Actually I meant weapons caches, etc., a deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare. (Like the Swiss.)
Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".
Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?
Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".
Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?
"Aum Shinrikyo is a Japanese religious cult obsessed with the apocalypse. The previously obscure group became infamous in 1995 when some of its members released deadly sarin nerve gas into the Tokyo subway system, killing 12 people and sending more than 5,000 others to hospitals. The attack came at the peak of the Monday morning rush hour in one of the busiest commuter systems in the world. Witnesses said that subway entrances resembled battlefields as injured commuters lay gasping on the ground with blood gushing from their noses or mouths."
Um. Can this be classified as a "civilian incident"?
This current report frightens me. Whether there was only one or two...could there still be more? And now that our Gomer Pyle Army just divulged WHAT they had PUBLICLY..."Praise ALLAH! WE have DIRTY BOMBS! ALLAH AKBAR!
Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".
Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?
The withdraw/blend into predetermined locations, use stashes of weapons to wear down the invasion force, having certain targets "zeroed", etc.
Imagnine a crack house/meth lab in D.C. getting six months notice on a bust. Same thing.
"Aum Shinrikyo is a Japanese religious cult obsessed with the apocalypse. The previously obscure group became infamous in 1995 when some of its members released deadly sarin nerve gas into the Tokyo subway system, killing 12 people and sending more than 5,000 others to hospitals. The attack came at the peak of the Monday morning rush hour in one of the busiest commuter systems in the world. Witnesses said that subway entrances resembled battlefields as injured commuters lay gasping on the ground with blood gushing from their noses or mouths."
Um. Can this be classified as a "civilian incident"?
This current report frightens me. Whether there was only one or two...could there still be more? And now that our Gomer Pyle Army just divulged WHAT they had PUBLICLY..."Praise ALLAH! WE have DIRTY BOMBS! ALLAH AKBAR!
/dontwanttothinkaboutit
That was exactly my point. AQ could easily get these weapons while we putz around in Iraq. We're praising this one find while the real bad guys roam Afghanistan hiring likeminded chemists to mix Serin or Ricin.
The withdraw/blend into predetermined locations, use stashes of weapons to wear down the invasion force, having certain targets "zeroed", etc.
Uhh, not quite. Saddam's ARMY was hardly that. What you're describing is guerrilla warfare. You have your terms confused. One more time: EVERYBODY "stashes" weapons. Much more convenient to do that than to "order" them as needed. Stashing, stockpiling, whatever you want to call it, is not a unique characteristic of assymetrical warfare.
Quote:
Imagnine a crack house/meth lab in D.C. getting six months notice on a bust. Same thing.
You're confused. First of all, this Iraqi "crack house" had DEA agents INSIDE it. Big difference.
One shell. You're preaching the praises of Bush and the glorious conquest based on one shell. One old shell. One old shell filled with sarin (maybe recall the other chemical finds to date). One shell filled with a neuro-toxin which most troops carry, or carried at one time, the antidote for. Yeah that's right, when there is a threat of chemical warefare the troops are issued pam-triple-K and atripine shots. One shell so old that the affected troops didn't even need on the spot treatment. One old shell and you're going to justify the war. Issues man issues.
We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense. \
We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense. \
Come now. We ALL KNOW Rummy "mispoke". Kind of like a freudian slip only he used completly incorrect misleading sentences to push an ideology when he really meant Iraq might have a shell or two left over from the 80's. Some peoples kids--I tell ya.
[edit] I actually mispoke the other day. I told my wife she needed to turn right at an intersection instead of the required left. She got lost. It didn't cost 100's of billions, 10,000+ civilian lives and almost 800 US troops their lives. My moment of unclarity wasn't predicated on half truths and outright deceptions (re: Colin Powell on meet the nation).
Actually a representative from the US military did it. But don't let the facts get in your way.
