Regarding the release of photos and/or video, I don't really know what the offical mechanism for release is either (even with general battle zone coverage). Presumeably there are journalists over there who can (and do)send pictures straight to their editor via satellite phone or internet, without the government getting their hands on them first.
I think though, that most journalists (particularly photo-journalists), for the sake of keeping good relations and contacts in the military ranks, probably do whatever is asked of them. So if the military is requesting to screen photos of battle zone areas for security reasons, they probably hand them over before sending them to their editor.
Personally, I think the military ought to have some say in where the photojournalists are allowed to go, but not the final word. If a General says "don't go over there; you'll get killed", the photojournalist (the good ones are notoriously ballsy) should have the right to say "hey, I'm going to risk it for the pictures of the front-line action".
Obviously if the military wants to keep people out of their offices or command posts (for example) they must be allowed to do that.
piwozniak, why are you hassling NaplesX. you should get banned for a while
Dude! why AREN'T you hassling NaplesX?!?!
Seriously though, this black&white interpretation that links any dislike of the Invasion of Iraq, a secular socialist (and Tyranical) country with support for AQ is completely misguided!!!
Al Quaida sang songs of joy the day we started to invade Iraq!!
We did exactly what they told the Muslim world that we would do: we 'invaded Islam'.
Now, unfortunately, Americans are doing exactly what they told the Muslim world we would do: we are 'humiliating' them and 'abusing' them.
This is most unfortunate.
I am aware that Al Qaida is a monstrous organization that needs to be irradicated.
But to voice displeasure at the fact that we seem to be doing everything BUT irradicating them (though we did well in Afghanistan until the Iraq fiasco) and seem to be making 'better posters' for their recruitment is in no way a form of support. . . . it is more a form of support to allow, uncritically, this class-of-clowns called the administration to continue mismanaging EVERYTHING that they touch.
I will also point out that it was a mere 36 days before the Iraq war that Osama Bin Laden released a statement calling Saddam Hussain a 'Secular infidel tyrant' . . .
After Berg's father indicated that he held the Bush admin responsible for the circumstances that led to his son's murder (in so far as Berg was detained without charge for two weeks and would have otherwise been out of Iraq) the military is now denying that Berg was held by US forces, stating that it was Iraqi police that detained him and that the reasons are unclear. The three FBI visits have been perported to be interviews to see why Berg was in Iraq.
General Mark Kimmitt, a military spokesperson, then said what struck me as a very odd thing to say about someone whose brutal murder was at the fore of many people's thoughts.
Quote:
"There may have been a lot of things that he was not, but he was still an American citizen"
I hope you guys that are siding with these people remember that video when you try to defend AQ and terrorists in general. This is what they do.
Dude, I am so sick of this crap. Please quote a post where ANYONE on these boards are defending AQ and / or terrorists. Disagreement with actions and policies of the government does NOT equate to defending terrorism.
Dude, I am so sick of this crap. Please quote a post where ANYONE on these boards are defending AQ and / or terrorists. Disagreement with actions and policies of the government does NOT equate to defending terrorism.
Tell that to them. Because they believe it is. I never said that one is equal to the other. i am simply suggesting that all of our comments should be examined as to not have that effect.
When a group of people openly and willingly downgrade a president and call him stupid ant traitorous and evil and uncivilized and just as bad as the terrorists that we are fighting, I think it helps their cause not ours.
Tell that to them. Because they believe it is. I never said that one is equal to the other. i am simply suggesting that all of our comments should be examined as to not have that effect.
When a group of people openly and willingly downgrade a president and call him stupid ant traitorous and evil and uncivilized and just as bad as the terrorists that we are fighting, I think it helps their cause not ours.
Before the invasion of Iraq, nothing would have given Bin Laden or Saddam H. greater pleasure than to have the other's head on a plate!
Our business of "payback" SHOULD have been completed as much as possible in Afghanistan before other actions were considered. This has not been done.
