Randycat, FYI, My palestinian friends are excellent people. Their hospitality are only rivaled by my american friends. ;-)
All the more reason to indicate your neglect in giving them a home vs. moaning and whining until the Israel situation "works itself out". It's all empty words until you step up to the plate to put actions behind those words.
I don't know how you come about equating "adopt a family" with "ethnic cleansing". In bunge's logic, you might be a racist.
So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head.
Any reasonable parent would know that bringing them along to such an event is patently unsafe. Would you dress up your own infant in a mock suicide bomber outfit and then drop them off in the middle of an ensuing riot?
Quote:
And when people bring guns to an NRA rally in Colorado, or a political rally in Texas, are they valid targets as well?
I was unaware that NRA and political rallies in the US end up in a movement to charge police/security forces with guns brandished. Usually they are imobile and the activities are clearly notified and scheduled. OTOH, a roving mob with live firearms is never an ingredient for a positive outcome.
Quote:
You can try to justify things but they still don't make sense.
Neither do the absurd examples that are being brought up here, seemingly typified with missing specific contexts ("stealth bulldozers", for example). I'd almost have to say you are deliberately putting us on Onion style with these premises.
You've no problem with tanks firing 'warning shots,' with innocent people getting killed in multiples of innocent Israelis, with even the zoo getting trashed?
Is there anything that the IDF could do that worry you? Anything?
To level any criticism of Israel is so politically incorrect that officials don't dare do so in public. "Holocaust denier" or "anti-semitic" accusations have a similar stigma to being branded a pedophile, and that's what people are so afraid of that a balanced discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot happen.
Israel has all the ace cards, from unconditional US funding of their military (read terrorist) activities, possessing the worlds 4th largest stash of WMD, having wars fought for their benefit by the US, as well as being secure in the knowledge that they are immune to criticism because of what happened 60 years ago.
Quote:
A BREAKDOWN OF UNITED STATES AID TO ISRAEL
Financial Aid
The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel?s population comprises just .001% of the world?s population and has one the world?s higher per capita incomes.
*\t
Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 ? making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5
*\t
The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.
*\t
Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6
*\t
Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven ? leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan ? with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.
*\t
In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.
Military Aid
The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel ? totalling more than it gives to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000.
According to a US Department of Defence Joint Report to Congress in March 2001, ?It is in the United States? national interest to promote the existence of a stable, democratic and militarily strong Israel, at peace with its neighbours [?]?.7 According to a US State Department statement in November 2002, the US government is committed to ?maintaining and enhancing Israel?s security and qualitative edge over any combination of adversaries? and ?the important advantages the US-Israeli strategic relationship has and will continue to provide us.?8
*\t
Foreign Military Financing (FMF) is grants to foreign governments financing the purchase of American-made weapons, services and training. Israel receives 50% of the FMF budget request. The large sums paid by the US to Egypt and Jordan are in recognition of the two countries signing peace accords with Israel in 1979 and 1994 respectively.
The Economic Support Fund (ESF) promotes economic and political stability in areas strategically important to the US. It is not intended for military usage, but allows the recipient government to free up other money, therefore providing indirect military aid. Israel receives the largest single grant of the Near East budget, which alone is 79% of the total ESF request.
ESF Budget Request, FY 2001t
_Total budget requestt
_$2.313 billion
_\t
Budget request for Near Eastt
_$1.828 billion, including:
\t
Israel\t
_$840 million
_\t
Egypt\t
_$150 million
_\t
WB/GS\t
$100 million
Furthermore:
*\t
18 of the 92 pending arms sales transfers in the year 2000 were to Israel;
*\t
Israel has the world?s largest fleet of F-16s outside the US, currently possessing 200 jets -- with a further 102 on order with American manufacturer Lockheed Martin;
*\t
In June 2001 Israel again requested $800 million in supplementary US aid. This was originally pledged to cover the cost of the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon ? in other words, Israel was being paid for complying with international law. As Israel re-requests this package, administration officials have considered linking it to the implementation of the Mitchell Report, again effectively paying Israel to comply with international standards;9
Charitable Aid
Private donations to American charities initially constituted one quarter of Israel?s budget. Today, it is estimated that these tax-deductible donations exceed $1.5 billion per year. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax deductible contributions to a foreign government does not exist for any other country.
