You know bunge, usually your arguments sound reasoned and sane, but you are going a bit overboard with these. Yes, war is sick. The video is disgusting and horrible, I am sure, even the descriptions are unnerving. None of which would lead me to think it should be broadcast. If a woman you knew was brutally raped and murdered, let say you mother, would you want that aired on international TV as a teaching tool for people to see how horrible it is? That is an extreme and vile analogy, but it makes my point...something just shouldn't be put on public display, That doesn't mean hide that it happened, just that there is little value in promoting it like an episode of Friends.
There's always a disclaimer. Don't look if you don't want to. No offense, but if you believe in hiding one piece, you've got to be prepared to have everything hidden. I'm not prepared for that.
(CNN) -- Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- are condemning the beheading of American Nicholas Berg by his Iraqi captors, shown in a video that appeared on an Islamist Web site.
The human experience is highly varied and different for everyone. It is my deepest wish for everyone to live in peace and prosperity, to have their days filled with picking out what to eat for dinner rather than concentrating on who to hate.
As offered earlier in this thread:
Quote:
Don't try to logically separate the acts from the conflict. Whether sanctioned by recognizeable governing bodies or not, these kinds of things happen in every war. Israeli-Palestinian wars included (rockets, human bombs, bulldozers, etc). It would behoove us all never to forget it so the next time one is upon us, we have a full grasp of "what happens next".
I don't think this can be stressed enough:
War is always horrible.
There are always massacres, torture, and rape.
I will forever remember this video.
Unfortuantely, it takes shocking footage like this to remind some people of just how bad war is. Thousands of inocent Iraqis have been killed. Yet it takes only one beheaded American for us to realize just how devestating the American invasion of Iraq is for many in the Middle East.
Interesting issues are arising. Let's get the al-Qaeda connection under the spotlight first as it seems to be the main leitmotif of the issue.
From a CNN transcript of a programme featuring comments by Octavia Nasr, CNN Senior editor of Arab affairs talking with CNN anchor Miles O'Brien:
So let's underline this - there are two links to al-Qaeda in the beheading meme:
1) Zarqawi and 2) The claim by the beheaders that they are al-Qaeda.
However, regardless of the suspicious timing and timeline of the Berg video, the putative al-Q link seemingly confirmed by the film actually does the opposite and calls it severely into question thus:
1) Zarqawi:
Is apparently dead.
Definitely had/has a false leg (which 'Zarqawi in the video apparently showed no evidence of).
Has a Jordanian accent (which 'Zarqawi in the video again shows no trace of).
2) Al-Qaeda
Are NOT mentioned in the 'statement' read on the Berg video.
ARE referenced in a US government report as being mentioned in the 'statement' read on the Berg video.
But as the aptly named O'Brien says in his closing remarks: we don't know exactly how that got in there.
Sounds about right.
I think that tis is very significant and needs to be seen . . .
It seems, unfortunately, that the Iraq/AQ excuse is still being perpetuated by the powers that be . . . . except that the seams are showing again!!!!
We are being lied to, RIGHT NOW . . . not just to get the war started . . . . 'al qued' the phrase in the video, DOES NOT MEAN the same thing as Al Queda!!!!!
yet our translation SAYS AL QUEDA!!! so that is a blatant lie through deliberate mistranslation!!
THe Zarqwi thing might be as well though it did seem to say that he was representing Zarqawi . . and wasn't himself Zarqawi . . . but, nonetheless, the spin wants us to think it is him . . . when it isn't.
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.
The reason we have been given for the beheading is "in retaliation for the prison torture/abuse of Iraqis". This also doesn't fit, because Berg's murder happened over two weeks ago, well before the first torture/abuse pictures were aired around the world.
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.
Where is everyone getting the two weeks from? Is there a good timeline description anywhere?
I think I remember hearing that too. But from what I can figure, they found his body on Sat., May 8, and told his family on Mon., May 10. We saw the video the next day.
He seems to have been let out of the Iraqi jail on April 6, and then missing again April 9.
Where is everyone getting the two weeks from? Is there a good timeline description anywhere?
Its a figure someone made up to push the debate toward another direction.
Reuters just posted this:
Quote:
PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - The father of Nick Berg, the Pennsylvania contractor beheaded in Iraq, on Thursday directly blamed President Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for his son's death.
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.
I think I remember hearing that too. But from what I can figure, they found his body on Sat., May 8, and told his family on Mon., May 10. We saw the video the next day.