Edit: Fox ran a story about the buried warheads I meantioned earlier. And I specifically remember the headline being more like " WMDs FOUND?" And I also remember specifically them following the story all that day and updating the story as info came in and as soon as it was found to be a negative reading, they reported it. I also remember them saying repeatedly that it was a possible WMD find. Nice try, but not true, if that really matters here in AO.
You misunderstood me. When I said "Fox did it", I was referring to the way they worded their headline. I am aware that Fox didn't find the shell, just as I am aware that the military didn't write the story. And, by the way, people *do* tend to remember an initial headline more clearly than any retraction.
It should be remembered that the real question here is not whether Iraq ever posessed explosives capable of delivering nerve gas - they admitted to this in the 14000 page report to the UN claiming stockpiles were destroyed.
The questions are:
- was this shell produced after the official end of the nerve gas program?
- and/or was it deliberately hidden from UN inspectors or dug up from a dump site/forgotten in some arsenal which was subsequently looted?
I fail to see why Naples and some others are getting hysterical about this without knowing the answers to both questions - I would like to reserve my judgment until the full information is available.
Heck, even Donald "torture" Rumsfeld is more reluctant about this:
Quote:
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the findings of sarin were based on a field test, which can be imperfect, and more analysis needed to be done. "We have to be careful," he told an audience in Washington. Rumsfeld said it might take some time to determine precisely what the chemicals were.
But maybe some people are so depraved that they wish their enemies had WoMDs just to justify a botched war. If are you down the road to partisan politics this much, you don't need tangible proof any more, I guess.
It should be remembered that the real question here is not whether Iraq ever posessed explosives capable of delivering nerve gas - they admitted to this in the 14000 page report to the UN claiming stockpiles were destroyed.
The questions are:
- was this shell produced after the official end of the nerve gas program?
- and/or was it deliberately hidden from UN inspectors or dug up from a dump site/forgotten in some arsenal which was subsequently looted?
I fail to see why Naples and some others are getting hysterical about this without knowing the answers to both questions - I would like to reserve my judgment until the full information is available.
Heck, even Donald "torture" Rumsfeld is more reluctant about this:
But maybe some people are so depraved that they wish their enemies had WoMDs just to justify a botched war. If are you down the road to partisan politics this much, you don't need tangible proof any more, I guess.
Read my previous posts, hell read any post all the through, for goodness sake, I am not justifying anything by this one shell. I was one of the people that thought that this war was justified wether or not they found WMD. I was the guy that kept telling all of you, despite being called all kinds of names and accused of everything evil, to wait and see, that they would find ammo that was WMD related.
Now here is my prediction:
You will see more of these used because the people that made this bomb know where they got it and will go back for more.
The former top U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay, said it was possible the shell was an old relic overlooked when Saddam said he had destroyed such weapons in the mid-1990s.
Kay, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said he doubted the shell or the nerve agent came from a hidden stockpile, although he didn't rule out that possibility.
Former U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, speaking to the AP in Sweden, agreed the shell was likely a stray weapon scavenged from a dump and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles.
Which is what it all really comes down to. We have extensive documentation, good chunks of the regime in custody and the fact is that we now know that there is very, very little chance that Saddam was hiding stockpiles of weapons.
The only reason there is any discussion about this is because pro-war folks are desperately searching for any scrap of evidence that the position they fought for is actually valid.
Poor David kay. When he was hyping the WMD threat he was the right's darling.
We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense. \
I don't think you can separate SH from the "opposition"---or his plans to mitigate the invasion. IF he had WMD in any quantity he either did not hide/destroy/give it away or he did. He had quite some time to do this.
I watched Fog of War the other night, McNamarra went down to Cuba and talked to Castro---apparently they had nearly 10 times the number of missles that we thought they did during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Bad intel happens. I find it hard to believe there was absolutley no fire to go with all that smoke.
If Rummy did not really know where the WMD were in Iraq---then we are dealing with comic book villians who are running the country. I doubt it--CYA is a major political principle in politics; the idea of politicians, en masse, putting themselves into a corner is a non sequitur.
