Not true actually. Any civilian can act if necessary, the only real question is was this necessary or was this excessive. Don't you remember the two civilians that tackled the gunman outside of the White House a few years ago? It was legal too.
Gun at whitehouse....hecklers and Dean rally.....not quite grasping that yet.
Not true actually. Any civilian can act if necessary, the only real question is was this necessary or was this excessive. Don't you remember the two civilians that tackled the gunman outside of the White House a few years ago? It was legal too.
Please tell me you don't believe any of what you have posted.
Not true actually. Any civilian can act if necessary, the only real question is was this necessary or was this excessive. Don't you remember the two civilians that tackled the gunman outside of the White House a few years ago? It was legal too.
Civilians tackling a gunman outside the Whitehouse is hardly comparable to a comedian/journalist deciding to attack another American expressing his political views at a political rally.
hmmm...couple guys tackle a gunman in order to save lives, Franken jumps a guy for being loud and rude. Yup, those are two incidents that resonate with similarity.
I've gotta tell ya Bunge I don't see a parallel. Old Al is set for at least a week of pure heckling, even by his fellow comedians. The guy that he tackled could even conceivably file a lawsuit against him. It's a big boo-boo, regardless of the circumstances.
Remember Dean's scream? In context it's arguably an impassioned spur-of-the-moment speech - out of context it's proof of concept that Dean is a madman. This does nothing but lower Franken's first-blush credibility to those who have no preconceived feelings about the man.
BuonRotto:
Yeah, other than laughing I'd say that this thread has just about run its course...but I certainly wouldn't close it. Let it die on its own, that's the way that normal threads should be handled. Natural selection rules in this jungle.
Civilians tackling a gunman outside the Whitehouse is hardly comparable to a comedian/journalist deciding to attack another American expressing his political views at a political rally.
hmmm...couple guys tackle a gunman in order to save lives, Franken jumps a guy for being loud and rude. Yup, those are two incidents that resonate with similarity.
Not only that but the Dean security detail had handled the hecklers repeatedly and Franken still felt the need to jump in.
Actually what is most amazing about this is Franken writes in his book about going around basically heckling and harassing people on a number of occasions. There was the rather infamous incident where people complained about Bill O'Reilly yelling at Franken, but of course O'Reilly never HIT Franken who was obviously heckling him during his speech.
He spends numerous chapters in his book talking about how he calls up folks and challenges them to fights, harasses them. Acts like an ass and then gets treated accordingly which he then uses as proof how how horrible those people are....
... and then we see what happens when the tables are reversed....
Franken isn't just a liar. He is a world class hypocrite. He makes his living basically heckling and harassing others and then can't even let the security handle their own responsibilities because he wants to get a lick in on the one guy in the room who acts most like him. The heckler was even calling Dean a liar.
He spends numerous chapters in his book talking about how he calls up folks and challenges them to fights, harasses them.
No, he spends about a page talking about challenging Lowry to a fight (and then a page or two of the transcript, IIRC) to make a joke about Lowry's claim that democrats has "sissyfied" politics. It's actually pretty amusing.
So where exactly are these "numerous chapters?"
Quote:
Franken isn't just a liar.
Franken's a liar? Where? I guess you must be talking about something not in his book.
Civilians tackling a gunman outside the Whitehouse is hardly comparable to a comedian/journalist deciding to attack another American expressing his political views at a political rally.
hmmm...couple guys tackle a gunman in order to save lives, Franken jumps a guy for being loud and rude. Yup, those are two incidents that resonate with similarity.
No, he spends about a page talking about challenging Lowry to a fight (and then a page or two of the transcript, IIRC) to make a joke about Lowry's claim that democrats has "sissyfied" politics. It's actually pretty amusing.
So where exactly are these "numerous chapters?"
Franken's a liar? Where? I guess you must be talking about something not in his book.
Look don't complain to me that some of his "chapters" are only a couple of pages long. I called his book nothing more than light almost comic book level reading quite a while ago. He also talks about meeting with Mrs. Bush and it "not going well." Then I remember he went to the White House Correspondents Dinner and Annoyed Karl Rove, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and the Entire Fox News Team. I don't recall perfectly, but didn't the Paul Gigot chapter involve a phone call as well, or something of that nature?
I also believe I mentioned the false letters to Ashcroft which were obviously heckling him about his Christian views. Franken even had to apologize for the lies he told in the letter and for using the letterhead in an unauthorized fashion.
