So if the question is "Why didn't Kerry talk about totally absurd question X?" and the answer is that "There were more relevant issues to discuss," that's a dodge?
Well, then! Why didn't Bush talk about Haliburton outsourcing jobs at the last press conference?
So if the question is "Why didn't Kerry talk about totally absurd question X?" and the answer is that "There were more relevant issues to discuss," that's a dodge?
Well, then! Why didn't Bush talk about Haliburton outsourcing jobs at the last press conference?
Because that would be silly, since he has no control over that entity. Why didn't he talk about the outsourcing by nabisco? Same reason, me thinks.
And there you have it. So why are you saying I dodged the question, again?
I think he was pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of Kerry's lifestyle and what he is trying to sell. You then dodged that assertion and pointed out IT and factory jobs going overseas, as if that negated the issue. I did some repair work at the heinz factory when I worked in Pittsburgh and those ARE factory jobs that are going elsewhere from heinz.
Kerry could effect way more influence over heinz than GWB and Haliburton. Bush is not sleeping with Cheney, last I heard.
I think he was pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of Kerry's lifestyle and what he is trying to sell.
What the hell are you talking about?!?! his 'lifestyle'?!?!
. . . your like a tick that just refuses to stop even though its head has been pulled clean off . . .
What are these fantasies?
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I worked in Pittsburgh and those ARE factory jobs that are going elsewhere from heinz.
Kerry could effect way more influence over heinz than GWB and Haliburton. Bush is not sleeping with Cheney, last I heard.
Heinz isn't leaving Pittsburgh . . . I just was in Pittsburgh, I lived in Pittsburgh and it isn't leaving . . . it is closing one part of one smaller plant and relocating . . .probably NOT out of state, perhaps not even out of the region .. . at least that was the buzz.
It is you people who are using 'talking points' . . . its as if you get together for a tupperware party and go over all the attack strategies, I can just see this Pittsburgh thing coming out after some rally to win over the swing state . . . I doubt you have ever even been in Pittsburgh! Tell me, what plant did you visit? what part of the city was it in? Can you describe the city for me?
What the hell are you talking about?!?! his 'lifestyle'?!?!
. . . your like a tick that just refuses to stop even though its head has been pulled clean off . . .
What are these fantasies?
Heinz isn't leaving Pittsburgh . . . I just was in Pittsburgh, I lived in Pittsburgh and it isn't leaving . . . it is closing one part of one smaller plant and relocating . . .probably NOT out of state, perhaps not even out of the region .. . at least that was the buzz.
It is you people who are using 'talking points' . . . its as if you get together for a tupperware party and go over all the attack strategies, I can just see this Pittsburgh thing coming out after some rally to win over the swing state . . . I doubt you have ever even been in Pittsburgh! Tell me, what plant did you visit? what part of the city was it in? Can you describe the city for me?
I lived on Alluvian Street and ate at Primanti Brothers all of the time. I worked at Kasnick Welding as a Machinist, they do many, if not most repairs for the Pittsburgh heinz factory.
Come on why do you do this to yourself?
Oh yeah, my wife was born and raised right across the the Monongahela bridge.
What the hell are you talking about?!?! his 'lifestyle'?!?!
. . . your like a tick that just refuses to stop even though its head has been pulled clean off . . .
What are these fantasies?
Heinz isn't leaving Pittsburgh . . . I just was in Pittsburgh, I lived in Pittsburgh and it isn't leaving . . . it is closing one part of one smaller plant and relocating . . .probably NOT out of state, perhaps not even out of the region .. . at least that was the buzz.
It is you people who are using 'talking points' . . . its as if you get together for a tupperware party and go over all the attack strategies, I can just see this Pittsburgh thing coming out after some rally to win over the swing state . . . I doubt you have ever even been in Pittsburgh! Tell me, what plant did you visit? what part of the city was it in? Can you describe the city for me?
Oh yeah, I was not talking about the Pittsburgh plant, but the other jobs they have located overseas, those are factory jobs.
[B]I think he was pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of Kerry's lifestyle and what he is trying to sell.
Here's what he said:
Quote:
Well, he has no plans. He wants to delegate our foreign policy to the UN so we can resume good buddy status with France and Germany. He is going to raise our taxes and kill what is a robust economic recovery. And why is he not talking about how many jobs Heinz has outsourced - the source of wealth that allows him and his wife to live in the lap of luxury of private jets, mansions across the nation and a fleet of fuel guzzling SUVs? He does not want to talk about that. I can only imagine why...