Right now, even with the most honorable of intentions, if you go to Iraq and you're not part of the military, anything goes, anything...
I was offered $300,000.00 to work for Titan in Iraq. I said no thanks. That's about 200,000 more than I make in a good year, but my family and friends dog-piled on me to not go.
When a group of people openly and willingly downgrade a president and call him stupid ant traitorous and evil and uncivilized and just as bad as the terrorists that we are fighting, I think it helps their cause not ours.
Surely it helps their cause more if we have a dumbshit president and nobody says anything?
while they televise their acts, we "civilized" cultures do it behind many closed doors, deep, hidden away from anyone and life is just peachy.
If you think that "our" governments or "our" citizens don't contain equally fvcked up elements like these, you live on Sesame Street or Mr. Roger's Neighborhood.
He was detained without the right to a phone call...
Also looks like he wasn't affiliated with any agencies doing work there.
What is this sh*t ?
He just went up there on his own as a "small business owner" to pitch some antennas?
This stinks, something is not right here.
Still it doesn't excuse them, i still think these people deserve to be shot, but i don't think they just captured first american they found on the street and executed him...
1) I refuse to watch the video; thanks to all who watched, regretted it and then passed on a warning. I almost did watch it but there's no way in hell I will do so now. Serves no purpose other than to give the be-headers (whoever they were) what they want: viewers. I won't do it.
They can stick their cause (whatever it is) right up their ass.
2) While the entertainment and news media are guilty of frequently showing the most disgusting / disturbing footage possible (whether war related or what's happening in your own state) -- almost always in an effort to get ratings -- you can't overlook the fact that we see a lot more of these types of events during wartime than we used to.
During World War II, especially in the Pacific theatre, the Japanese were known to do things equally or more disgusting than all of the things we've been talking about, to scores of their prisoners and/or civilians from "the other side". Torture, rape (or forced prostitution) and beheadings were common.
For that matter, nobody ever saw the skin melting off Japanese bomb victims on the evening news either. Nobody saw that until much later. Societal norms were different back then; people (in any country) were not comfortable with such things being aired to their families, even if they wanted to read about it elsewhere in some cases.
The coverage was always about "the front" and who was advancing where and which generals / admirals were doing what, and who was entertaining the boys on the USO tour. Was probably something analagous in other countries as they reported on their own soldiers.
So my point here is not that these things happening in Iraq aren't an attrocity. They are as inhuman and perverse as you can get. But the plain fact is, historically speaking such things are common in war. We just don't see all of them all on TV or in the paper; many go unreported and eventually forgotten.
3) Which brings me to my next point: we seem to have forgotten that war itself is an attrocity. That is not to say that war is never warranted (the specifics of Iraq set aside for a moment), but that really, when you think about it... why is it less of a tragedy or attrocity when a civilian bystander gets his intestines strewn onto the street by a mortar, than it is for a civilian contractor to get be-headed?
Is it not an attrocity when a combatant gets his head blown off by a couple machine gun rounds, just because he's got a gun in his hand too? Is not horrific when soldiers sitting in a shelter somewhere get impaled by hundreds of shards of flying glass when a bomb drops on a nearby building? Less disturbing when a Captain gets his leg blown off by a land mine, because he's got double-bars on his shoulder? Does it matter what uniform you're wearing?
Thousands of disgusting and horrific things like this happen in every war, by definition. War is the systematic slaughtering of human beings, whether the reason is relatively just or not.
Don't try to logically separate the acts from the conflict. Whether sanctioned by recognizeable governing bodies or not, these kinds of things happen in every war. Israeli-Palestinian wars included (rockets, human bombs, bulldozers, etc). It would behoove us all never to forget it so the next time one is upon us, we have a full grasp of "what happens next".
Thanks for this post, Moogs. It's one of the best I've ever read here.
