Thanks for posting this. However, there are a few problems, errors and flat out spin on that site.
In #15 they are basically dead wrong on this, no matter how you look at it. The PDB is considered formally the Director of Central Intelligence's (in this case Tenet) formal daily briefing to the President, and the DCI often accompanies the CIA briefer. In addition, their claim that it was not titled is unfounded. Even Fleischer has discussed the fact that it had a title.
In fact, if you look at the source for the claim, it is Miniter, who credibility is just about zero, and will likely become fully zero as soon as the ISG report comes out.
#13 is just stupid criticism and this site actually lies in the process. In fact, talkingpointsmemo.com is cited, and Josh Marshall's TPM is considered in very high regard across all groups.
You make a good point giant, but given the nature of your source and the information mentioned in his point 16, wouldn't the whole "Operation Ignore" point be a lie?
This is from your own source regarding the memo.
Quote:
Bush had specifically asked for an intelligence analysis of possible al Qaeda attacks within the United States, because most of the information presented to him over the summer about al Qaeda focused on threats against U.S. targets overseas, sources said. But one source said the White House was disappointed because the analysis lacked focus and did not present fresh intelligence.
If Bush is requesting this info, noting that all the previous intelligence kept focusing on overseas, that doesn't sound like someone "Ignoring" their duties.
As for point number 13, the criticism was two-fold and is valid.
First the site claims that Franken mentions blogs as a source. Blog have no editors, no claims of journalistic integrity, and no need to claim they are fair or impartial. They also don?t have to prove anything because, it is just someone spouting off.
That being said, I do feel Talkingpoints Memo and other blogs do add some nice spice to regular news coverage. It gives some personal insight that has to be left out of the regular reporting and while I enjoy reading it, I don?t call it the news. It is anecdotal observation and should be treated as such.
The second issue he brings up is that Franken, who spends an awful lot of time screaming about the endnotes/footnotes of Coulter doesn?t have well documented endnotes, doesn?t have an index and doesn?t even list which blogs he obtained this information from so it could be followed up or verified.
I believe both points truthful and valid, regardless of political perspective.
You make a good point giant, but given the nature of your source and the information mentioned in his point 16, wouldn't the whole "Operation Ignore" point be a lie?
There is no question at all that the Bush admin put anti-terrorism on the back burned in relation to other issues.
Quote:
As for point number 13, the criticism was two-fold and is valid.
First the site claims that Franken mentions blogs as a source. Blog have no editors, no claims of journalistic integrity, and no need to claim they are fair or impartial.
That being said, I do feel Talkingpoints Memo and other blogs do add some nice spice to regular news coverage. It gives some personal insight that has to be left out of the regular reporting and while I enjoy reading it, I don?t call it the news. It is anecdotal observation and should be treated as such.
Peer review, and review by people actually involved in the events is what make TPM so interesting. There have been quite a few times when individuals directly associated with an event or situation being discussed will write in to add to what Josh Marshall writes, particularly on issues involving Iraq and al-qaeda (or maybe those are just the ones I notice the most). Marshall also often addresses reader comments requesting more detail if something is in question. Then there is the fact that all the other bloggers keep tabs on one another.
Quote:
The second issue he brings up is that Franken, who spends an awful lot of time screaming about the endnotes/footnotes of Coulter doesn?t have well documented endnotes, doesn?t have an index and doesn?t even list which blogs he obtained this information from so it could be followed up or verified.
I think the book absolutly should have had footnotes. Not including them was extremely bad, IMO.
As for listing them, here is the claim on the site:
Quote:
and he doesn?t even cite a single specific blog address for someone to investigate for himself!
Jan 27. Smear. The Fox-owned NY Post and conservative magazines have launched a smear campaign against Al Franken by taking one incident out of context. Here, we are given the image of an unstable Al Franken attacking a poor man without warrant. In the NY Post, no description of the heckler is mentioned except that he was "shouting accusations." Newsmax portrays the heckler as the victim. Sounds bad, doesn't it? Al Franken just attacking innocent hecklers. Indeed, the way the story is framed in the conservative papers makes Franken sound bad. However, both of the conservative papers took the incident completely out of context. Indeed, they failed to mention some important parts of the story:
Point #1: The Heckler First Attacked People. According to Palace Theatre's manager, the heckler attacked the security guards and the theater manager:
Two members of Dean's security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.