This is a standard-issue Rush Limbaugh transcription. I'll translate:
No plans. Undermine US sovereignty. France and Germany suck. Raise taxes = destroy economy. ABSURD QUESTION ABOUT WHY HE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT SOMETHING A) ABSURD AND ABSURD. Make fun of Kerry because he's rich, and thus appeal to the "regular guy" Bush ethos, which is patently absurd.
You, yourself, pointed out that asking such questions is silly. And while you came close to the correct answer, you didn't quite drive it home. Here it is: Kerry is talking about markets and their tendencies, not singling out individual companies for ridicule. And the reason he's not going to talk about Heinz is that it would be stupid. It would be equally stupid for Bush to talk about Haliburton. It's the elephant in the room that we all pretend isn't there. To ask that Kerry point it out while claiming that Bush need not is hypocritical and idiotic.
Here is where you should begin to get a clue about this: I don't like Kerry. I don't like Bush. We have before us a choice between two yankee, wealthy, sons of wealthy, powerful, New England men who were educated in New England and whose family money is deeply embedded in politics. For the same reasons, I didn't like Dean. I do not like the choices available to me in this oligarchy, and so I go for the best of all possible tyrants.
Add to this I'm not even sure what "speech" we're talking about. 7E7 is really bad about supplying links to back up his (?) claims, so at the moment I can only assume that we're debating one of his hypotheticals. Another Limbaugh tactic, of course.
Were Kerry trying to "sell" himself as a "regular guy, a Warshington outsider," then I'd be pissed. But he's not. I don't know how 7E7's argument does anything to counter what he's trying to "sell."
Quote:
You then dodged that assertion and pointed out IT and factory jobs going overseas, as if that negated the issue.
And, by your own argument (see above), it does negate the issue, since the question is stupid.
Quote:
I did some repair work at the heinz factory when I worked in Pittsburgh and those ARE factory jobs that are going elsewhere from heinz.
Well all righty then! I guess that seals the deal! Personal testimony! From a nameless, faceless, random person on an internet discussion forum. Not that I think you're lying (I actually don't), but the fact remains that in a forum debate like this, personal testimony counts for squat.
But more to the point. While the entire tech support industry in the US is being outsourced, I'm sure that the voters will be deeply concerned that you've directed our attention to how one company's jobs are being outsourced (no doubt to Mexico as part of NAFTA).
Quote:
Kerry could effect way more influence over heinz than GWB and Haliburton.
That's patently absurd. Let me get this straight: Kerry married into the Heinz family and thus can sway the entire company's business dealings.
On the other hand, sweet, innocent little Dick Cheney used to RUN Haliburton. He is now one of the hand-selected (actually, personally selected, but that's another issue) NEXT IN LINE FOR THE PRESIDENCY. He held a cabinet position under the current president's father. Their dealings go back DECADES. Even now, Cheney's in the supreme court fighting to keep his meetings with Haliburton secret. Haliburton was the recipient of billions in Iraqi reconstruction projects. And yet Kerry can influence Heinz more than Bush can his second in command's former company? Give me some of whatever you're smoking!
This is a standard-issue Rush Limbaugh transcription.
It is?
Because like I have stated, I rarely listen to him (I haven't for over two weaks, and then three month before that) so your characterization of me is wrong.
You probably could have made your argument without even prefacing it with that statement, but like may here you could not help yourself, could you?
First my honesty is questioned and I am told I probably didn't live where I lived and then to add the insult I am reported to be a right winger like Rush.
Because like I have stated, I rarely listen to him (I haven't for over two weaks, and then three month before that) so your characterization of me is wrong.
You probably could have made your argument without even prefacing it with that statement, but like may here you could not help yourself, could you?
First my honesty is questioned and I am told I probably didn't live where I lived and then to add the insult I am reported to be a right winger like Rush.
Nice try, but you are both way off.
My god. Either you didn't even read what I wrote or you can't tell the difference between what you wrote and what 7E7 wrote. I clearly indicated that the quote was from 7E7. I then translated HIS words and called them a Rush Limbaugh transcript. NOWHERE IN MY POST DID I CLAIM THAT THE QUOTE CAME FROM YOU. Each post has an attribution. I suggest that you pay attention to it.
Even more, I explicitly stated that I actually believed that you worked in PA at the Heinz factory.
