then changes her mind and recants, they will still press on with the charges. So you attempt to change what I say has fallen on deaf ears. Likewise if the charges are there they just supeona her to show up in court and testify. If she ignores the supeona a warrent goes out for her arrest.
The state can do plenty without a witness. How many witnesses do you think there typically are to crimes like rape? They can use physical and DNA evidence. They can take photographs of the bruises and scratches. They can question coworkers, friends and family about her mental state before and after the incident. There is plenty of evidence out there.
Thank you, trumptman, for unwittingly reaffirming what I've always believed in. When do we eat?
Quote:
Adolescents should be encouraged, when possible, to involve their parents and/or other responsible and concerned adults in their reproductive decision-making. Planned Parenthood opposes any limitation or restriction on the access of adolescents to confidential reproductive health services, including contraception and abortion.
I really don't even get your point. They can make a statement claiming support for involving parents but they have opposed every parental notification bill ever brought up. When possible = never in their actions regardless of what they may have written down. Likewise I haven't advocated that they report the abortion to the parents. I have advocated that they report the rape or molestation to CPS or the police.
Likewise adolescent is defined in two manners. One is someone who is a teenager. However it is also defined as someone who is undergoing puberty.
I have had 10 year old girls start getting their period in my class. In fact about half my fifth grade girls get their period already.
Are they adolescent? Would planned parenthood give them an abortion to cover up what a molesting father or older boy/man has done to them? They are 10 and 11 Shawn.
I agree. But I think once in a Planned Parenthood office the counselors would encourage her to do the right thing. That's my hope anyway. PP has no interest in helping the child keep the rape a secret if they can get the care to the child that needs the care.
trumptman,
Is PP mandated to report statutory rape in whatever state this incident happened?
California has mandatory reporting not only for health care practitioners, but even for clergy.
California has mandatory reporting not only for health care practitioners, but even for clergy.
Nick
OK, if by law this PP was supposed to report and they didn't/wouldn't, then the broke the law. A bad law in my opinion, but one with its heart in the right place.
The overwhelming majority of the clinics told her she could come in for an abortion with complete confidentiality; they would not report her boyfriend for statutory rape.
Hmm... different states have different laws. I wonder if the states she called were specifically chosen... hmmm... no!
The overwhelming majority of the clinics told her she could come in for an abortion with complete confidentiality; they would not report her boyfriend for statutory rape.
Hmm... different states have different laws. I wonder if the states she called were specifically chosen... hmmm... no!
Or maybe California was targeted with regard to asking for "clarification" on a very clear law because it has a Democratic controlled (60%+ are Democrats in both houses)Assembly, Senate, and Executive branch and thus they are more likely to be declared "not a health care provider" or something of that nature.
The innuendo can be spun both ways.
It still sickens me that you would support nonreporting of clear abuse no matter how well intentioned the act may be in which it is discovered.
It still sickens me that you would support nonreporting of clear abuse no matter how well intentioned the act may be in which it is discovered.
Life isn't fair, PP seems to not report but encourage those who are abused to report. If that is what is needed to make sure people still come in to get treated and talk to someone then that's what needs to happen.
The last thing you want to do is discourage girls from coming in.
Life isn't fair, PP seems to not report but encourage those who are abused to report. If that is what is needed to make sure people still come in to get treated and talk to someone then that's what needs to happen.
The last thing you want to do is discourage girls from coming in.
Yes and you don't want to discourage children from getting an education, or parents from getting their children medical care.
Yet those groups are required to report. Even if they end up inconveniencing the innocent they have to report.
Is the 13 year old going to become unpregnant by some other means? She will still get the abortion. Afterwards she MAY, have to put up with her parents finding out about the abortion, or deal with her 22 year old boyfriend being questioned as to why he so enjoys 7th grade girls with braces.
The assumptions about who finds out and how it is dealt with are named by Planned Parenthood as an argument against reporting. If it is possible to give a girl an abortion without her parents knowing, then it is possible to interview her about potential abuse without her parents knowing.