"He was screaming. He was out of control," Ramsey said.
Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.
Point #2: Out of Control Attacker Then Presented Danger to Dean and Crowd. So what else did the heckler do that the conservative media did not report? He posed a potential danger to Howard Dean who, since he is a presidential candidate, is always subject to risk.
The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.
"I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean," Ramsey said.
One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler "kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback."
"The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something," Wendy Branch of Northwood said. "Even if he didn't intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming."
Point #3: Franken Subdued the Attacker Only After He was Attacked. Al Franken was with the security guards trying to help get the heckler out of the room. However, it was only after the heckler physically attacked Franken and broke his glasses that Franken resorted to a wrestling move intended to subdue the attacker:
Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.
Indeed, while the Post used loaded language - "'body-slammed" - the reality is Franken subdued a man who had already assaulted two security guards. Indeed, this is why the theater manager said:
I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero
Summary: Why did such a potentially scandalous story have so few details in the NY Post and Newsmax? Why were the New York Post and Newsmax.com slim on details of the protestor and his actions? The answer is that presenting the full and real story would detract from the ambiguous and negative picture presented of Franken, as you saw in points 1-3 ...
The conservative media will continue to spin this in the way they see fit: Nut-case Franken assaulted an innocent man without warrant. Put Franken in jail! However, as a complete account from people there showed, the conservative media left out crucial details of an affair in which Al helped security guards stop an angry assaulter who attacked others and further presented a danger to the people around him.
Jan 27. Smear. The Fox-owned NY Post and conservative magazines have launched a smear campaign against Al Franken by taking one incident out of context. Here, we are given the image of an unstable Al Franken attacking a poor man without warrant. In the NY Post, no description of the heckler is mentioned except that he was "shouting accusations." Newsmax portrays the heckler as the victim. Sounds bad, doesn't it? Al Franken just attacking innocent hecklers. Indeed, the way the story is framed in the conservative papers makes Franken sound bad. However, both of the conservative papers took the incident completely out of context. Indeed, they failed to mention some important parts of the story:
Point #1: The Heckler First Attacked People. According to Palace Theatre's manager, the heckler attacked the security guards and the theater manager:
Two members of Dean's security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.
"He was screaming. He was out of control," Ramsey said.
Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.
Point #2: Out of Control Attacker Then Presented Danger to Dean and Crowd. So what else did the heckler do that the conservative media did not report? He posed a potential danger to Howard Dean who, since he is a presidential candidate, is always subject to risk.
The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.
"I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean," Ramsey said.
One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler "kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback."
"The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something," Wendy Branch of Northwood said. "Even if he didn't intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming."
Point #3: Franken Subdued the Attacker Only After He was Attacked. Al Franken was with the security guards trying to help get the heckler out of the room. However, it was only after the heckler physically attacked Franken and broke his glasses that Franken resorted to a wrestling move intended to subdue the attacker:
Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.
Indeed, while the Post used loaded language - "'body-slammed" - the reality is Franken subdued a man who had already assaulted two security guards. Indeed, this is why the theater manager said:
I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero
Summary: Why did such a potentially scandalous story have so few details in the NY Post and Newsmax? Why were the New York Post and Newsmax.com slim on details of the protestor and his actions? The answer is that presenting the full and real story would detract from the ambiguous and negative picture presented of Franken, as you saw in points 1-3 ...
The conservative media will continue to spin this in the way they see fit: Nut-case Franken assaulted an innocent man without warrant. Put Franken in jail! However, as a complete account from people there showed, the conservative media left out crucial details of an affair in which Al helped security guards stop an angry assaulter who attacked others and further presented a danger to the people around him.
