Ok, fine. Condom use didn't start until what, the 50's? 60's? HIV was first discovered in the early 80's. So theres some pretty compelling evidence that condom use is what created the AIDS crisis to begin with. Do you see how wide-eyed theories can prove or disprove anything?
The AIDS crisis began because of an infection that spread from the Mt. Elgon region of Africa to Europe and then to the United States in the gay community. Gays were ten years late to the sexual revolution, since the gay rights movement didn't start until Stonewall, at the end of the 1960s, and didn't tend to use condoms because pregnancy was not a concern. Had the government responded quickly to the first HIV and AIDS cases in the 1970s and early 1980s, the crisis in North America might be far less. Of course, since it was only fags who were dying, no one cared, particularly not Ronald Reagan's White House.
However, in Africa, AIDS is spread almost entirely through consensual, heterosexual sex due to a lack of condom usage. These are the countries that will have staggering population collapses -- and the places where the Church is doing "God's work" by fighting education on safe sex.
So now, I can't speak for all Catholics because they all have their own opinions, just the same as non-Catholics. But I have no problem with people doing what the want, where they want. But I will not be an accessory to anything that violates the law that I feel God has set forth for me.
Catholics are not actively trying to take condoms away from people.
No, they're trying to actively block access to them. Just like they did in America, until the Griswold decision.
Ok, fine. Condom use didn't start until what, the 50's? 60's? HIV was first discovered in the early 80's. So theres some pretty compelling evidence that condom use is what created the AIDS crisis to begin with. Do you see how wide-eyed theories can prove or disprove anything?
I am not surprised one iota that a "believer" confuses correlation with causation.
If condom usage and AIDS go so hand in hand, then surely HIV infection rates must be higher for, say, Episcopalians than they are for Catholics, hmmm? Since the Episcopal Church was the first mainstream Protestant body in the United States to say "a-okay" to artificial birth control, back in the 1950s, I believe, their ranks should be crawling with HIV-sufferers by now.
Whereas Catholics, with their no-condom policy, must be the most HIV-free folks on God's green (well, mostly blue) earth.
Of course, that's an absurd notion. But its no more absurd than Jukebox's conception that condoms somehow encourage the spread of the HIV virus.
Frankly, if people would just stay away from Mt. Elgon, this sorta thing wouldn't happen. Stupid African mountains with their stupid super-viruses.
If condom usage and AIDS go so hand in hand, then surely HIV infection rates must be higher for, say, Episcopalians than they are for Catholics, hmmm? Since the Episcopal Church was the first mainstream Protestant body in the United States to say "a-okay" to artificial birth control, back in the 1950s, I believe, their ranks should be crawling with HIV-sufferers by now.
Whereas Catholics, with their no-condom policy, must be the most HIV-free folks on God's green (well, mostly blue) earth.
No, surely this is an EXCELLENT point.
Why don't we look at communities, I don't know, say a country that his put forward a programme called "ABC" (standing for abstinence, being faithful and using a condom) versus places that the condom part has been restricted?
Maybe Ghana versus Nigeria?
Jukebox, let me ask you something. If a country aggressively followed an ABC programme and its neighbour purposefully left out the C part of it, what would you think would happen? What would you guess scientifically captured experimental data would say about those two countries?
Try here. Condom use increased from 61% to 93%, while the number of people going to brothels dropped in half. I guess that kind of refutes your theory that condom use increases promiscuity.
I see it the other way around. Brothel usage dropped because permscuity became a widespread phenomenon that made brothels unnecessary.
and the places where the Church is doing "God's work" by fighting education on safe sex.
They are not "fighting" education on safe sex. They are teaching the Catholic version of safe sex; don't have sex out of wedlock. Again, the only reason you have a problem is that there are a disproportionate number of Catholics out in these third world countries trying to help, as opposed to the religion-of-idealism members that sit in this forum and complain.
No, they're trying to actively block access to them. Just like they did in America, until the Griswold decision.
If they are then thats stupid. Catholics are not going to win anything by taking away peoples freedom of choice. They need to win by means of their compassion. Please don't hold it against Catholisism that some Catholics choose a stupid path.
Again, your getting your view of the Catholic argument from a skewed source. Its not an issue of -spreading- AIDs. The issue is that it doesn't -solve- the problem.
If condom usage and AIDS go so hand in hand, then surely HIV infection rates must be higher for, say, Episcopalians than they are for Catholics, hmmm? Since the Episcopal Church was the first mainstream Protestant body in the United States to say "a-okay" to artificial birth control, back in the 1950s, I believe, their ranks should be crawling with HIV-sufferers by now.
Whereas Catholics, with their no-condom policy, must be the most HIV-free folks on God's green (well, mostly blue) earth.
Of course, that's an absurd notion. But its no more absurd than Jukebox's conception that condoms somehow encourage the spread of the HIV virus.
