Sorry. Doesn't stick. Grassroots works from the bottom up. Not like GWB's campaign this year which works from the top down. Big difference. There are no subtleties or gray areas here. It's either a grassroots movement or it is not.
If I did drugs, I would want some of yours because obviously they are quite powerful.
The Dean campaign is no different from any other campaign. If you want a true example of a grassroots campaign, try the California Recall, oh but of course that was a "circus" even while it turned out record numbers of voters, signed up millions of new voters, and while started by one man, wasn't even about him after the momentum got startec.
No matter what you want to claim, no matter what Dean tries to claim, there wasn't some movement that was already going and just happened to pick him. As I mentioned before he makes it sound like some wave he just happened to catch. It is part of his marketing and you find him using the exact same campaign organizing principles as any other candidate.
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Grassroots is when "the people" decide to do something, NOT when the party tells them too. Having the GOP send out soldiers to sign up new voters is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the people seeking the candidate out on their own. What a crock!
Oh yeah, "the people." Of course "the party" read Al Gore isn't trying to run off the other candidates when he tells them it is best to quit. The GOP is signing up new voters and so is the Democratic Party, you assign sinister motives to even registering people to vote?!? People are seeking someone to represent them. Someone comes along and give them information, or points them to the information. They become involved and vote. Of course on the Dean side this is "grassroots" and on the Republican side, it is the Nazism.
Dean's site is so self-rightous and filled with "thoughtspeak" that it sounds more Orwellian than anything else I have encountered in a long time. He takes so many common principles and assigns them exclusively to himself that it is a little scary.
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Victory Days are democracy in action. Next week Dean supporters will gather in cities and towns across America to work to win the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary by writing letters to undecided voters.
Hmmm.... sounds a little top down to me. I don't see people just spontaniously writing letters. Sounds a little top-down planned to me.
Nice Deanspeak there as well. When you work for Dean, it is Democracy in action. When you don't... well I guess it isn't.
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So begins Howard Dean's pamplet "Common Sense for a New Century," over 500,000 copies of which were distributed this week to Dean supporters across the nation.
Hmmm... top down again. This wasn't some local person who just put some thoughts and feelings into writing and a lot of people discovered they had similar feelings and then, wow Dean does too. It is again, top down.
I could go on and on, but the point is, his campaign is no different than any other, no matter how much jinglism or sloganism he tosses around.
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Roll call? Accountability for sign-up quotas? This is not how the Dean campaign is ran. Not even remotely.
A true, authentic "grassroots" movement does not require regimented quotas and deadlines. The movement itself is highly motivated and often surpasses expectations without such Gestapo tactics. Witness the recent phenomenon of true, authentic grassroots members constantly outraising funds that surpass the Dean campaign's expectations. You can mock all you want, but it's real and it's palpable.
Yes no deadlines and quotas. I mean something like 2 million Americans x $100 is.... well sounds like a quota to me. Of and the list of upcoming fund raisers all planned by and for Deans sounds... so ... grassroots... really.
Then of course there is the TeamDean, where you can be a heavy hitter by using the Dean website, and Dean provided space to raise money for... Dean.. because darn it this isn't top down. What's next... DeanPioneers. Note that you get your own bat to track how much of a "heavy hitter" you are when funding raising for Dean. Of course the percentages on that bat don't represent deadlines, quotas, an expectation or anything else centrally imposed.
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What is your fundraising goal? We appreciate whatever you raise, but remember that $2,000 is the First Team level, and $5,000 is the MVP level. You can change your goal at any time after you register.
Hahahahaha
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"...none of them comes close to matching the sources..." That's f*cking funny!
Also, I noticed the GWB's blog doesn't allow its readers to post comments. There apparently is no forum either. The Dean campaign reads what their membership posts constantly. Several fantastic ideas have emerged from the blog. This will only strengthen the candidate. GWB's site appears to be fearful of opening up its blog to comments. Perhaps they're afraid of Trolls running amok. Oh, well.
Gee Bush allows me to submit questions for online chats whereas Dean doesn't even show any upcoming chats, so he must be a Nazi.
Isn't it great to see how Dean is so different from every other politician. You have the power... to give all your money, time and of course vote to Howard Dean.!
Hey thanks for the link to the Dean Blog. I am learning so much about Dean.
Like this...
Quote:
VERMONT: THE NEW BERMUDA
by Josh Benson
Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: Intellectual Honesty
Grade: F
Deanophiles love to spin their candidate's weaknesses into strengths--arrogance is a sign of conviction, tactlessness is straight-talk, and so forth. So I'm curious to see how they'll spin the latest Dean misstep: hypocrisy.
Turns out that while old Howard has been bashing the coziness of the Bush administration with corporate America, Vermont has quietly become the leading state for a dubious tax-break scheme known as "captive insurance"--under Dean's direction.
As reported in today's Boston Globe, captive insurance is essentially a way to shield corporate profits from state taxes. It starts when a parent company uses one of its own subsidiaries for insurance. The parent company makes premium payments to the subsidiary for the insurance policy, and Vermont takes a piece of those premiums in taxes. So far, so good. But under the Vermont law that Dean pushed, the subsidiary can then reinvest those premiums and keep the resulting profits tax-free. The captive insurance operation may even allow non-Vermont companies to dodge their home states' tax bills.
As a University of Connecticut law school professor told the Globe, "Dean apparently has no problems with tax havens as long as they are in the state of Vermont." And what an operation he's built: by introducing tax breaks and successfully scuttling a proposed Clinton-era regulation designed to stymie the scheme, Dean ensured Vermont is home to more captive insurers than the rest of the country combined. In 2001, he boasted that he wanted Vermont to "overtake Bermuda" as the number one destination for such operations.
