Also, has anyone else noticed that there is a new common use for the word "gay" that doesn't imply homosexuality, but is still an insult? A lot of times I see it spelled "ghey". As in "Pierce Brosnan's haircut is ghey." Meaning, they don't think Pierce likes to date men, but rather his hair looks cheezy.
Or "PeeCEEs are ghey": translates to "only a retard would use Windows if they didn't have to".
So I suspect that not every high school or college aged kid who uses that term today is inferring they don't like homosexuals when they call someone or something "ghey". Anyone else notice this?
Hmm... you illustrated an interesting point. Check out the second paragraph of the quote. Perhaps "gay" is the new "retarded"? Retarded, or retard, is a word that just rubs me the wrong way. It's wrong to use this to describe someone or something that you dislike, and in doing so, you would be insulting a group of disadvantaged people. Now, more people see this fact with "retarded" than with "gay", yet the principle of using these words as insults is the same. Think about it...
And really, even if kids are running around calling something "ghey" as opposed to "gay", it still implies the same thing. The use of the word is still perpetuating violence against gays.
What if we were to apply this to, say, religion rather than a mental condition or sexual preference? People would clearly take offense if we started going "dude, that is so catholic", or "that guy is such a jew" when we didn't like something/someone. So why do we still do this with "gay", "fag", "retarded", etc? It is simply something that I strongly disapprove of, and if you agree with me, then I encourage you to say something next time one of your friends spouts out one of those insults.
yeah, personal space here is big. I dunno but people feel distant to me when there's no physical contact whatsoever.
Like others have said, that's a cultural difference. I don't like it when people touch me outside a sport or sexual context, it makes me uncomfortable. The only people I've known who do that have been from other cultures.
That said, there is a lot of sexual insecurity around. Human nature and all that.
One thing about "gay", in primary school we all called each other faggots and poofters meaning homosexual, but "gay" has always been a really general insult. Like calling someone a c**t, it's not because you have anything against, ahem, just because it's an insult.
You would hate my friends, they say stuff like that all the time.
And some people think I'm gay because I'm extremely comfortable with my sexuality. Comfortable enough that I can joke about myself being gay, joke with my (guy) friends about how I'm gay, or how they are "hot". It's all a big joke None of me and my buddies have a personal space problem, we hug, we touch (in non sexual ways) We slap each other's butts...we play water polo, so it's kinda like a way of saying "nice job" or "good game" ect. to them. It's a really normal thing. I have several gay friends, and I try to avoid calling people gay as a derogatory thing.
I guess now that I look at it, I might even be a little too comfortable with my sexuality...I've slept in the same bed as other guys before, I'm a competitive swimmer (speedos), I've gone streaking and crap like that with other guys. But I think it's better that way. I'm straight as an arrow, I'm not turned on at all by guys, but I know the difference between a good looking guy and one who isn't.
Again, I'm not gay, I know I never will be. It really does bother me that people are so uptight about sexuality and crap like that.
America is an uptight, repressed country. And that's coming from me, a conservative.
Stevegongrui is pointing out some obvious cultural differences between America and Europe. I don't think the differences are bad, just "different."
Let's go back to Janet Jackson and the current purge the FCC is doing. Apparently if one sees a teat on tv, one will go straight to hell, or to an eternity of Fox reruns.
There are topless women in every beach I've been to in Europe. You can pick out the Americans, as they're the ones oggling.
Speedos are the normal "manly" swimwear here. (I wonder if they think it's gay not to wear speedos.)
Most of the saunas I've gone to are mixed and nude. This leads to confusion among Europeans going to saunas in the States ("My! You must be German!").
If you ask me, anyone who has to prove his "manliness" has a problem with his manliness.
Showing you can drink 10 beers, be loud and obnoxious, and brag about the size of your pickup truck doesn't make you a man. It just draws attention to your stupidity.
Americans are so dumb and up tight and Europeans are so cool and hip. We should try to be more like them!
If you put it that way, then maybe you're right.
In my post, I wrote "different."
Still, I wish every American would get a passport, travel outside of the country, keep their mouth shut, and look around. I defend America as much as I deride America. There isn't a "perfect" place, just different based on one's personal preferences.
I'm living in my 3rd continent/country. I still prefer America since I've lived there the longest, but you certainly see it in a different light when you're looking from the outside.
These are the same people that analyze behavior in mens' contact sports and dub it "homoerotic,"
. .which is fully true.
