well, there are certain factors---unless you are a strict vegan---that concern the animal that you are harvesting.
1. it's not a happy meal on the counter, next to the hermetically sealed kastup, it is an animal, and it just wants to live---keep in mind most big game are herbavores
2. if you respect the animal---you will kill it instantly
3. grain farming grinds up inumerable mice, birds, rabbits etc.---not to mention the fossil-fuel methods that carry the "guilt free" merchandise to market.
....unless you consider animal factory farming the lesser of two evils, getting "dialed in" at the range is the appropriate and responsible practice----at least until we can lock "wild" game into cinder block structures, forcing them to live their lives in cages not wide enough to turn around in---to live their entire lives never seeing the sun.
Otherwise, as a responsible meat eater, I'll take my options, and enjoy the practice of target shooting, hunting and eating---without the TV thought-world intruding on my reality.
This reality is not suitable for some---reducing the steer in the feedlot to a beef burrito----without any real thought as to how this happens, is all too condusive, these days--hey who cares? It's all too easy to care.
Eat drink and be merry! Who cares what has to die? (how OR why)
So what's with the "harvesting" language? "Scientific"? Seems a little, well, bloodless.
At any rate, your particular hunting practices aren't really the topic at hand. I'm sure you have no trouble acquiring your weapon of choice to perform your ritual of food chain dominance. It would be cooler if you took them out in hand to hand combat, but hey... (Say, did you ever wonder where your water, clothes, lumber, electricity, consumer goods, etc. come from? Home spun: not suitable for some.)
The topic is not being able to get "good" guns in California. I'm still curious as to what these are, and if they are actually forbidden or just hard to come by.
The emergent topic of gun culture and it's relationship to dick size is in re fetishists and caliber love.
Actually there is a point to the hunting bit. Unless there is a point to shooting---whether for food or self defense---the medium can easily become the message. Just look at Catch-and-release fishing. Good clean fun? Not if your are the fish struggling to gratifly some guy's sadistic desires. But based on those desires you have a billion-dollar industry that would come collapse singnificantly if the anglers went out, got their fish and went home.
And part of the blow'em up desire might be coming from being young, too---better that desire come out at the skeet range or rifle range than drag racing down main street. Anybody ever notice how FRIGGIN POLITE people are at the range? I have visions of 'Chip and Dale' with Uzis "Oh no, after yoooou..."
I also think this is analogous to marital arts---sure you've got some assholes who are doing it for the machismo factor---but the guys who are really good at it, who will sitck around for their 6th degree black belt, tend to be the ones who did it for the physical discipline.
edit: On the "Gun culture" thing, the term itself is a smear to achive a social purpose. Moore was shown to have used every cheap editing and first-semester rehtoric technique to sell his "documentary"---which procludes it from being part an infromed discussion of the "Gun Culture"---if it, in fact, exists.
I know very few people who are "gun nuts"---but I do know them. They don't represent any significant portion of gun owners. Most of the gun owners I know own guns for a specifc purpose, and yes there is a strong competition on "who's the better shot" but that is men being men. Reducing this to "dick size" sounds a bit spitefull.
Actually there is a point to the hunting bit. Unless there is a point to shooting---whether for food or self defense---the medium can easily become the message. Just look at Catch-and-release fishing. Good clean fun? Not if your are the fish struggling to gratifly some guy's sadistic desires. But based on those desires you have a billion-dollar industry that would come collapse singnificantly if the anglers went out, got their fish and went home.
And part of the blow'em up desire might be coming from being young, too---better that desire come out at the skeet range or rifle range than drag racing down main street. Anybody ever notice how FRIGGIN POLITE people are at the range? I have visions of 'Chip and Dale' with Uzis "Oh no, after yoooou..."
I also think this is analogous to marital arts---sure you've got some assholes who are doing it for the machismo factor---but the guys who are really good at it, who will sitck around for their 6th degree black belt, tend to be the ones who did it for the physical discipline.
edit: On the "Gun culture" thing, the term itself is a smear to achive a social purpose. Moore was shown to have used every cheap editing and first-semester rehtoric technique to sell his "documentary"---which procludes it from being part an infromed discussion of the "Gun Culture"---if it, in fact, exists.