Did we mention Enron opened an office in Montpelier to take advantage of the deal?
Asked about captive insurers, the Dean campaign retreated into precisely the hyper-cautious language it ridicules in others: "This is a legitimate industry, perfectly legal," a Dean spokesman said. No word yet on whether there's a "controlling legal authority" to sort through all this.
Posted by Ouch at December 12, 2003 07:17 PM
I'm so glad Dean will help me take back my tax havens.. err.. country.
If I did drugs, I would want some of yours because obviously they are quite powerful.
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The Dean campaign is no different from any other campaign. If you want a true example of a grassroots campaign, try the California Recall, oh but of course that was a "circus" even while it turned out record numbers of voters, signed up millions of new voters, and while started by one man, wasn't even about him after the momentum got startec.
I also remember a lot of people saying that the Dean campaign is running on a similar "anti-incumbant" platform as Schwarzy's and that it could be equally as powerful. Hmm.
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No matter what you want to claim, no matter what Dean tries to claim, there wasn't some movement that was already going and just happened to pick him.
Umm. Not true. How else do you explain his meteoric rise to the top? It certainly wasn't through the sheer will of his personality.
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Of course on the Dean side this is "grassroots" and on the Republican side, it is the Nazism.
Whatever. Somehow I suspect you wouldn't allow anyone else on this forum to get away with this. I didn't even remotely relate Bush's campaign to Nazism. I simply said I was dumbfounded by the blatant re-framing of the term "grassroots" by Rove, Inc.
You used to debate intellectually. What happened?
Quote:
Dean's site is so self-rightous and filled with "thoughtspeak" that it sounds more Orwellian than anything else I have encountered in a long time. He takes so many common principles and assigns them exclusively to himself that it is a little scary.
Orwellian? That's original. If memory serves we were supposed to be "uniting" and full of "compassion" and not "nation building."
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Hmmm.... sounds a little top down to me. I don't see people just spontaniously writing letters. Sounds a little top-down planned to me.
Well you're certainly not looking in the right place. I volunteered to write letters when it was a suggestion by a blogger several months ago. But, you weren't there for that. It was another blogger who suggested that hand-written letters would be better received.
I even drove myself to the letter writing party. I wasn't recruited, let alone forced into quotas. In fact, there wasn't even a signup sheet with a letter quota that I must meet. Even Bush's own "ground troups" are dismayed at the heavy-handed tactics being deployed by Rove, Inc.
And yes, I want my cookie!
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Hmmm... top down again. This wasn't some local person who just put some thoughts and feelings into writing and a lot of people discovered they had similar feelings and then, wow Dean does too. It is again, top down.
Actually, there are several instances where bloggers have contributed ideas that the campaign has incorporated. But, I guess you didn't really do all that much research, did you? Because if you did, you really wouldn't be walking away from the site or the blog with such a dismissing, arrogant attitude. This campaign has the most symbiotic relationship with its supporters that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime. You might find that "charming" but ineffective. We'll see in November.
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I could go on and on, but the point is, his campaign is no different than any other, no matter how much jinglism or sloganism he tosses around.
If that's true, then why is the RNC and Rove, Inc. suddenly using the term grassroots to describe their efforts? They never used it before. Again, you are arguing that grassroots and campaigning are equal, the same thing, when they are not. So, thanks for proving my point that your goal is to hijack the word, diffuse it, completely deplete its original meaning and in a single breath complete dismiss the power of it.
Also, no one ever said it wasn't a CAMPAIGN! The only thing distinguishing this campaign from all the others is the overwhelming support from average Americans who are enthusiastically rallying around their candidate. The "grassroots" element applies simply because 90% of all the Deaniacs have never participated in politics, let alone volunteered time for a campaign. 90% of Bush's "Rangers" are hard-core activists from the 2000 election.
And signing up new voters is not a grassroots movement, on either side of the fence. It's simply...signing up voters.
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Yes no deadlines and quotas. I mean something like 2 million Americans x $100 is.... well sounds like a quota to me. Of and the list of upcoming fund raisers all planned by and for Deans sounds... so ... grassroots... really.
Quotas and Goals are two separate things. Nice spin though.
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Then of course there is the TeamDean, where you can be a heavy hitter by using the Dean website, and Dean provided space to raise money for... Dean.. because darn it this isn't top down. What's next... DeanPioneers. Note that you get your own bat to track how much of a "heavy hitter" you are when funding raising for Dean. Of course the percentages on that bat don't represent deadlines, quotas, an expectation or anything else centrally imposed.
It's not imposed. It was asked for. The bloggers asked for the bat. They wanted something that symbolized how much money they've raised. Dean or Trippi didn't do it. The bloggers asked and they received. Grassroots.
Again, because you have not been paying attention to the Dean movement (and I don't expect you to) you haven't been there to witness the site, the blog, the MeetUp events all being shaped and ran...wait for it...by the Dean grassroots movement. Not by the campaign. The people.
You also forgot to mention that Dean is also helping out fellow Congressional Democrats by asking his supporters to donate money to their campaigns. But, hey, it's ALL about Dean, right?
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Gee Bush allows me to submit questions for online chats whereas Dean doesn't even show any upcoming chats, so he must be a Nazi.
There you go again with your fascination with Nazis. Why do you keep equating a ligitmate dispute about "marketing" with "evil" and Nazis?
Dean and Trippi are constantly on the Blogs and in the Forum. You don't have to "submit" a question and wait for upcoming chats. It's all live, right there, right now. No waiting for calibrated answers.