Frankly, if people would just stay away from Mt. Elgon, this sorta thing wouldn't happen. Stupid African mountains with their stupid super-viruses.
I was merely pointing out the absurdity of the original assertion. But apparently the absurdity was lost on you. Your argument that Catholics must be the most HIV-free folks on earth falls apart when you realize that a large percentage of Catholics ignore the teachings of The Church and use them anyway.
Why don't we look at communities, I don't know, say a country that his put forward a programme called "ABC" (standing for abstinence, being faithful and using a condom) versus places that the condom part has been restricted?
Maybe Ghana versus Nigeria?
Jukebox, let me ask you something. If a country aggressively followed an ABC programme and its neighbour purposefully left out the C part of it, what would you think would happen? What would you guess scientifically captured experimental data would say about those two countries?
Put your money where your mouth is baby.
Great. I will just need a little bit of your help getting started. Please make sure that everybody follows the rules 100%. Let me know when you have that under control.
Great. I will just need a little bit of your help getting started. Please make sure that everybody follows the rules 100%. Let me know when you have that under control.
The Rules:
We examine Ghana against a control West African state that has followed an approach to AIDS that discounts the condom. You may choose this state. You may also choose a state that followed an active approach without the use of condoms if you wish. If you don't, I'll choose one.
We look at the percentage increase or decrease of AIDS in that country during the lifespan of the activity as our benchmark, as given by reputable organisations (I believe we can agree on that; goverment, non-government international agencies, major charities without political backing).
If they are then thats stupid. Catholics are not going to win anything by taking away peoples freedom of choice.
Catholicism is a religion that's all about control and fealty to ecclessial superiors. The Catholic Church hates freedom and equality, as shown by its many actions, both here in the United States (where Catholic legislators passed laws making it illegal for anyone... even non-Catholics... to gain access to condoms in many, many states) and abroad.
Quote:
They need to win by means of their compassion.
As a gay male, please spare me your perverted church's concept of "compassion."
Comments
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Ok, fine. Condom use didn't start until what, the 50's? 60's? HIV was first discovered in the early 80's. So theres some pretty compelling evidence that condom use is what created the AIDS crisis to begin with. Do you see how wide-eyed theories can prove or disprove anything?
The AIDS crisis began because of an infection that spread from the Mt. Elgon region of Africa to Europe and then to the United States in the gay community. Gays were ten years late to the sexual revolution, since the gay rights movement didn't start until Stonewall, at the end of the 1960s, and didn't tend to use condoms because pregnancy was not a concern. Had the government responded quickly to the first HIV and AIDS cases in the 1970s and early 1980s, the crisis in North America might be far less. Of course, since it was only fags who were dying, no one cared, particularly not Ronald Reagan's White House.
However, in Africa, AIDS is spread almost entirely through consensual, heterosexual sex due to a lack of condom usage. These are the countries that will have staggering population collapses -- and the places where the Church is doing "God's work" by fighting education on safe sex.
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
So now, I can't speak for all Catholics because they all have their own opinions, just the same as non-Catholics. But I have no problem with people doing what the want, where they want. But I will not be an accessory to anything that violates the law that I feel God has set forth for me.
Catholics are not actively trying to take condoms away from people.
No, they're trying to actively block access to them. Just like they did in America, until the Griswold decision.
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Ok, fine. Condom use didn't start until what, the 50's? 60's? HIV was first discovered in the early 80's. So theres some pretty compelling evidence that condom use is what created the AIDS crisis to begin with. Do you see how wide-eyed theories can prove or disprove anything?
I am not surprised one iota that a "believer" confuses correlation with causation.
Whereas Catholics, with their no-condom policy, must be the most HIV-free folks on God's green (well, mostly blue) earth.
Of course, that's an absurd notion. But its no more absurd than Jukebox's conception that condoms somehow encourage the spread of the HIV virus.
Frankly, if people would just stay away from Mt. Elgon, this sorta thing wouldn't happen. Stupid African mountains with their stupid super-viruses.
Originally posted by Kirkland
If condom usage and AIDS go so hand in hand, then surely HIV infection rates must be higher for, say, Episcopalians than they are for Catholics, hmmm? Since the Episcopal Church was the first mainstream Protestant body in the United States to say "a-okay" to artificial birth control, back in the 1950s, I believe, their ranks should be crawling with HIV-sufferers by now.
Whereas Catholics, with their no-condom policy, must be the most HIV-free folks on God's green (well, mostly blue) earth.
No, surely this is an EXCELLENT point.
Why don't we look at communities, I don't know, say a country that his put forward a programme called "ABC" (standing for abstinence, being faithful and using a condom) versus places that the condom part has been restricted?
Maybe Ghana versus Nigeria?
Jukebox, let me ask you something. If a country aggressively followed an ABC programme and its neighbour purposefully left out the C part of it, what would you think would happen? What would you guess scientifically captured experimental data would say about those two countries?