According to insurgents Abu al-Zarqawi was killed during a US bombing raid. True or false? But wasn't that his voice on the beheading video? True of false? A number of prominent people seem to be both alive and dead simultaneously these days. Zarqawi, bin Laden, "Chemical" Ali, and....several of the 9-11 "hijackers".
Everything about this case stinks.
And...someone...please lets have the URL of that "al qaeda" affiliated group that all the media got that tape from?
If you're referring to before the US supported the tyrant Saddam as a secular bulwark against the facless islamic hordes of Iran, then yes, they did have it pretty good with a modern, prosperous, secular society that shamed their neighbours (Saudi, Kuwait) who excelled in inequality and middle-ages style religion.
If you mean after bombing the country and then letting it rot under ineffective and cruel UN sanctions for 12 years then no, not so good.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were killed before and after the first Gulf War. I doubt those people would have said that "they had it pretty good."
Heh. Are you really sure you want to argue that we'd be making better progress against the terrorists if it weren't for the terrorists?
Welcome to what happens when you invade another country.
Indeed. Seems like old times, doesn't it? The Baath party is coming back and the prisons are being used for torture, rape, and murders!
Do you really think the Iraqi people are the ones we are fighting over there? The people we are fighting against are Al Qaeda backed terrorists and others who share the same philosophy as all the other Islamic terrorist groups we are at war with. The vast majority of Iraqi citizens support us so don't make it out that we have no support over there and that we simply invaded a country that did not need to be liberated. Get your head out of your ass...
And don't make the actions of a few people represent the sum total of how our troops have conducted themselves since the war started. I don't appreciate those people like you who refuse to acknowledge that the vast majority of our troops have conducted themselves with courage and honor. Most of them were not involved in the acts committed in that prison and you know it. It is okay to be anti-war but don't lie about what is happening over there because you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were killed before and after the first Gulf War. I doubt those people would have said that "they had it pretty good."
I agree
especially the Shia who were told that we would support their uprising . . . . when they felt the boot land, alone and unheard.
Tell that to the tens of thousands who have died since the start of the war, a far higher number than those that would have died at Hussain's hands in that time period . . . and all the women who were schooled and treated near as equals . . . all the people who had work, all the people who were fed (except for under the sanctions) and had medical treatment available, all the people who were educated
Make no mistake, I think Hussain had to go!! . . . but one of the reasons that the Bush admin thought that democracy would take in that land was because of the civil infrastructure listed above . . . an infrastructure that no longer exists
and one that can only exist in a Capatalist country after years of development or through seriously socialistic minded input
Look at Russia: we tried the 'shock treatment' thinking that the institutions of civil society that we enjoy (*cough *ehem* health care) would grow over night . . . but they take years of development of intertwined social interests and intsitutions, years of pampering and coddling and minute growth . . .
We went in with sledge-hammers and expected a miracle transformation . . . but we should have seen what would happen and what will probably happen: decline in social standards of living and backsliding in terms of rights and freedoms then maybe ten or twenty years they might achieve the level of Iran
I think Hussain had to go!! but disregarding realities, nuanced realities may not fir into black&white land but they need to be taken into account if one is going to take on International Adventurism!
Wouldn't two public reports about prisoner abuses months before the photos saw the light of day be considered "peeps"?
As I said earlier, I remember distinctly a coupla cases where soldiers were arrested and tried for outrageous abuses: including smashing legs against concrete and breaking them . . . these were small stories because they were thought to be the work of four isolated soldiers . . . they were found guilty IIRC.
Comments
I think though, that most journalists (particularly photo-journalists), for the sake of keeping good relations and contacts in the military ranks, probably do whatever is asked of them. So if the military is requesting to screen photos of battle zone areas for security reasons, they probably hand them over before sending them to their editor.
Personally, I think the military ought to have some say in where the photojournalists are allowed to go, but not the final word. If a General says "don't go over there; you'll get killed", the photojournalist (the good ones are notoriously ballsy) should have the right to say "hey, I'm going to risk it for the pictures of the front-line action".