While we're talking about Deniacs having their heads up their proverbial asses, I thought I'd provide this interesting outlook:
Michael Tomasky at the American Prospect argues that it's time for party insiders to understand what the the greatest grassroots campaign of the modern era means to the Democratic party.
After the bottom fell out from under the Democratic party in 1988, Tomasky argues in today's must-read, it was Bill Clinton who rebuilt the party ideologically and as a fundraising machine:
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But there is one way in which Clinton did not rebuild the Democratic Party: from the ground up....
This is where Howard Dean comes in.... Clinton rebuilt... the superstructure. Dean is rebuilding the base....
There's a tricky thing about this rebuilding stage, though: It excludes party insiders. It has nothing to do with Washington. It's no wonder that Democratic insiders, so accustomed to having complete ownership of a process like a party primary campaign, should dislike Dean and even fear him: He has stolen the process right out of their hands. He is not "of" them in any way, shape or form. In fact, his accumulating successes merely serve to emphasize their irrelevance to this rebuilding stage....
At this point, after he has amassed the armies of small donors and bloggers and volunteers, blocking Dean is not blocking one man. It's blocking the hopes of millions of Democrats who?understand the importance of this?would walk through fire for a candidate for the first time in their lives. That isn't something that should be done cavalierly; in the long term, blocking the active participation of these millions may do more damage to the Democratic Party than four more years of George W. Bush.
Besides, insurgents do win sometimes. Because the standard historical analogies to Dean (McGovern, Barry Goldwater) have now run their course, let me add two more to the mix. The first is Andrew Jackson?invoked, significantly, by Dean himself at the Dec. 9 endorsement event with Gore. Say all you want about 1828 being ancient history, but some things are eternal. Bringing new constituencies into the process and transforming politics through that infusion is one of them. Yesterday it was the pamphleteer, today it's the blogger; but the impulse and the ardor are the same....
Insiders need to start thinking about making their peace with Deanism. The party?the (still) post-1988 party?needs a rebuilt base, and Dean is doing that in a way that has no precedent. And instead of fretting about all the ways Dean could lose, the insiders might do better to spend some time thinking about how he might win....
Because he might. [Bush] has the powers of incumbency, money and a feared (actually, overly feared) political operation. But his numbers are soft. Gore's 2000 states plus Ohio or Arizona is a long, long way from being an impossible task?for Dean or for any of the aforementioned.
So let the race begin. And expect the impossible. It happens often.
Hey fellows, considering that no candidate is perfect or has done everything perfectly according one's particular ideology, how do you square all the ugly facts about Clark's ties to the Republican party and dissent amongst fellow Generals who worked with him?
Personally, I think Clark's a fine man. He obviously demands respect. And if he becomes the nominee I would be honored to support him. But, I don't think he's ready for prime time yet. There are some issues with a lot of his policies I don't like.
Like Clark, Dean's record has a couple skeletons he'll need to square. But, both men have served their country. There are very very few men who cam claim Clark's credentials as having devoted his "entire" life to public service. But, service the country they both did.
So lighten up on "hate" speech and vitriol a bit, okay?
Isn't it great to see how Dean is so different from every other politician. You have the power... to give all your money, time and of course vote to Howard Dean.!
Whatever. Somehow I suspect you wouldn't allow anyone else on this forum to get away with this. I didn't even remotely relate Bush's campaign to Nazism. I simply said I was dumbfounded by the blatant re-framing of the term "grassroots" by Rove, Inc.
You used to debate intellectually. What happened?
I'll address this one seperately because... well it deserves it.
For the uninformed...
1. The German internal security police as organized under the Nazi regime, known for its terrorist methods directed against those suspected of treason or questionable loyalty.
2. gestapopl. ge·sta·pos A police organization that employs terroristic methods to control a populace.
So here's a hint. We you say someone is using Gestapo tactics as you did regarding Bushes campaign, you are relating them to Nazism since they were organized by the... you guessed it Nazi regime.
I do debate intellectually. What happened is that you want to imply and then back away from something and I called you on it.
I also remember a lot of people saying that the Dean campaign is running on a similar "anti-incumbant" platform as Schwarzy's and that it could be equally as powerful. Hmm.
People saying is one thing. People doing is another. Last time I checked the recall was done and then we went and got some candidates. Seems Dean jumped in to this from the get go. Heck even Clark can be claimed to have had more of a grassroots movement draft him than Dean. Dean being grassroots is just a marketing message. He runs the same type of campaign as everyone else.
Quote:
Orwellian? That's original. If memory serves we were supposed to be "uniting" and full of "compassion" and not "nation building."
Assigning labels to describe yourself is not the same as taking entire institutions and claiming only you represent them. "Drive for Democracy" oh, only Dean can make the U.S. a Democracy? Please...you show it yourself by saying everyone is now claiming Dean's word... grassroots when obviously Clark got into the race because of a grassroots effort as well. You are taking words and giving Dean exclusive use of them, which is exactly the marketing he promotes. You have bought it hook, line and sinker.
Quote:
Well you're certainly not looking in the right place. I volunteered to write letters when it was a suggestion by a blogger several months ago. But, you weren't there for that. It was another blogger who suggested that hand-written letters would be better received.
I even drove myself to the letter writing party. I wasn't recruited, let alone forced into quotas. In fact, there wasn't even a signup sheet with a letter quota that I must meet. Even Bush's own "ground troups" are dismayed at the heavy-handed tactics being deployed by Rove, Inc.
And yes, I want my cookie!
Well then your perceptions are a little flawed because when I look at the Dean site, I see goals, dates, timelines, etc. all over the place. I even mentioned the bat with the percentiles for fund raising. In fact I would say the clearest message on the entire site is "Give me more money, today, tomorrow, periodically, etc."