I know very few people who are "gun nuts"---but I do know them. They don't represent any significant portion of gun owners. Most of the gun owners I know own guns for a specifc purpose, and yes there is a strong competition on "who's the better shot" but that is men being men. Reducing this to "dick size" sounds a bit spitefull.
How about a documentary on the "Porn Culture"?
Excellent response.
Now I would argue that there is some kind of disconnect between gun owners who have a specific purpose (i.e. hunting, target shooting, and, in my opinion the illusory "self-defense") and the larger issue of gun regulation.
How do we get from regulating the guns people want to use for these demonstrated purposes to the semi-insane stances of the NRA (which inform my notions of "gun culture")?
When we get into the politics of gun control, suddenly we are in the land of militias fighting off the black helicopters and slippery slopes and "my cold dead fingers". I realize most gun owners aren't necessarily down with this rhetoric per se, but the tone informs every discussion about rational gun control.
The "not-gun culture" practices you describe don't seem much different than many other enthusiasms: cars, rock climbing, model airplanes, chess...
But you don't see cross-us-or-you-die lobbies and single issue citizen mobilization or constitutional line drawing around things like mufflers and off limit rocks.
There just seems to be something about guns. Call it atavistic, call it intrinsic to the American character, call it nuts or patriotic or wised-up or blood thirsty, it's hard to see how guns are just another pastime when enthusiasts traffic in such, excuse the expression, red-meat rhetoric.
There just seems to be something about guns. Call it atavistic, call it intrinsic to the American character, call it nuts or patriotic or wised-up or blood thirsty, it's hard to see how guns are just another pastime when enthusiasts traffic in such, excuse the expression, red-meat rhetoric.
I agree, there seems to be something tied up in keeping and bearing arms, and them having the sense to not completely twist off on that right. Keep and bear arms.........does that mean I can have SAM launcher in my Garage? I don't think some cultures generate a level of self control that is condusive to owning long-range killing equipment.
The nature of American culture is arguably so debased with gang activity in nearly all American cities, levels of rape, etc., that simply putting a lid on gun ownership would only bottle up some pretty ugly sentiments---at least until the networks to provide illegal weapons were put in place. I can't see a place like south central L.A. becoming safe or the hatred that drives the gang bangers going away.
I got irritated with Moore's hit piece, the notion that the rednecks are going to tear the contry to pieces, or that Dylan and Clithead were anything but the results of crap parenting---really sound empty headed. Intentions of mass murder can't be just written off to opportunity. I watched Cris Rock's standup routine on Columbine:
"people ask what were they listening to-.what kind of video games did they play-SHIT!!-whatever happened to CRAZY?--shootin' people in the mornin'---that aint right!"
(To be honest I've only read critiques of Moore's "documentary" and heard him speak in public---I'd rent BFC but I don't think he needs the encouragement.)
ShawnJ: I've got to check on that frontline thing-it sounds good.
i honestly couldn't care less if you owned a gun with certain provisions which would make the streets infinitely safer and crimes much easier to solve such as finger printing all weapons and advanced methods to prevent the discharge of weapons unless they are being held by their rightful owner...
Hi Billybobsky -
I completely agree with what you said here.
I do, however, own a .38 police special that my dad gave me (for Christmas ).
I am glad to have a weapon, because in the summer I love to go on 5,000-mile round-trips - on my own. What I most fear is my car breaking down in the middle of nowhere, and there I am, stuck alongside the road, for any passing axe-murderer, rapist to see.
I used to have a *huge* dog (Samoyed) that would have given any axe-murderer rapist second (and even third) thoughts. But I no longer have her protection; so I have a gun. I'm glad to have it, and would not want to be without it on the road. Most of the places I go have huge uninhabited areas in between towns - Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Montana, Alberta, British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, etc.
Also, here at home, in the city where I live, "home invasion robberies", by four or five guys, are NOT uncommon (unfortunately). So, even at home I'm glad to be armed. I *wouldn't* be able to fight even one person with my bare hands, nor would any guy, if there were several robbers.
Do I know anyone who has been involved in gun violence? Yes.