Amazing that none of the three sources, including the non NY Post sources mentioned this incident in this way. I think if there were a legitimate danger to a presidential candidate that would have been well covered by pretty much any and all news sources.
AL FRANKENMANCHESTER ? Liberal activist and comedian Al Franken helped eject a boisterous heckler from a crowded Howard Dean rally at the Palace Theatre Monday, the theater?s manager said yesterday.
The heckler began yelling from the rear of the theater while the Democratic Presidential hopeful was taking questions from the audience, theater manager Peter Ramsey said.
Two members of Dean?s security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.
?He was screaming. He was out of control,? Ramsey said.
Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.
?All of a sudden, I looked to my right, and Al Franken was grabbing onto this man?s back,? Ramsey said.
?He (Franken) gave him a hefty Patriots block. He should be a Patriot,? Ramsey said.
?I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero,? Ramsey said of the former ?Saturday Night Live? writer.
Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.
When a second heckler ? apparently working in tandem with the first ? emerged from the audience, Dean security men and Franken went over to deal with him while the first protester headed to the balcony, Ramsey said.
While Ramsey pursued the first man to the balcony, he said, he saw Franken and three other men escort the second heckler out the stage door.
Once in the balcony, Ramsey encountered a more disturbing sight.
The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.
?I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean,? Ramsey said.
One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler ?kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback.?
?The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something,? Wendy Branch of Northwood said. ?Even if he didn?t intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming.?
Ramsey said the heckler left quietly after Ramsey threatened to call the police. But Ramsey figured the more likely reason the protester left was that few television cameras were set up in the balcony.
Ramsey said Dean?s staff told him the protesters were supporters of fringe Presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche.
Franken told the New York Post he body-slammed the demonstrator to the ground.
?I got down low and took his legs out,? Franken told the newspaper.
Franken said he is not backing Dean, but merely wanted to protect free-speech rights.
?I would have done it if he was a Dean supporter at a Kerry rally,? he told the Post.
Dateline . . . Manchester
EXETER ? Police Chief Richard Kane spent much of yesterday telling people other than news reporters to get their facts straight.
A dateline on a New York Post story apparently left many readers with the mistaken impression that humorist and political commentator Al Franken?s sacking of a heckler at a rally for Democratic Presidential candidate Howard Dean on Monday had occurred in Exeter, when in fact it happened in Manchester.
That got phones ringing and e-mail alerts dinging at the Exeter Police Department, where Kane, who in midafternoon had just gotten off the phone with someone from Seattle, said he had heard from about 20 people about the incident since around 10 a.m.
?Now I?m to the point of not answering,? said Kane, adding he didn?t have the ability to create an automated message to handle such calls, but thought it better to respond in person anyway.
He said he was referring callers to the Post. He said he?d tried without success to speak with someone at the New York tabloid, but presumed the reporter, Vincent Morris, had sent the story from Exeter and that?s why it carried the town?s dateline.
In fact, that is exactly what happened, according to Gregg Birnbaum, the New York-based political editor for the Post. He said Morris had been traveling with the Dean campaign to several stops that day and while the original story did contain a reference to the Palace Theatre in Manchester as the location of the dustup, it was edited out of the final piece. ?The general policy is where the story is written,? Birnbaum said last night.
Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.
Some of you should feel like ****ing morons. Stupid, childish, immature morons. If you don't, you should figure out HOW to feel like stupid, childish, immature ****ing morons.
Some of you should feel like ****ing morons. Stupid, childish, immature morons. If you don't, you should figure out HOW to feel like stupid, childish, immature ****ing morons.
Get a grip on yourself. The NY Post had a direct quote from Franken saying he had taken the guy out low. The other spin stories had Franken just escorting the guy out of the room.
Don't you think Franken would certainly mention if he had been intentionally misquoted?
Notice how not a single one of the spin stories actually quotes Franken? I mean how easy would it be to simply call up Al Franken and get some quotes from him on what happened?
