Having now seen the "Daily Mirror" and closely studied the published pictures, I have serious doubts as to the authenticity of them. They look too posed and still, and too well exposed, lacking any kind of dynamics that would occur in such a situation.
They do in fact look as if someone had "perfectly" set them up: "Just hold your foot in front his face." CLICK.
No. I don't buy it.
I wonder what other people who have seen the originals in the papers as opposed to on the Net think. Not that it makes any difference, the damage having been done already.
While the female rape shots are clearly fake, it is hard to believe that woman have not been abused as well as men.
I wish that the American people cared about these violations, but I am afraid that they do not. Perhaps if the victims were white Europeans, but Africans, asians, latin americans and Arabs really do not count to mainstream America. Just my opinion of course.....
Alleast we can be sure these abuses were not wide spread. The US gov would never lie....
While the female rape shots are clearly fake, it is hard to believe that woman have not been abused as well as men.
I wish that the American people cared about these violations, but I am afraid that they do not. Perhaps if the victims were white Europeans, but Africans, asians, latin americans and Arabs really do not count to mainstream America. Just my opinion of course.....
They weren't "clearly fake" to giant or burningwheel, who took them as real (because it so neatly fit their view of the world).
Anyway, we can't play a game of "it is hard to believe that such and such isn't happening". That is endless and unfair mental masturbation and gets us nowhere. We can all imagine a lot of things, but it doesn't mean we can present them as fact or assume them to be real and make decisions based on fantasy.
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Everyone in the U.S. cares. There is no defense. No one wants this. Even if only for selfish practical reasons, if not moral ones. Even the most right wing people want them hanged because it jeopardizes the entire war. Some things transcend party politics and are simply wrong and not tolerated.
Don't confuse America's tolerance of torture for gathering terrorist information (which this wasn't) with tolerance of doing needlessly humiliating things to prisoners "for fun".
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Seymour Hersh is on CNN making excuses. Interrogation my ass. And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit. (Sorry, I'll read the transcript later, I might be wrong)
The British troops, who have been (suposedly) far more tolerant of Iraqis, their customs and religious beliefs than their American counterparts are also implicated in more cases of torture and murder:
Are we ever going to start getting abuse data from sources other than the MIRROR and MAIL UK tabloids? I'll feel a lot better about it when there aren't giant bikini photos/Page 3 girls juxtaposed next to the abuse photos.
And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit.
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Why?
Because you can't deny the glee and joy these soldiers are expressing. They are doing this willingly. Maybe they were told to do it but they are as guilty as their superiors then.
Are you asking that because you want the higher ups to also be implicated? I'm not excluding the higher ups from being involved, I'm merely trying to not be dismissive of the actions of the people actually in the photographs.
Did you think I was trying to defend the higher ups?
I can't glean what your point is if you are only going to post single words.
"The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment." - George W. Bush
Because you can't deny the glee and joy these soldiers are expressing. They are doing this willingly. Maybe they were told to do it but they are as guilty as their superiors then.
Then it's not "bullshit".
Quote:
Did you think I was trying to defend the higher ups?
You said, "And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit."
Taguba backed up his assertion by citing evidence from sworn statements to Army C.I.D. investigators. Specialist Sabrina Harman, one of the accused M.P.s, testified that it was her job to keep detainees awake, including one hooded prisoner who was placed on a box with wires attached to his fingers, toes, and penis. She stated, "MI wanted to get them to talk. It is Graner and Frederick?s job to do things for MI and OGA to get these people to talk."
This isn't some wacky show about teenagers playing pranks on each other behind the principles back.
Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, the commanding officer at the facility, says military intelligence ran the cell block where this stuff occurred.
At least there is an investigation and outrage. For a while there it was starting to look like one of the things "9/11 changed forever" was America's appetite for torture.
All you had to do was yell "terrorist" and all bets are off, cause, after all, if one guy in the 100 you are interrogating knows something that could conceivably lead to thwarting a terrorist attack, then God understands if you attach electrodes to the the testicles of the whole group. Certainly Mr. and Mrs. America understand, because to attack the "homeland" is the most grievous thing that ever happened in the history of the planet and permits literally anything in response.
You said, "And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit."
Ok, this is an issue of semantics based on my poorly chosen sentence structure.
"Bullshit" is referring to the obvious fact that the soldiers in the photographs were clearly enjoying the abuse, amused by it and even (stupidly) boldly proud of it (to not be ashamed to be in pictures where they are identifiable). The "Bullshit" was meant to deny that they were reluctantly doing something they were "forced" or "ordered" to do. "Bullshit" that they did not gleefully participate.