Folks, it's a NY Post article. If you believe it word for word you have to be ignorant of the NY Post. Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
Some of you are blind with stupidity and hatred when it comes to Franken. You WANT to believe he's a hypocrite because that will help your arguments so you'll latch onto something mostly unbelievable and ignore the truth when you're faced with it.
Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
No one here knows what really happened. If the guy started screaming threats, or made physical contact with other member of the audience, then he may need to be subdued. Who knows what circumstances there were, but no matter how much you ignore it, the guy may have needed to be subdued.
Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
Just got off the phone with Symbolman - he was outside the Merrimac Restaurant in Manchester, NH where CNN is broadcasting, and he said things got a bit testy when Bob Novak came out of the restaurant, heading for the CNN bus.
Apparently, someone from the crowd got on Novak's case, calling him a traitor a few times. Novak went ballistic - Sym decribed it as a 'Lee Harvey Oswald moment' - and went over and shoved the guy, sending him sprawling.
And surprisingly CNN sees the distrubance in a different way...
MANCHESTER, New Hampshire (CNN) -- Followers of perennial presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche interrupted a campaign event for former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean on Monday before being drowned out by Dean supporters and removed from the room with the assistance of comedian Al Franken.
As Dean was addressing a crowd in Manchester, the fans of LaRouche -- who is something of an outcast in the Democratic Party for his extremist views -- began screaming that Dean is "a liar" and not a Democrat. They said the only candidates telling the truth are LaRouche and Sen. John Kerry, the apparent front-runner in the race.
The crowd began cheering "Howard Dean, Howard Dean," drowning out the LaRouche supporters as they were removed from the room.
Franken, a comedian and self-described liberal well-known for his attacks on the Bush administration and conservative-leaning media, helped carry out one of the disrupters. In the process, Franken's glasses were knocked off his face and broke in two.
Putting them back together with electrical tape, he quipped he had been "deputized" by Dean's security.
LaRouche supporters also heckled Sen. Joe Lieberman at a town hall meeting at Milly's Tavern in Manchester Monday evening.
Observers said the LaRouche crowd was forcibly removed by Lieberman supporters and Capitol Hill security staff who guard the senator.
Several people in the audience said they were completely unaware that there had been any disruption, but the Manchester Police were summoned to the scene and responded en masse
Folks, it's a NY Post article. If you believe it word for word you have to be ignorant of the NY Post. Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
Some of you are blind with stupidity and hatred when it comes to Franken. You WANT to believe he's a hypocrite because that will help your arguments so you'll latch onto something mostly unbelievable and ignore the truth when you're faced with it.
Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
No one here knows what really happened. If the guy started screaming threats, or made physical contact with other member of the audience, then he may need to be subdued. Who knows what circumstances there were, but no matter how much you ignore it, the guy may have needed to be subdued.
Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
Bunge,
Do you really know how to deflect from the core issue that this is a demonstrated, repeated type attitude of Franken?
I could repeat that a couple more times if you like.
There were at least three sources posted about the Franken incident in this thread.
Some of the others added more details, like the number of hecklers, Security taking them outside, etc. But not a one of them declared that Franken hadn't gotten physical with the heckler.
I don't hate Franken, I just hate his hypocracy. The point is that the heckler was doing exactly what Franken does. He calls people liars, gets into their personal space and challenges them in odd ways or at inappropriate times, and then calls the odd responses comedy gold. As I mentioned there were several chapters from his last book that went into this behavior specifically.
Now whether or not the "guy" needed to be subdued, the point is that no article presented the guy as any more than an annoyance. Additionally they mentioned that security was on the job and had already acted at least twice previous to the action Franken took.
Look bunge, what you should admit is that Franken can do no wrong in your book, and that he clearly did wrong here. He rose up out of the press secion where he was seated, and took the guy on when it was clear security would have handled it. He did so probably because he was pissed that the guy was harassing politicians and calling them liars, which obviously was his job. Franken might be "Funnier than Kharap Juta" but that doesn't mean his annoying name calling, lying and heckling is any funnier to those who disagree with him, than the LaRouche supporter he disagreed with and found annoying.
Thanks for posting this. However, while I am glad to finally see legitimate criticisms, there are a few problems, errors and flat out spin on that site.
(of the ones I've looked at)
First, though, #1 & #7 are totally legit criticisms. Apparently his infatuation with Clinton got the best of him. This is a pretty major mistake if you ask me.