Also, I must insist that my corrupt politicians are better than your corrupt politicians.
Again (more succinctly): how come SH hasn't spilled the beans on where they are hidden ?
Let's make it easier with a multiple choice:
a) They haven't asked him about that
b) He has an incredible pain threshold which hasn't been broached yet
c) They asked him and he told them where they were
d) They asked him and they don't exist
And btw, all corrupt politicians are the same self-serving tossers wherever they sprout up. No better, no worse.
I don't think the WMD exists for some of giant's reasons---freshness dating---and the fact the any one with on firing synapse left would have "flushed the dope" before the party started. This business of the shell is probably a canard, but a FRIGGIN dangerous canard, all the same.
I still insist America has the best corrupt politicians that money can buy.
time to work---I just hope the insurgents haven't a bevy of beauties to IED.
Comments
Originally posted by dmz
Actually I meant weapons caches, etc., a deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare. (Like the Swiss.)
Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".
Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?
Originally posted by Gilsch
Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".
Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?
In makeshift holes in the ground?
Originally posted by faust9
Do you know of any civilian incidents involving Serin?
What is Aum Shinrikyo?
"Aum Shinrikyo is a Japanese religious cult obsessed with the apocalypse. The previously obscure group became infamous in 1995 when some of its members released deadly sarin nerve gas into the Tokyo subway system, killing 12 people and sending more than 5,000 others to hospitals. The attack came at the peak of the Monday morning rush hour in one of the busiest commuter systems in the world. Witnesses said that subway entrances resembled battlefields as injured commuters lay gasping on the ground with blood gushing from their noses or mouths."
Um. Can this be classified as a "civilian incident"?
This current report frightens me. Whether there was only one or two...could there still be more? And now that our Gomer Pyle Army just divulged WHAT they had PUBLICLY..."Praise ALLAH! WE have DIRTY BOMBS! ALLAH AKBAR!
/dontwanttothinkaboutit
Originally posted by Gilsch
Same thing. EVERYONE who faces an invasion or a military conflict stockpiles weapons, munitions. You stockpile them to use them, not for inventory purposes for the "enemy".
Care to elaborate on the "deliberate setup for assymetrical warfare"(Like the Swiss) part? What is your point?
The withdraw/blend into predetermined locations, use stashes of weapons to wear down the invasion force, having certain targets "zeroed", etc.
Imagnine a crack house/meth lab in D.C. getting six months notice on a bust. Same thing.
Originally posted by Artman @_@
What is Aum Shinrikyo?
"Aum Shinrikyo is a Japanese religious cult obsessed with the apocalypse. The previously obscure group became infamous in 1995 when some of its members released deadly sarin nerve gas into the Tokyo subway system, killing 12 people and sending more than 5,000 others to hospitals. The attack came at the peak of the Monday morning rush hour in one of the busiest commuter systems in the world. Witnesses said that subway entrances resembled battlefields as injured commuters lay gasping on the ground with blood gushing from their noses or mouths."
Um. Can this be classified as a "civilian incident"?
This current report frightens me. Whether there was only one or two...could there still be more? And now that our Gomer Pyle Army just divulged WHAT they had PUBLICLY..."Praise ALLAH! WE have DIRTY BOMBS! ALLAH AKBAR!
/dontwanttothinkaboutit
That was exactly my point. AQ could easily get these weapons while we putz around in Iraq. We're praising this one find while the real bad guys roam Afghanistan hiring likeminded chemists to mix Serin or Ricin.
[edit] I had this link on page one: http://cfrterrorism.org/weapons/sarin.html
it talks about the attack in Japan.
Originally posted by dmz
The withdraw/blend into predetermined locations, use stashes of weapons to wear down the invasion force, having certain targets "zeroed", etc.