One of my ex-students was shot in the chest with a shotgun during a drug deal (he died instantly). Another ex-student killed a police officer. Another ex-student (age 15/16) took a gun back to a party where he'd been insulted and killed someone. He's spending 14 yrs. in the penitentiary...was tried as an adult. Another ex-student killed someone at another party. Last year, one of my student's brother was murdered; another's father was murdered.
One last crime (wrt my students) didn't involve guns, but did involve drugs. I had a girl in class whose mother traded her sexually to drug suppliers. I think the mom was strung out on coke. She started using her daughter this way at the age of nine. When she was in my class (age 12), she was with a foster family, and was a lovely, intelligent girl. The foster family was religious, and didn't want her to read a book like Anne of Green Gables for my class; they wanted her to read religious tracts instead. Poor kid.
And I already mentioned on another thread my current student, who was abducted, handcuffed to a bed, and raped last year at the age of 11.
The school where I teach is in a very affluent neighborhood; but the kids come from four elementary schools:
~one lower middle-class
~one middle-class
~one a mixture of upper, upper middle-class ('on' the mountain) & lower middle-class (foot of the mtn.)
~and the final one that's a mixture of upper middle-class and the extremely affluent
We 'do' have sort of a gang element present, though the kids are only ages 12-14.
I have a student right now that I know will spend most of his life in prison (for assault, robbery and murder - my prediction). It's scary, because he's smart, and filled with anger that he has to repress at home. So he lets it out on kids at school whom he abuses when the teacher isn't looking. Very sneaky. I would NOT like to be his teacher when he is old enough to drive. ...because he's smart enough to figure out ways to track people down at their homes. Shudder.
You'd think something could be done to change him, since he's only 12/13 and hasn't actually killed anyone yet. But I honestly think it's WAY too late by now. Have to get these kids much, MUCH earlier - say kindergarden! ...to be able to effect any personality changes.
I apologize for being off-topic.
Edit:All the students I mentioned above were middle-class white kids...15 miles north of the "inner city".
Edit: I was a bit of a sociopath when I was in elementary school. If you build the kids confindence in school that will distract him from taking out his desires on others...
Edit: I was a bit of a sociopath when I was in elementary school. If you build the kids confindence in school that will distract him from taking out his desires on others...
I did really well with this kid for about four months - mainly by my avoiding confrontations with him, and trying to handle things in ways that circumvented my having to respond in a negative manner to his behavior. (read: I tried to ignore as much as I could, and did try to channel him in other directions.) But finally some small thing evolved into a confrontation of sorts, and I "lost" him forever. Honestly, he acts like a convict already, even to the sneer on his face. Kids hardly ever scare me; but I would not like to meet him when he's a lot taller than I (which won't be long, because I'm only 5'4").
Btw, my ex-husband was expelled from 8th grade for riding his motorcycle through the hall at his jr. high. haha. I'm glad I didn't know him then. When I met him he was an engineering student! Quite a change, huh? I guess he was a sociopath too.
Btw, my ex-husband was expelled from 8th grade for riding his motorcycle through the hall at his jr. high. haha. I'm glad I didn't know him then. When I met him he was an engineering student! Quite a change, huh? I guess he was a sociopath too.
You're married to Yngwie Malmsteen?
Oh wait, he was never an engineer. Your husband must have just been a copycat.
Oh wait, he was never an engineer. Your husband must have just been a copycat.
Did Yngwie get expelled too?
And back to guns, my brother bought an Ak-47 with a couple of banana clips while AK's were still legal to buy. I would love to fire it at a range someday. It's worth a LOT more now than when he bought it. He bought it because he collects guns, including antique guns (and commando knives). He's actually in a branch of law enforcement, and is required to carry a concealed weapon most of the time.
And back to guns, my brother bought an Ak-47 with a couple of banana clips while AK's were still legal to buy. I would love to fire it at a range someday. It's worth a LOT more now than when he bought it. He bought it because he collects guns (and commando knives). He's actually in a branch of law enforcement, and carries a concealed weapon most of the time.
He has a degree in history and is interested in weapons through the ages.
He *IS* a very nice, affable person, whose job, by the way, is to protect YOU. Please don't insinuate that he is some sort of wacko. He risks his life everyday for our safety and doesn't deserve to be denigrated. People whose job requires them to be trained in the use of weapons often become interested in them as collectors' items. People who in addition have a background in history become interested in weapons and their manufacture through the centuries. He has read widely about the Vietnam War, and the AK-47 is a major artifact of that war. He bought it as a collector's item, not to go join a militia.
