The iraqis in the insurgency were all iraqis under the rule of saddam, yes. They were not all baathists, and most probably didn't support his leadership...
They are Iraqis who are remnants of Saddam Hussein's regime. They still represent a tiny majority of the Iraqi population as a whole. And Al Qaeda is backing the insurgency movement. I am not making this stuff up.
Do you really think the Iraqi people are the ones we are fighting over there? The people we are fighting against are Al Qaeda backed terrorists and others who share the same philosophy as all the other Islamic terrorist groups we are at war with. The vast majority of Iraqi citizens support us so don't make it out that we have no support over there and that we simply invaded a country that did not need to be liberated..
Wrong. As of late March/Early April, Iraqi citizens were roughly evenly divided in their support (and I'm sure that support has dropped even further since the prison torture photos were released)...
Quote:
The CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll showed conflicted feelings among Iraqis over the war and its impact at the time of the survey.
Fewer than one-quarter of Iraqis, mostly those in the Kurdish region of the country, expressed a favorable opinion of the United States. A majority of Iraqis (55 percent) had a negative opinion. The figure was even higher?more than 60 percent?among Iraqi Arabs, both Sunni and Shiite.
I don't have time to dig up a link to disprove your other claim which I believe might be just as inaccurate, that we are fighting Al Qaeda backed terrorists in Iraq. Maybe you could find a link to back up that assertation?
Quote:
Originally posted by 7E7
Get your head out of your ass...
It is okay to be anti-war but don't lie about what is happening over there because you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about.
Perhaps you should consider taking your own advice...
Apparently there are several other anomalies in the video but as I haven't seen it and don't intend to I can't comment.
I commented on this upthread, but noone seemed to confirm my observations (and I'm not going to watch it again to check.)
The timestamp on the "speech" part is about 02:40 and the beheading part is about 13:xx. That, and the marked change in video quality of the two parts, make me think something's up with the video.
I commented on this upthread, but noone seemed to confirm my observations (and I'm not going to watch it again to check.)
The timestamp on the "speech" part is about 02:40 and the beheading part is about 13:xx. That, and the marked change in video quality of the two parts, make me think something's up with the video.
Or
they have recorder "my name is..." part, which was then sent to US guys..
They have said no to trade, so the rest was recorder later.
they have recorder "my name is..." part, which was then sent to US guys..
They have said no to trade, so the rest was recorder later.
I'm not talking about the "my name is" part. I'm talking about the part when Berg is sitting on the ground while the beheader is reading his long speech in arabic and then, presumably, immediately after completing it, takes the machete to his head. To me, it looked like the beheading was right after he finished the speech, but the timestamps tell a different story.
1) I refuse to watch the video; thanks to all who watched, regretted it and then passed on a warning. I almost did watch it but there's no way in hell I will do so now. Serves no purpose other than to give the be-headers (whoever they were) what they want: viewers. I won't do it.
They can stick their cause (whatever it is) right up their ass.
2) While the entertainment and news media are guilty of frequently showing the most disgusting / disturbing footage possible (whether war related or what's happening in your own state) -- almost always in an effort to get ratings -- you can't overlook the fact that we see a lot more of these types of events during wartime than we used to.
During World War II, especially in the Pacific theatre, the Japanese were known to do things equally or more disgusting than all of the things we've been talking about, to scores of their prisoners and/or civilians from "the other side". Torture, rape (or forced prostitution) and beheadings were common.
For that matter, nobody ever saw the skin melting off Japanese bomb victims on the evening news either. Nobody saw that until much later. Societal norms were different back then; people (in any country) were not comfortable with such things being aired to their families, even if they wanted to read about it elsewhere in some cases.
The coverage was always about "the front" and who was advancing where and which generals / admirals were doing what, and who was entertaining the boys on the USO tour. Was probably something analagous in other countries as they reported on their own soldiers.
So my point here is not that these things happening in Iraq aren't an attrocity. They are as inhuman and perverse as you can get. But the plain fact is, historically speaking such things are common in war. We just don't see all of them all on TV or in the paper; many go unreported and eventually forgotten.
3) Which brings me to my next point: we seem to have forgotten that war itself is an attrocity. That is not to say that war is never warranted (the specifics of Iraq set aside for a moment), but that really, when you think about it... why is it less of a tragedy or attrocity when a civilian bystander gets his intestines strewn onto the street by a mortar, than it is for a civilian contractor to get be-headed?
Is it not an attrocity when a combatant gets his head blown off by a couple machine gun rounds, just because he's got a gun in his hand too? Is not horrific when soldiers sitting in a shelter somewhere get impaled by hundreds of shards of flying glass when a bomb drops on a nearby building? Less disturbing when a Captain gets his leg blown off by a land mine, because he's got double-bars on his shoulder? Does it matter what uniform you're wearing?