Instead they use a surrogate of the theater manager proclaiming their whole side of the story and exaggerating every detail.
This is a well known tactic, send out the surrogate because if Franken had to tell the story, he would have to lie to spin it the way the theater manager does. The theater manager can say whatever he wants and wasn't involved in the actual incident. Thus he can quote his "perceptions" of how violent the heckler was or harmful he might have been to Dean, the audience, etc. without being called on it since he is just sharing his feelings.
The point that Franken tackled a heckler, not some threat to Dean or anyone else still remains true. One theater manager doesn't change the facts of that in my mind. Likewise the lack of Franken actually speaking and addressing it head on tells me exactly what happened and who is being protected.
Yes, well my "SNL skit" about Franken has the actual words of Franken saying what he did. This is known as a primary source.
Your articles have secondary sources and somehow you consider them more valid.
It is obvious Franken could simply speak up and say what happened and what he did. The guy isn't exactly known for keeping quiet. It is obvious he did more or else he would say more.
Comments
Originally posted by giant
Thanks for posting this. However, there are a few problems, errors and flat out spin on that site.
In #15 they are basically dead wrong on this, no matter how you look at it. The PDB is considered formally the Director of Central Intelligence's (in this case Tenet) formal daily briefing to the President, and the DCI often accompanies the CIA briefer. In addition, their claim that it was not titled is unfounded. Even Fleischer has discussed the fact that it had a title.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...¬Found=true
In fact, if you look at the source for the claim, it is Miniter, who credibility is just about zero, and will likely become fully zero as soon as the ISG report comes out.
#13 is just stupid criticism and this site actually lies in the process. In fact, talkingpointsmemo.com is cited, and Josh Marshall's TPM is considered in very high regard across all groups.
#8 & #6 are totally legit citicisms.
More to come if I have time.
You make a good point giant, but given the nature of your source and the information mentioned in his point 16, wouldn't the whole "Operation Ignore" point be a lie?
This is from your own source regarding the memo.
Bush had specifically asked for an intelligence analysis of possible al Qaeda attacks within the United States, because most of the information presented to him over the summer about al Qaeda focused on threats against U.S. targets overseas, sources said. But one source said the White House was disappointed because the analysis lacked focus and did not present fresh intelligence.
If Bush is requesting this info, noting that all the previous intelligence kept focusing on overseas, that doesn't sound like someone "Ignoring" their duties.
As for point number 13, the criticism was two-fold and is valid.
First the site claims that Franken mentions blogs as a source. Blog have no editors, no claims of journalistic integrity, and no need to claim they are fair or impartial. They also don?t have to prove anything because, it is just someone spouting off.
That being said, I do feel Talkingpoints Memo and other blogs do add some nice spice to regular news coverage. It gives some personal insight that has to be left out of the regular reporting and while I enjoy reading it, I don?t call it the news. It is anecdotal observation and should be treated as such.
The second issue he brings up is that Franken, who spends an awful lot of time screaming about the endnotes/footnotes of Coulter doesn?t have well documented endnotes, doesn?t have an index and doesn?t even list which blogs he obtained this information from so it could be followed up or verified.
I believe both points truthful and valid, regardless of political perspective.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
You make a good point giant, but given the nature of your source and the information mentioned in his point 16, wouldn't the whole "Operation Ignore" point be a lie?
There is no question at all that the Bush admin put anti-terrorism on the back burned in relation to other issues.
As for point number 13, the criticism was two-fold and is valid.
First the site claims that Franken mentions blogs as a source. Blog have no editors, no claims of journalistic integrity, and no need to claim they are fair or impartial.
That being said, I do feel Talkingpoints Memo and other blogs do add some nice spice to regular news coverage. It gives some personal insight that has to be left out of the regular reporting and while I enjoy reading it, I don?t call it the news. It is anecdotal observation and should be treated as such.