US aid to Israel: A violation of US law
US law prohibits the President from providing military aid to any country that ?engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognised human rights?.10 Under the 1967 US Arms Export Control Act, it is illegal to use US weapons to carry out extra-judicial killings. This act stipulates that weapons be sold to ?friendly countries solely for internal security and legitimate defence.?
*\t
Since September 2000, the Israeli army has used attack helicopters, tanks and F-16 missiles to target Palestinian civilians, homes, forces, buildings and in demonstrations. In its Human Rights Report, the US State Department declared that Israeli army actions were an ?excessive use of force?, noting that the Israeli forces used live ammunition, even when they were not in imminent danger, and that the Israeli military ?shelled PA institutions and Palestinian civilian areas in response to individual Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians or settlers?.
*\t
The Israeli government?s policies in the occupied Palestinian territories have been condemned by human rights organisations worldwide. The Israeli army?s ?excessive use of force? towards Palestinian civilians and its policy of ?state assassinations? violate international human rights law. In supplying military aid to such a state, the US is violating its own laws.
_
1 CIA World Factbook, July 2001
2 Zunes, Stephen, ?The Strategic Function of US Aid to Israel? (Washington Report on the Middle East December 2002)
3 ibid.
4 Washington Report on the Middle East December 2002
5 Ibid, as of 1 November 1997.
6 Ibid.
7 Foreign Military Training and DOD engagements, Activities of Interest, vol. 1, (fiscal year 1999-2000), Joint Report to Congress, March 1, 2001. Full text available through Federation of American Scientists? website
8 ?US promises Israel $2.16 billion military aid 2004,? Reuters, 21 November 2002
9 The Jerusalem Post, 28/6/01
10 22 USC 2304(a)
Why does America give this degree of aid to what is now a rogue nation with a war criminal as its leader, while we are supposed to be fighting a war against terrorism?
The Palestinians they are fighting aren't terrorists now? Isn't that one-sided. You, yourself, are guilty of what you accuse others of here. Welcome to the group.
You've no problem with tanks firing 'warning shots,' with innocent people getting killed in multiples of innocent Israelis, with even the zoo getting trashed?
Is there anything that the IDF could do that worry you? Anything?
When did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth. So YOU must have no problem with people parading around with bags full of dead Jew body parts. You're a sick-o.
To level any criticism of Israel is so politically incorrect that officials don't dare do so in public. "Holocaust denier" or "anti-semitic" accusations have a similar stigma to being branded a pedophile, and that's what people are so afraid of that a balanced discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot happen.
Israel has all the ace cards, from unconditional US funding of their military (read terrorist) activities, possessing the worlds 4th largest stash of WMD, having wars fought for their benefit by the US, as well as being secure in the knowledge that they are immune to criticism because of what happened 60 years ago.
Why does America give this degree of aid to what is now a rogue nation with a war criminal as its leader, while we are supposed to be fighting a war against terrorism?
Hey SJO be fail and balanced and give us the details on the aid the US gives the Palestinians.
For the first time in the history of U.S.-Palestinian relationship, the U.S. has directly given the Palestinian Authority chaired by Yassar Arafat, over $20 million on July 16, 2004. This is part of multi-million dollar package of aid to Palestinian communities to be used for repairing and maintaining roads, public buildings, and power, water and sewage lines damaged in years of fighting with Israel.
$20 million by July 16, 2004. Wow! Naturally, a token gesture is far better PR than nothing, and there is plenty of reference to this deal in the media. What will $20 million buy? Just for perspective one F-15 fighter costs $55 million. But make no mistake, most US 'aid' to Palestine is delivered by Israeli jets and helicopters. Destroy those villages to save them.
There is a strange typo later in the second link, where the national security adviser is referred to as MR Rice....
Any reasonable parent would know that bringing them along to such an event is patently unsafe. Would you dress up your own infant in a mock suicide bomber outfit and then drop them off in the middle of an ensuing riot?