Thousands of disgusting and horrific things like this happen in every war, by definition. War is the systematic slaughtering of human beings, whether the reason is relatively just or not.
Don't try to logically separate the acts from the conflict. Whether sanctioned by recognizeable governing bodies or not, these kinds of things happen in every war. Israeli-Palestinian wars included (rockets, human bombs, bulldozers, etc). It would behoove us all never to forget it so the next time one is upon us, we have a full grasp of "what happens next".
Moogs, you are lucky that you did not watch the video. I wish I had listened and not done it. I can't get the images out of my mind. It is terrible. My first reaction is lets just nuke the whole damn region. Then I am reminded of the fact that two men in texas dragged a man behind a car not to long ago. I can't believe that people can be so brutal. What the hell possess people to do something like this? This whole Iraq thing has been a mess. I don't care what people thought about it before but can this, will this, get any better? I honestly think the region was better off with Sadam.
Yup, and you'll get used to it. It's what Americans do best. Bombings/beheadings...what's the dif? Americans and Iraqis are dieing every f*cking day, every f*cking hour...I don't see what all the 'beheading' fuss is about honestly. Big deal. It's a quick way to die, thank god for that. At least they didn't rape him first.
That has got to be one of the stupidest post I have ever read. I haven't seen the video...but did that little knife seem like a good tool for cutting off a head? Having your head sawed off with little more than a butter knife, through tendon and bone, would not be a quick way to die.
This should be on the evening news. War is sick, and everyone should know it. Don't hide the coffins, don't hide the bodies, don't hide any of it.
The video isn't that bad. If you can't stomach it then I don't think you're experienced or mature enough to participate in political discussions here in AO.
You know bunge, usually your arguments sound reasoned and sane, but you are going a bit overboard with these. Yes, war is sick. The video is disgusting and horrible, I am sure, even the descriptions are unnerving. None of which would lead me to think it should be broadcast. If a woman you knew was brutally raped and murdered, let say you mother, would you want that aired on international TV as a teaching tool for people to see how horrible it is? That is an extreme and vile analogy, but it makes my point...something just shouldn't be put on public display, That doesn't mean hide that it happened, just that there is little value in promoting it like an episode of Friends.
I heard on a the radio a report of an interesting edito of a french newspaper.
Basically it explains, that both pictures of the Abuse of Iraqi prisonners and the beheading of the US guy was horrible, but that the two do not compare.
The goal of the pictures of abuse of Iraqi prisonners is to point out the dysfonctionnement of a system in order to fix it. (and that's what happens : trials in martial court are in the way).
The goal of the atrocious murder of the US guys is just to bring more hate. Hatefull pictures to create more hate.
Wrong. As of late March/Early April, Iraqi citizens were roughly evenly divided in their support (and I'm sure that support has dropped even further since the prison torture photos were released)... LINK. Another more detailed link
I don't have time to dig up a link to disprove your other claim which I believe might be just as inaccurate, that we are fighting Al Qaeda backed terrorists in Iraq. Maybe you could find a link to back up that assertation?
Perhaps you should consider taking your own advice...
I saw an ABC poll on TV not too long ago that said that 7 out of 10 Iraqis said things overall were going well for them. I guess it all depends on what poll you want to cite. I checked your links and the overall data can be rather confusing and quite often the poll results conflict with each other. I think it is a confusing time for Iraqi citizens. Once we hand over power to the locals I would anticipate seeing an even more favorable attitude towards the United States because it will be a sign that a promise has been delivered and I think there will always be skeptics towards an occupying force until that actually happens.
As far as who the enemy we are fighting, the majority of the problem lies with the 20% of the population that is Sunni Arab. They are the ones who are resisting because they don't want to see the Kurds and the Shias in positions of power - they were used to control under Saddam's regime and are loath to take a back seat to anybody. We have had much more success in working with the Kurds and the Shias. And there clearly is a terrorist element that has come in from the outside and there is at least very strong circumstantial evidence that Al Qaeda or organizations closely aligned with them are behind many of the attacks that have occurred in Iraq. A lot of you may choose not to believe that but clearly a lot of people who know more about such things than you or I are pretty convinced that it would be in Al Qaeda's best interest to cause trouble for the U.S. in Iraq and many of the attacks over the last several months posess all the characteristics that Al Qaeda has become notorious for.
Comments
Originally posted by 7E7
They are Iraqis who are remnants of Saddam Hussein's regime. They still represent a tiny majority of the Iraqi population as a whole. And Al Qaeda is backing the insurgency movement. I am not making this stuff up.
Proof please! I won't take your word as evidence
Originally posted by 7E7
I am not making this stuff up.
Sure you are.
You don't understand the the various groups so you default to the old "al-qaeda is responsible for everything" mode. Have fun with that.