Peer review, and review by people actually involved in the events is what make TPM so interesting. There have been quite a few times when individuals directly associated with an event or situation being discussed will write in to add to what Josh Marshall writes, particularly on issues involving Iraq and al-qaeda (or maybe those are just the ones I notice the most). Marshall also often addresses reader comments requesting more detail if something is in question. Then there is the fact that all the other bloggers keep tabs on one another.
The second issue he brings up is that Franken, who spends an awful lot of time screaming about the endnotes/footnotes of Coulter doesn?t have well documented endnotes, doesn?t have an index and doesn?t even list which blogs he obtained this information from so it could be followed up or verified.
I think the book absolutly should have had footnotes. Not including them was extremely bad, IMO.
As for listing them, here is the claim on the site:
and he doesn?t even cite a single specific blog address for someone to investigate for himself!
This is just flat-out false.
Originally posted by trumptman
But not a one of them declared that Franken hadn't gotten physical with the heckler.
Who cares? Getting physical is sometimes legal and necessary.
The one endnote he has busts on Ann Coulter.
Jan 27. Smear. The Fox-owned NY Post and conservative magazines have launched a smear campaign against Al Franken by taking one incident out of context. Here, we are given the image of an unstable Al Franken attacking a poor man without warrant. In the NY Post, no description of the heckler is mentioned except that he was "shouting accusations." Newsmax portrays the heckler as the victim. Sounds bad, doesn't it? Al Franken just attacking innocent hecklers. Indeed, the way the story is framed in the conservative papers makes Franken sound bad. However, both of the conservative papers took the incident completely out of context. Indeed, they failed to mention some important parts of the story:
Point #1: The Heckler First Attacked People. According to Palace Theatre's manager, the heckler attacked the security guards and the theater manager:
Two members of Dean's security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.
"He was screaming. He was out of control," Ramsey said.
Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.
Point #2: Out of Control Attacker Then Presented Danger to Dean and Crowd. So what else did the heckler do that the conservative media did not report? He posed a potential danger to Howard Dean who, since he is a presidential candidate, is always subject to risk.
The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.
"I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean," Ramsey said.
One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler "kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback."
"The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something," Wendy Branch of Northwood said. "Even if he didn't intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming."
Point #3: Franken Subdued the Attacker Only After He was Attacked. Al Franken was with the security guards trying to help get the heckler out of the room. However, it was only after the heckler physically attacked Franken and broke his glasses that Franken resorted to a wrestling move intended to subdue the attacker:
Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.
Indeed, while the Post used loaded language - "'body-slammed" - the reality is Franken subdued a man who had already assaulted two security guards. Indeed, this is why the theater manager said:
I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero
Summary: Why did such a potentially scandalous story have so few details in the NY Post and Newsmax? Why were the New York Post and Newsmax.com slim on details of the protestor and his actions? The answer is that presenting the full and real story would detract from the ambiguous and negative picture presented of Franken, as you saw in points 1-3 ...
The conservative media will continue to spin this in the way they see fit: Nut-case Franken assaulted an innocent man without warrant. Put Franken in jail! However, as a complete account from people there showed, the conservative media left out crucial details of an affair in which Al helped security guards stop an angry assaulter who attacked others and further presented a danger to the people around him.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
from alfrankenweb.com
Jan 27. Smear. The Fox-owned NY Post and conservative magazines have launched a smear campaign against Al Franken by taking one incident out of context. Here, we are given the image of an unstable Al Franken attacking a poor man without warrant. In the NY Post, no description of the heckler is mentioned except that he was "shouting accusations." Newsmax portrays the heckler as the victim. Sounds bad, doesn't it? Al Franken just attacking innocent hecklers. Indeed, the way the story is framed in the conservative papers makes Franken sound bad. However, both of the conservative papers took the incident completely out of context. Indeed, they failed to mention some important parts of the story:
Point #1: The Heckler First Attacked People. According to Palace Theatre's manager, the heckler attacked the security guards and the theater manager:
Two members of Dean's security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.
"He was screaming. He was out of control," Ramsey said.
Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.