Now suppose the worse case and they found out. The abortion is already performed. The parents can't do anything about that. They can't pressure her to have the baby, etc. Perhaps they will take more of an interest in who their child "dates" or how she was able to be pressured into having sex with a 22 year old to begin with. Maybe they will get her some counseling that helps her understand that a 22 year old boy doesn't have anything in common with her besides wanting to screw her.
It is amazing to me that you can think of no way reporting this would help these girls. Abortion doesn't "help" the problem. It allows the consequences of it to be delayed to another day. The fact that this girl thinks attention and sex with a 22 year old is love and caring won't change with that abortion. It won't make her realize that she doesn't have to give up sex to get love and be wanted. It won't make her realize that a man should treasure her brain as well.
Comments
Originally posted by trumptman
No one said turn them away. Let me make that clear that in this thread I have never said to turn away that child or deny her an abortion.
My point is telling the child that her boyfriend will go to jail might turn her away to other less pleasant options. PP would do better to get her in the office where they can consult with her on a one on one basis. Getting the child help is the number one concern, not reporting. If they're forced to report and a situation like this arises less children will turn to PP for help and support. I obviously wasn't implying that PP would shut the doors on the children that need help, but 'threatening' to report statutory rape would turn many children away.
Of course, on the other hand, how responsible is it to allow the teen to go back to the 23 year old boyfriend without so much as a single word?
Back to the first hand, the teen is going to be dealing with the 23 year old boyfriend either way so the pregnancy might as well be terminated without revealing the boyfriend instead of having the cycle repeat itself as she raises a little slut of her hown.
Originally posted by bunge
My point is telling the child that her boyfriend will go to jail might turn her away to other less pleasant options. PP would do better to get her in the office where they can consult with her on a one on one basis. Getting the child help is the number one concern, not reporting. If they're forced to report and a situation like this arises less children will turn to PP for help and support. I obviously wasn't implying that PP would shut the doors on the children that need help, but 'threatening' to report statutory rape would turn many children away.
How is this different from any other mandated reporting situation? I have asked that and not gotten an answer. Isn't it possible a parent won't seek medical attention for a child who is injured if they think they might be reported on?
Isn't it possibel a parent will pull a out of school if they think the school will report abuse?
There is a compelling public interest that overrides privacy concerns here. You haven't addressed this.
Nick
Originally posted by giant
Most states and the AMA recognize pregnant minors above the age of 14 as autonomous and having the same rights to confidentiality as those of legal age. This position was taken after research demonstrated that minors were more likely to seek medical treatment for pregnancy if they had confidentiality. Laws requiring disclosure discourage minors from seeking needed health care.
The staff members at Planned Parenthood are promising confidentiality to help the fictional girl get needed medical treatment, and portraying it as somehow malicious is deceitful.
The woman who wrote that article is not fairly addressing the position of the AMA or Planned Parenthood, regardless of whether you agree with that position or not. My understanding is that the biggest issue is whether the minor will be too afraid to seek needed medical care, not whether that fear is justified.
I believe I have a good bioethics book that addresses this issue by having two point/counter-point articles on this topic. I will post the name if I have time to dig it up later.
Originally posted by trumptman
You're flat out wrong. The parents don't have to bring up the charges. The state will do so acting on the child's behalf. This is also true for fully adult women and domestic violence charges. The man can be prosecuted even if she has fully recanted her story and declared no desire to press charges.
Nice spin. I did not actually say spousal abuse, and without a witness most states won't pursue cases like the ones of spousal abuse, i.e. it is obvious I have been beaten, do I want to press charges, no? you sure? yes? Nothing the state can do when it has no witness. And I said if it is evident that someone in the family (perhaps gaurdianship is too strong a relationship), then teachers in the case of children are obliged to report any such events.
If you believe the state had the inclination let alone the ability to pursue cases like the ones you mention in your spin then you should be railing against spousal abuse shelters as well, where I know for a fact that they dont report any events unless they are specifically asked to by the victim.
So no, Nick, I was not dead wrong, even in your spin.