Put your money where your mouth is baby.
Originally posted by bunge
Wow.
Wow.
Try here. Condom use increased from 61% to 93%, while the number of people going to brothels dropped in half. I guess that kind of refutes your theory that condom use increases promiscuity.
I see it the other way around. Brothel usage dropped because permscuity became a widespread phenomenon that made brothels unnecessary.
Originally posted by Kirkland
and the places where the Church is doing "God's work" by fighting education on safe sex.
They are not "fighting" education on safe sex. They are teaching the Catholic version of safe sex; don't have sex out of wedlock. Again, the only reason you have a problem is that there are a disproportionate number of Catholics out in these third world countries trying to help, as opposed to the religion-of-idealism members that sit in this forum and complain.
Originally posted by Kirkland
No, they're trying to actively block access to them. Just like they did in America, until the Griswold decision.
If they are then thats stupid. Catholics are not going to win anything by taking away peoples freedom of choice. They need to win by means of their compassion. Please don't hold it against Catholisism that some Catholics choose a stupid path.
Originally posted by tonton
Anyone still think condoms help spread AIDS?
Again, your getting your view of the Catholic argument from a skewed source. Its not an issue of -spreading- AIDs. The issue is that it doesn't -solve- the problem.
Originally posted by BR
I am not surprised one iota that a "believer" confuses correlation with causation.
Your biggotry is nothing short of astounding.
Originally posted by Kirkland
If condom usage and AIDS go so hand in hand, then surely HIV infection rates must be higher for, say, Episcopalians than they are for Catholics, hmmm? Since the Episcopal Church was the first mainstream Protestant body in the United States to say "a-okay" to artificial birth control, back in the 1950s, I believe, their ranks should be crawling with HIV-sufferers by now.
Whereas Catholics, with their no-condom policy, must be the most HIV-free folks on God's green (well, mostly blue) earth.
Of course, that's an absurd notion. But its no more absurd than Jukebox's conception that condoms somehow encourage the spread of the HIV virus.
Frankly, if people would just stay away from Mt. Elgon, this sorta thing wouldn't happen. Stupid African mountains with their stupid super-viruses.
I was merely pointing out the absurdity of the original assertion. But apparently the absurdity was lost on you. Your argument that Catholics must be the most HIV-free folks on earth falls apart when you realize that a large percentage of Catholics ignore the teachings of The Church and use them anyway.
Originally posted by Harald
No, surely this is an EXCELLENT point.
Why don't we look at communities, I don't know, say a country that his put forward a programme called "ABC" (standing for abstinence, being faithful and using a condom) versus places that the condom part has been restricted?
Maybe Ghana versus Nigeria?
Jukebox, let me ask you something. If a country aggressively followed an ABC programme and its neighbour purposefully left out the C part of it, what would you think would happen? What would you guess scientifically captured experimental data would say about those two countries?
Put your money where your mouth is baby.
Great. I will just need a little bit of your help getting started. Please make sure that everybody follows the rules 100%. Let me know when you have that under control.
Originally posted by segovius
Yeah - someone say something offensive and get Powerdoc in here in his locking capacity.
The cockroaches all want the lights shut back off.
Originally posted by segovius
Yeah - someone say something offensive and get Powerdoc in here in his locking capacity.
I'm two posts away from doing the decent thing and wheeling out a Hitler/Bush comparison.....
There is something better than to ask me or to oblige me to lock a thread : you should just leave it.
I have tried to put a condom in my head in order to protect me from AO : it failed, the condom must be full of holes ...
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Great. I will just need a little bit of your help getting started. Please make sure that everybody follows the rules 100%. Let me know when you have that under control.
The Rules:
We examine Ghana against a control West African state that has followed an approach to AIDS that discounts the condom. You may choose this state. You may also choose a state that followed an active approach without the use of condoms if you wish. If you don't, I'll choose one.
We look at the percentage increase or decrease of AIDS in that country during the lifespan of the activity as our benchmark, as given by reputable organisations (I believe we can agree on that; goverment, non-government international agencies, major charities without political backing).
Simple.
How does that sound?
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
The cockroaches all want the lights shut back off.
Click to turn the light on?
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
If they are then thats stupid. Catholics are not going to win anything by taking away peoples freedom of choice.
Catholicism is a religion that's all about control and fealty to ecclessial superiors. The Catholic Church hates freedom and equality, as shown by its many actions, both here in the United States (where Catholic legislators passed laws making it illegal for anyone... even non-Catholics... to gain access to condoms in many, many states) and abroad.
Quote:
They need to win by means of their compassion.
As a gay male, please spare me your perverted church's concept of "compassion."
Originally posted by segovius
I'm two posts away from doing the decent thing and wheeling out a Hitler/Bush comparison.....
Well, I'm sure this pope likes Bush as much as Pius XII liked Hitler.