'Homoerotic' -does not mean wanting to fvck men but means that there is an erotic element that gets pleasure from the interaction between the same sex.
Team sports are erotic, play in general is an erotic activity. Eros is an expanded idea of sexuality: not the sex act but the energy that underlies sex: it is like Freud's notion of sexuality; so different from what people ordinarily consider 'sex' that in order to understand it they need to completely re-think thier ideas . . . . one reason that many people don't accept Freud's notions.
But, male team sports are erotic in that they are based on play-energy which is in-itself erotic (based on becoming a part of the team and the excuberant expression of physical energy within the confines of a bounded unification and orchestrated tension and release) but it is also homoerotic because of the camraderie and the tensions of repressed 'brotherhood' that that notion implies.
I played football for years and I know of what I speak.
One way to gauge the homoerotic nature is to see how the group bonds over ideas and objectifications of the opposite sex: they tend to define themselves in relation to idealized and distorted images of women and do so aggressively and in a testing manner: meaning that they do so as a form of proof: either you will objectify this woman or you are 'gay' . . .this comes from a need to deny the roots of the collective nature of male team sports, a nature that needs to be denied in the Consciouse bacause of its expression in, in order to be allowed in, the Uncosciouse:
reminds me of a work of art by Barbara Kruger that has a picture of football tacling with the words on top: "we devise elaborate rituals in order to be able to touch one another"
In history, men wrestling was considered a beautiful thing and they did it nude and did not deny its overtly erotic nature, Socrates even speaks of how beautiful they appear and he does so in unabashedly erotic terms.
Sparta had a civilization that was extremely ritualized and devided men and women, everything that they did was a form of contest and play and at the same time they were extremely homosexual: the men even paired up and spent all or their time with their partner and with each other preparing for battle and for ritualized combat and games . . even when they were 'married'.
Also, has anyone else noticed that there is a new common use for the word "gay" that doesn't imply homosexuality, but is still an insult? ...
So I suspect that not every high school or college aged kid who uses that term today is inferring they don't like homosexuals when they call someone or something "ghey". Anyone else notice this?
I've noticed this too, especially over the past 5 years. "Gay" has now almost replaced the word "lame".
Example: "Shuffle board is gay".
Ten years ago it would have been more likely to see: "Shuffle board is lame". Both refer to a category of human for which the speaker considers membership undesirable.
I still remember the day that I realized where the term "Gypped" originated and what it implies...
What if we were to apply this to, say, religion rather than a mental condition or sexual preference? People would clearly take offense if we started going "dude, that is so catholic", or "that guy is such a jew" when we didn't like something/someone.
"If we were...?" If only it were hypothetical!
I don't know if you've heard "Jew" used as a verb, for bargaining or bartering, but there's a guy I know who uses is it ("I jewed him down to $500") and it drives me nuts. Also, if you've ever heard the phrase "heebie jeebies," it's the uncomfortable feeling you're supposed to get when a Hebrew passes by you.
"Bogeyman" is from Bogomil, an Eastern European strain of heretical (read: non-Catholic) Christian, similar to the Cathars of southern France. Like the gypsies, they were supposed to sneak into houses to steal children.
Those are the ones that came to mind, but there are plenty more. Every religion has been undesirable somewhere at some point, and it never takes long for the name to end up in a slur somehow.
Why did you have to write the post I'm about to tear apart? It's all IMHO, OK?
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
The question is WHY do you wear Speedos? Do you swim competitively? My guess is no... To show off your bulge?
Hey, I wear Speedos when I surf and SCUBA, but underneath my trunks and wetsuit. Seeing people walking around in Speedos is frickin' nasty.
Boobies are pretty. That's why girls wear bikini tops.
Penises are ugly. Don't draw attention to yours by wearing a Speedo.
I wear tighty-whities on occasion too, but I don't walk around in them.
Actually, I quite like men in Speedos provided the rest of the err, package, is sufficient to support the look. Put Michelangelo's David in a pair of Speedos and no woman is going to complain. But then I like men who know how to wear a well-tailored suit as well so maybe I'm just old-fashioned.
What I don't like is "boobies". Guys, "boobies" just sounds like you haven't had your hands on enough of them to have the confidence to call them "tits" or "breasts".
And penises aren't inherently ugly. You've just got to catch them in the right light.