Comments
Originally posted by dmz
well, there are certain factors---unless you are a strict vegan---that concern the animal that you are harvesting.
1. it's not a happy meal on the counter, next to the hermetically sealed kastup, it is an animal, and it just wants to live---keep in mind most big game are herbavores
2. if you respect the animal---you will kill it instantly
3. grain farming grinds up inumerable mice, birds, rabbits etc.---not to mention the fossil-fuel methods that carry the "guilt free" merchandise to market.
....unless you consider animal factory farming the lesser of two evils, getting "dialed in" at the range is the appropriate and responsible practice----at least until we can lock "wild" game into cinder block structures, forcing them to live their lives in cages not wide enough to turn around in---to live their entire lives never seeing the sun.
Otherwise, as a responsible meat eater, I'll take my options, and enjoy the practice of target shooting, hunting and eating---without the TV thought-world intruding on my reality.
This reality is not suitable for some---reducing the steer in the feedlot to a beef burrito----without any real thought as to how this happens, is all too condusive, these days--hey who cares? It's all too easy to care.
Eat drink and be merry! Who cares what has to die? (how OR why)
So what's with the "harvesting" language? "Scientific"? Seems a little, well, bloodless.
At any rate, your particular hunting practices aren't really the topic at hand. I'm sure you have no trouble acquiring your weapon of choice to perform your ritual of food chain dominance. It would be cooler if you took them out in hand to hand combat, but hey... (Say, did you ever wonder where your water, clothes, lumber, electricity, consumer goods, etc. come from? Home spun: not suitable for some.)
The topic is not being able to get "good" guns in California. I'm still curious as to what these are, and if they are actually forbidden or just hard to come by.
The emergent topic of gun culture and it's relationship to dick size is in re fetishists and caliber love.
And part of the blow'em up desire might be coming from being young, too---better that desire come out at the skeet range or rifle range than drag racing down main street. Anybody ever notice how FRIGGIN POLITE people are at the range? I have visions of 'Chip and Dale' with Uzis "Oh no, after yoooou..."
I also think this is analogous to marital arts---sure you've got some assholes who are doing it for the machismo factor---but the guys who are really good at it, who will sitck around for their 6th degree black belt, tend to be the ones who did it for the physical discipline.
edit: On the "Gun culture" thing, the term itself is a smear to achive a social purpose. Moore was shown to have used every cheap editing and first-semester rehtoric technique to sell his "documentary"---which procludes it from being part an infromed discussion of the "Gun Culture"---if it, in fact, exists.
I know very few people who are "gun nuts"---but I do know them. They don't represent any significant portion of gun owners. Most of the gun owners I know own guns for a specifc purpose, and yes there is a strong competition on "who's the better shot" but that is men being men. Reducing this to "dick size" sounds a bit spitefull.
How about a documentary on the "Porn Culture"?
Originally posted by dmz
Actually there is a point to the hunting bit. Unless there is a point to shooting---whether for food or self defense---the medium can easily become the message. Just look at Catch-and-release fishing. Good clean fun? Not if your are the fish struggling to gratifly some guy's sadistic desires. But based on those desires you have a billion-dollar industry that would come collapse singnificantly if the anglers went out, got their fish and went home.
And part of the blow'em up desire might be coming from being young, too---better that desire come out at the skeet range or rifle range than drag racing down main street. Anybody ever notice how FRIGGIN POLITE people are at the range? I have visions of 'Chip and Dale' with Uzis "Oh no, after yoooou..."
I also think this is analogous to marital arts---sure you've got some assholes who are doing it for the machismo factor---but the guys who are really good at it, who will sitck around for their 6th degree black belt, tend to be the ones who did it for the physical discipline.
edit: On the "Gun culture" thing, the term itself is a smear to achive a social purpose. Moore was shown to have used every cheap editing and first-semester rehtoric technique to sell his "documentary"---which procludes it from being part an infromed discussion of the "Gun Culture"---if it, in fact, exists.