Point #2: Out of Control Attacker Then Presented Danger to Dean and Crowd. So what else did the heckler do that the conservative media did not report? He posed a potential danger to Howard Dean who, since he is a presidential candidate, is always subject to risk.
The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.
"I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean," Ramsey said.
One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler "kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback."
"The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something," Wendy Branch of Northwood said. "Even if he didn't intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming."
Point #3: Franken Subdued the Attacker Only After He was Attacked. Al Franken was with the security guards trying to help get the heckler out of the room. However, it was only after the heckler physically attacked Franken and broke his glasses that Franken resorted to a wrestling move intended to subdue the attacker:
Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.
Indeed, while the Post used loaded language - "'body-slammed" - the reality is Franken subdued a man who had already assaulted two security guards. Indeed, this is why the theater manager said:
I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero
Summary: Why did such a potentially scandalous story have so few details in the NY Post and Newsmax? Why were the New York Post and Newsmax.com slim on details of the protestor and his actions? The answer is that presenting the full and real story would detract from the ambiguous and negative picture presented of Franken, as you saw in points 1-3 ...
The conservative media will continue to spin this in the way they see fit: Nut-case Franken assaulted an innocent man without warrant. Put Franken in jail! However, as a complete account from people there showed, the conservative media left out crucial details of an affair in which Al helped security guards stop an angry assaulter who attacked others and further presented a danger to the people around him.
Amazing that none of the three sources, including the non NY Post sources mentioned this incident in this way. I think if there were a legitimate danger to a presidential candidate that would have been well covered by pretty much any and all news sources.
Nick
hmmm... maybe they don't have an axe to grind with Franken.
http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...?article=32449
Al Franken rousts
heckler from Dean rally
Union Leader Staff
AL FRANKENMANCHESTER ? Liberal activist and comedian Al Franken helped eject a boisterous heckler from a crowded Howard Dean rally at the Palace Theatre Monday, the theater?s manager said yesterday.
The heckler began yelling from the rear of the theater while the Democratic Presidential hopeful was taking questions from the audience, theater manager Peter Ramsey said.
Two members of Dean?s security team immediately moved in on the man, who shoved and elbowed them, Ramsey said.
?He was screaming. He was out of control,? Ramsey said.
Ramsey said he went over to help calm the situation and also got elbowed and pushed.
?All of a sudden, I looked to my right, and Al Franken was grabbing onto this man?s back,? Ramsey said.
?He (Franken) gave him a hefty Patriots block. He should be a Patriot,? Ramsey said.
?I never met Al Franken before. He is now my new hero,? Ramsey said of the former ?Saturday Night Live? writer.
Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.
When a second heckler ? apparently working in tandem with the first ? emerged from the audience, Dean security men and Franken went over to deal with him while the first protester headed to the balcony, Ramsey said.
While Ramsey pursued the first man to the balcony, he said, he saw Franken and three other men escort the second heckler out the stage door.
Once in the balcony, Ramsey encountered a more disturbing sight.
The protester had clambered over two or three people and had perched himself on the balcony railing.
?I thought he was going to jump. He was screaming at Dean. I was scared for a minute that he was going to jump on the stage and attack Dean,? Ramsey said.
One New Hampshire voter sitting in the balcony said the heckler ?kind of barreled through like a Patriots fullback.?
?The way he moved, I thought he was going to jump or something,? Wendy Branch of Northwood said. ?Even if he didn?t intend to jump, he was setting himself up for a fall. It was a little alarming.?
Ramsey said the heckler left quietly after Ramsey threatened to call the police. But Ramsey figured the more likely reason the protester left was that few television cameras were set up in the balcony.
Ramsey said Dean?s staff told him the protesters were supporters of fringe Presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche.
Franken told the New York Post he body-slammed the demonstrator to the ground.
?I got down low and took his legs out,? Franken told the newspaper.
Franken said he is not backing Dean, but merely wanted to protect free-speech rights.
?I would have done it if he was a Dean supporter at a Kerry rally,? he told the Post.