Uhh, not quite. Saddam's ARMY was hardly that. What you're describing is guerrilla warfare. You have your terms confused. One more time: EVERYBODY "stashes" weapons. Much more convenient to do that than to "order" them as needed. Stashing, stockpiling, whatever you want to call it, is not a unique characteristic of assymetrical warfare.
Imagnine a crack house/meth lab in D.C. getting six months notice on a bust. Same thing.
You're confused. First of all, this Iraqi "crack house" had DEA agents INSIDE it. Big difference.
Originally posted by Gilsch
Uhh, not quite. Saddam's ARMY was hardly that. What you're describing is guerrilla warfare.
I'm pretty sure that is what we are seeing here.
Originally posted by faust9
One shell. You're preaching the praises of Bush and the glorious conquest based on one shell. One old shell. One old shell filled with sarin (maybe recall the other chemical finds to date). One shell filled with a neuro-toxin which most troops carry, or carried at one time, the antidote for. Yeah that's right, when there is a threat of chemical warefare the troops are issued pam-triple-K and atripine shots. One shell so old that the affected troops didn't even need on the spot treatment. One old shell and you're going to justify the war. Issues man issues.
Behold.... the Two Hundred Billion Dollar Shell!
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Behold.... the Two Hundred Billion Dollar Shell!
Should I laugh or over this?
Probably not.
Originally posted by faust9
Should I laugh or over this?
Laugh for a while. Then let it really sink in and have a good cry. Alternate as needed after that.
Originally posted by dmz
I'm pretty sure that is what we are seeing here.
We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense.
Originally posted by Gilsch
We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense.
Come now. We ALL KNOW Rummy "mispoke". Kind of like a freudian slip only he used completly incorrect misleading sentences to push an ideology when he really meant Iraq might have a shell or two left over from the 80's. Some peoples kids--I tell ya.
[edit] I actually mispoke the other day. I told my wife she needed to turn right at an intersection instead of the required left. She got lost. It didn't cost 100's of billions, 10,000+ civilian lives and almost 800 US troops their lives. My moment of unclarity wasn't predicated on half truths and outright deceptions (re: Colin Powell on meet the nation).
Originally posted by NaplesX
Actually a representative from the US military did it. But don't let the facts get in your way.
Edit: Fox ran a story about the buried warheads I meantioned earlier. And I specifically remember the headline being more like " WMDs FOUND?" And I also remember specifically them following the story all that day and updating the story as info came in and as soon as it was found to be a negative reading, they reported it. I also remember them saying repeatedly that it was a possible WMD find. Nice try, but not true, if that really matters here in AO.
You misunderstood me. When I said "Fox did it", I was referring to the way they worded their headline. I am aware that Fox didn't find the shell, just as I am aware that the military didn't write the story. And, by the way, people *do* tend to remember an initial headline more clearly than any retraction.
(!)
The questions are:
- was this shell produced after the official end of the nerve gas program?
- and/or was it deliberately hidden from UN inspectors or dug up from a dump site/forgotten in some arsenal which was subsequently looted?
I fail to see why Naples and some others are getting hysterical about this without knowing the answers to both questions - I would like to reserve my judgment until the full information is available.
Heck, even Donald "torture" Rumsfeld is more reluctant about this:
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the findings of sarin were based on a field test, which can be imperfect, and more analysis needed to be done. "We have to be careful," he told an audience in Washington. Rumsfeld said it might take some time to determine precisely what the chemicals were.
Link
But maybe some people are so depraved that they wish their enemies had WoMDs just to justify a botched war. If are you down the road to partisan politics this much, you don't need tangible proof any more, I guess.
Originally posted by Smircle
It should be remembered that the real question here is not whether Iraq ever posessed explosives capable of delivering nerve gas - they admitted to this in the 14000 page report to the UN claiming stockpiles were destroyed.
The questions are:
- was this shell produced after the official end of the nerve gas program?
