Would you apply the same sort of mockery for the hypocrisy of those who claim that abortion is okay because the children are unwanted and not likely to be well cared for, we already have overpopulation, etc. In otherwords killing is okay when it makes life better, but then complain that you shouldn't touch a hair on the head of people who have usually committed multiple murder/rapes/molestations/etc.
The reasoning seems VERY consistant to me to be pro-choice and pro-death penalty. Not the opposite.
Nick
I don't like the idea of totally divorcing women from the idea of abortion- which your comments certainly just did. That seems to be the main rhetorical thrust of the pro-life movement- where abortion exists in some vacuum where real women are not involved- or at best, relegated to make way for mandatory pregnancies and "fetal rights". The pro-choice movement can win back the debate if we focus on women. The opposition practically ignores them.
Well, it looks like I am the first one to vote Pro-Choice Republican. Although I am not sure if I am Republican anymore or not. Since Bush took office I have been quickly leaning towards Independent. It looks like I will be voting Independent again (in this election) since I will not vote for an extremist like Bush or a New Englander like Kerry (I lived in Ma., I don't want to see him running our country).
I don't like the idea of totally divorcing women from the idea of abortion- which your comments certainly just did. That seems to be the main rhetorical thrust of the pro-life movement- where abortion exists in some vacuum where real women are not involved- or at best, relegated to make way for mandatory pregnancies and "fetal rights". The pro-choice movement can win back the debate if we focus on women. The opposition practically ignores them.
First mine was a response to another comment. Consider that in the context. Secondly I wasn't advocating a pro-life position. Rather I said that the position of pro-choice is that it is okay to take life when it maintains or improves the quality of life for those already here. In that context the death penalty certainly follows the same line of reasoning. Yet many pro-choice people seem to be against the death penalty. That reasoning does not divorce the woman from the pro-choice argument. When we say it is okay to improve the quality of life for someone, who's life is it improving? The woman getting the abortion of course.
Would you apply the same sort of mockery for the hypocrisy of those who claim that abortion is okay because the children are unwanted and not likely to be well cared for, we already have overpopulation, etc. In otherwords killing is okay when it makes life better, but then complain that you shouldn't touch a hair on the head of people who have usually committed multiple murder/rapes/molestations/etc.
The reasoning seems VERY consistant to me to be pro-choice and pro-death penalty. Not the opposite.
Nick
Did I ever say any of those things?
I've never met a person with those opinions all my life.
Personally I'm for free choice before a certain stage. When that is, I'm really not qualified to say, but I guess thegelding could help us out. It's really about defining when you can call it a life.
I really don't think anyone actually takes an abortion lightly. And the proper way to reduce abortions would be sexual education, free distribution of prevention (correct english term?) and fight against poverty in general.
But then you agree that being anti-abortionist and pro-death penalty is inconsistent?
I can understand the reasoning behind pro-life, pro-death penalty because they discuss innocence versus guilty. Whether or not people agree with the reasoning it is at least a variable that is understandable in that it could change someone's views regarding the taking of life.
What I cannot understand at all, and what is completely inconsistant to me though is pro-choice/anti-death penalty. That to me just seems very odd.
I can understand the reasoning behind pro-life, pro-death penalty because they discuss innocence versus guilty. Whether or not people agree with the reasoning it is at least a variable that is understandable in that it could change someone's views regarding the taking of life.
What I cannot understand at all, and what is completely inconsistant to me though is pro-choice/anti-death penalty. That to me just seems very odd.
I suggest you just state your point instead of attempting a serious of leading questions. Makes the posting more relevent and then you don't have to keep posting when I don't give you the answer you want or don't want.
I can understand the reasoning behind pro-life, pro-death penalty because they discuss innocence versus guilty. Whether or not people agree with the reasoning it is at least a variable that is understandable in that it could change someone's views regarding the taking of life.
What I cannot understand at all, and what is completely inconsistant to me though is pro-choice/anti-death penalty. That to me just seems very odd.