In #15 they are basically dead wrong on this, no matter how you look at it. The PDB is considered formally the Director of Central Intelligence's (in this case Tenet) formal daily briefing to the President, and the DCI often accompanies the CIA briefer. In addition, their claim that it was not titled is unfounded. Even Fleischer has discussed the fact that it had a title.
In fact, if you look at the source for the claim, it is Miniter, who credibility is just about zero, and will likely become fully zero as soon as the ISG report comes out.
#4 is extremely problematic. Many people have discussed the alleged sudanses/bin laden offer, and whether there was really an offer is in question. Mansoor Ijaz is not the saint they spin him as, and look whos name has popped up again in sources. At best, they are guilty of what they accuse Franken of. And basing their criticism on a single general statement by Clinton is really dumb, especially since they could have done real research. Their gripe also should not be with Franken, but with Berger and Benjamin, since they were franken's source for the 'no offer' statement.
#12 is obviously a mistake, but if someone wants to claim it is a bold-faced like I suppose they are free to do so.
#13 is just stupid criticism and this site actually lies in the process. In fact, talkingpointsmemo.com is cited, and Josh Marshall's TPM is considered in high regard. It's actually interesting to see some of the people that read it, mainly because it is an example of a blog (and in a blog community) that is very dependent on peer review.
#10 is just stupid, and not an example of anything remotely resembling a lie. I am Irish, and I don't need some assholes pretending to defend me. If you want to discuss racism against the Irish, talk about the ignored Irish slavey in early america, where Irish were considered disposable compared to black slaves.
Comments
Originally posted by bunge
Not true actually. Any civilian can act if necessary, the only real question is was this necessary or was this excessive. Don't you remember the two civilians that tackled the gunman outside of the White House a few years ago? It was legal too.
Gun at whitehouse....hecklers and Dean rally.....not quite grasping that yet.
Originally posted by bunge
Not true actually. Any civilian can act if necessary, the only real question is was this necessary or was this excessive. Don't you remember the two civilians that tackled the gunman outside of the White House a few years ago? It was legal too.
Please tell me you don't believe any of what you have posted.
Originally posted by Argento
Gun at whitehouse....hecklers and Dean rally.....not quite grasping that yet.
Civilian acting. Not that difficult to grasp. Well, not for everyone.
Originally posted by Scott
Please tell me you don't believe any of what you have posted.
As long as you disagree with it I'm pretty sure it's right.
Originally posted by bunge
Not true actually. Any civilian can act if necessary, the only real question is was this necessary or was this excessive. Don't you remember the two civilians that tackled the gunman outside of the White House a few years ago? It was legal too.
Civilians tackling a gunman outside the Whitehouse is hardly comparable to a comedian/journalist deciding to attack another American expressing his political views at a political rally.
hmmm...couple guys tackle a gunman in order to save lives, Franken jumps a guy for being loud and rude. Yup, those are two incidents that resonate with similarity.
Remember Dean's scream? In context it's arguably an impassioned spur-of-the-moment speech - out of context it's proof of concept that Dean is a madman. This does nothing but lower Franken's first-blush credibility to those who have no preconceived feelings about the man.
BuonRotto:
Yeah, other than laughing I'd say that this thread has just about run its course...but I certainly wouldn't close it. Let it die on its own, that's the way that normal threads should be handled. Natural selection rules in this jungle.
Originally posted by bunge
Not true actually. Any civilian can act if necessary, the only real question is was this necessary or was this excessive.
That's the point. It's true even if scott doesn't like it.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Civilians tackling a gunman outside the Whitehouse is hardly comparable to a comedian/journalist deciding to attack another American expressing his political views at a political rally.
hmmm...couple guys tackle a gunman in order to save lives, Franken jumps a guy for being loud and rude. Yup, those are two incidents that resonate with similarity.
Not only that but the Dean security detail had handled the hecklers repeatedly and Franken still felt the need to jump in.
Actually what is most amazing about this is Franken writes in his book about going around basically heckling and harassing people on a number of occasions. There was the rather infamous incident where people complained about Bill O'Reilly yelling at Franken, but of course O'Reilly never HIT Franken who was obviously heckling him during his speech.
He spends numerous chapters in his book talking about how he calls up folks and challenges them to fights, harasses them. Acts like an ass and then gets treated accordingly which he then uses as proof how how horrible those people are....
... and then we see what happens when the tables are reversed....