Not "Bullshit" that someone told them to do this stuff. I said "Bullshit" to not let the participants in the pictures get off the hook ? not "Bullshit" in the sense that "no one told them to do this".
Ordered or not, their obvious enjoyment negates any sympathy they might have gotten were they "forced" to do it by higher ups.
Not only are those pictures from 60 minutes, but kimmitt, in the interview discussing the photos, said it was not isolated.
backpedal folks---face it giant, you got suckered by a few facts buried in some hysteria---useful hysteria for the left, but hysteria all the same. Hysteria used and spun for maximum effect agianst the Bush and the Iraq war. Nothing more--nothing less. You people are so hyped up you were willing to look at porn and take it as "evidence."
(As for lapping up "60-minutes" "reporting"---I'll pass on being suckered for Viacom's ideology and bottom line.)
Honestly, use some discretion! Thank the Lord, the Universtiy of Colorado wasn't in Iraq doing any recruiting.
Are we ever going to start getting abuse data from sources other than the MIRROR and MAIL UK tabloids? I'll feel a lot better about it when there aren't giant bikini photos/Page 3 girls juxtaposed next to the abuse photos.
backpedal folks---face it giant, you got suckered by a few facts buried in some hysteria---useful hysteria for the left, but hysteria all the same. Hysteria used and spun for maximum effect agianst the Bush and the Iraq war. Nothing more--nothing less. You people are so hyped up you were willing to look at porn and take it as "evidence."
(As for lapping up "60-minutes" "reporting"---I'll pass on being suckered for Viacom's ideology and bottom line.)
Honestly, use some discretion! Thank the Lord, the Universtiy of Colorado wasn't in Iraq doing any recruiting.
For the love of God, follow some of the links that have been posted. A full blown investigation is underway. Bush himself has said he is shocked and dismayed. The military is assuring our allies that this isn't representative of US policy.
I said from my first post that the people who did this are up a creek. It's a crime---it will be handled by UMCJ (and more harshly than for a civilian BTW).
Comments
They do in fact look as if someone had "perfectly" set them up: "Just hold your foot in front his face." CLICK.
No. I don't buy it.
I wonder what other people who have seen the originals in the papers as opposed to on the Net think. Not that it makes any difference, the damage having been done already.
- T. I.
Originally posted by msantti
Any american who does these atrocious things should be hung by their balls.
would that include you then? or would you not do the hanging?
I wish that the American people cared about these violations, but I am afraid that they do not. Perhaps if the victims were white Europeans, but Africans, asians, latin americans and Arabs really do not count to mainstream America. Just my opinion of course.....
Alleast we can be sure these abuses were not wide spread. The US gov would never lie....
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...d=542&ncid=716
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
would that include you then? or would you not do the hanging?
ooh me, me... I'll volunteer and since I'm Dutch the above doesn't apply to me
..or better put them on trial in The Hague.... I'd would like to see a US invasion of the Netherlands
Originally posted by Beige_G3
While the female rape shots are clearly fake, it is hard to believe that woman have not been abused as well as men.
I wish that the American people cared about these violations, but I am afraid that they do not. Perhaps if the victims were white Europeans, but Africans, asians, latin americans and Arabs really do not count to mainstream America. Just my opinion of course.....
They weren't "clearly fake" to giant or burningwheel, who took them as real (because it so neatly fit their view of the world).
Anyway, we can't play a game of "it is hard to believe that such and such isn't happening". That is endless and unfair mental masturbation and gets us nowhere. We can all imagine a lot of things, but it doesn't mean we can present them as fact or assume them to be real and make decisions based on fantasy.
.
.
.
Everyone in the U.S. cares. There is no defense. No one wants this. Even if only for selfish practical reasons, if not moral ones. Even the most right wing people want them hanged because it jeopardizes the entire war. Some things transcend party politics and are simply wrong and not tolerated.
Don't confuse America's tolerance of torture for gathering terrorist information (which this wasn't) with tolerance of doing needlessly humiliating things to prisoners "for fun".
.
.
.
Seymour Hersh is on CNN making excuses. Interrogation my ass. And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit. (Sorry, I'll read the transcript later, I might be wrong)
Originally posted by johnq
They weren't "clearly fake" to giant or burningwheel, who took them as real (because it so neatly fit their view of the world).
Or maybe they're not as used to seeing porn as some others...
Originally posted by New
Or maybe they're not at used to seeing porn as some others... :-)
I'd be too distracted by factual errors to enjoy that site.
"Hey, she's Italian, not Iraqi, and why are they all in woodland camouflage in Iraq? ARRRRRGGHHH!"
http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_...name_page.html
And here is Seymour Hersh's article in The NewYorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
How to make friends and influence people....