Quote:
Actually, there are several instances where bloggers have contributed ideas that the campaign has incorporated. But, I guess you didn't really do all that much research, did you? Because if you did, you really wouldn't be walking away from the site or the blog with such a dismissing, arrogant attitude. This campaign has the most symbiotic relationship with its supporters that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime. You might find that "charming" but ineffective. We'll see in November.
Look North, you work in entertainment. You know how easy it is to create relationships that aren't really there, people just perceive them. Are you truly sure the ideas came from the blog, or they were already waiting to do them and just used the blog as the excuse. People think they have relationships with the people acting on television. People think screaming at a TV improves the performance of their sports team. I don't dismiss it because I did no research. It is because I recognize sloganism, jinglism, and good marketing when I see it. The whole site and message screams, "You ARE disaffected but you can be empowered here, for $25, by writing a letter or 50, by signing up your friends, etc..."
Quote:
If that's true, then why is the RNC and Rove, Inc. suddenly using the term grassroots to describe their efforts? They never used it before. Again, you are arguing that grassroots and campaigning are equal, the same thing, when they are not. So, thanks for proving my point that your goal is to hijack the word, diffuse it, completely deplete its original meaning and in a single breath complete dismiss the power of it.
This one is special for North... I looked it up special just for you.
In Daytona, Bush told a mixed crowd of senior citizens, veterans and young voters that the grassroots efforts of his state campaign organization simply had to pay big dividends if he is to claim Florida. The state has become a treacherous battleground for both Bush and Gore, whose battles over federal entitlements have split opinions among the state's vast senior population.
Oh... no that is impossible. The Dean site said only they were grassroots. Bush can't use that word. He is evil and just used it because cool Dean did. Even Dean didn't think up grassroots, it came from the blog.
Actually there is a minor political party that calls themselves the Grassroots Party. They have two state parties in the last election. One in Kentucky and one in... Vermont. Hey what state was Dean governor of again? Hmmmmm.....
Of course they are organized around getting marijuana legalized... but they don't appear to be too motivated or organized. Maybe someone "borrowed" a bit from them and put some more organization and conservative ideas behind those words. Naw, that would be evil and gestapo-ish.
Quote:
Also, no one ever said it wasn't a CAMPAIGN! The only thing distinguishing this campaign from all the others is the overwhelming support from average Americans who are enthusiastically rallying around their candidate. The "grassroots" element applies simply because 90% of all the Deaniacs have never participated in politics, let alone volunteered time for a campaign. 90% of Bush's "Rangers" are hard-core activists from the 2000 election.
Average americans? Well we will see how well Dean does in the south first of all. I mean he does have the endorsement of Gore who..oh didn't he lose the entire South including Tennessee? Oh well perhaps he will do better.
As for the rest, well again... I'm sure you will keep drinking the kool-aid.
I'll address this one seperately because... well it deserves it.
For the uninformed...
1. The German internal security police as organized under the Nazi regime, known for its terrorist methods directed against those suspected of treason or questionable loyalty.
2. gestapopl. ge·sta·pos A police organization that employs terroristic methods to control a populace.
So here's a hint. We you say someone is using Gestapo tactics as you did regarding Bushes campaign, you are relating them to Nazism since they were organized by the... you guessed it Nazi regime.
I do debate intellectually. What happened is that you want to imply and then back away from something and I called you on it.
Nick
No. You imply that definition #1 is the intention behind the word usage when, in fact, definition #2 is the true intent.
Well then your perceptions are a little flawed because when I look at the Dean site, I see goals, dates, timelines, etc. all over the place. I even mentioned the bat with the percentiles for fund raising. In fact I would say the clearest message on the entire site is "Give me more money, today, tomorrow, periodically, etc." [/B]
Psst. Everyone gather 'round. Trumptman's giving me a lecture about Howard Dean's website raising campaign funds.
Go on. Keep convincing yourself that Bush is enjoying the great grassroots movement of the last fifty years.
And he shouldn't even need a grassroots campaign--he 's the f*cking president!
But he is. I haven't read through the whole thread, but he has 6,000,000 supporters signed up to Dean's 600,000. The Bush campaign is going to be unbeleivable.
But go on. Keep convincing youself that this is 1992.
Yes, kiddies and remember when you give to Dean it is supporting Democracy and taking back your country. But when you give to Bush it is supporting the Gestapo.
Shawn J, Trumptman i can merge your threads too, if you want. Just ask.
Sure...why not.
BTW is anyone able to find on the Dean website where he supports Kyoto? I find where he says he will renegotiate it. But I can't see where he supports the current one.
You know, the one Clinton "supported" but then wouldn't send to the Senate who would have voted it down 95-0. Thus we all now know that Bush is an evil gas/oil despoil the environment type of guy while Clinton the "environmentalist" just supports things but via an executive order that take place 4 years after he leaves (water treatment) or by not sending it to the Senate to be ratified. (Kyoto)
Seems Dean would have the U.S. defy the wishes of the rest of the world as well and unilaterally seek to have the U.S. held to a different, lower standard for Kyoto. He must be doing it for all those special business interests he gave tax breaks to as governor of Vermont. All environmental types know that reopening or negotiating Kyoto is special code for stripping it.
Comments
Originally posted by Northgate
Sorry. Doesn't stick. Grassroots works from the bottom up. Not like GWB's campaign this year which works from the top down. Big difference. There are no subtleties or gray areas here. It's either a grassroots movement or it is not.
If I did drugs, I would want some of yours because obviously they are quite powerful.
The Dean campaign is no different from any other campaign. If you want a true example of a grassroots campaign, try the California Recall, oh but of course that was a "circus" even while it turned out record numbers of voters, signed up millions of new voters, and while started by one man, wasn't even about him after the momentum got startec.