Franken isn't just a liar. He is a world class hypocrite. He makes his living basically heckling and harassing others and then can't even let the security handle their own responsibilities because he wants to get a lick in on the one guy in the room who acts most like him. The heckler was even calling Dean a liar.
Nick
A LaRouche wacko gets taken out!!!!
Originally posted by trumptman
He spends numerous chapters in his book talking about how he calls up folks and challenges them to fights, harasses them.
No, he spends about a page talking about challenging Lowry to a fight (and then a page or two of the transcript, IIRC) to make a joke about Lowry's claim that democrats has "sissyfied" politics. It's actually pretty amusing.
So where exactly are these "numerous chapters?"
Franken isn't just a liar.
Franken's a liar? Where? I guess you must be talking about something not in his book.
Originally posted by bunge
Not true actually. Any civilian can act if necessary, the only real question is was this necessary or was this excessive.
There are questions in your mind in this regard?
Originally posted by Tulkas
Civilians tackling a gunman outside the Whitehouse is hardly comparable to a comedian/journalist deciding to attack another American expressing his political views at a political rally.
hmmm...couple guys tackle a gunman in order to save lives, Franken jumps a guy for being loud and rude. Yup, those are two incidents that resonate with similarity.
Now now don't confuse him with the obvious
Originally posted by giant
No, he spends about a page talking about challenging Lowry to a fight (and then a page or two of the transcript, IIRC) to make a joke about Lowry's claim that democrats has "sissyfied" politics. It's actually pretty amusing.
So where exactly are these "numerous chapters?"
Franken's a liar? Where? I guess you must be talking about something not in his book.
Look don't complain to me that some of his "chapters" are only a couple of pages long. I called his book nothing more than light almost comic book level reading quite a while ago. He also talks about meeting with Mrs. Bush and it "not going well." Then I remember he went to the White House Correspondents Dinner and Annoyed Karl Rove, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and the Entire Fox News Team. I don't recall perfectly, but didn't the Paul Gigot chapter involve a phone call as well, or something of that nature?
I also believe I mentioned the false letters to Ashcroft which were obviously heckling him about his Christian views. Franken even had to apologize for the lies he told in the letter and for using the letterhead in an unauthorized fashion.
Nick
Originally posted by Blue Shift
There are questions in your mind in this regard?
Folks, it's a NY Post article. If you believe it word for word you have to be ignorant of the NY Post. Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
Some of you are blind with stupidity and hatred when it comes to Franken. You WANT to believe he's a hypocrite because that will help your arguments so you'll latch onto something mostly unbelievable and ignore the truth when you're faced with it.
Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
No one here knows what really happened. If the guy started screaming threats, or made physical contact with other member of the audience, then he may need to be subdued. Who knows what circumstances there were, but no matter how much you ignore it, the guy may have needed to be subdued.
Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
Originally posted by giant
Franken's a liar? Where? I guess you must be talking about something not in his book.
http://www.frankenlies.com/
http://www.blah3.com/graymatter/archives/00000912.html
NH citizen gets under Novakula's skin....
Just got off the phone with Symbolman - he was outside the Merrimac Restaurant in Manchester, NH where CNN is broadcasting, and he said things got a bit testy when Bob Novak came out of the restaurant, heading for the CNN bus.
Apparently, someone from the crowd got on Novak's case, calling him a traitor a few times. Novak went ballistic - Sym decribed it as a 'Lee Harvey Oswald moment' - and went over and shoved the guy, sending him sprawling.
And surprisingly CNN sees the distrubance in a different way...
MANCHESTER, New Hampshire (CNN) -- Followers of perennial presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche interrupted a campaign event for former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean on Monday before being drowned out by Dean supporters and removed from the room with the assistance of comedian Al Franken.
As Dean was addressing a crowd in Manchester, the fans of LaRouche -- who is something of an outcast in the Democratic Party for his extremist views -- began screaming that Dean is "a liar" and not a Democrat. They said the only candidates telling the truth are LaRouche and Sen. John Kerry, the apparent front-runner in the race.
The crowd began cheering "Howard Dean, Howard Dean," drowning out the LaRouche supporters as they were removed from the room.
Franken, a comedian and self-described liberal well-known for his attacks on the Bush administration and conservative-leaning media, helped carry out one of the disrupters. In the process, Franken's glasses were knocked off his face and broke in two.
Putting them back together with electrical tape, he quipped he had been "deputized" by Dean's security.