Even even more, I don't believe I compared you anywhere to Rush.
My god. Either you didn't even read what I wrote or you can't tell the difference between what you wrote and what 7E7 wrote. I clearly indicated that the quote was from 7E7. I then translated HIS words and called them a Rush Limbaugh transcript. NOWHERE IN MY POST DID I CLAIM THAT THE QUOTE CAME FROM YOU. Each post has an attribution. I suggest that you pay attention to it.
Even more, I explicitly stated that I actually believed that you worked in PA at the Heinz factory.
Even even more, I don't believe I compared you anywhere to Rush.
I read it and know exactly where you were going, don't play coy.
Your tactic are very blatant.
I mean that is cool, but it does not become you or anyone else that uses them.
I read it and know exactly where you were going, don't play coy.
Your tactic are very blatant.
I mean that is cool, but it does not become you or anyone else that uses them.
Look. I said what I said. It's right up there. If you want to get bent out of shape for stuff that you just make up, that's your deal. But don't say I did things that I didn't.
Going into combat and fulfilling your duty while not going into combat are not the same things. Has even one Republican president even ben in combat?
Is there really anyone anywhere on this planet who can say the US effort in Vietnam wasn't misgided. That is not even an issue. 60,000 lost and what was accomplished? Name one good thing that came out of the war. And as for all the reasons for going into the war, the fall of indo-china to communism through the domino effect, undo Chineese influence in indo-china, not one of them happened. All a bunch of fear mongering and hot air.
Most of the intelligence used by the anti-war movement in the US came from returning soldiers. They weren't traitors. They just wanted to tell their story, to let the American people know how it really was, and the anti-war protesters were pretty much the only people who would listen to them. Funny how many now call them traitors. But, the generals and military leaders who lied through their teath to the American people, they were all upstanding Americans, right? Two of my friends died in Vietnam. One of them told me he had personally witnessed a US pilot drop napalm on a friendly village, after they couldn't find their target, then turn and go back to watch the people running around while being burned by napalm. He saw this from the second seat of a fighter bomber. All of us who were alive at the time, who cared to know, know there were atrocities in Vietnam. It's not even worth talking about. Those who dispute that, they just didn't want to know.
Look. I said what I said. It's right up there. If you want to get bent out of shape for stuff that you just make up, that's your deal. But don't say I did things that I didn't.
Hey I am not upset in any way. I thought we were just having a discussion.
I just refuse to fall for/into your and generalizations, no biggie. Be happy.
Going into combat and fulfilling your duty while not going into combat are not the same things. Has even one Republican president even ben in combat?
Is there really anyone anywhere on this planet who can say the US effort in Vietnam wasn't misgided. That is not even an issue. 60,000 lost and what was accomplished? Name one good thing that came out of the war. And as for all the reasons for going into the war, the fall of indo-china to communism through the domino effect, undo Chineese influence in indo-china, not one of them happened. All a bunch of fear mongering and hot air.
Most of the intelligence used by the anti-war movement in the US came from returning soldiers. They weren't traitors. They just wanted to tell their story, to let the American people know how it really was, and the anti-war protesters were pretty much the only people who would listen to them. Funny how many now call them traitors. But, the generals and military leaders who lied through their teath to the American people, they were all upstanding Americans, right? Two of my friends died in Vietnam. One of them told me he had personally witnessed a US pilot drop napalm on a friendly village, after they couldn't find their target, then turn and go back to watch the people running around while being burned by napalm. He saw this from the second seat of a fighter bomber. All of us who were alive at the time, who cared to know, know there were atrocities in Vietnam. It's not even worth talking about. Those who dispute that, they just didn't want to know.
The problem is that a big part of the views of that war were formed as a result of the lies perpetrated by Kerry himself. These views based on lies effected a whole generation and arguably foreign policy.
To say that it does not matter now is extremely naive in my opinion. To refuse to see the wet finger in the air method of choosing right and wrong on the part of a future leader of the free world is past unwise.
This thread was started after I watched Senator Kerry being interviewed by Tim Russert. His apparent dismissal of his youthful comments was an eyebrow-raiser. You had to see the body language and hear the inflection of his voice to get the full effect.
I don't think of John Kerry The Politician as noble. I believe that he is a calculating opportunist, no different from the majority of his colleagues. The true Dean supporters (you know who you are) had (and have) no passion for Kerry and If there were no George Bush in office you can bet that they'd not be in bed with the man.