What next, Bat Boy Sodomizes Iraqi Prisoners??
And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit.
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Why?
Originally posted by groverat
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And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit.
--
Why?
Because you can't deny the glee and joy these soldiers are expressing. They are doing this willingly. Maybe they were told to do it but they are as guilty as their superiors then.
Are you asking that because you want the higher ups to also be implicated? I'm not excluding the higher ups from being involved, I'm merely trying to not be dismissive of the actions of the people actually in the photographs.
Did you think I was trying to defend the higher ups?
I can't glean what your point is if you are only going to post single words.
"The United States is committed to the worldwide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment." - George W. Bush
Because you can't deny the glee and joy these soldiers are expressing. They are doing this willingly. Maybe they were told to do it but they are as guilty as their superiors then.
Then it's not "bullshit".
Did you think I was trying to defend the higher ups?
You said, "And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit."
Try reading the article that started all this:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
Taguba backed up his assertion by citing evidence from sworn statements to Army C.I.D. investigators. Specialist Sabrina Harman, one of the accused M.P.s, testified that it was her job to keep detainees awake, including one hooded prisoner who was placed on a box with wires attached to his fingers, toes, and penis. She stated, "MI wanted to get them to talk. It is Graner and Frederick?s job to do things for MI and OGA to get these people to talk."
This isn't some wacky show about teenagers playing pranks on each other behind the principles back.
Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, the commanding officer at the facility, says military intelligence ran the cell block where this stuff occurred.
At least there is an investigation and outrage. For a while there it was starting to look like one of the things "9/11 changed forever" was America's appetite for torture.
All you had to do was yell "terrorist" and all bets are off, cause, after all, if one guy in the 100 you are interrogating knows something that could conceivably lead to thwarting a terrorist attack, then God understands if you attach electrodes to the the testicles of the whole group. Certainly Mr. and Mrs. America understand, because to attack the "homeland" is the most grievous thing that ever happened in the history of the planet and permits literally anything in response.
I think maybe MI got a little ahead of the curve.
Originally posted by groverat
You said, "And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit."
Ok, this is an issue of semantics based on my poorly chosen sentence structure.
"Bullshit" is referring to the obvious fact that the soldiers in the photographs were clearly enjoying the abuse, amused by it and even (stupidly) boldly proud of it (to not be ashamed to be in pictures where they are identifiable). The "Bullshit" was meant to deny that they were reluctantly doing something they were "forced" or "ordered" to do. "Bullshit" that they did not gleefully participate.
Not "Bullshit" that someone told them to do this stuff. I said "Bullshit" to not let the participants in the pictures get off the hook ? not "Bullshit" in the sense that "no one told them to do this".
Ordered or not, their obvious enjoyment negates any sympathy they might have gotten were they "forced" to do it by higher ups.
Originally posted by giant
Not only are those pictures from 60 minutes, but kimmitt, in the interview discussing the photos, said it was not isolated.
backpedal folks---face it giant, you got suckered by a few facts buried in some hysteria---useful hysteria for the left, but hysteria all the same. Hysteria used and spun for maximum effect agianst the Bush and the Iraq war. Nothing more--nothing less. You people are so hyped up you were willing to look at porn and take it as "evidence."
(As for lapping up "60-minutes" "reporting"---I'll pass on being suckered for Viacom's ideology and bottom line.)
Honestly, use some discretion! Thank the Lord, the Universtiy of Colorado wasn't in Iraq doing any recruiting.
Originally posted by johnq
Are we ever going to start getting abuse data from sources other than the MIRROR and MAIL UK tabloids? I'll feel a lot better about it when there aren't giant bikini photos/Page 3 girls juxtaposed next to the abuse photos.
You obviously did not see either paper.
- T. I.
Originally posted by dmz
backpedal folks---face it giant, you got suckered by a few facts buried in some hysteria---useful hysteria for the left, but hysteria all the same. Hysteria used and spun for maximum effect agianst the Bush and the Iraq war. Nothing more--nothing less. You people are so hyped up you were willing to look at porn and take it as "evidence."
(As for lapping up "60-minutes" "reporting"---I'll pass on being suckered for Viacom's ideology and bottom line.)
Honestly, use some discretion! Thank the Lord, the Universtiy of Colorado wasn't in Iraq doing any recruiting.
For the love of God, follow some of the links that have been posted. A full blown investigation is underway. Bush himself has said he is shocked and dismayed. The military is assuring our allies that this isn't representative of US policy.
Sort it out, then come back.
Minus the whipped-up frenzy---what's to sort out?