Originally posted by 7E7
tiny majority...
hehehe
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
hehehe
hehehehehe.
Originally posted by 7E7
Do you really think the Iraqi people are the ones we are fighting over there? The people we are fighting against are Al Qaeda backed terrorists and others who share the same philosophy as all the other Islamic terrorist groups we are at war with. The vast majority of Iraqi citizens support us so don't make it out that we have no support over there and that we simply invaded a country that did not need to be liberated..
Wrong. As of late March/Early April, Iraqi citizens were roughly evenly divided in their support (and I'm sure that support has dropped even further since the prison torture photos were released)...
The CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll showed conflicted feelings among Iraqis over the war and its impact at the time of the survey.
LINK.
Fewer than one-quarter of Iraqis, mostly those in the Kurdish region of the country, expressed a favorable opinion of the United States. A majority of Iraqis (55 percent) had a negative opinion. The figure was even higher?more than 60 percent?among Iraqi Arabs, both Sunni and Shiite.
Another more detailed link
I don't have time to dig up a link to disprove your other claim which I believe might be just as inaccurate, that we are fighting Al Qaeda backed terrorists in Iraq. Maybe you could find a link to back up that assertation?
Originally posted by 7E7
Get your head out of your ass...
It is okay to be anti-war but don't lie about what is happening over there because you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about.
Perhaps you should consider taking your own advice...
Originally posted by segovius
Apparently there are several other anomalies in the video but as I haven't seen it and don't intend to I can't comment.
I commented on this upthread, but noone seemed to confirm my observations (and I'm not going to watch it again to check.)
The timestamp on the "speech" part is about 02:40 and the beheading part is about 13:xx. That, and the marked change in video quality of the two parts, make me think something's up with the video.
Originally posted by torifile
I commented on this upthread, but noone seemed to confirm my observations (and I'm not going to watch it again to check.)
The timestamp on the "speech" part is about 02:40 and the beheading part is about 13:xx. That, and the marked change in video quality of the two parts, make me think something's up with the video.
Or
they have recorder "my name is..." part, which was then sent to US guys..
They have said no to trade, so the rest was recorder later.
Originally posted by piwozniak
Or
they have recorder "my name is..." part, which was then sent to US guys..
They have said no to trade, so the rest was recorder later.
I'm not talking about the "my name is" part. I'm talking about the part when Berg is sitting on the ground while the beheader is reading his long speech in arabic and then, presumably, immediately after completing it, takes the machete to his head. To me, it looked like the beheading was right after he finished the speech, but the timestamps tell a different story.
Originally posted by Moogs
A slightly different perspective:
1) I refuse to watch the video; thanks to all who watched, regretted it and then passed on a warning. I almost did watch it but there's no way in hell I will do so now. Serves no purpose other than to give the be-headers (whoever they were) what they want: viewers. I won't do it.
They can stick their cause (whatever it is) right up their ass.
2) While the entertainment and news media are guilty of frequently showing the most disgusting / disturbing footage possible (whether war related or what's happening in your own state) -- almost always in an effort to get ratings -- you can't overlook the fact that we see a lot more of these types of events during wartime than we used to.
During World War II, especially in the Pacific theatre, the Japanese were known to do things equally or more disgusting than all of the things we've been talking about, to scores of their prisoners and/or civilians from "the other side". Torture, rape (or forced prostitution) and beheadings were common.
For that matter, nobody ever saw the skin melting off Japanese bomb victims on the evening news either. Nobody saw that until much later. Societal norms were different back then; people (in any country) were not comfortable with such things being aired to their families, even if they wanted to read about it elsewhere in some cases.
The coverage was always about "the front" and who was advancing where and which generals / admirals were doing what, and who was entertaining the boys on the USO tour. Was probably something analagous in other countries as they reported on their own soldiers.
So my point here is not that these things happening in Iraq aren't an attrocity. They are as inhuman and perverse as you can get. But the plain fact is, historically speaking such things are common in war. We just don't see all of them all on TV or in the paper; many go unreported and eventually forgotten.
3) Which brings me to my next point: we seem to have forgotten that war itself is an attrocity. That is not to say that war is never warranted (the specifics of Iraq set aside for a moment), but that really, when you think about it... why is it less of a tragedy or attrocity when a civilian bystander gets his intestines strewn onto the street by a mortar, than it is for a civilian contractor to get be-headed?
Is it not an attrocity when a combatant gets his head blown off by a couple machine gun rounds, just because he's got a gun in his hand too? Is not horrific when soldiers sitting in a shelter somewhere get impaled by hundreds of shards of flying glass when a bomb drops on a nearby building? Less disturbing when a Captain gets his leg blown off by a land mine, because he's got double-bars on his shoulder? Does it matter what uniform you're wearing?
Thousands of disgusting and horrific things like this happen in every war, by definition. War is the systematic slaughtering of human beings, whether the reason is relatively just or not.