I know very few people who are "gun nuts"---but I do know them. They don't represent any significant portion of gun owners. Most of the gun owners I know own guns for a specifc purpose, and yes there is a strong competition on "who's the better shot" but that is men being men. Reducing this to "dick size" sounds a bit spitefull.
How about a documentary on the "Porn Culture"?
Excellent response.
Now I would argue that there is some kind of disconnect between gun owners who have a specific purpose (i.e. hunting, target shooting, and, in my opinion the illusory "self-defense") and the larger issue of gun regulation.
How do we get from regulating the guns people want to use for these demonstrated purposes to the semi-insane stances of the NRA (which inform my notions of "gun culture")?
When we get into the politics of gun control, suddenly we are in the land of militias fighting off the black helicopters and slippery slopes and "my cold dead fingers". I realize most gun owners aren't necessarily down with this rhetoric per se, but the tone informs every discussion about rational gun control.
The "not-gun culture" practices you describe don't seem much different than many other enthusiasms: cars, rock climbing, model airplanes, chess...
But you don't see cross-us-or-you-die lobbies and single issue citizen mobilization or constitutional line drawing around things like mufflers and off limit rocks.
There just seems to be something about guns. Call it atavistic, call it intrinsic to the American character, call it nuts or patriotic or wised-up or blood thirsty, it's hard to see how guns are just another pastime when enthusiasts traffic in such, excuse the expression, red-meat rhetoric.
Originally posted by dmz
How about a documentary on the "Porn Culture"?
Done.
Originally posted by addabox
There just seems to be something about guns. Call it atavistic, call it intrinsic to the American character, call it nuts or patriotic or wised-up or blood thirsty, it's hard to see how guns are just another pastime when enthusiasts traffic in such, excuse the expression, red-meat rhetoric.
I agree, there seems to be something tied up in keeping and bearing arms, and them having the sense to not completely twist off on that right. Keep and bear arms.........does that mean I can have SAM launcher in my Garage? I don't think some cultures generate a level of self control that is condusive to owning long-range killing equipment.
The nature of American culture is arguably so debased with gang activity in nearly all American cities, levels of rape, etc., that simply putting a lid on gun ownership would only bottle up some pretty ugly sentiments---at least until the networks to provide illegal weapons were put in place. I can't see a place like south central L.A. becoming safe or the hatred that drives the gang bangers going away.
I got irritated with Moore's hit piece, the notion that the rednecks are going to tear the contry to pieces, or that Dylan and Clithead were anything but the results of crap parenting---really sound empty headed. Intentions of mass murder can't be just written off to opportunity. I watched Cris Rock's standup routine on Columbine:
"people ask what were they listening to-.what kind of video games did they play-SHIT!!-whatever happened to CRAZY?--shootin' people in the mornin'---that aint right!"
(To be honest I've only read critiques of Moore's "documentary" and heard him speak in public---I'd rent BFC but I don't think he needs the encouragement.)
ShawnJ: I've got to check on that frontline thing-it sounds good.
Originally posted by billybobsky
i honestly couldn't care less if you owned a gun with certain provisions which would make the streets infinitely safer and crimes much easier to solve such as finger printing all weapons and advanced methods to prevent the discharge of weapons unless they are being held by their rightful owner...
Hi Billybobsky -
I completely agree with what you said here.
I do, however, own a .38 police special that my dad gave me (for Christmas
I am glad to have a weapon, because in the summer I love to go on 5,000-mile round-trips - on my own. What I most fear is my car breaking down in the middle of nowhere, and there I am, stuck alongside the road, for any passing axe-murderer, rapist to see.
I used to have a *huge* dog (Samoyed) that would have given any axe-murderer rapist second (and even third) thoughts. But I no longer have her protection; so I have a gun. I'm glad to have it, and would not want to be without it on the road. Most of the places I go have huge uninhabited areas in between towns - Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Montana, Alberta, British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, etc.
Also, here at home, in the city where I live, "home invasion robberies", by four or five guys, are NOT uncommon (unfortunately). So, even at home I'm glad to be armed. I *wouldn't* be able to fight even one person with my bare hands, nor would any guy, if there were several robbers.
Do I know anyone who has been involved in gun violence? Yes.
One of my ex-students was shot in the chest with a shotgun during a drug deal (he died instantly). Another ex-student killed a police officer.