Nick
i will try to answer that as i am probably one of the people you are talking about (pro choice, pro child, pro family, anti-death penalty)...i also do ultrasounds on pregnant women at least once a week and love doing that dearly...it is truely a positive aspect of medicene (people usually there because they want to be, i am usually giving good news...though i often give bad news because i am referred the worst cases...) and i have a great time with the families, joking with the parents about who has the big nose and gave it to this child, etc etc...
and i like the positive aspects of medicene because i am so often surrounded by the not so positive parts (children with cancer, children with heart disease, parents losing pregnancy after pregnancy to miscarriage....i spent a bad night last night as my sister in law, the sweetest, kindest person i have ever met, was have contractions at 20 weeks pregnant (and she has had two miscarriages already)...if we couldn't stop her contractions the fetus would 100 percent die within moments of delivery...luckily they have stopped, but we wait on pins and needles....
side story (of course all my posts are basically side story after side story...sigh, i am turning into grandpa simpson)...i remember the first time i took my eldest daughter to a pro choice rally in washington dc...she was 10 months old and road on my shoulders the whole time, walking along with 500,000 other people...my grandmother heard that we went and she was very confused...she asked, "g, how can you be pro choice? you have a child." she actually thought that if you were pro choice that you couldn't have children...funny, and a little sad..."yes, grandmama, i am pro choice so i believe all pregnancies should be terminated"...sigh
back on track, kinda....
i actually don't understand the pro-life, pro death penalty...if you believe in god, then god will punish them, not man...
as for pro choice and anti-death penalty i will try to explain at least my thoughts (and believe you me, sometimes it is hard to be anti-death penalty because there are some sick ****ers out there...but this it why i am against the death penalty in all cases)...
(read posts above as to why i am pro choice...respect, love, support of a woman to choose...i will stand by all woman with whatever choice, to keep a pregnancy, to terminate a pregnancy, to give a child to adoption...her body, her soul, her choice...surrounded by love before, during, after.....)
anti-death...i believe that a person can make mistakes, that a person can act out of hatred, insanity, revenge, etc...but that society has to be held to a higher standard...society can not act out of hatred, out of insanity, out of revenge, society should not make mistakes (at least mistakes that take a life forever)...so a person can do horrible things, but society should not...hense, a person can kill, society should not also kill...
now revenge is fine...i am only a so-so pasifict...i will kill to protect my children, i will kill to protect my wife, i would fight and kill and die to protect my country if it was directly attacked on american soil...i might not kill to protect my own life...not sure if the survivial instinct would kick in, but i would have a very hard time living my life knowing i had killed, so it would have to be a very special reason, and my life might not be special enough in my head...depends on the other person and the situation i guess...
but i can tell you that if someone harmed my children or wife, i would work very very very hard to find them before the police...and i would have no problem taking their life, because a person is flawed and revenge is a human emotion and i am a flawed human for sure...but if i didn't find them first, then society takes over and life in prison would be what i would want and expect for that person
I suggest you just state your point instead of attempting a serious of leading questions. Makes the posting more relevent and then you don't have to keep posting when I don't give you the answer you want or don't want.
Just state what you are trying to say.
Nick
I am ofcourse trying to find out where you draw the line. Because everybody does. At some point.
i actually don't understand the pro-life, pro death penalty...if you believe in god, then god will punish them, not man...
Well, it really depends on which God one chooses to follow. Catholics tend to be anti-abortion and anti-death penalty. If they don't, they aren't following the Vatican. Protestants tend to be anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. They like the idea of righteous vengeance.
I am one of the current three Pro-life (with exceptions) Democrats, though I consider myself not affiliated with any party. I'll try to articulate my rational here. I generally hold the view that everyone should have the opportunity to live, no matter their situation. Everyone should have a chance to live. Not wanting a baby is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a baby because of financial concerns is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a have baby due to unpreparedness for parenthood is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a baby because of age is not a reason to have an abortion.
The only reasons to have an abortion are the pregnancy is endangering the health of the mother, it will be known that the baby won't go to term or won't live long after birth, and the usual rape and incest. If a woman is mentally retarded and can't take care of baby, then adoption services or orphanages are a possibility. If a baby is mentally retarded or has some debilitating, but nonfatal disease, then adoption services or orphanages are a possibility.
Same deal with the death penalty. I think the death penalty should only be giving for certain crimes, and the bar must be set much much higher. Crimes of passion, robbery, et al should be below the bar. Serial killing can be above the bar.
Your poll doesn't feature the option I would select. In Virginia, you aren't required to register with a political party when you register to vote (nor when you vote in an election?even Republican or Democratic primaries) I don't belong to any political party at all, which to me is different from saying I am registered as an independent. (That's kind of like saying "We are all individuals!" isn't it? But maybe that's just me.)
Anyway, abortion: I don't like to see it used as a band-aid, as in "Oops, I didn't mean to get pregnant," but I still think it should remain a legal option for any woman to choose at any time.
Well, it really depends on which God one chooses to follow. Catholics tend to be anti-abortion and anti-death penalty. If they don't, they aren't following the Vatican. Protestants tend to be anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. They like the idea of righteous vengeance.
No protestants I know are pro-death penalty. It seems to be an american thing.