Go way back to my previous posts to see my read on Kerry's comments in context with his life. Mostly, I understand how he might feel differently now. While I can respect that, I don't have to consider him the best choice for President.
How screwed up is the Democratic Party that the best candidate that they can put forward is someone whose best selling point is that he "isn't" the other candidate? To say that "it's time for responsible decision making" by the Democratic Party is silly. The party will reform from within or be replaced from without by something new. I think that Harald touched upon this in another thread.
Our old faithful political parties are undergoing a polarity shift as we rage in these forums.
More than anything, please try to return to the original topic of the thread or start a new one.
Perhaps a thread about how Senator Kerry has backed off his firm stance of not attacking his opponent's military record? Was he forced into this battle-of-honor? I actually don't think that he was, but I could be wrong. Either way, he's just proven that his promises aren't cast in stone (assuming that it can be confirmed that he originally made such a vow).
The problem is that a big part of the views of that war were formed as a result of the lies perpetrated by Kerry himself. These views based on lies effected a whole generation and arguably foreign policy.
To say that it does not matter now is extremely naive in my opinion. To refuse to see the wet finger in the air method of choosing right and wrong on the part of a future leader of the free world is past unwise.
Sorry Naples, but that is just utter nonsense.
It's nonsense that somehow "lies" managed to befuddle an entire generation. It's nonsense that these "lies" were perpetrated by Kerry (or as the wording of your post would have it, largely engineered by Kerry).
The lie is that Vietnam was a good war brought down by hippies and naysayers. I'm astonished to hear anyone under the age of 60 trotting out this tired old stuff. It was crap when Agnew was selling it, it's crap now.
Comments
Because the more pressing issue is that factory and IT jobs have been outsourced?
Nice dodge of the issue.
Originally posted by msantti
Nice dodge of the issue.
I realize the shift between the Bushworld and the real world can be dramatic, but we call what I did "answering," not "dodging."
Originally posted by midwinter
I realize the shift between the Bushworld and the real world can be dramatic, but we call what I did "answering," not "dodging."
No, I think that could qualify as a dodge.
Originally posted by NaplesX
No, I think that could qualify as a dodge.
So if the question is "Why didn't Kerry talk about totally absurd question X?" and the answer is that "There were more relevant issues to discuss," that's a dodge?
Well, then! Why didn't Bush talk about Haliburton outsourcing jobs at the last press conference?
Originally posted by midwinter
So if the question is "Why didn't Kerry talk about totally absurd question X?" and the answer is that "There were more relevant issues to discuss," that's a dodge?
Well, then! Why didn't Bush talk about Haliburton outsourcing jobs at the last press conference?
Because that would be silly, since he has no control over that entity. Why didn't he talk about the outsourcing by nabisco? Same reason, me thinks.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Because that would be silly, since he has no control over that entity. Why didn't he talk about the outsourcing by nabisco? Same reason, me thinks.
And there you have it. So why are you saying I dodged the question, again?
Originally posted by midwinter
And there you have it. So why are you saying I dodged the question, again?
I think he was pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of Kerry's lifestyle and what he is trying to sell. You then dodged that assertion and pointed out IT and factory jobs going overseas, as if that negated the issue. I did some repair work at the heinz factory when I worked in Pittsburgh and those ARE factory jobs that are going elsewhere from heinz.
Kerry could effect way more influence over heinz than GWB and Haliburton. Bush is not sleeping with Cheney, last I heard.
Originally posted by NaplesX
I think he was pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of Kerry's lifestyle and what he is trying to sell.
What the hell are you talking about?!?! his 'lifestyle'?!?!
. . . your like a tick that just refuses to stop even though its head has been pulled clean off . . .
What are these fantasies?
Originally posted by NaplesX
I worked in Pittsburgh and those ARE factory jobs that are going elsewhere from heinz.
Kerry could effect way more influence over heinz than GWB and Haliburton. Bush is not sleeping with Cheney, last I heard.
Heinz isn't leaving Pittsburgh . . . I just was in Pittsburgh, I lived in Pittsburgh and it isn't leaving . . . it is closing one part of one smaller plant and relocating . . .probably NOT out of state, perhaps not even out of the region .. . at least that was the buzz.