Obviously if the military wants to keep people out of their offices or command posts (for example) they must be allowed to do that.
Originally posted by burningwheel
didn't notice.
Randycat99, AQ supporters here? be real dude
piwozniak, why are you hassling NaplesX. you should get banned for a while
Dude! why AREN'T you hassling NaplesX?!?!
Seriously though, this black&white interpretation that links any dislike of the Invasion of Iraq, a secular socialist (and Tyranical) country with support for AQ is completely misguided!!!
Al Quaida sang songs of joy the day we started to invade Iraq!!
We did exactly what they told the Muslim world that we would do: we 'invaded Islam'.
Now, unfortunately, Americans are doing exactly what they told the Muslim world we would do: we are 'humiliating' them and 'abusing' them.
This is most unfortunate.
I am aware that Al Qaida is a monstrous organization that needs to be irradicated.
But to voice displeasure at the fact that we seem to be doing everything BUT irradicating them (though we did well in Afghanistan until the Iraq fiasco) and seem to be making 'better posters' for their recruitment is in no way a form of support. . . . it is more a form of support to allow, uncritically, this class-of-clowns called the administration to continue mismanaging EVERYTHING that they touch.
I will also point out that it was a mere 36 days before the Iraq war that Osama Bin Laden released a statement calling Saddam Hussain a 'Secular infidel tyrant' . . .
After Berg's father indicated that he held the Bush admin responsible for the circumstances that led to his son's murder (in so far as Berg was detained without charge for two weeks and would have otherwise been out of Iraq) the military is now denying that Berg was held by US forces, stating that it was Iraqi police that detained him and that the reasons are unclear. The three FBI visits have been perported to be interviews to see why Berg was in Iraq.
General Mark Kimmitt, a military spokesperson, then said what struck me as a very odd thing to say about someone whose brutal murder was at the fore of many people's thoughts.
"There may have been a lot of things that he was not, but he was still an American citizen"
I wonder what more there is to this story...
Originally posted by NaplesX
I hope you guys that are siding with these people remember that video when you try to defend AQ and terrorists in general. This is what they do.
Dude, I am so sick of this crap. Please quote a post where ANYONE on these boards are defending AQ and / or terrorists. Disagreement with actions and policies of the government does NOT equate to defending terrorism.
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Dude, I am so sick of this crap. Please quote a post where ANYONE on these boards are defending AQ and / or terrorists. Disagreement with actions and policies of the government does NOT equate to defending terrorism.
Tell that to them. Because they believe it is. I never said that one is equal to the other. i am simply suggesting that all of our comments should be examined as to not have that effect.
When a group of people openly and willingly downgrade a president and call him stupid ant traitorous and evil and uncivilized and just as bad as the terrorists that we are fighting, I think it helps their cause not ours.
IMO.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Tell that to them. Because they believe it is. I never said that one is equal to the other. i am simply suggesting that all of our comments should be examined as to not have that effect.
When a group of people openly and willingly downgrade a president and call him stupid ant traitorous and evil and uncivilized and just as bad as the terrorists that we are fighting, I think it helps their cause not ours.
IMO.
Tough shit.
Get a better President.
Our business of "payback" SHOULD have been completed as much as possible in Afghanistan before other actions were considered. This has not been done.
Right now, even with the most honorable of intentions, if you go to Iraq and you're not part of the military, anything goes, anything...
I was offered $300,000.00 to work for Titan in Iraq. I said no thanks. That's about 200,000 more than I make in a good year, but my family and friends dog-piled on me to not go.
Originally posted by burningwheel
didn't notice.
Randycat99, AQ supporters here? be real dude
piwozniak, why are you hassling NaplesX. you should get banned for a while
I did?
I said i didn't want to insult him, and kept my mouth shut...
Or are you referring to "stop with that AQ Bullsh*t" ?