Quote:
I generally hold the view that everyone should have the opportunity to live, no matter their situation. Everyone should have a chance to live. Not wanting a baby is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a baby because of financial concerns is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a have baby due to unpreparedness for parenthood is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a baby because of age is not a reason to have an abortion.
In a perfect world, maybe. But with all the poverty in the world, I think it's quite unfair, and VERY unrealistic to deny people in every situations the right to abortion.
You know they will be performed anyway, so are you advocating prosecuting poor people who do? (Because the rich will always get away with it.) And what about the health conditions that come with illegal abortions?
Is this your view nomatter how short the pregnancy has proceeded? What are you feelings stuff like "the day after" pills. Pills that prevent fertalization? What would you think of a metod that works within minutes of a started pregnancy? In short were do you draw the line?
so are woman second class citizens with no say what happens to their bodies once a first class male inseminates her??
education
education
love
love
better birth control (my second lovely child is from failed birth control, was no biggie for us, we were fine and happy to have a second child, but how about people who aren't and use birth control every day and still get pregnant?)
advance technology to the point where we can suck a living 4 wk fetus from a mom and put it in another mom or a tube or a cow and then abortion is be unnecessary
I am pro-choice since goddamn it all it is the woman's freaking body that is carrying the burden of the shitty parasite growing in her...
anyway. i am anti-death penalty because of the irreversible errors intrinsic to any such system. i think life in prison is a worse punishment than death...
I am pro-choice since goddamn it all it is the woman's freaking body that is carrying the burden of the shitty parasite growing in her...
anyway. i am anti-death penalty because of the irreversible errors intrinsic to any such system. i think life in prison is a worse punishment than death...
So the system makes mistakes, and when it does, let's insure the punishment is even worse than death?!?
I am pro-choice since goddamn it all it is the woman's freaking body that is carrying the burden of the shitty parasite growing in her...
anyway. i am anti-death penalty because of the irreversible errors intrinsic to any such system. i think life in prison is a worse punishment than death...
Wow. Children/Fetuses/Embryos = shitty parasites? THAT's a new one.
Comments
Originally posted by trumptman
Would you apply the same sort of mockery for the hypocrisy of those who claim that abortion is okay because the children are unwanted and not likely to be well cared for, we already have overpopulation, etc. In otherwords killing is okay when it makes life better, but then complain that you shouldn't touch a hair on the head of people who have usually committed multiple murder/rapes/molestations/etc.
The reasoning seems VERY consistant to me to be pro-choice and pro-death penalty. Not the opposite.
Nick
I don't like the idea of totally divorcing women from the idea of abortion- which your comments certainly just did. That seems to be the main rhetorical thrust of the pro-life movement- where abortion exists in some vacuum where real women are not involved- or at best, relegated to make way for mandatory pregnancies and "fetal rights". The pro-choice movement can win back the debate if we focus on women. The opposition practically ignores them.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
I don't like the idea of totally divorcing women from the idea of abortion- which your comments certainly just did. That seems to be the main rhetorical thrust of the pro-life movement- where abortion exists in some vacuum where real women are not involved- or at best, relegated to make way for mandatory pregnancies and "fetal rights". The pro-choice movement can win back the debate if we focus on women. The opposition practically ignores them.
First mine was a response to another comment. Consider that in the context. Secondly I wasn't advocating a pro-life position. Rather I said that the position of pro-choice is that it is okay to take life when it maintains or improves the quality of life for those already here. In that context the death penalty certainly follows the same line of reasoning. Yet many pro-choice people seem to be against the death penalty. That reasoning does not divorce the woman from the pro-choice argument. When we say it is okay to improve the quality of life for someone, who's life is it improving? The woman getting the abortion of course.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Would you apply the same sort of mockery for the hypocrisy of those who claim that abortion is okay because the children are unwanted and not likely to be well cared for, we already have overpopulation, etc. In otherwords killing is okay when it makes life better, but then complain that you shouldn't touch a hair on the head of people who have usually committed multiple murder/rapes/molestations/etc.
The reasoning seems VERY consistant to me to be pro-choice and pro-death penalty. Not the opposite.
Nick
Did I ever say any of those things?
I've never met a person with those opinions all my life.
Personally I'm for free choice before a certain stage. When that is, I'm really not qualified to say, but I guess thegelding could help us out. It's really about defining when you can call it a life.
I really don't think anyone actually takes an abortion lightly. And the proper way to reduce abortions would be sexual education, free distribution of prevention (correct english term?) and fight against poverty in general.