No matter what you want to claim, no matter what Dean tries to claim, there wasn't some movement that was already going and just happened to pick him. As I mentioned before he makes it sound like some wave he just happened to catch. It is part of his marketing and you find him using the exact same campaign organizing principles as any other candidate.
Grassroots is when "the people" decide to do something, NOT when the party tells them too. Having the GOP send out soldiers to sign up new voters is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the people seeking the candidate out on their own. What a crock!
Oh yeah, "the people."
Dean's site is so self-rightous and filled with "thoughtspeak" that it sounds more Orwellian than anything else I have encountered in a long time. He takes so many common principles and assigns them exclusively to himself that it is a little scary.
Victory Days are democracy in action. Next week Dean supporters will gather in cities and towns across America to work to win the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary by writing letters to undecided voters.
Hmmm.... sounds a little top down to me. I don't see people just spontaniously writing letters. Sounds a little top-down planned to me.
Nice Deanspeak there as well. When you work for Dean, it is Democracy in action. When you don't... well I guess it isn't.
So begins Howard Dean's pamplet "Common Sense for a New Century," over 500,000 copies of which were distributed this week to Dean supporters across the nation.
Hmmm... top down again. This wasn't some local person who just put some thoughts and feelings into writing and a lot of people discovered they had similar feelings and then, wow Dean does too. It is again, top down.
I could go on and on, but the point is, his campaign is no different than any other, no matter how much jinglism or sloganism he tosses around.
Roll call? Accountability for sign-up quotas? This is not how the Dean campaign is ran. Not even remotely.
A true, authentic "grassroots" movement does not require regimented quotas and deadlines. The movement itself is highly motivated and often surpasses expectations without such Gestapo tactics. Witness the recent phenomenon of true, authentic grassroots members constantly outraising funds that surpass the Dean campaign's expectations. You can mock all you want, but it's real and it's palpable.
Yes no deadlines and quotas. I mean something like 2 million Americans x $100 is.... well sounds like a quota to me. Of and the list of upcoming fund raisers all planned by and for Deans sounds... so ... grassroots... really.
Then of course there is the TeamDean, where you can be a heavy hitter by using the Dean website, and Dean provided space to raise money for... Dean.. because darn it this isn't top down. What's next... DeanPioneers.
What is your fundraising goal? We appreciate whatever you raise, but remember that $2,000 is the First Team level, and $5,000 is the MVP level. You can change your goal at any time after you register.
Hahahahaha
"...none of them comes close to matching the sources..." That's f*cking funny!
Also, I noticed the GWB's blog doesn't allow its readers to post comments. There apparently is no forum either. The Dean campaign reads what their membership posts constantly. Several fantastic ideas have emerged from the blog. This will only strengthen the candidate. GWB's site appears to be fearful of opening up its blog to comments. Perhaps they're afraid of Trolls running amok. Oh, well.
Gee Bush allows me to submit questions for online chats whereas Dean doesn't even show any upcoming chats, so he must be a Nazi.
Nick
Now all I need is $2000 for my grassroots campaign.
Dean at House of Blues
Isn't it great to see how Dean is so different from every other politician. You have the power... to give all your money, time and of course vote to Howard Dean.!
Nick
Like this...
VERMONT: THE NEW BERMUDA
by Josh Benson
Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: Intellectual Honesty
Grade: F
Deanophiles love to spin their candidate's weaknesses into strengths--arrogance is a sign of conviction, tactlessness is straight-talk, and so forth. So I'm curious to see how they'll spin the latest Dean misstep: hypocrisy.
Turns out that while old Howard has been bashing the coziness of the Bush administration with corporate America, Vermont has quietly become the leading state for a dubious tax-break scheme known as "captive insurance"--under Dean's direction.
As reported in today's Boston Globe, captive insurance is essentially a way to shield corporate profits from state taxes. It starts when a parent company uses one of its own subsidiaries for insurance. The parent company makes premium payments to the subsidiary for the insurance policy, and Vermont takes a piece of those premiums in taxes. So far, so good. But under the Vermont law that Dean pushed, the subsidiary can then reinvest those premiums and keep the resulting profits tax-free. The captive insurance operation may even allow non-Vermont companies to dodge their home states' tax bills.
As a University of Connecticut law school professor told the Globe, "Dean apparently has no problems with tax havens as long as they are in the state of Vermont." And what an operation he's built: by introducing tax breaks and successfully scuttling a proposed Clinton-era regulation designed to stymie the scheme, Dean ensured Vermont is home to more captive insurers than the rest of the country combined. In 2001, he boasted that he wanted Vermont to "overtake Bermuda" as the number one destination for such operations.
Did we mention Enron opened an office in Montpelier to take advantage of the deal?
Asked about captive insurers, the Dean campaign retreated into precisely the hyper-cautious language it ridicules in others: "This is a legitimate industry, perfectly legal," a Dean spokesman said. No word yet on whether there's a "controlling legal authority" to sort through all this.
Posted by Ouch at December 12, 2003 07:17 PM
I'm so glad Dean will help me take back my tax havens.. err.. country.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Hey thanks for the link to the Dean Blog. I am learning so much about Dean.
Like this...
I'm so glad Dean will help me take back my tax havens.. err.. country.
Nick
Dean is sick.... just sick.
Fellowship
Originally posted by trumptman
If I did drugs, I would want some of yours because obviously they are quite powerful.
The Dean campaign is no different from any other campaign. If you want a true example of a grassroots campaign, try the California Recall, oh but of course that was a "circus" even while it turned out record numbers of voters, signed up millions of new voters, and while started by one man, wasn't even about him after the momentum got startec.