Tulkas wasn't talking about the march where people were blown to bits by helicopter missles and tank rounds. Your analogy doesn't work at all so please try again or admit you were wrong.
I was unaware that NRA and political rallies in the US end up in a movement to charge police/security forces with guns brandished. Usually they are imobile and the activities are clearly notified and scheduled. OTOH, a roving mob with live firearms is never an ingredient for a positive outcome.
Show some proof that this rally we're discussing ended up with a movement charging police/security forces with guns brandished. Make sure that this proof includes proof that the territory discussed was under Israeli control rather than Palestinian control. Also make sure you can prove this was a roving mob with live firearms. Can you give any support, not even proof, that this was the case? And can you support the idea that people should not and are not able to peaceably assemble? Does brandishing a gun mean you're not peaceable assembling? How many people at an NRA rally carry guns?
Neither do the absurd examples that are being brought up here, seemingly typified with missing specific contexts ("stealth bulldozers", for example). I'd almost have to say you are deliberately putting us on Onion style with these premises.
I haven't mentioned 'stealth bulldozers' so don't create a straw man argument. Attack my ideas, not those that agree with me. I've laid out two very simple but very strong arguments. I don't think you'll be able to counter either. If you can't honestly do that, then please retract your earlier statements.
Yes, as soon as these sorts of arguments aren't coming from SJO's keyboard, you are all about crying, "foul".
The response to your statements is simple. Prove that the rally was not. You are welcome to retract your statements, as well. Shouldn't you be busy reinterpreting people's ideas and summarily calling them racist (since they are not in agreement with your own ideas)?
Europe condemns the suicide bombings but you choose to ignore it. If you acknowledge it, your argument is completely false so instead you pretend. Your fantasy about the region doesn't jive with reality.
Condemns it and does nothing. Europe would have been content condemning the holocaust and Rowanda...hollow words.
So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head.
where did you get that from? SJO said the media ignores the Palestian children. I simply answered with the fact that part of the reason is that Arafat requested the western media not shown armed children, and the obliged. You righteous idignation is a bit over blown.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
And when people bring guns to an NRA rally in Colorado, or a political rally in Texas, are they valid targets as well?
No. But, people who purposely place their children in harms way must take some of the blame if they are harmed.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
You can try to justify things but they still don't make sense. Even if someone, or many people, in that rally were carrying guns you can't simply kill them. They're on their own land, in a legal gathering, not attacking anyone. You can't kill people for that. And if for some reason they started shooting, you still can't kill them with tank rounds and missles. No matter how much you want to do that, it's illegal. It's no better than Dachau.
You are correct. I beleive they did not mean to fire into the crowd, but into an open field and an abandoned building as warning shots. But, of course, I am a naive, blind supporter or Israel, and they must actually be lying.
They are acting as any other government would? Bull. Any other government that shot civilians with missiles from attack helicopters,
The entire country is a war zone. Every other country that ever engaged in a war inflicted civilian casualties. The results will be higher in war zones where the militants hide and are suported by the civilian population.
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
bulldozed homes that were legally owned property, erected barriers on public land to "keep out" unwanted ethnicities would be internationally condemned (except the US of course).
The homes that are targetted are targetted with reason. Usually, they are owned by families of bombers. The barrier has nothing to do with stopping unwanted ethnicities. It stops murderous suicide bombers of all races.
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
The Israeli government and Hamas are both terrorist organizations.
I've never seen so many racists in my life. They clearly think that the [Arabs] are better than the [Jews], even though both sides keep killing eachother. When the [Jews] kill innocent [arabs], they are outraged, but when the [arabs] kill innocent [jews] Palestinians are just "freedom fighters".
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
Now as far as who started this freaking war... Israel stole their land. STOLE IT.
Overly vague...when?
Now as far as who stared this freaking war...Arabs stole their land. STOLE IT. Oh, they also tried to ethnically cleanse the area. An accusation often thrown at Israel too..of course if that were true, and they put as much effort into it as the Arabs did, their wouldn't be a war right now..just an Israel.