Originally posted by trumptman
The reasoning seems VERY consistant to me to be pro-choice and pro-death penalty. Not the opposite.
But then you agree that being anti-abortionist and pro-death penalty is inconsistent?
Originally posted by New
But then you agree that being anti-abortionist and pro-death penalty is inconsistent?
I can understand the reasoning behind pro-life, pro-death penalty because they discuss innocence versus guilty. Whether or not people agree with the reasoning it is at least a variable that is understandable in that it could change someone's views regarding the taking of life.
What I cannot understand at all, and what is completely inconsistant to me though is pro-choice/anti-death penalty. That to me just seems very odd.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
I can understand the reasoning behind pro-life, pro-death penalty because they discuss innocence versus guilty. Whether or not people agree with the reasoning it is at least a variable that is understandable in that it could change someone's views regarding the taking of life.
What I cannot understand at all, and what is completely inconsistant to me though is pro-choice/anti-death penalty. That to me just seems very odd.
Nick
would you advocate rights for sperm?
Originally posted by New
would you advocate rights for sperm?
I suggest you just state your point instead of attempting a serious of leading questions. Makes the posting more relevent and then you don't have to keep posting when I don't give you the answer you want or don't want.
Just state what you are trying to say.
Nick
Originally posted by New
hehe, very true.
I think there should be another poll asking if the same "pro-life" people also endorse the death penalty... - Pro-life my a**.
I always found this sentiment odd---Malvo gets life in a cage, but death is cruel?
Very strange.
Originally posted by trumptman
I can understand the reasoning behind pro-life, pro-death penalty because they discuss innocence versus guilty. Whether or not people agree with the reasoning it is at least a variable that is understandable in that it could change someone's views regarding the taking of life.
What I cannot understand at all, and what is completely inconsistant to me though is pro-choice/anti-death penalty. That to me just seems very odd.
Nick
i will try to answer that as i am probably one of the people you are talking about (pro choice, pro child, pro family, anti-death penalty)...i also do ultrasounds on pregnant women at least once a week and love doing that dearly...it is truely a positive aspect of medicene (people usually there because they want to be, i am usually giving good news...though i often give bad news because i am referred the worst cases...) and i have a great time with the families, joking with the parents about who has the big nose and gave it to this child, etc etc...
and i like the positive aspects of medicene because i am so often surrounded by the not so positive parts (children with cancer, children with heart disease, parents losing pregnancy after pregnancy to miscarriage....i spent a bad night last night as my sister in law, the sweetest, kindest person i have ever met, was have contractions at 20 weeks pregnant (and she has had two miscarriages already)...if we couldn't stop her contractions the fetus would 100 percent die within moments of delivery...luckily they have stopped, but we wait on pins and needles....
side story (of course all my posts are basically side story after side story...sigh, i am turning into grandpa simpson)...i remember the first time i took my eldest daughter to a pro choice rally in washington dc...she was 10 months old and road on my shoulders the whole time, walking along with 500,000 other people...my grandmother heard that we went and she was very confused...she asked, "g, how can you be pro choice? you have a child." she actually thought that if you were pro choice that you couldn't have children...funny, and a little sad..."yes, grandmama, i am pro choice so i believe all pregnancies should be terminated"...sigh
back on track, kinda....
i actually don't understand the pro-life, pro death penalty...if you believe in god, then god will punish them, not man...
as for pro choice and anti-death penalty i will try to explain at least my thoughts (and believe you me, sometimes it is hard to be anti-death penalty because there are some sick ****ers out there...but this it why i am against the death penalty in all cases)...
(read posts above as to why i am pro choice...respect, love, support of a woman to choose...i will stand by all woman with whatever choice, to keep a pregnancy, to terminate a pregnancy, to give a child to adoption...her body, her soul, her choice...surrounded by love before, during, after.....)
anti-death...i believe that a person can make mistakes, that a person can act out of hatred, insanity, revenge, etc...but that society has to be held to a higher standard...society can not act out of hatred, out of insanity, out of revenge, society should not make mistakes (at least mistakes that take a life forever)...so a person can do horrible things, but society should not...hense, a person can kill, society should not also kill...
now revenge is fine...i am only a so-so pasifict...i will kill to protect my children, i will kill to protect my wife, i would fight and kill and die to protect my country if it was directly attacked on american soil...i might not kill to protect my own life...not sure if the survivial instinct would kick in, but i would have a very hard time living my life knowing i had killed, so it would have to be a very special reason, and my life might not be special enough in my head...depends on the other person and the situation i guess...
but i can tell you that if someone harmed my children or wife, i would work very very very hard to find them before the police...and i would have no problem taking their life, because a person is flawed and revenge is a human emotion and i am a flawed human for sure...but if i didn't find them first, then society takes over and life in prison would be what i would want and expect for that person
hope that helps
g
Originally posted by trumptman
I suggest you just state your point instead of attempting a serious of leading questions. Makes the posting more relevent and then you don't have to keep posting when I don't give you the answer you want or don't want.