It is you people who are using 'talking points' . . . its as if you get together for a tupperware party and go over all the attack strategies, I can just see this Pittsburgh thing coming out after some rally to win over the swing state . . . I doubt you have ever even been in Pittsburgh! Tell me, what plant did you visit? what part of the city was it in? Can you describe the city for me?
Originally posted by pfflam
What the hell are you talking about?!?! his 'lifestyle'?!?!
. . . your like a tick that just refuses to stop even though its head has been pulled clean off . . .
What are these fantasies?
Heinz isn't leaving Pittsburgh . . . I just was in Pittsburgh, I lived in Pittsburgh and it isn't leaving . . . it is closing one part of one smaller plant and relocating . . .probably NOT out of state, perhaps not even out of the region .. . at least that was the buzz.
It is you people who are using 'talking points' . . . its as if you get together for a tupperware party and go over all the attack strategies, I can just see this Pittsburgh thing coming out after some rally to win over the swing state . . . I doubt you have ever even been in Pittsburgh! Tell me, what plant did you visit? what part of the city was it in? Can you describe the city for me?
I lived on Alluvian Street and ate at Primanti Brothers all of the time. I worked at Kasnick Welding as a Machinist, they do many, if not most repairs for the Pittsburgh heinz factory.
Come on why do you do this to yourself?
Oh yeah, my wife was born and raised right across the the Monongahela bridge.
Originally posted by pfflam
What the hell are you talking about?!?! his 'lifestyle'?!?!
. . . your like a tick that just refuses to stop even though its head has been pulled clean off . . .
What are these fantasies?
Heinz isn't leaving Pittsburgh . . . I just was in Pittsburgh, I lived in Pittsburgh and it isn't leaving . . . it is closing one part of one smaller plant and relocating . . .probably NOT out of state, perhaps not even out of the region .. . at least that was the buzz.
It is you people who are using 'talking points' . . . its as if you get together for a tupperware party and go over all the attack strategies, I can just see this Pittsburgh thing coming out after some rally to win over the swing state . . . I doubt you have ever even been in Pittsburgh! Tell me, what plant did you visit? what part of the city was it in? Can you describe the city for me?
Oh yeah, I was not talking about the Pittsburgh plant, but the other jobs they have located overseas, those are factory jobs.
Originally posted by NaplesX
[B]I think he was pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of Kerry's lifestyle and what he is trying to sell.
Here's what he said:
Well, he has no plans. He wants to delegate our foreign policy to the UN so we can resume good buddy status with France and Germany. He is going to raise our taxes and kill what is a robust economic recovery. And why is he not talking about how many jobs Heinz has outsourced - the source of wealth that allows him and his wife to live in the lap of luxury of private jets, mansions across the nation and a fleet of fuel guzzling SUVs? He does not want to talk about that. I can only imagine why...
This is a standard-issue Rush Limbaugh transcription. I'll translate:
No plans. Undermine US sovereignty. France and Germany suck. Raise taxes = destroy economy. ABSURD QUESTION ABOUT WHY HE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT SOMETHING A) ABSURD AND
You, yourself, pointed out that asking such questions is silly. And while you came close to the correct answer, you didn't quite drive it home. Here it is: Kerry is talking about markets and their tendencies, not singling out individual companies for ridicule. And the reason he's not going to talk about Heinz is that it would be stupid. It would be equally stupid for Bush to talk about Haliburton. It's the elephant in the room that we all pretend isn't there. To ask that Kerry point it out while claiming that Bush need not is hypocritical and idiotic.
Here is where you should begin to get a clue about this: I don't like Kerry. I don't like Bush. We have before us a choice between two yankee, wealthy, sons of wealthy, powerful, New England men who were educated in New England and whose family money is deeply embedded in politics. For the same reasons, I didn't like Dean. I do not like the choices available to me in this oligarchy, and so I go for the best of all possible tyrants.
Add to this I'm not even sure what "speech" we're talking about. 7E7 is really bad about supplying links to back up his (?) claims, so at the moment I can only assume that we're debating one of his hypotheticals. Another Limbaugh tactic, of course.
Were Kerry trying to "sell" himself as a "regular guy, a Warshington outsider," then I'd be pissed. But he's not. I don't know how 7E7's argument does anything to counter what he's trying to "sell."
You then dodged that assertion and pointed out IT and factory jobs going overseas, as if that negated the issue.
And, by your own argument (see above), it does negate the issue, since the question is stupid.
I did some repair work at the heinz factory when I worked in Pittsburgh and those ARE factory jobs that are going elsewhere from heinz.