He seems to have been let out of the Iraqi jail on April 6, and then missing again April 9.
someone in this thread mentioned the 2 weeks thing. i don't believe it though. US troops just found the body. i don't think these people would've kept the body for 2 weeks
There is NO WAY (imo) that they are stupid enough to release such a video (even if they did it exactly as it appears on the film) at this time when Iraqis have the 'moral ascendency' in terms of world opinion re Abu Ghraib.
I just can't see it.
I absolutely can. A political cause, a fundamentalist mind-set, a genuine grievance and a dangerous pyschopathology are a potent combination.
They don't care about 'sympathy' and the 'moral ascendency'. They want to rewrite the rules so that's it's OK to do awful things to people. This was A Statement to further The Great Cause. It wasn't necessarily for 'our' benefit at all.
Random thoughts...about this and everything happening in general...
Bullets, bombs or machetes...they all destroy. Humans have been destroying each other since the beginning of time. Before Christ/Allah/Buddha/placedeityhere and after them. Religion has given many insight to the faithful and a way of life that can be peaceful and unifying...to those of that faith. If one is not of that faith...then they are not part of their faith or let's say "humanity".
The term humanity has no more meaning...if it ever had.
The Imperial Japanese Army beheaded their enemies (as Samurais did before them). Raped and pillaged all that got in there way. And surprise attacked (debatable today) a nation many time larger and more powerful than themselves. We dropped two atomic bombs on them. Seems to have worked. They have been more or less a peaceful nation.
But is that what it takes? Bombs? Not love, trust, or understanding? Diplomacy?
Bullets, bombs or machetes...there is no difference to the destruction it does to the victim, the families, the people and the world. The person who welds these weapons has one emotion...hate. We hate Osama Bin Laden for what he has done to us. He hates us for what we have done to him. We seek him out with our own form of hatred, just as we have used this "hatred" of Saddam Hussain over his own hatred to his people...now most of the ME has become the core of hatred There doesn't seem to be anything now to stop this cancer...it's become terminal when angry, vengeful people display there hatred on video...and slaughtering a normal, innocent person or persons for anyone to see.
Though there are nice, happy, peaceful people all over the world...they seem to be the ones who have become the prey...for the angry, hateful, greedy, bullets, bombs & machetes wielders.
All I got. My sympathies to the families and victims of this hatred everywhere.
Let's forget the 2 weeks for now. Try this for size:
The date of the 'zarqawi' statement in the video is 11th May according to al Jazeera - a fact not disputed by any other reports and also cited by Drudge and others.
11th May was Tuesday.
According to this news report the military confrmed Berg's body was found on Saturday (ie the 8th):
The Saturday 8th date that the body was found seems most common though I have also seen Monday mentioned but can't find the link.
In any event, this is anomalous:
Was the Zarqawi date on the video wrong or the date the body was found ?
What about investigation ? If a headless body was found Saturday then wouldn't it have hit the news then ? I would have thought it would take a while to find out it was Berg's, remember there is no video till Tuesday - why the delay in announcing the find ?
That doesn't make sense, because we first saw the video on Tuesday the 11th, and the Berg family said they were notified on the 10th that the body had been found. Maybe the video was delivered on Tuesday, but it wasn't made on Tuesday.
There doesn't seem to me to be any problem with the timeline. He was kidnapped in early to mid April, the Abu Ghrain pictures came out at the end of April, and he was killed in early May. His body was found on the 8th, his family was informed on the 10th, and we saw the video on the 11th.
[edit]BTW, these news reports all reference a web site. Has anyone actually seen the link to this website?
[edit]BTW, these news reports all reference a web site. Has anyone actually seen the link to this website?
No. I saw the name of the website on a news report and looked for it for about ten minutes but I couldn't find anything close. I'd be interested to know where the people who posted links here found them.
(I've decided not to watch the video, incidentally, because I understand it's a film of a man getting his head chopped off.)
Comments
Originally posted by Tulkas
You know bunge, usually your arguments sound reasoned and sane, but you are going a bit overboard with these. Yes, war is sick. The video is disgusting and horrible, I am sure, even the descriptions are unnerving. None of which would lead me to think it should be broadcast. If a woman you knew was brutally raped and murdered, let say you mother, would you want that aired on international TV as a teaching tool for people to see how horrible it is? That is an extreme and vile analogy, but it makes my point...something just shouldn't be put on public display, That doesn't mean hide that it happened, just that there is little value in promoting it like an episode of Friends.