Dateline . . . Manchester
EXETER ? Police Chief Richard Kane spent much of yesterday telling people other than news reporters to get their facts straight.
A dateline on a New York Post story apparently left many readers with the mistaken impression that humorist and political commentator Al Franken?s sacking of a heckler at a rally for Democratic Presidential candidate Howard Dean on Monday had occurred in Exeter, when in fact it happened in Manchester.
That got phones ringing and e-mail alerts dinging at the Exeter Police Department, where Kane, who in midafternoon had just gotten off the phone with someone from Seattle, said he had heard from about 20 people about the incident since around 10 a.m.
?Now I?m to the point of not answering,? said Kane, adding he didn?t have the ability to create an automated message to handle such calls, but thought it better to respond in person anyway.
He said he was referring callers to the Post. He said he?d tried without success to speak with someone at the New York tabloid, but presumed the reporter, Vincent Morris, had sent the story from Exeter and that?s why it carried the town?s dateline.
In fact, that is exactly what happened, according to Gregg Birnbaum, the New York-based political editor for the Post. He said Morris had been traveling with the Dean campaign to several stops that day and while the original story did contain a reference to the Palace Theatre in Manchester as the location of the dustup, it was edited out of the final piece. ?The general policy is where the story is written,? Birnbaum said last night.
Originally posted by Blue Shift
Reminds me of the ubergeniuses in kindergarden who would cut and paste their ubergenius kaleidoscopic collage while their tongue is hanging out.
Well, no doubt qualifying as an ubergenius at "special" kindergarden was a different kind of achievement.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Ramsey said a news photographer later told him Franken reacted to being elbowed by the protester, who knocked his glasses off.
Some of you should feel like ****ing morons. Stupid, childish, immature morons. If you don't, you should figure out HOW to feel like stupid, childish, immature ****ing morons.
Originally posted by bunge
Some of you should feel like ****ing morons. Stupid, childish, immature morons. If you don't, you should figure out HOW to feel like stupid, childish, immature ****ing morons.
Get a grip on yourself. The NY Post had a direct quote from Franken saying he had taken the guy out low. The other spin stories had Franken just escorting the guy out of the room.
Don't you think Franken would certainly mention if he had been intentionally misquoted?
Notice how not a single one of the spin stories actually quotes Franken? I mean how easy would it be to simply call up Al Franken and get some quotes from him on what happened?
Instead they use a surrogate of the theater manager proclaiming their whole side of the story and exaggerating every detail.
This is a well known tactic, send out the surrogate because if Franken had to tell the story, he would have to lie to spin it the way the theater manager does. The theater manager can say whatever he wants and wasn't involved in the actual incident. Thus he can quote his "perceptions" of how violent the heckler was or harmful he might have been to Dean, the audience, etc. without being called on it since he is just sharing his feelings.
The point that Franken tackled a heckler, not some threat to Dean or anyone else still remains true. One theater manager doesn't change the facts of that in my mind. Likewise the lack of Franken actually speaking and addressing it head on tells me exactly what happened and who is being protected.
Nick
There's a short post.
And as relevant as anything Blue Shitf has to say.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Blah Blah Blah.
There's a short post.
And as relevant as anything Blue Shitf has to say.
Blue appears to have had his account revoked.
Perhaps you should join him.
Nick
Mad that I posted the Union Leader article?
Unless you were there... it's all heresay.
You choose one interpretation.
I chose another.
Yours sounds more like a SNL sketch.
Mine like reality.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
You would like that wouldn't you.
Mad that I posted the Union Leader article?
Unless you were there... it's all heresay.
You choose one interpretation.
I chose another.
Yours sounds more like a SNL sketch.
Mine like reality.
Yes, well my "SNL skit" about Franken has the actual words of Franken saying what he did. This is known as a primary source.
Your articles have secondary sources and somehow you consider them more valid.
It is obvious Franken could simply speak up and say what happened and what he did. The guy isn't exactly known for keeping quiet. It is obvious he did more or else he would say more.
His silence speaks a thousand words.
Nick