LaRouche supporters also heckled Sen. Joe Lieberman at a town hall meeting at Milly's Tavern in Manchester Monday evening.
Observers said the LaRouche crowd was forcibly removed by Lieberman supporters and Capitol Hill security staff who guard the senator.
Several people in the audience said they were completely unaware that there had been any disruption, but the Manchester Police were summoned to the scene and responded en masse
Franken said he's not backing Dean but merely wanted to protect the right of people to speak freely.
Originally posted by bunge
Folks, it's a NY Post article. If you believe it word for word you have to be ignorant of the NY Post. Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
Some of you are blind with stupidity and hatred when it comes to Franken. You WANT to believe he's a hypocrite because that will help your arguments so you'll latch onto something mostly unbelievable and ignore the truth when you're faced with it.
Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
No one here knows what really happened. If the guy started screaming threats, or made physical contact with other member of the audience, then he may need to be subdued. Who knows what circumstances there were, but no matter how much you ignore it, the guy may have needed to be subdued.
Trumptman, do you really trust any accounting of a story from the NY Post?
Bunge,
Do you really know how to deflect from the core issue that this is a demonstrated, repeated type attitude of Franken?
I could repeat that a couple more times if you like.
There were at least three sources posted about the Franken incident in this thread.
Some of the others added more details, like the number of hecklers, Security taking them outside, etc. But not a one of them declared that Franken hadn't gotten physical with the heckler.
I don't hate Franken, I just hate his hypocracy. The point is that the heckler was doing exactly what Franken does. He calls people liars, gets into their personal space and challenges them in odd ways or at inappropriate times, and then calls the odd responses comedy gold. As I mentioned there were several chapters from his last book that went into this behavior specifically.
Now whether or not the "guy" needed to be subdued, the point is that no article presented the guy as any more than an annoyance. Additionally they mentioned that security was on the job and had already acted at least twice previous to the action Franken took.
Look bunge, what you should admit is that Franken can do no wrong in your book, and that he clearly did wrong here. He rose up out of the press secion where he was seated, and took the guy on when it was clear security would have handled it. He did so probably because he was pissed that the guy was harassing politicians and calling them liars, which obviously was his job. Franken might be "Funnier than Kharap Juta" but that doesn't mean his annoying name calling, lying and heckling is any funnier to those who disagree with him, than the LaRouche supporter he disagreed with and found annoying.
Nick
FRANKENLIES
is seriously awesome refutation of Al Franken's book. Thanks for the interesting link.
Originally posted by Mike
http://www.frankenlies.com/
Thanks for posting this. However, while I am glad to finally see legitimate criticisms, there are a few problems, errors and flat out spin on that site.
(of the ones I've looked at)
First, though, #1 & #7 are totally legit criticisms. Apparently his infatuation with Clinton got the best of him. This is a pretty major mistake if you ask me.
In #15 they are basically dead wrong on this, no matter how you look at it. The PDB is considered formally the Director of Central Intelligence's (in this case Tenet) formal daily briefing to the President, and the DCI often accompanies the CIA briefer. In addition, their claim that it was not titled is unfounded. Even Fleischer has discussed the fact that it had a title.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...¬Found=true
In fact, if you look at the source for the claim, it is Miniter, who credibility is just about zero, and will likely become fully zero as soon as the ISG report comes out.
#4 is extremely problematic. Many people have discussed the alleged sudanses/bin laden offer, and whether there was really an offer is in question. Mansoor Ijaz is not the saint they spin him as, and look whos name has popped up again in sources. At best, they are guilty of what they accuse Franken of. And basing their criticism on a single general statement by Clinton is really dumb, especially since they could have done real research. Their gripe also should not be with Franken, but with Berger and Benjamin, since they were franken's source for the 'no offer' statement.
#12 is obviously a mistake, but if someone wants to claim it is a bold-faced like I suppose they are free to do so.
#13 is just stupid criticism and this site actually lies in the process. In fact, talkingpointsmemo.com is cited, and Josh Marshall's TPM is considered in high regard. It's actually interesting to see some of the people that read it, mainly because it is an example of a blog (and in a blog community) that is very dependent on peer review.
#8 & #6 are totally legit citicisms.
#10 is just stupid, and not an example of anything remotely resembling a lie. I am Irish, and I don't need some assholes pretending to defend me. If you want to discuss racism against the Irish, talk about the ignored Irish slavey in early america, where Irish were considered disposable compared to black slaves.
More to come if I have time.