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
And then you say "but the negotiations" (whine whine whine). I say again. Let's say Israel stole California from YOU and after decades of negotiation finally told you you could have the Mojave desert but only if you agree to drop any further claim for more territory. Let's say Israel decided to bulldoze your HOME at 4 in the morning. Like you wouldn't be pissed and try any means necessary to stop the bulldozers...
Well, what if the Native Americans stole California. Would the aboriginal people of the area be accused of stealing it, especially if the UN approved, no created, the conditions for the transfer of the land to the Natives?
The response to your statements is simple. Prove that the rally was not.
Asking someone to prove a negative is fatally flawed, logically....as good as meaningless. In criminal court cases (in democracies), the onus is on the prosecution to prove guilt, rather than on the defendant to prove innocence, and for good reason. For the same reason, asking S.H. to prove that he had no WMD was an impossible request, whether he did, or didn't.
Well, that explains how easily SH lead you by the nose. The more practical and functionality-minded among us know that such evidence can be offered via unobstructed inspections and proper/comprehensive documentation- "everything" accounted for and inventoried. Political waffling to "save face" in lieu of full disclosure is just not going to cut it here.
Comments
Originally posted by Artman @_@
A photojournalist at the march...no, wait...I photoshopped it. The whole damn situation in the Middle East was photoshopped. Didn't you know that?
Find it yourself.
You can start here...but be warned the images are graphic.
I still can't find that picture. Please, show me your source Artman.
'cause it's not hard to find disturbing pictures.
link
Originally posted by New
Randycat, FYI, My palestinian friends are excellent people. Their hospitality are only rivaled by my american friends. ;-)
All the more reason to indicate your neglect in giving them a home vs. moaning and whining until the Israel situation "works itself out". It's all empty words until you step up to the plate to put actions behind those words.
I don't know how you come about equating "adopt a family" with "ethnic cleansing". In bunge's logic, you might be a racist.
Originally posted by bunge
So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head.
Any reasonable parent would know that bringing them along to such an event is patently unsafe. Would you dress up your own infant in a mock suicide bomber outfit and then drop them off in the middle of an ensuing riot?
Quote:
And when people bring guns to an NRA rally in Colorado, or a political rally in Texas, are they valid targets as well?
I was unaware that NRA and political rallies in the US end up in a movement to charge police/security forces with guns brandished. Usually they are imobile and the activities are clearly notified and scheduled. OTOH, a roving mob with live firearms is never an ingredient for a positive outcome.
Quote:
You can try to justify things but they still don't make sense.
Neither do the absurd examples that are being brought up here, seemingly typified with missing specific contexts ("stealth bulldozers", for example).
Originally posted by New
I still can't find that picture. Please, show me your source Artman.
I don't think you get the "gag".
Originally posted by Harald
Let's just break this down.
You've no problem with tanks firing 'warning shots,' with innocent people getting killed in multiples of innocent Israelis, with even the zoo getting trashed?
Is there anything that the IDF could do that worry you? Anything?
To level any criticism of Israel is so politically incorrect that officials don't dare do so in public. "Holocaust denier" or "anti-semitic" accusations have a similar stigma to being branded a pedophile, and that's what people are so afraid of that a balanced discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot happen.
Israel has all the ace cards, from unconditional US funding of their military (read terrorist) activities, possessing the worlds 4th largest stash of WMD, having wars fought for their benefit by the US, as well as being secure in the knowledge that they are immune to criticism because of what happened 60 years ago.
A BREAKDOWN OF UNITED STATES AID TO ISRAEL
Financial Aid
The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world, receiving over one-third of total US aid to foreign countries4, even though Israel?s population comprises just .001% of the world?s population and has one the world?s higher per capita incomes.
*\t
Since 1949 the US has given Israel a total of $84,854,827,200. The interest costs born by US taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49,937,000,000 ? making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $134,791,507,200 (more than $134 billion).5
*\t
The total cost of this financial aid to US tax payers per Israeli is $23,240.
*\t
Since 1992, the US has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year.6
*\t
Nearly all past loans to Israel have been forgiven ? leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan ? with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them.
*\t
In 1997 alone, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion, i.e., $15,068,493 per day.