Well all righty then! I guess that seals the deal! Personal testimony! From a nameless, faceless, random person on an internet discussion forum. Not that I think you're lying (I actually don't), but the fact remains that in a forum debate like this, personal testimony counts for squat.
But more to the point. While the entire tech support industry in the US is being outsourced, I'm sure that the voters will be deeply concerned that you've directed our attention to how one company's jobs are being outsourced (no doubt to Mexico as part of NAFTA).
Kerry could effect way more influence over heinz than GWB and Haliburton.
That's patently absurd. Let me get this straight: Kerry married into the Heinz family and thus can sway the entire company's business dealings.
On the other hand, sweet, innocent little Dick Cheney used to RUN Haliburton. He is now one of the hand-selected (actually, personally selected, but that's another issue) NEXT IN LINE FOR THE PRESIDENCY. He held a cabinet position under the current president's father. Their dealings go back DECADES. Even now, Cheney's in the supreme court fighting to keep his meetings with Haliburton secret. Haliburton was the recipient of billions in Iraqi reconstruction projects. And yet Kerry can influence Heinz more than Bush can his second in command's former company? Give me some of whatever you're smoking!
Originally posted by midwinter
This is a standard-issue Rush Limbaugh transcription.
It is?
Because like I have stated, I rarely listen to him (I haven't for over two weaks, and then three month before that) so your characterization of me is wrong.
You probably could have made your argument without even prefacing it with that statement, but like may here you could not help yourself, could you?
First my honesty is questioned and I am told I probably didn't live where I lived and then to add the insult I am reported to be a right winger like Rush.
Nice try, but you are both way off.
Originally posted by NaplesX
It is?
Because like I have stated, I rarely listen to him (I haven't for over two weaks, and then three month before that) so your characterization of me is wrong.
You probably could have made your argument without even prefacing it with that statement, but like may here you could not help yourself, could you?
First my honesty is questioned and I am told I probably didn't live where I lived and then to add the insult I am reported to be a right winger like Rush.
Nice try, but you are both way off.
My god. Either you didn't even read what I wrote or you can't tell the difference between what you wrote and what 7E7 wrote. I clearly indicated that the quote was from 7E7. I then translated HIS words and called them a Rush Limbaugh transcript. NOWHERE IN MY POST DID I CLAIM THAT THE QUOTE CAME FROM YOU. Each post has an attribution. I suggest that you pay attention to it.
Even more, I explicitly stated that I actually believed that you worked in PA at the Heinz factory.
Even even more, I don't believe I compared you anywhere to Rush.
Originally posted by midwinter
My god. Either you didn't even read what I wrote or you can't tell the difference between what you wrote and what 7E7 wrote. I clearly indicated that the quote was from 7E7. I then translated HIS words and called them a Rush Limbaugh transcript. NOWHERE IN MY POST DID I CLAIM THAT THE QUOTE CAME FROM YOU. Each post has an attribution. I suggest that you pay attention to it.
Even more, I explicitly stated that I actually believed that you worked in PA at the Heinz factory.
Even even more, I don't believe I compared you anywhere to Rush.
I read it and know exactly where you were going, don't play coy.
Your tactic are very blatant.
I mean that is cool, but it does not become you or anyone else that uses them.
Originally posted by NaplesX
I read it and know exactly where you were going, don't play coy.
Your tactic are very blatant.
I mean that is cool, but it does not become you or anyone else that uses them.
Look. I said what I said. It's right up there. If you want to get bent out of shape for stuff that you just make up, that's your deal. But don't say I did things that I didn't.
Lets just keep things in perspective.
Going into combat and fulfilling your duty while not going into combat are not the same things. Has even one Republican president even ben in combat?
Is there really anyone anywhere on this planet who can say the US effort in Vietnam wasn't misgided. That is not even an issue. 60,000 lost and what was accomplished? Name one good thing that came out of the war. And as for all the reasons for going into the war, the fall of indo-china to communism through the domino effect, undo Chineese influence in indo-china, not one of them happened. All a bunch of fear mongering and hot air.