One last crime (wrt my students) didn't involve guns, but did involve drugs. I had a girl in class whose mother traded her sexually to drug suppliers. I think the mom was strung out on coke. She started using her daughter this way at the age of nine. When she was in my class (age 12), she was with a foster family, and was a lovely, intelligent girl. The foster family was religious, and didn't want her to read a book like Anne of Green Gables for my class; they wanted her to read religious tracts instead.
And I already mentioned on another thread my current student, who was abducted, handcuffed to a bed, and raped last year at the age of 11.
Originally posted by billybobsky
Do you work in hell or just another inner city?
The school where I teach is in a very affluent neighborhood; but the kids come from four elementary schools:
~one lower middle-class
~one middle-class
~one a mixture of upper, upper middle-class ('on' the mountain) & lower middle-class (foot of the mtn.)
~and the final one that's a mixture of upper middle-class and the extremely affluent
We 'do' have sort of a gang element present, though the kids are only ages 12-14.
I have a student right now that I know will spend most of his life in prison (for assault, robbery and murder - my prediction). It's scary, because he's smart, and filled with anger that he has to repress at home. So he lets it out on kids at school whom he abuses when the teacher isn't looking. Very sneaky.
You'd think something could be done to change him, since he's only 12/13 and hasn't actually killed anyone yet. But I honestly think it's WAY too late by now. Have to get these kids much, MUCH earlier - say kindergarden! ...to be able to effect any personality changes.
I apologize for being off-topic.
Edit: All the students I mentioned above were middle-class white kids...15 miles north of the "inner city".
Edit: I was a bit of a sociopath when I was in elementary school. If you build the kids confindence in school that will distract him from taking out his desires on others...
Originally posted by billybobsky
Hell it is then...
Edit: I was a bit of a sociopath when I was in elementary school. If you build the kids confindence in school that will distract him from taking out his desires on others...
I did really well with this kid for about four months - mainly by my avoiding confrontations with him, and trying to handle things in ways that circumvented my having to respond in a negative manner to his behavior. (read: I tried to ignore as much as I could, and did try to channel him in other directions.) But finally some small thing evolved into a confrontation of sorts, and I "lost" him forever.
Btw, my ex-husband was expelled from 8th grade for riding his motorcycle through the hall at his jr. high. haha. I'm glad I didn't know him then. When I met him he was an engineering student! Quite a change, huh?
Originally posted by Carol A
Btw, my ex-husband was expelled from 8th grade for riding his motorcycle through the hall at his jr. high. haha. I'm glad I didn't know him then. When I met him he was an engineering student! Quite a change, huh?
You're married to Yngwie Malmsteen?
Oh wait, he was never an engineer. Your husband must have just been a copycat.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
You're married to Yngwie Malmsteen?
Oh wait, he was never an engineer. Your husband must have just been a copycat.
Did Yngwie get expelled too?
And back to guns, my brother bought an Ak-47 with a couple of banana clips while AK's were still legal to buy. I would love to fire it at a range someday. It's worth a LOT more now than when he bought it. He bought it because he collects guns, including antique guns (and commando knives). He's actually in a branch of law enforcement, and is required to carry a concealed weapon most of the time.
Originally posted by Carol A
Did Yngwie get expelled too?
And back to guns, my brother bought an Ak-47 with a couple of banana clips while AK's were still legal to buy. I would love to fire it at a range someday. It's worth a LOT more now than when he bought it. He bought it because he collects guns (and commando knives). He's actually in a branch of law enforcement, and carries a concealed weapon most of the time.
Huh.
He sounds like an, um.... affable fella.....
Originally posted by addabox
Huh.
He sounds like an, um.... affable fella.....
He has a degree in history and is interested in weapons through the ages.
He *IS* a very nice, affable person, whose job, by the way, is to protect YOU. Please don't insinuate that he is some sort of wacko. He risks his life everyday for our safety and doesn't deserve to be denigrated. People whose job requires them to be trained in the use of weapons often become interested in them as collectors' items. People who in addition have a background in history become interested in weapons and their manufacture through the centuries. He has read widely about the Vietnam War, and the AK-47 is a major artifact of that war. He bought it as a collector's item, not to go join a militia.