Military Aid
The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel ? totalling more than it gives to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000.
According to a US Department of Defence Joint Report to Congress in March 2001, ?It is in the United States? national interest to promote the existence of a stable, democratic and militarily strong Israel, at peace with its neighbours [?]?.7 According to a US State Department statement in November 2002, the US government is committed to ?maintaining and enhancing Israel?s security and qualitative edge over any combination of adversaries? and ?the important advantages the US-Israeli strategic relationship has and will continue to provide us.?8
*\t
Foreign Military Financing (FMF) is grants to foreign governments financing the purchase of American-made weapons, services and training. Israel receives 50% of the FMF budget request. The large sums paid by the US to Egypt and Jordan are in recognition of the two countries signing peace accords with Israel in 1979 and 1994 respectively.
FMF Budget Request FY 2001
_\tBudget request for Israel
_\tBudget request for Egypt
_\tBudget request for Jordan\t$75 million
*\t
The Economic Support Fund (ESF) promotes economic and political stability in areas strategically important to the US. It is not intended for military usage, but allows the recipient government to free up other money, therefore providing indirect military aid. Israel receives the largest single grant of the Near East budget, which alone is 79% of the total ESF request.
ESF Budget Request, FY 2001
_Total budget request
_$2.313 billion
_\t
Budget request for Near East
_$1.828 billion, including:
\t
Israel\t
_$840 million
_\t
Egypt\t
_$150 million
_\t
WB/GS\t
$100 million
Furthermore:
*\t
18 of the 92 pending arms sales transfers in the year 2000 were to Israel;
*\t
Israel has the world?s largest fleet of F-16s outside the US, currently possessing 200 jets -- with a further 102 on order with American manufacturer Lockheed Martin;
*\t
In June 2001 Israel again requested $800 million in supplementary US aid. This was originally pledged to cover the cost of the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon ? in other words, Israel was being paid for complying with international law. As Israel re-requests this package, administration officials have considered linking it to the implementation of the Mitchell Report, again effectively paying Israel to comply with international standards;9
Charitable Aid
Private donations to American charities initially constituted one quarter of Israel?s budget. Today, it is estimated that these tax-deductible donations exceed $1.5 billion per year. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax deductible contributions to a foreign government does not exist for any other country.
US aid to Israel: A violation of US law
US law prohibits the President from providing military aid to any country that ?engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognised human rights?.10 Under the 1967 US Arms Export Control Act, it is illegal to use US weapons to carry out extra-judicial killings. This act stipulates that weapons be sold to ?friendly countries solely for internal security and legitimate defence.?
*\t
Since September 2000, the Israeli army has used attack helicopters, tanks and F-16 missiles to target Palestinian civilians, homes, forces, buildings and in demonstrations. In its Human Rights Report, the US State Department declared that Israeli army actions were an ?excessive use of force?, noting that the Israeli forces used live ammunition, even when they were not in imminent danger, and that the Israeli military ?shelled PA institutions and Palestinian civilian areas in response to individual Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians or settlers?.
*\t
The Israeli government?s policies in the occupied Palestinian territories have been condemned by human rights organisations worldwide. The Israeli army?s ?excessive use of force? towards Palestinian civilians and its policy of ?state assassinations? violate international human rights law. In supplying military aid to such a state, the US is violating its own laws.
_
1 CIA World Factbook, July 2001
2 Zunes, Stephen, ?The Strategic Function of US Aid to Israel? (Washington Report on the Middle East December 2002)
3 ibid.
4 Washington Report on the Middle East December 2002
5 Ibid, as of 1 November 1997.
6 Ibid.
7 Foreign Military Training and DOD engagements, Activities of Interest, vol. 1, (fiscal year 1999-2000), Joint Report to Congress, March 1, 2001. Full text available through Federation of American Scientists? website
8 ?US promises Israel $2.16 billion military aid 2004,? Reuters, 21 November 2002
9 The Jerusalem Post, 28/6/01
10 22 USC 2304(a)
Why does America give this degree of aid to what is now a rogue nation with a war criminal as its leader, while we are supposed to be fighting a war against terrorism?