That is Bullsh*t though...
so uhm.. any pointers greatly appreciated :-)
Originally posted by NaplesX
When a group of people openly and willingly downgrade a president and call him stupid ant traitorous and evil and uncivilized and just as bad as the terrorists that we are fighting, I think it helps their cause not ours.
Surely it helps their cause more if we have a dumbshit president and nobody says anything?
while they televise their acts, we "civilized" cultures do it behind many closed doors, deep, hidden away from anyone and life is just peachy.
If you think that "our" governments or "our" citizens don't contain equally fvcked up elements like these, you live on Sesame Street or Mr. Roger's Neighborhood.
Be shocked all you want.. but this crap ain't new
He was detained without the right to a phone call...
Also looks like he wasn't affiliated with any agencies doing work there.
What is this sh*t ?
He just went up there on his own as a "small business owner" to pitch some antennas?
This stinks, something is not right here.
Still it doesn't excuse them, i still think these people deserve to be shot, but i don't think they just captured first american they found on the street and executed him...
US authorities were offered to trade, but refused.
Why?
Because of "we don't deal with terrorists" policy?
Or maybe they knew what was brewing, and decided to turn their heads away, and use it as counter-balance ?
Originally posted by Moogs
A slightly different perspective:
1) I refuse to watch the video; thanks to all who watched, regretted it and then passed on a warning. I almost did watch it but there's no way in hell I will do so now. Serves no purpose other than to give the be-headers (whoever they were) what they want: viewers. I won't do it.
They can stick their cause (whatever it is) right up their ass.
2) While the entertainment and news media are guilty of frequently showing the most disgusting / disturbing footage possible (whether war related or what's happening in your own state) -- almost always in an effort to get ratings -- you can't overlook the fact that we see a lot more of these types of events during wartime than we used to.
During World War II, especially in the Pacific theatre, the Japanese were known to do things equally or more disgusting than all of the things we've been talking about, to scores of their prisoners and/or civilians from "the other side". Torture, rape (or forced prostitution) and beheadings were common.
For that matter, nobody ever saw the skin melting off Japanese bomb victims on the evening news either. Nobody saw that until much later. Societal norms were different back then; people (in any country) were not comfortable with such things being aired to their families, even if they wanted to read about it elsewhere in some cases.
The coverage was always about "the front" and who was advancing where and which generals / admirals were doing what, and who was entertaining the boys on the USO tour. Was probably something analagous in other countries as they reported on their own soldiers.
So my point here is not that these things happening in Iraq aren't an attrocity. They are as inhuman and perverse as you can get. But the plain fact is, historically speaking such things are common in war. We just don't see all of them all on TV or in the paper; many go unreported and eventually forgotten.
3) Which brings me to my next point: we seem to have forgotten that war itself is an attrocity. That is not to say that war is never warranted (the specifics of Iraq set aside for a moment), but that really, when you think about it... why is it less of a tragedy or attrocity when a civilian bystander gets his intestines strewn onto the street by a mortar, than it is for a civilian contractor to get be-headed?
Is it not an attrocity when a combatant gets his head blown off by a couple machine gun rounds, just because he's got a gun in his hand too? Is not horrific when soldiers sitting in a shelter somewhere get impaled by hundreds of shards of flying glass when a bomb drops on a nearby building? Less disturbing when a Captain gets his leg blown off by a land mine, because he's got double-bars on his shoulder? Does it matter what uniform you're wearing?
Thousands of disgusting and horrific things like this happen in every war, by definition. War is the systematic slaughtering of human beings, whether the reason is relatively just or not.
Don't try to logically separate the acts from the conflict. Whether sanctioned by recognizeable governing bodies or not, these kinds of things happen in every war. Israeli-Palestinian wars included (rockets, human bombs, bulldozers, etc). It would behoove us all never to forget it so the next time one is upon us, we have a full grasp of "what happens next".