The parents in your hypothetical case are responsible for the minor in their household so they are hence responsible for reporting that this relationship exists between their horny daughter and her big bad 20 year old boy toy. I
From Planned Parenthood Federation of America: Mission and Policy Statements
Adolescent Services
It is the policy of Planned Parenthood Federation of America to assure that adolescents have access to information about human sexuality and to reproductive health care services. Adolescents should be encouraged, when possible, to involve their parents and/or other responsible and concerned adults in their reproductive decision-making. Planned Parenthood opposes any limitation or restriction on the access of adolescents to confidential reproductive health services, including contraception and abortion. Planned Parenthood also supports a range of activities designed to reduce adolescent pregnancy and childbearing, such as expanded sexuality education, increased service accessibility, enhanced public awareness, behavioral research, and the development of contraceptive methods specially suited to adolescents.
[Adopted 1984]
Thank you, trumptman, for unwittingly reaffirming what I've always believed in. When do we eat?
From: bunge, giant, and keyboard's wilsongate war-room
Originally posted by BR
Of course, on the other hand, how responsible is it to allow the teen to go back to the 23 year old boyfriend without so much as a single word?
I agree. But I think once in a Planned Parenthood office the counselors would encourage her to do the right thing. That's my hope anyway. PP has no interest in helping the child keep the rape a secret if they can get the care to the child that needs the care.
trumptman,
Is PP mandated to report statutory rape in whatever state this incident happened?
Originally posted by BRussell
There are laws requiring confidentiality in providing medical services, even if the patient is a minor - in particular, I think most states require confidentiality (i.e., no parental notification) for abortions.
\\
I'm working on my Emergency Medical Services dergree right now, on my way to being a paramedic. The law states that a woman (no matter what age) has confidentially up until the pont where she gives birth. At that point, if she is still under the age of 18 and still living with a legal guardian the rape (statutory or otherwise) must be reported to DCFS, the police, and the parents/guardian. At this point if the parents/guardians don't press charges, the state will.
Originally posted by giant
Apparently my post needs repeating since Trumptman is not address the actual issues involved here:
I did address it. I have said several times that fear of reporting does not preclude us from reporting in several other matters. The societal interest in preventing abuse overrides the right to privacy in these matters.
Nick
Originally posted by billybobsky
Nice spin. I did not actually say spousal abuse, and without a witness most states won't pursue cases like the ones of spousal abuse, i.e. it is obvious I have been beaten, do I want to press charges, no? you sure? yes? Nothing the state can do when it has no witness. And I said if it is evident that someone in the family (perhaps gaurdianship is too strong a relationship), then teachers in the case of children are obliged to report any such events.
If you believe the state had the inclination let alone the ability to pursue cases like the ones you mention in your spin then you should be railing against spousal abuse shelters as well, where I know for a fact that they dont report any events unless they are specifically asked to by the victim.
So no, Nick, I was not dead wrong, even in your spin.
The parents in your hypothetical case are responsible for the minor in their household so they are hence responsible for reporting that this relationship exists between their horny daughter and her big bad 20 year old boy toy. I
You live on a foreign planet don't you.
Actually people have seen me rail a bit against abuse shelters because they are practically domestic violence sweatshops. They will help women get restraining orders, file charges do whatever is necessary. They will do this even without any proof which is what I rail against.
I didn't say they would make a grown woman initially press charges against her will. I said if she does and then changes her mind and recants, they will still press on with the charges. So you attempt to change what I say has fallen on deaf ears. Likewise if the charges are there they just supeona her to show up in court and testify. If she ignores the supeona a warrent goes out for her arrest.
The state can do plenty without a witness. How many witnesses do you think there typically are to crimes like rape? They can use physical and DNA evidence. They can take photographs of the bruises and scratches. They can question coworkers, friends and family about her mental state before and after the incident. There is plenty of evidence out there.
Nick
Originally posted by ShawnJ
What is the actual position of Planned Parenthood?
From Planned Parenthood Federation of America: Mission and Policy Statements
Thank you, trumptman, for unwittingly reaffirming what I've always believed in. When do we eat?
Adolescents should be encouraged, when possible, to involve their parents and/or other responsible and concerned adults in their reproductive decision-making. Planned Parenthood opposes any limitation or restriction on the access of adolescents to confidential reproductive health services, including contraception and abortion.