Hmm... you illustrated an interesting point. Check out the second paragraph of the quote. Perhaps "gay" is the new "retarded"? Retarded, or retard, is a word that just rubs me the wrong way. It's wrong to use this to describe someone or something that you dislike, and in doing so, you would be insulting a group of disadvantaged people. Now, more people see this fact with "retarded" than with "gay", yet the principle of using these words as insults is the same. Think about it...
Oh I agree. I'm not condoning the use of the phrase "____ is ghey gay", or suggesting that it isn't insulting to gay people. I just sense that some people (who may have no problems with the gay lifestyle) perhaps misuse this word, intending a different implication than the tradional one we're used to. IOW, they're not intending the "I don't like homosexuals, so I call them 'gay'... and I don't like Pierce's haircut, so I also call that 'gay'" meaning of the word.
I guess retarded is a good analogy, and I confess it is a word that I use sometimes, despite my having no disrespect for the mentally challenged. So even though I don't intend the parallel, I am still using the wrong word. Equally annoying I guess are phrases like "bad ass". Which can be construed to mean
A product or thing that has really impressive specs or appearance.
A person who likes to pound on other people.
Someone who needs to wipe more thoroughly before sex (men or women).
Comments
Originally posted by Moogs
Also, has anyone else noticed that there is a new common use for the word "gay" that doesn't imply homosexuality, but is still an insult? A lot of times I see it spelled "ghey". As in "Pierce Brosnan's haircut is ghey." Meaning, they don't think Pierce likes to date men, but rather his hair looks cheezy.
Or "PeeCEEs are ghey": translates to "only a retard would use Windows if they didn't have to".
So I suspect that not every high school or college aged kid who uses that term today is inferring they don't like homosexuals when they call someone or something "ghey". Anyone else notice this?
Hmm... you illustrated an interesting point. Check out the second paragraph of the quote. Perhaps "gay" is the new "retarded"? Retarded, or retard, is a word that just rubs me the wrong way. It's wrong to use this to describe someone or something that you dislike, and in doing so, you would be insulting a group of disadvantaged people. Now, more people see this fact with "retarded" than with "gay", yet the principle of using these words as insults is the same. Think about it...
And really, even if kids are running around calling something "ghey" as opposed to "gay", it still implies the same thing. The use of the word is still perpetuating violence against gays.
What if we were to apply this to, say, religion rather than a mental condition or sexual preference? People would clearly take offense if we started going "dude, that is so catholic", or "that guy is such a jew" when we didn't like something/someone. So why do we still do this with "gay", "fag", "retarded", etc? It is simply something that I strongly disapprove of, and if you agree with me, then I encourage you to say something next time one of your friends spouts out one of those insults.
Originally posted by stevegongrui
yeah, personal space here is big. I dunno but people feel distant to me when there's no physical contact whatsoever.
Like others have said, that's a cultural difference. I don't like it when people touch me outside a sport or sexual context, it makes me uncomfortable. The only people I've known who do that have been from other cultures.
That said, there is a lot of sexual insecurity around. Human nature and all that.
One thing about "gay", in primary school we all called each other faggots and poofters meaning homosexual, but "gay" has always been a really general insult. Like calling someone a c**t, it's not because you have anything against, ahem, just because it's an insult.
Barto
"that guy is such a jew"
You would hate my friends, they say stuff like that all the time.
And some people think I'm gay because I'm extremely comfortable with my sexuality. Comfortable enough that I can joke about myself being gay, joke with my (guy) friends about how I'm gay, or how they are "hot". It's all a big joke None of me and my buddies have a personal space problem, we hug, we touch (in non sexual ways) We slap each other's butts...we play water polo, so it's kinda like a way of saying "nice job" or "good game" ect. to them. It's a really normal thing. I have several gay friends, and I try to avoid calling people gay as a derogatory thing.
I guess now that I look at it, I might even be a little too comfortable with my sexuality...I've slept in the same bed as other guys before, I'm a competitive swimmer (speedos), I've gone streaking and crap like that with other guys. But I think it's better that way. I'm straight as an arrow, I'm not turned on at all by guys, but I know the difference between a good looking guy and one who isn't.
Again, I'm not gay, I know I never will be. It really does bother me that people are so uptight about sexuality and crap like that.
And yes, everyone makes fun of jews. That's why they're there.
Originally posted by soulcrusher
Man, you're gay.
And yes, everyone makes fun of jews. That's why they're there.
That'll piss of a lotta people. Lucky for you, I'm not one of them, it's pretty much impossible to offend me.