Most of the intelligence used by the anti-war movement in the US came from returning soldiers. They weren't traitors. They just wanted to tell their story, to let the American people know how it really was, and the anti-war protesters were pretty much the only people who would listen to them. Funny how many now call them traitors. But, the generals and military leaders who lied through their teath to the American people, they were all upstanding Americans, right? Two of my friends died in Vietnam. One of them told me he had personally witnessed a US pilot drop napalm on a friendly village, after they couldn't find their target, then turn and go back to watch the people running around while being burned by napalm. He saw this from the second seat of a fighter bomber. All of us who were alive at the time, who cared to know, know there were atrocities in Vietnam. It's not even worth talking about. Those who dispute that, they just didn't want to know.
Originally posted by midwinter
Look. I said what I said. It's right up there. If you want to get bent out of shape for stuff that you just make up, that's your deal. But don't say I did things that I didn't.
Hey I am not upset in any way. I thought we were just having a discussion.
I just refuse to fall for/into your and generalizations, no biggie. Be happy.
Originally posted by norfa
People , people people.
Lets just keep things in perspective.
Going into combat and fulfilling your duty while not going into combat are not the same things. Has even one Republican president even ben in combat?
Is there really anyone anywhere on this planet who can say the US effort in Vietnam wasn't misgided. That is not even an issue. 60,000 lost and what was accomplished? Name one good thing that came out of the war. And as for all the reasons for going into the war, the fall of indo-china to communism through the domino effect, undo Chineese influence in indo-china, not one of them happened. All a bunch of fear mongering and hot air.
Most of the intelligence used by the anti-war movement in the US came from returning soldiers. They weren't traitors. They just wanted to tell their story, to let the American people know how it really was, and the anti-war protesters were pretty much the only people who would listen to them. Funny how many now call them traitors. But, the generals and military leaders who lied through their teath to the American people, they were all upstanding Americans, right? Two of my friends died in Vietnam. One of them told me he had personally witnessed a US pilot drop napalm on a friendly village, after they couldn't find their target, then turn and go back to watch the people running around while being burned by napalm. He saw this from the second seat of a fighter bomber. All of us who were alive at the time, who cared to know, know there were atrocities in Vietnam. It's not even worth talking about. Those who dispute that, they just didn't want to know.
The problem is that a big part of the views of that war were formed as a result of the lies perpetrated by Kerry himself. These views based on lies effected a whole generation and arguably foreign policy.
To say that it does not matter now is extremely naive in my opinion. To refuse to see the wet finger in the air method of choosing right and wrong on the part of a future leader of the free world is past unwise.
This thread was started after I watched Senator Kerry being interviewed by Tim Russert. His apparent dismissal of his youthful comments was an eyebrow-raiser. You had to see the body language and hear the inflection of his voice to get the full effect.
I don't think of John Kerry The Politician as noble. I believe that he is a calculating opportunist, no different from the majority of his colleagues. The true Dean supporters (you know who you are) had (and have) no passion for Kerry and If there were no George Bush in office you can bet that they'd not be in bed with the man.
Go way back to my previous posts to see my read on Kerry's comments in context with his life. Mostly, I understand how he might feel differently now. While I can respect that, I don't have to consider him the best choice for President.
How screwed up is the Democratic Party that the best candidate that they can put forward is someone whose best selling point is that he "isn't" the other candidate? To say that "it's time for responsible decision making" by the Democratic Party is silly. The party will reform from within or be replaced from without by something new. I think that Harald touched upon this in another thread.
Our old faithful political parties are undergoing a polarity shift as we rage in these forums.
More than anything, please try to return to the original topic of the thread or start a new one.
Perhaps a thread about how Senator Kerry has backed off his firm stance of not attacking his opponent's military record? Was he forced into this battle-of-honor? I actually don't think that he was, but I could be wrong. Either way, he's just proven that his promises aren't cast in stone (assuming that it can be confirmed that he originally made such a vow).
Originally posted by NaplesX
The problem is that a big part of the views of that war were formed as a result of the lies perpetrated by Kerry himself. These views based on lies effected a whole generation and arguably foreign policy.
To say that it does not matter now is extremely naive in my opinion. To refuse to see the wet finger in the air method of choosing right and wrong on the part of a future leader of the free world is past unwise.
Sorry Naples, but that is just utter nonsense.
It's nonsense that somehow "lies" managed to befuddle an entire generation. It's nonsense that these "lies" were perpetrated by Kerry (or as the wording of your post would have it, largely engineered by Kerry).
The lie is that Vietnam was a good war brought down by hippies and naysayers. I'm astonished to hear anyone under the age of 60 trotting out this tired old stuff. It was crap when Agnew was selling it, it's crap now.