I really don't even get your point. They can make a statement claiming support for involving parents but they have opposed every parental notification bill ever brought up. When possible = never in their actions regardless of what they may have written down. Likewise I haven't advocated that they report the abortion to the parents. I have advocated that they report the rape or molestation to CPS or the police.
Likewise adolescent is defined in two manners. One is someone who is a teenager. However it is also defined as someone who is undergoing puberty.
I have had 10 year old girls start getting their period in my class. In fact about half my fifth grade girls get their period already.
Are they adolescent? Would planned parenthood give them an abortion to cover up what a molesting father or older boy/man has done to them? They are 10 and 11 Shawn.
Nick
Originally posted by bunge
I agree. But I think once in a Planned Parenthood office the counselors would encourage her to do the right thing. That's my hope anyway. PP has no interest in helping the child keep the rape a secret if they can get the care to the child that needs the care.
trumptman,
Is PP mandated to report statutory rape in whatever state this incident happened?
California has mandatory reporting not only for health care practitioners, but even for clergy.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
California has mandatory reporting not only for health care practitioners, but even for clergy.
Nick
OK, if by law this PP was supposed to report and they didn't/wouldn't, then the broke the law. A bad law in my opinion, but one with its heart in the right place.
The overwhelming majority of the clinics told her she could come in for an abortion with complete confidentiality; they would not report her boyfriend for statutory rape.
Hmm... different states have different laws. I wonder if the states she called were specifically chosen... hmmm... no!
Originally posted by groverat
From the article:
The overwhelming majority of the clinics told her she could come in for an abortion with complete confidentiality; they would not report her boyfriend for statutory rape.
Hmm... different states have different laws. I wonder if the states she called were specifically chosen... hmmm... no!
Or maybe California was targeted with regard to asking for "clarification" on a very clear law because it has a Democratic controlled (60%+ are Democrats in both houses)Assembly, Senate, and Executive branch and thus they are more likely to be declared "not a health care provider" or something of that nature.
The innuendo can be spun both ways.
It still sickens me that you would support nonreporting of clear abuse no matter how well intentioned the act may be in which it is discovered.
Nick
It still sickens me that you would support nonreporting of clear abuse no matter how well intentioned the act may be in which it is discovered.
Life isn't fair, PP seems to not report but encourage those who are abused to report. If that is what is needed to make sure people still come in to get treated and talk to someone then that's what needs to happen.
The last thing you want to do is discourage girls from coming in.
Originally posted by groverat
Life isn't fair, PP seems to not report but encourage those who are abused to report. If that is what is needed to make sure people still come in to get treated and talk to someone then that's what needs to happen.
The last thing you want to do is discourage girls from coming in.
Yes and you don't want to discourage children from getting an education, or parents from getting their children medical care.
Yet those groups are required to report. Even if they end up inconveniencing the innocent they have to report.
Is the 13 year old going to become unpregnant by some other means? She will still get the abortion. Afterwards she MAY, have to put up with her parents finding out about the abortion, or deal with her 22 year old boyfriend being questioned as to why he so enjoys 7th grade girls with braces.
The assumptions about who finds out and how it is dealt with are named by Planned Parenthood as an argument against reporting. If it is possible to give a girl an abortion without her parents knowing, then it is possible to interview her about potential abuse without her parents knowing.
Now suppose the worse case and they found out. The abortion is already performed. The parents can't do anything about that. They can't pressure her to have the baby, etc. Perhaps they will take more of an interest in who their child "dates" or how she was able to be pressured into having sex with a 22 year old to begin with. Maybe they will get her some counseling that helps her understand that a 22 year old boy doesn't have anything in common with her besides wanting to screw her.
It is amazing to me that you can think of no way reporting this would help these girls. Abortion doesn't "help" the problem. It allows the consequences of it to be delayed to another day. The fact that this girl thinks attention and sex with a 22 year old is love and caring won't change with that abortion. It won't make her realize that she doesn't have to give up sex to get love and be wanted. It won't make her realize that a man should treasure her brain as well.
Nick