I also remember a lot of people saying that the Dean campaign is running on a similar "anti-incumbant" platform as Schwarzy's and that it could be equally as powerful. Hmm.
No matter what you want to claim, no matter what Dean tries to claim, there wasn't some movement that was already going and just happened to pick him.
Umm. Not true. How else do you explain his meteoric rise to the top? It certainly wasn't through the sheer will of his personality.
Of course on the Dean side this is "grassroots" and on the Republican side, it is the Nazism.
Whatever. Somehow I suspect you wouldn't allow anyone else on this forum to get away with this. I didn't even remotely relate Bush's campaign to Nazism. I simply said I was dumbfounded by the blatant re-framing of the term "grassroots" by Rove, Inc.
You used to debate intellectually. What happened?
Dean's site is so self-rightous and filled with "thoughtspeak" that it sounds more Orwellian than anything else I have encountered in a long time. He takes so many common principles and assigns them exclusively to himself that it is a little scary.
Orwellian? That's original. If memory serves we were supposed to be "uniting" and full of "compassion" and not "nation building."
Hmmm.... sounds a little top down to me. I don't see people just spontaniously writing letters. Sounds a little top-down planned to me.
Well you're certainly not looking in the right place. I volunteered to write letters when it was a suggestion by a blogger several months ago. But, you weren't there for that. It was another blogger who suggested that hand-written letters would be better received.
I even drove myself to the letter writing party. I wasn't recruited, let alone forced into quotas. In fact, there wasn't even a signup sheet with a letter quota that I must meet. Even Bush's own "ground troups" are dismayed at the heavy-handed tactics being deployed by Rove, Inc.
And yes, I want my cookie!
Hmmm... top down again. This wasn't some local person who just put some thoughts and feelings into writing and a lot of people discovered they had similar feelings and then, wow Dean does too. It is again, top down.
Actually, there are several instances where bloggers have contributed ideas that the campaign has incorporated. But, I guess you didn't really do all that much research, did you? Because if you did, you really wouldn't be walking away from the site or the blog with such a dismissing, arrogant attitude. This campaign has the most symbiotic relationship with its supporters that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime. You might find that "charming" but ineffective. We'll see in November.
I could go on and on, but the point is, his campaign is no different than any other, no matter how much jinglism or sloganism he tosses around.
If that's true, then why is the RNC and Rove, Inc. suddenly using the term grassroots to describe their efforts? They never used it before. Again, you are arguing that grassroots and campaigning are equal, the same thing, when they are not. So, thanks for proving my point that your goal is to hijack the word, diffuse it, completely deplete its original meaning and in a single breath complete dismiss the power of it.
Also, no one ever said it wasn't a CAMPAIGN! The only thing distinguishing this campaign from all the others is the overwhelming support from average Americans who are enthusiastically rallying around their candidate. The "grassroots" element applies simply because 90% of all the Deaniacs have never participated in politics, let alone volunteered time for a campaign. 90% of Bush's "Rangers" are hard-core activists from the 2000 election.
And signing up new voters is not a grassroots movement, on either side of the fence. It's simply...signing up voters.
Yes no deadlines and quotas. I mean something like 2 million Americans x $100 is.... well sounds like a quota to me. Of and the list of upcoming fund raisers all planned by and for Deans sounds... so ... grassroots... really.
Quotas and Goals are two separate things. Nice spin though.
Then of course there is the TeamDean, where you can be a heavy hitter by using the Dean website, and Dean provided space to raise money for... Dean.. because darn it this isn't top down. What's next... DeanPioneers.
It's not imposed. It was asked for. The bloggers asked for the bat. They wanted something that symbolized how much money they've raised. Dean or Trippi didn't do it. The bloggers asked and they received. Grassroots.
Again, because you have not been paying attention to the Dean movement (and I don't expect you to) you haven't been there to witness the site, the blog, the MeetUp events all being shaped and ran...wait for it...by the Dean grassroots movement. Not by the campaign. The people.
You also forgot to mention that Dean is also helping out fellow Congressional Democrats by asking his supporters to donate money to their campaigns. But, hey, it's ALL about Dean, right?
Gee Bush allows me to submit questions for online chats whereas Dean doesn't even show any upcoming chats, so he must be a Nazi.
There you go again with your fascination with Nazis.
Dean and Trippi are constantly on the Blogs and in the Forum. You don't have to "submit" a question and wait for upcoming chats. It's all live, right there, right now. No waiting for calibrated answers.
Michael Tomasky at the American Prospect argues that it's time for party insiders to understand what the the greatest grassroots campaign of the modern era means to the Democratic party.
After the bottom fell out from under the Democratic party in 1988, Tomasky argues in today's must-read, it was Bill Clinton who rebuilt the party ideologically and as a fundraising machine:
But there is one way in which Clinton did not rebuild the Democratic Party: from the ground up....
This is where Howard Dean comes in.... Clinton rebuilt... the superstructure. Dean is rebuilding the base....
There's a tricky thing about this rebuilding stage, though: It excludes party insiders. It has nothing to do with Washington. It's no wonder that Democratic insiders, so accustomed to having complete ownership of a process like a party primary campaign, should dislike Dean and even fear him: He has stolen the process right out of their hands. He is not "of" them in any way, shape or form. In fact, his accumulating successes merely serve to emphasize their irrelevance to this rebuilding stage....
At this point, after he has amassed the armies of small donors and bloggers and volunteers, blocking Dean is not blocking one man. It's blocking the hopes of millions of Democrats who?understand the importance of this?would walk through fire for a candidate for the first time in their lives. That isn't something that should be done cavalierly; in the long term, blocking the active participation of these millions may do more damage to the Democratic Party than four more years of George W. Bush.