There's always a disclaimer. Don't look if you don't want to. No offense, but if you believe in hiding one piece, you've got to be prepared to have everything hidden. I'm not prepared for that.
-Kurt Vonnegut
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0512-13.htm
(CNN) -- Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- are condemning the beheading of American Nicholas Berg by his Iraqi captors, shown in a video that appeared on an Islamist Web site.
Three Arab states condemn American's beheading
The human experience is highly varied and different for everyone. It is my deepest wish for everyone to live in peace and prosperity, to have their days filled with picking out what to eat for dinner rather than concentrating on who to hate.
As offered earlier in this thread:
Don't try to logically separate the acts from the conflict. Whether sanctioned by recognizeable governing bodies or not, these kinds of things happen in every war. Israeli-Palestinian wars included (rockets, human bombs, bulldozers, etc). It would behoove us all never to forget it so the next time one is upon us, we have a full grasp of "what happens next".
I don't think this can be stressed enough:
War is always horrible.
There are always massacres, torture, and rape.
I will forever remember this video.
Unfortuantely, it takes shocking footage like this to remind some people of just how bad war is. Thousands of inocent Iraqis have been killed. Yet it takes only one beheaded American for us to realize just how devestating the American invasion of Iraq is for many in the Middle East.
Originally posted by segovius
Interesting issues are arising. Let's get the al-Qaeda connection under the spotlight first as it seems to be the main leitmotif of the issue.
From a CNN transcript of a programme featuring comments by Octavia Nasr, CNN Senior editor of Arab affairs talking with CNN anchor Miles O'Brien:
So let's underline this - there are two links to al-Qaeda in the beheading meme:
1) Zarqawi and 2) The claim by the beheaders that they are al-Qaeda.
However, regardless of the suspicious timing and timeline of the Berg video, the putative al-Q link seemingly confirmed by the film actually does the opposite and calls it severely into question thus:
1) Zarqawi:
Is apparently dead.
Definitely had/has a false leg (which 'Zarqawi in the video apparently showed no evidence of).
Has a Jordanian accent (which 'Zarqawi in the video again shows no trace of).
2) Al-Qaeda
Are NOT mentioned in the 'statement' read on the Berg video.
ARE referenced in a US government report as being mentioned in the 'statement' read on the Berg video.
But as the aptly named O'Brien says in his closing remarks: we don't know exactly how that got in there.
Sounds about right.
I think that tis is very significant and needs to be seen . . .
It seems, unfortunately, that the Iraq/AQ excuse is still being perpetuated by the powers that be . . . . except that the seams are showing again!!!!
We are being lied to, RIGHT NOW . . . not just to get the war started . . . . 'al qued' the phrase in the video, DOES NOT MEAN the same thing as Al Queda!!!!!
yet our translation SAYS AL QUEDA!!! so that is a blatant lie through deliberate mistranslation!!
THe Zarqwi thing might be as well though it did seem to say that he was representing Zarqawi . . and wasn't himself Zarqawi . . . but, nonetheless, the spin wants us to think it is him . . . when it isn't.
I dont need to be flamed.
Originally posted by MarcUK
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.
I dont need to be flamed.
You know what.....
....
....
....
The same thought crossed my mind.
Originally posted by giant
Where is everyone getting the two weeks from? Is there a good timeline description anywhere?
I think I remember hearing that too. But from what I can figure, they found his body on Sat., May 8, and told his family on Mon., May 10. We saw the video the next day.
He seems to have been let out of the Iraqi jail on April 6, and then missing again April 9.
Originally posted by giant
Where is everyone getting the two weeks from? Is there a good timeline description anywhere?
Its a figure someone made up to push the debate toward another direction.
Reuters just posted this:
PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - The father of Nick Berg, the Pennsylvania contractor beheaded in Iraq, on Thursday directly blamed President Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for his son's death.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5136519
Note the fact that that poor young man lost his life on Thursday.
Originally posted by MarcUK
I am going to stick my head on the line, and say that I believe there is a good chance that this whole video was staged as a desperate PR attempt to divert attention from our own misdoings in the Iraqi prisons, and focus our minds back on why we supposedly are there. I have yet to think of many good reasons why Al-Q would do this, but I can think of many reasons why such an evil, brutal video would benefit the coalittion.
I dont need to be flamed.
Originally posted by faust9
Its a figure someone made up to push the debate toward another direction.