- and/or was it deliberately hidden from UN inspectors or dug up from a dump site/forgotten in some arsenal which was subsequently looted?
I fail to see why Naples and some others are getting hysterical about this without knowing the answers to both questions - I would like to reserve my judgment until the full information is available.
Heck, even Donald "torture" Rumsfeld is more reluctant about this:
Link
But maybe some people are so depraved that they wish their enemies had WoMDs just to justify a botched war. If are you down the road to partisan politics this much, you don't need tangible proof any more, I guess.
Read my previous posts, hell read any post all the through, for goodness sake, I am not justifying anything by this one shell. I was one of the people that thought that this war was justified wether or not they found WMD. I was the guy that kept telling all of you, despite being called all kinds of names and accused of everything evil, to wait and see, that they would find ammo that was WMD related.
Now here is my prediction:
You will see more of these used because the people that made this bomb know where they got it and will go back for more.
Or:
They will burry it deeper to avoid the pr hit.
Either way it is there, waiting to be found.
Originally posted by NaplesX
No actually it is two. One with mustard that the army says it found and one now with sarin. Apparently sarin can last a long time in the binary form.
Oh I see. 'Apparently?' As in apparently this is the first time you've learned about this?
First, many of you said that the shelf life was too short for SH to store WMDs and now this find and it's "one old shell" Funny how the story changes.
Sure, naples, that's exactly what's going on. It's a good thing your background in special weapons enabled you to see this.
The former top U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, David Kay, said it was possible the shell was an old relic overlooked when Saddam said he had destroyed such weapons in the mid-1990s.
Kay, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said he doubted the shell or the nerve agent came from a hidden stockpile, although he didn't rule out that possibility.
Former U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, speaking to the AP in Sweden, agreed the shell was likely a stray weapon scavenged from a dump and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles.
Which is what it all really comes down to. We have extensive documentation, good chunks of the regime in custody and the fact is that we now know that there is very, very little chance that Saddam was hiding stockpiles of weapons.
The only reason there is any discussion about this is because pro-war folks are desperately searching for any scrap of evidence that the position they fought for is actually valid.
Poor David kay. When he was hyping the WMD threat he was the right's darling.
Originally posted by Gilsch
We weren't discussing the current tactics of the Iraqi "opposition". What we were discussing here was whether this incident is proof of the mountains of WMDs we were told existed in Iraq. The mountains of WMDs whose location we even knew according to our very own Secretary of Defense.
I don't think you can separate SH from the "opposition"---or his plans to mitigate the invasion. IF he had WMD in any quantity he either did not hide/destroy/give it away or he did. He had quite some time to do this.
I watched Fog of War the other night, McNamarra went down to Cuba and talked to Castro---apparently they had nearly 10 times the number of missles that we thought they did during the Cuban Missle Crisis. Bad intel happens. I find it hard to believe there was absolutley no fire to go with all that smoke.
If Rummy did not really know where the WMD were in Iraq---then we are dealing with comic book villians who are running the country. I doubt it--CYA is a major political principle in politics; the idea of politicians, en masse, putting themselves into a corner is a non sequitur.
Also, I must insist that my corrupt politicians are better than your corrupt politicians.
Originally posted by segovius
Again (more succinctly): how come SH hasn't spilled the beans on where they are hidden ?
Let's make it easier with a multiple choice:
a) They haven't asked him about that
b) He has an incredible pain threshold which hasn't been broached yet
c) They asked him and he told them where they were
d) They asked him and they don't exist
And btw, all corrupt politicians are the same self-serving tossers wherever they sprout up. No better, no worse.
I don't think the WMD exists for some of giant's reasons---freshness dating---and the fact the any one with on firing synapse left would have "flushed the dope" before the party started. This business of the shell is probably a canard, but a FRIGGIN dangerous canard, all the same.
I still insist America has the best corrupt politicians that money can buy.
time to work---I just hope the insurgents haven't a bevy of beauties to IED.