But I'll repeat myself, again...I'm not gay
But you're right about the jews
I did it here at a party when I got a bit drunk...
grabbed some asses...
...bad idea. people seriously thought I was gay.
Stevegongrui is pointing out some obvious cultural differences between America and Europe. I don't think the differences are bad, just "different."
Let's go back to Janet Jackson and the current purge the FCC is doing. Apparently if one sees a teat on tv, one will go straight to hell, or to an eternity of Fox reruns.
There are topless women in every beach I've been to in Europe. You can pick out the Americans, as they're the ones oggling.
Speedos are the normal "manly" swimwear here. (I wonder if they think it's gay not to wear speedos.)
Most of the saunas I've gone to are mixed and nude. This leads to confusion among Europeans going to saunas in the States ("My! You must be German!").
If you ask me, anyone who has to prove his "manliness" has a problem with his manliness.
Showing you can drink 10 beers, be loud and obnoxious, and brag about the size of your pickup truck doesn't make you a man. It just draws attention to your stupidity.
Originally posted by Scott
Americans are so dumb and up tight and Europeans are so cool and hip.
Hey now, no need to start getting pissed. This thread is not trying to diss any cultures, simply to clarify some things I've noticed.
Yeah, I've learned not to speak my thoughts on the US all the time with the wrong people as lots of them get very defensive.
Don't worry, not dissing your country. Countries are different.
Originally posted by Scott
Americans are so dumb and up tight and Europeans are so cool and hip.
If you put it that way, then maybe you're right.
In my post, I wrote "different."
Still, I wish every American would get a passport, travel outside of the country, keep their mouth shut, and look around. I defend America as much as I deride America. There isn't a "perfect" place, just different based on one's personal preferences.
I'm living in my 3rd continent/country. I still prefer America since I've lived there the longest, but you certainly see it in a different light when you're looking from the outside.
Originally posted by stevegongrui
Hey now, no need to start getting pissed. This thread is not trying to diss any cultures, simply to clarify some things I've noticed.
Yeah, I've learned not to speak my thoughts on the US all the time with the wrong people as lots of them get very defensive.
Don't worry, not dissing your country. Countries are different.
Well you know nothing says "thouchy feely" like you're average german or brit.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
These are the same people that analyze behavior in mens' contact sports and dub it "homoerotic,"
. .which is fully true.
'Homoerotic' -does not mean wanting to fvck men but means that there is an erotic element that gets pleasure from the interaction between the same sex.
Team sports are erotic, play in general is an erotic activity. Eros is an expanded idea of sexuality: not the sex act but the energy that underlies sex: it is like Freud's notion of sexuality; so different from what people ordinarily consider 'sex' that in order to understand it they need to completely re-think thier ideas . . . . one reason that many people don't accept Freud's notions.
But, male team sports are erotic in that they are based on play-energy which is in-itself erotic (based on becoming a part of the team and the excuberant expression of physical energy within the confines of a bounded unification and orchestrated tension and release) but it is also homoerotic because of the camraderie and the tensions of repressed 'brotherhood' that that notion implies.
I played football for years and I know of what I speak.
One way to gauge the homoerotic nature is to see how the group bonds over ideas and objectifications of the opposite sex: they tend to define themselves in relation to idealized and distorted images of women and do so aggressively and in a testing manner: meaning that they do so as a form of proof: either you will objectify this woman or you are 'gay' . . .this comes from a need to deny the roots of the collective nature of male team sports, a nature that needs to be denied in the Consciouse bacause of its expression in, in order to be allowed in, the Uncosciouse:
reminds me of a work of art by Barbara Kruger that has a picture of football tacling with the words on top: "we devise elaborate rituals in order to be able to touch one another"
In history, men wrestling was considered a beautiful thing and they did it nude and did not deny its overtly erotic nature, Socrates even speaks of how beautiful they appear and he does so in unabashedly erotic terms.
Sparta had a civilization that was extremely ritualized and devided men and women, everything that they did was a form of contest and play and at the same time they were extremely homosexual: the men even paired up and spent all or their time with their partner and with each other preparing for battle and for ritualized combat and games . . even when they were 'married'.
Originally posted by Scott
Well you know nothing says "thouchy feely" like you're average german or brit.
Well, you know, nothing says, "can't spell or use correct grammar." like your average American.
Originally posted by Moogs
Also, has anyone else noticed that there is a new common use for the word "gay" that doesn't imply homosexuality, but is still an insult? ...