Just state what you are trying to say.
Nick
I am ofcourse trying to find out where you draw the line. Because everybody does. At some point.
Originally posted by thegelding
i actually don't understand the pro-life, pro death penalty...if you believe in god, then god will punish them, not man...
Well, it really depends on which God one chooses to follow. Catholics tend to be anti-abortion and anti-death penalty. If they don't, they aren't following the Vatican. Protestants tend to be anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. They like the idea of righteous vengeance.
I am one of the current three Pro-life (with exceptions) Democrats, though I consider myself not affiliated with any party. I'll try to articulate my rational here. I generally hold the view that everyone should have the opportunity to live, no matter their situation. Everyone should have a chance to live. Not wanting a baby is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a baby because of financial concerns is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a have baby due to unpreparedness for parenthood is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a baby because of age is not a reason to have an abortion.
The only reasons to have an abortion are the pregnancy is endangering the health of the mother, it will be known that the baby won't go to term or won't live long after birth, and the usual rape and incest. If a woman is mentally retarded and can't take care of baby, then adoption services or orphanages are a possibility. If a baby is mentally retarded or has some debilitating, but nonfatal disease, then adoption services or orphanages are a possibility.
Same deal with the death penalty. I think the death penalty should only be giving for certain crimes, and the bar must be set much much higher. Crimes of passion, robbery, et al should be below the bar. Serial killing can be above the bar.
Originally posted by New
I am ofcourse trying to find out where you draw the line. Because everybody does. At some point.
See THT's post. He is a very good summary of my views.
Nick
Anyway, abortion: I don't like to see it used as a band-aid, as in "Oops, I didn't mean to get pregnant," but I still think it should remain a legal option for any woman to choose at any time.
Originally posted by THT
Well, it really depends on which God one chooses to follow. Catholics tend to be anti-abortion and anti-death penalty. If they don't, they aren't following the Vatican. Protestants tend to be anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. They like the idea of righteous vengeance.
No protestants I know are pro-death penalty. It seems to be an american thing.
I generally hold the view that everyone should have the opportunity to live, no matter their situation. Everyone should have a chance to live. Not wanting a baby is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a baby because of financial concerns is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a have baby due to unpreparedness for parenthood is not a reason to have an abortion. Not wanting a baby because of age is not a reason to have an abortion.
In a perfect world, maybe. But with all the poverty in the world, I think it's quite unfair, and VERY unrealistic to deny people in every situations the right to abortion.
You know they will be performed anyway, so are you advocating prosecuting poor people who do? (Because the rich will always get away with it.) And what about the health conditions that come with illegal abortions?
Is this your view nomatter how short the pregnancy has proceeded? What are you feelings stuff like "the day after" pills. Pills that prevent fertalization? What would you think of a metod that works within minutes of a started pregnancy? In short were do you draw the line?
education
education
love
love
better birth control (my second lovely child is from failed birth control, was no biggie for us, we were fine and happy to have a second child, but how about people who aren't and use birth control every day and still get pregnant?)
advance technology to the point where we can suck a living 4 wk fetus from a mom and put it in another mom or a tube or a cow and then abortion is be unnecessary
g
Originally posted by trumptman
But g... I saw you sharping that knife after that one boy looked at your daughter's piercing... you know that one you DON'T know about yet.
No no no. You got it all wrong. The proper utensil is a dull spoon.
anyway. i am anti-death penalty because of the irreversible errors intrinsic to any such system. i think life in prison is a worse punishment than death...
Originally posted by billybobsky
I am pro-choice since goddamn it all it is the woman's freaking body that is carrying the burden of the shitty parasite growing in her...
anyway. i am anti-death penalty because of the irreversible errors intrinsic to any such system. i think life in prison is a worse punishment than death...
So the system makes mistakes, and when it does, let's insure the punishment is even worse than death?!?
Nice reasoning there.
Nick
Originally posted by billybobsky
I am pro-choice since goddamn it all it is the woman's freaking body that is carrying the burden of the shitty parasite growing in her...
anyway. i am anti-death penalty because of the irreversible errors intrinsic to any such system. i think life in prison is a worse punishment than death...
Wow. Children/Fetuses/Embryos = shitty parasites? THAT's a new one.