Reuters just posted this:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5136519
Note the fact that that poor young man lost his life on Thursday.
i directly blamed Bush a day ago in a post
Originally posted by BRussell
I think I remember hearing that too. But from what I can figure, they found his body on Sat., May 8, and told his family on Mon., May 10. We saw the video the next day.
He seems to have been let out of the Iraqi jail on April 6, and then missing again April 9.
someone in this thread mentioned the 2 weeks thing. i don't believe it though. US troops just found the body. i don't think these people would've kept the body for 2 weeks
Originally posted by segovius
There is NO WAY (imo) that they are stupid enough to release such a video (even if they did it exactly as it appears on the film) at this time when Iraqis have the 'moral ascendency' in terms of world opinion re Abu Ghraib.
I just can't see it.
I absolutely can. A political cause, a fundamentalist mind-set, a genuine grievance and a dangerous pyschopathology are a potent combination.
They don't care about 'sympathy' and the 'moral ascendency'. They want to rewrite the rules so that's it's OK to do awful things to people. This was A Statement to further The Great Cause. It wasn't necessarily for 'our' benefit at all.
Bullets, bombs or machetes...they all destroy. Humans have been destroying each other since the beginning of time. Before Christ/Allah/Buddha/placedeityhere and after them. Religion has given many insight to the faithful and a way of life that can be peaceful and unifying...to those of that faith. If one is not of that faith...then they are not part of their faith or let's say "humanity".
The term humanity has no more meaning...if it ever had.
The Imperial Japanese Army beheaded their enemies (as Samurais did before them). Raped and pillaged all that got in there way. And surprise attacked (debatable today) a nation many time larger and more powerful than themselves. We dropped two atomic bombs on them. Seems to have worked. They have been more or less a peaceful nation.
But is that what it takes? Bombs? Not love, trust, or understanding? Diplomacy?
Bullets, bombs or machetes...there is no difference to the destruction it does to the victim, the families, the people and the world. The person who welds these weapons has one emotion...hate. We hate Osama Bin Laden for what he has done to us. He hates us for what we have done to him. We seek him out with our own form of hatred, just as we have used this "hatred" of Saddam Hussain over his own hatred to his people...now most of the ME has become the core of hatred There doesn't seem to be anything now to stop this cancer...it's become terminal when angry, vengeful people display there hatred on video...and slaughtering a normal, innocent person or persons for anyone to see.
Though there are nice, happy, peaceful people all over the world...they seem to be the ones who have become the prey...for the angry, hateful, greedy, bullets, bombs & machetes wielders.
All I got. My sympathies to the families and victims of this hatred everywhere.
Originally posted by trailmaster308
You know what.....
....
....
....
The same thought crossed my mind.
Perhaps proof that great minds DON'T think alike?
Originally posted by segovius
Let's forget the 2 weeks for now. Try this for size:
The date of the 'zarqawi' statement in the video is 11th May according to al Jazeera - a fact not disputed by any other reports and also cited by Drudge and others.
11th May was Tuesday.
According to this news report the military confrmed Berg's body was found on Saturday (ie the 8th):
The Saturday 8th date that the body was found seems most common though I have also seen Monday mentioned but can't find the link.
In any event, this is anomalous:
Was the Zarqawi date on the video wrong or the date the body was found ?
What about investigation ? If a headless body was found Saturday then wouldn't it have hit the news then ? I would have thought it would take a while to find out it was Berg's, remember there is no video till Tuesday - why the delay in announcing the find ?
That doesn't make sense, because we first saw the video on Tuesday the 11th, and the Berg family said they were notified on the 10th that the body had been found. Maybe the video was delivered on Tuesday, but it wasn't made on Tuesday.
There doesn't seem to me to be any problem with the timeline. He was kidnapped in early to mid April, the Abu Ghrain pictures came out at the end of April, and he was killed in early May. His body was found on the 8th, his family was informed on the 10th, and we saw the video on the 11th.
[edit]BTW, these news reports all reference a web site. Has anyone actually seen the link to this website?
Originally posted by BRussell
[edit]BTW, these news reports all reference a web site. Has anyone actually seen the link to this website?
No. I saw the name of the website on a news report and looked for it for about ten minutes but I couldn't find anything close. I'd be interested to know where the people who posted links here found them.
(I've decided not to watch the video, incidentally, because I understand it's a film of a man getting his head chopped off.)
Originally posted by 7E7
Perhaps proof that great minds DON'T think alike?
huh?
Maybe not true, but the thought did cross my mind.