Besides, insurgents do win sometimes. Because the standard historical analogies to Dean (McGovern, Barry Goldwater) have now run their course, let me add two more to the mix. The first is Andrew Jackson?invoked, significantly, by Dean himself at the Dec. 9 endorsement event with Gore. Say all you want about 1828 being ancient history, but some things are eternal. Bringing new constituencies into the process and transforming politics through that infusion is one of them. Yesterday it was the pamphleteer, today it's the blogger; but the impulse and the ardor are the same....
Insiders need to start thinking about making their peace with Deanism. The party?the (still) post-1988 party?needs a rebuilt base, and Dean is doing that in a way that has no precedent. And instead of fretting about all the ways Dean could lose, the insiders might do better to spend some time thinking about how he might win....
Because he might. [Bush] has the powers of incumbency, money and a feared (actually, overly feared) political operation. But his numbers are soft. Gore's 2000 states plus Ohio or Arizona is a long, long way from being an impossible task?for Dean or for any of the aforementioned.
So let the race begin. And expect the impossible. It happens often.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Dean is sick.... just sick.
Fellowship
Hey fellows, considering that no candidate is perfect or has done everything perfectly according one's particular ideology, how do you square all the ugly facts about Clark's ties to the Republican party and dissent amongst fellow Generals who worked with him?
Personally, I think Clark's a fine man. He obviously demands respect. And if he becomes the nominee I would be honored to support him. But, I don't think he's ready for prime time yet. There are some issues with a lot of his policies I don't like.
Like Clark, Dean's record has a couple skeletons he'll need to square. But, both men have served their country. There are very very few men who cam claim Clark's credentials as having devoted his "entire" life to public service. But, service the country they both did.
So lighten up on "hate" speech and vitriol a bit, okay?
Originally posted by Northgate
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
If I did drugs, I would want some of yours because obviously they are quite powerful.
I'm with you there, Northgate. That was pretty damn cringe-worthy.
Originally posted by Northgate
So lighten up on "hate" speech and vitriol a bit, okay?
Ohhh come "hate" speech? I thought people said only the Bush camp via John Ashcroft deemed dissenting views as "Hate" speech.
Of course I can dig up some
Fellows
Originally posted by trumptman
I love how when Dean comes to my town. I'll get to meet him first hand since I'm a supporter of "Democracy" and "Taking my Country Back."
Now all I need is $2000 for my grassroots campaign.
Dean at House of Blues
Isn't it great to see how Dean is so different from every other politician. You have the power... to give all your money, time and of course vote to Howard Dean.!
Nick
What's your point?
Originally posted by Northgate
Whatever. Somehow I suspect you wouldn't allow anyone else on this forum to get away with this. I didn't even remotely relate Bush's campaign to Nazism. I simply said I was dumbfounded by the blatant re-framing of the term "grassroots" by Rove, Inc.
You used to debate intellectually. What happened?
I'll address this one seperately because... well it deserves it.
For the uninformed...
1. The German internal security police as organized under the Nazi regime, known for its terrorist methods directed against those suspected of treason or questionable loyalty.
2. gestapopl. ge·sta·pos A police organization that employs terroristic methods to control a populace.
So here's a hint. We you say someone is using Gestapo tactics as you did regarding Bushes campaign, you are relating them to Nazism since they were organized by the... you guessed it Nazi regime.
I do debate intellectually. What happened is that you want to imply and then back away from something and I called you on it.
Nick
Originally posted by Northgate
I also remember a lot of people saying that the Dean campaign is running on a similar "anti-incumbant" platform as Schwarzy's and that it could be equally as powerful. Hmm.
People saying is one thing. People doing is another. Last time I checked the recall was done and then we went and got some candidates. Seems Dean jumped in to this from the get go. Heck even Clark can be claimed to have had more of a grassroots movement draft him than Dean. Dean being grassroots is just a marketing message. He runs the same type of campaign as everyone else.
Orwellian? That's original. If memory serves we were supposed to be "uniting" and full of "compassion" and not "nation building."
Assigning labels to describe yourself is not the same as taking entire institutions and claiming only you represent them. "Drive for Democracy" oh, only Dean can make the U.S. a Democracy? Please...you show it yourself by saying everyone is now claiming Dean's word... grassroots when obviously Clark got into the race because of a grassroots effort as well. You are taking words and giving Dean exclusive use of them, which is exactly the marketing he promotes. You have bought it hook, line and sinker.
Well you're certainly not looking in the right place. I volunteered to write letters when it was a suggestion by a blogger several months ago. But, you weren't there for that. It was another blogger who suggested that hand-written letters would be better received.
I even drove myself to the letter writing party. I wasn't recruited, let alone forced into quotas. In fact, there wasn't even a signup sheet with a letter quota that I must meet. Even Bush's own "ground troups" are dismayed at the heavy-handed tactics being deployed by Rove, Inc.
And yes, I want my cookie!
Well then your perceptions are a little flawed because when I look at the Dean site, I see goals, dates, timelines, etc. all over the place. I even mentioned the bat with the percentiles for fund raising. In fact I would say the clearest message on the entire site is "Give me more money, today, tomorrow, periodically, etc."
Actually, there are several instances where bloggers have contributed ideas that the campaign has incorporated. But, I guess you didn't really do all that much research, did you? Because if you did, you really wouldn't be walking away from the site or the blog with such a dismissing, arrogant attitude. This campaign has the most symbiotic relationship with its supporters that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime. You might find that "charming" but ineffective. We'll see in November.