Don't try to logically separate the acts from the conflict. Whether sanctioned by recognizeable governing bodies or not, these kinds of things happen in every war. Israeli-Palestinian wars included (rockets, human bombs, bulldozers, etc). It would behoove us all never to forget it so the next time one is upon us, we have a full grasp of "what happens next".
Moogs, you are lucky that you did not watch the video. I wish I had listened and not done it. I can't get the images out of my mind. It is terrible. My first reaction is lets just nuke the whole damn region. Then I am reminded of the fact that two men in texas dragged a man behind a car not to long ago. I can't believe that people can be so brutal. What the hell possess people to do something like this? This whole Iraq thing has been a mess. I don't care what people thought about it before but can this, will this, get any better? I honestly think the region was better off with Sadam.
Originally posted by 709
Yup, and you'll get used to it. It's what Americans do best. Bombings/beheadings...what's the dif? Americans and Iraqis are dieing every f*cking day, every f*cking hour...I don't see what all the 'beheading' fuss is about honestly. Big deal. It's a quick way to die, thank god for that. At least they didn't rape him first.
That has got to be one of the stupidest post I have ever read. I haven't seen the video...but did that little knife seem like a good tool for cutting off a head? Having your head sawed off with little more than a butter knife, through tendon and bone, would not be a quick way to die.
Originally posted by bunge
This should be on the evening news. War is sick, and everyone should know it. Don't hide the coffins, don't hide the bodies, don't hide any of it.
The video isn't that bad. If you can't stomach it then I don't think you're experienced or mature enough to participate in political discussions here in AO.
You know bunge, usually your arguments sound reasoned and sane, but you are going a bit overboard with these. Yes, war is sick. The video is disgusting and horrible, I am sure, even the descriptions are unnerving. None of which would lead me to think it should be broadcast. If a woman you knew was brutally raped and murdered, let say you mother, would you want that aired on international TV as a teaching tool for people to see how horrible it is? That is an extreme and vile analogy, but it makes my point...something just shouldn't be put on public display, That doesn't mean hide that it happened, just that there is little value in promoting it like an episode of Friends.
Basically it explains, that both pictures of the Abuse of Iraqi prisonners and the beheading of the US guy was horrible, but that the two do not compare.
The goal of the pictures of abuse of Iraqi prisonners is to point out the dysfonctionnement of a system in order to fix it. (and that's what happens : trials in martial court are in the way).
The goal of the atrocious murder of the US guys is just to bring more hate. Hatefull pictures to create more hate.
Originally posted by segovius
Brilliant !
Or stupid.
very very troubling. frustrating. and sad.
Fellowship
Originally posted by Akumulator
I'm not going to watch it. I will gain nothing from it.
don't watch! the image will depress you and won't go away for a long long time.
Originally posted by Vox Barbara
don't watch! the image will depress you and won't go away for a long long time.
A member of another forum put it well
If you choose to watch this movie, know this:
1. It is real
2. It cannot be 'unseen'
I will not watch it.
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Wrong. As of late March/Early April, Iraqi citizens were roughly evenly divided in their support (and I'm sure that support has dropped even further since the prison torture photos were released)... LINK. Another more detailed link
I don't have time to dig up a link to disprove your other claim which I believe might be just as inaccurate, that we are fighting Al Qaeda backed terrorists in Iraq. Maybe you could find a link to back up that assertation?
Perhaps you should consider taking your own advice...
I saw an ABC poll on TV not too long ago that said that 7 out of 10 Iraqis said things overall were going well for them. I guess it all depends on what poll you want to cite. I checked your links and the overall data can be rather confusing and quite often the poll results conflict with each other. I think it is a confusing time for Iraqi citizens. Once we hand over power to the locals I would anticipate seeing an even more favorable attitude towards the United States because it will be a sign that a promise has been delivered and I think there will always be skeptics towards an occupying force until that actually happens.
As far as who the enemy we are fighting, the majority of the problem lies with the 20% of the population that is Sunni Arab. They are the ones who are resisting because they don't want to see the Kurds and the Shias in positions of power - they were used to control under Saddam's regime and are loath to take a back seat to anybody. We have had much more success in working with the Kurds and the Shias. And there clearly is a terrorist element that has come in from the outside and there is at least very strong circumstantial evidence that Al Qaeda or organizations closely aligned with them are behind many of the attacks that have occurred in Iraq. A lot of you may choose not to believe that but clearly a lot of people who know more about such things than you or I are pretty convinced that it would be in Al Qaeda's best interest to cause trouble for the U.S. in Iraq and many of the attacks over the last several months posess all the characteristics that Al Qaeda has become notorious for.
Originally posted by segovius
Sadr.
Shhhsh! That nasty little fact screws up the explanations for why the Iraqi don't like the occupation!