So I suspect that not every high school or college aged kid who uses that term today is inferring they don't like homosexuals when they call someone or something "ghey". Anyone else notice this?
I've noticed this too, especially over the past 5 years. "Gay" has now almost replaced the word "lame".
Example: "Shuffle board is gay".
Ten years ago it would have been more likely to see: "Shuffle board is lame". Both refer to a category of human for which the speaker considers membership undesirable.
I still remember the day that I realized where the term "Gypped" originated and what it implies...
Hey, like i'd ever met an outted Gypsy.
Originally posted by audiopollution
Well, you know, nothing says, "can't spell or use correct grammar." like your average American.
And nothing says simple typos like some simple typos. Also nothing says American like your average forum spell nazi.
Originally posted by stevegongrui
Interesting...I must really come off as gay then:
GAY - swimming in speedos...
The question is WHY do you wear Speedos? Do you swim competitively? My guess is no... To show off your bulge?
Hey, I wear Speedos when I surf and SCUBA, but underneath my trunks and wetsuit. Seeing people walking around in Speedos is frickin' nasty.
Boobies are pretty. That's why girls wear bikini tops.
Penises are ugly. Don't draw attention to yours by wearing a Speedo.
I wear tighty-whities on occasion too, but I don't walk around in them.
Originally posted by Nebulous
What if we were to apply this to, say, religion rather than a mental condition or sexual preference? People would clearly take offense if we started going "dude, that is so catholic", or "that guy is such a jew" when we didn't like something/someone.
"If we were...?" If only it were hypothetical!
I don't know if you've heard "Jew" used as a verb, for bargaining or bartering, but there's a guy I know who uses is it ("I jewed him down to $500") and it drives me nuts. Also, if you've ever heard the phrase "heebie jeebies," it's the uncomfortable feeling you're supposed to get when a Hebrew passes by you.
"Bogeyman" is from Bogomil, an Eastern European strain of heretical (read: non-Catholic) Christian, similar to the Cathars of southern France. Like the gypsies, they were supposed to sneak into houses to steal children.
Those are the ones that came to mind, but there are plenty more. Every religion has been undesirable somewhere at some point, and it never takes long for the name to end up in a slur somehow.
Originally posted by Eugene
The question is WHY do you wear Speedos? Do you swim competitively? My guess is no... To show off your bulge?
Hey, I wear Speedos when I surf and SCUBA, but underneath my trunks and wetsuit. Seeing people walking around in Speedos is frickin' nasty.
Boobies are pretty. That's why girls wear bikini tops.
Penises are ugly. Don't draw attention to yours by wearing a Speedo.
I wear tighty-whities on occasion too, but I don't walk around in them.
Actually, I quite like men in Speedos provided the rest of the err, package, is sufficient to support the look. Put Michelangelo's David in a pair of Speedos and no woman is going to complain. But then I like men who know how to wear a well-tailored suit as well so maybe I'm just old-fashioned.
What I don't like is "boobies". Guys, "boobies" just sounds like you haven't had your hands on enough of them to have the confidence to call them "tits" or "breasts".
And penises aren't inherently ugly. You've just got to catch them in the right light.
Originally posted by Nebulous
Hmm... you illustrated an interesting point. Check out the second paragraph of the quote. Perhaps "gay" is the new "retarded"? Retarded, or retard, is a word that just rubs me the wrong way. It's wrong to use this to describe someone or something that you dislike, and in doing so, you would be insulting a group of disadvantaged people. Now, more people see this fact with "retarded" than with "gay", yet the principle of using these words as insults is the same. Think about it...
Oh I agree. I'm not condoning the use of the phrase "____ is ghey gay", or suggesting that it isn't insulting to gay people. I just sense that some people (who may have no problems with the gay lifestyle) perhaps misuse this word, intending a different implication than the tradional one we're used to. IOW, they're not intending the "I don't like homosexuals, so I call them 'gay'... and I don't like Pierce's haircut, so I also call that 'gay'" meaning of the word.
I guess retarded is a good analogy, and I confess it is a word that I use sometimes, despite my having no disrespect for the mentally challenged. So even though I don't intend the parallel, I am still using the wrong word. Equally annoying I guess are phrases like "bad ass". Which can be construed to mean
A product or thing that has really impressive specs or appearance.
A person who likes to pound on other people.
Someone who needs to wipe more thoroughly before sex (men or women).