Thanks for this post, Moogs. It's one of the best I've ever read here.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4446084/
According to insurgents Abu al-Zarqawi was killed during a US bombing raid. True or false? But wasn't that his voice on the beheading video? True of false? A number of prominent people seem to be both alive and dead simultaneously these days. Zarqawi, bin Laden, "Chemical" Ali, and....several of the 9-11 "hijackers".
Everything about this case stinks.
And...someone...please lets have the URL of that "al qaeda" affiliated group that all the media got that tape from?
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
If you're referring to before the US supported the tyrant Saddam as a secular bulwark against the facless islamic hordes of Iran, then yes, they did have it pretty good with a modern, prosperous, secular society that shamed their neighbours (Saudi, Kuwait) who excelled in inequality and middle-ages style religion.
If you mean after bombing the country and then letting it rot under ineffective and cruel UN sanctions for 12 years then no, not so good.
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were killed before and after the first Gulf War. I doubt those people would have said that "they had it pretty good."
Originally posted by midwinter
Huh?
Heh. Are you really sure you want to argue that we'd be making better progress against the terrorists if it weren't for the terrorists?
Welcome to what happens when you invade another country.
Indeed. Seems like old times, doesn't it? The Baath party is coming back and the prisons are being used for torture, rape, and murders!
Do you really think the Iraqi people are the ones we are fighting over there? The people we are fighting against are Al Qaeda backed terrorists and others who share the same philosophy as all the other Islamic terrorist groups we are at war with. The vast majority of Iraqi citizens support us so don't make it out that we have no support over there and that we simply invaded a country that did not need to be liberated. Get your head out of your ass...
And don't make the actions of a few people represent the sum total of how our troops have conducted themselves since the war started. I don't appreciate those people like you who refuse to acknowledge that the vast majority of our troops have conducted themselves with courage and honor. Most of them were not involved in the acts committed in that prison and you know it. It is okay to be anti-war but don't lie about what is happening over there because you haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Thuis stuff was going on for ONE YEAR before the 60 Minutes show....and not a peep from any government official.
Wouldn't two public reports about prisoner abuses months before the photos saw the light of day be considered "peeps"?
Originally posted by 7E7
Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were killed before and after the first Gulf War. I doubt those people would have said that "they had it pretty good."
I agree
especially the Shia who were told that we would support their uprising . . . . when they felt the boot land, alone and unheard.
Tell that to the tens of thousands who have died since the start of the war, a far higher number than those that would have died at Hussain's hands in that time period . . . and all the women who were schooled and treated near as equals . . . all the people who had work, all the people who were fed (except for under the sanctions) and had medical treatment available, all the people who were educated
Make no mistake, I think Hussain had to go!! . . . but one of the reasons that the Bush admin thought that democracy would take in that land was because of the civil infrastructure listed above . . . an infrastructure that no longer exists
and one that can only exist in a Capatalist country after years of development or through seriously socialistic minded input
Look at Russia: we tried the 'shock treatment' thinking that the institutions of civil society that we enjoy (*cough *ehem* health care) would grow over night . . . but they take years of development of intertwined social interests and intsitutions, years of pampering and coddling and minute growth . . .
We went in with sledge-hammers and expected a miracle transformation . . . but we should have seen what would happen and what will probably happen: decline in social standards of living and backsliding in terms of rights and freedoms then maybe ten or twenty years they might achieve the level of Iran
I think Hussain had to go!! but disregarding realities, nuanced realities may not fir into black&white land but they need to be taken into account if one is going to take on International Adventurism!
Originally posted by rageous
Wouldn't two public reports about prisoner abuses months before the photos saw the light of day be considered "peeps"?
As I said earlier, I remember distinctly a coupla cases where soldiers were arrested and tried for outrageous abuses: including smashing legs against concrete and breaking them . . . these were small stories because they were thought to be the work of four isolated soldiers . . . they were found guilty IIRC.
that is all...