Look North, you work in entertainment. You know how easy it is to create relationships that aren't really there, people just perceive them. Are you truly sure the ideas came from the blog, or they were already waiting to do them and just used the blog as the excuse. People think they have relationships with the people acting on television. People think screaming at a TV improves the performance of their sports team. I don't dismiss it because I did no research. It is because I recognize sloganism, jinglism, and good marketing when I see it. The whole site and message screams, "You ARE disaffected but you can be empowered here, for $25, by writing a letter or 50, by signing up your friends, etc..."
If that's true, then why is the RNC and Rove, Inc. suddenly using the term grassroots to describe their efforts? They never used it before. Again, you are arguing that grassroots and campaigning are equal, the same thing, when they are not. So, thanks for proving my point that your goal is to hijack the word, diffuse it, completely deplete its original meaning and in a single breath complete dismiss the power of it.
This one is special for North... I looked it up special just for you.
CNN ALLPolitics 2000
In Daytona, Bush told a mixed crowd of senior citizens, veterans and young voters that the grassroots efforts of his state campaign organization simply had to pay big dividends if he is to claim Florida. The state has become a treacherous battleground for both Bush and Gore, whose battles over federal entitlements have split opinions among the state's vast senior population.
Oh... no that is impossible. The Dean site said only they were grassroots. Bush can't use that word. He is evil and just used it because cool Dean did. Even Dean didn't think up grassroots, it came from the blog.
Actually there is a minor political party that calls themselves the Grassroots Party. They have two state parties in the last election. One in Kentucky and one in... Vermont. Hey what state was Dean governor of again? Hmmmmm.....
Of course they are organized around getting marijuana legalized... but they don't appear to be too motivated or organized.
Also, no one ever said it wasn't a CAMPAIGN! The only thing distinguishing this campaign from all the others is the overwhelming support from average Americans who are enthusiastically rallying around their candidate. The "grassroots" element applies simply because 90% of all the Deaniacs have never participated in politics, let alone volunteered time for a campaign. 90% of Bush's "Rangers" are hard-core activists from the 2000 election.
Average americans? Well we will see how well Dean does in the south first of all. I mean he does have the endorsement of Gore who..oh didn't he lose the entire South including Tennessee? Oh well perhaps he will do better.
As for the rest, well again... I'm sure you will keep drinking the kool-aid.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
I'll address this one seperately because... well it deserves it.
For the uninformed...
1. The German internal security police as organized under the Nazi regime, known for its terrorist methods directed against those suspected of treason or questionable loyalty.
2. gestapopl. ge·sta·pos A police organization that employs terroristic methods to control a populace.
So here's a hint. We you say someone is using Gestapo tactics as you did regarding Bushes campaign, you are relating them to Nazism since they were organized by the... you guessed it Nazi regime.
I do debate intellectually. What happened is that you want to imply and then back away from something and I called you on it.
Nick
No. You imply that definition #1 is the intention behind the word usage when, in fact, definition #2 is the true intent.
And he shouldn't even need a grassroots campaign--he 's the f*cking president!
Originally posted by trumptman
Well then your perceptions are a little flawed because when I look at the Dean site, I see goals, dates, timelines, etc. all over the place. I even mentioned the bat with the percentiles for fund raising. In fact I would say the clearest message on the entire site is "Give me more money, today, tomorrow, periodically, etc." [/B]
Psst. Everyone gather 'round. Trumptman's giving me a lecture about Howard Dean's website raising campaign funds.
Bush Fund Raising Record - $106,000,000.00 with no sign of slowing down!
Now that's rich.
Originally posted by Northgate
Psst. Everyone gather 'round. Trumptman's giving me a lecture about Howard Dean's website raising campaign funds.
Bush Fund Raising Record - $106,000,000.00 with no sign of slowing down!
Now that's rich.
$$$$ yeah Duluth baby!!! I'm in college here!! WHOOOOOHOOOOOOO .....oh yeah....terrible....umm what are we talking about???
Originally posted by Northgate
Go on. Keep convincing yourself that Bush is enjoying the great grassroots movement of the last fifty years.
And he shouldn't even need a grassroots campaign--he 's the f*cking president!
But he is. I haven't read through the whole thread, but he has 6,000,000 supporters signed up to Dean's 600,000. The Bush campaign is going to be unbeleivable.
But go on. Keep convincing youself that this is 1992.
Originally posted by Northgate
Psst. Everyone gather 'round. Trumptman's giving me a lecture about Howard Dean's website raising campaign funds.
Bush Fund Raising Record - $106,000,000.00 with no sign of slowing down!
Now that's rich.
Yes, kiddies and remember when you give to Dean it is supporting Democracy and taking back your country. But when you give to Bush it is supporting the Gestapo.
No double standard though...
Nick
Shawn J, Trumptman i can merge your threads too, if you want. Just ask.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Note : merged SDW 2001 thread.
Shawn J, Trumptman i can merge your threads too, if you want. Just ask.
Sure...why not.
BTW is anyone able to find on the Dean website where he supports Kyoto? I find where he says he will renegotiate it. But I can't see where he supports the current one.
You know, the one Clinton "supported" but then wouldn't send to the Senate who would have voted it down 95-0. Thus we all now know that Bush is an evil gas/oil despoil the environment type of guy while Clinton the "environmentalist" just supports things but via an executive order that take place 4 years after he leaves (water treatment) or by not sending it to the Senate to be ratified. (Kyoto)
Seems Dean would have the U.S. defy the wishes of the rest of the world as well and unilaterally seek to have the U.S. held to a different, lower standard for Kyoto. He must be doing it for all those special business interests he gave tax breaks to as governor of Vermont. All environmental types know that reopening or negotiating Kyoto is special code for stripping it.
Nick