Israeli army helicopter kills at least 20 protestors with missiles...
So what were the protestors doing with those missles?
Originally posted by Harald
Let's just break this down.
You've no problem with tanks firing 'warning shots,' with innocent people getting killed in multiples of innocent Israelis, with even the zoo getting trashed?
Is there anything that the IDF could do that worry you? Anything?
When did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth. So YOU must have no problem with people parading around with bags full of dead Jew body parts. You're a sick-o.
Originally posted by sammi jo
To level any criticism of Israel is so politically incorrect that officials don't dare do so in public. "Holocaust denier" or "anti-semitic" accusations have a similar stigma to being branded a pedophile, and that's what people are so afraid of that a balanced discussion of the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot happen.
Israel has all the ace cards, from unconditional US funding of their military (read terrorist) activities, possessing the worlds 4th largest stash of WMD, having wars fought for their benefit by the US, as well as being secure in the knowledge that they are immune to criticism because of what happened 60 years ago.
Why does America give this degree of aid to what is now a rogue nation with a war criminal as its leader, while we are supposed to be fighting a war against terrorism?
Hey SJO be fail and balanced and give us the details on the aid the US gives the Palestinians.
Originally posted by Scott
Hey SJO be fail and balanced and give us the details on the aid the US gives the Palestinians.
http://usinfo.state.gov/mena/Archive...27-646362.html
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/3-20-2004-51932.asp
For the first time in the history of U.S.-Palestinian relationship, the U.S. has directly given the Palestinian Authority chaired by Yassar Arafat, over $20 million on July 16, 2004. This is part of multi-million dollar package of aid to Palestinian communities to be used for repairing and maintaining roads, public buildings, and power, water and sewage lines damaged in years of fighting with Israel.
$20 million by July 16, 2004. Wow! Naturally, a token gesture is far better PR than nothing, and there is plenty of reference to this deal in the media. What will $20 million buy? Just for perspective one F-15 fighter costs $55 million. But make no mistake, most US 'aid' to Palestine is delivered by Israeli jets and helicopters. Destroy those villages to save them.
There is a strange typo later in the second link, where the national security adviser is referred to as MR Rice....
Originally posted by Randycat99
Any reasonable parent would know that bringing them along to such an event is patently unsafe. Would you dress up your own infant in a mock suicide bomber outfit and then drop them off in the middle of an ensuing riot?
Tulkas wasn't talking about the march where people were blown to bits by helicopter missles and tank rounds. Your analogy doesn't work at all so please try again or admit you were wrong.
Originally posted by Randycat99
I was unaware that NRA and political rallies in the US end up in a movement to charge police/security forces with guns brandished. Usually they are imobile and the activities are clearly notified and scheduled. OTOH, a roving mob with live firearms is never an ingredient for a positive outcome.
Show some proof that this rally we're discussing ended up with a movement charging police/security forces with guns brandished. Make sure that this proof includes proof that the territory discussed was under Israeli control rather than Palestinian control. Also make sure you can prove this was a roving mob with live firearms. Can you give any support, not even proof, that this was the case? And can you support the idea that people should not and are not able to peaceably assemble? Does brandishing a gun mean you're not peaceable assembling? How many people at an NRA rally carry guns?
Originally posted by Randycat99
Neither do the absurd examples that are being brought up here, seemingly typified with missing specific contexts ("stealth bulldozers", for example).
I haven't mentioned 'stealth bulldozers' so don't create a straw man argument. Attack my ideas, not those that agree with me. I've laid out two very simple but very strong arguments. I don't think you'll be able to counter either. If you can't honestly do that, then please retract your earlier statements.
The response to your statements is simple. Prove that the rally was not. You are welcome to retract your statements, as well. Shouldn't you be busy reinterpreting people's ideas and summarily calling them racist (since they are not in agreement with your own ideas)?
Originally posted by bunge
Yes!
Europe condemns the suicide bombings but you choose to ignore it. If you acknowledge it, your argument is completely false so instead you pretend. Your fantasy about the region doesn't jive with reality.
Condemns it and does nothing. Europe would have been content condemning the holocaust and Rowanda...hollow words.
Originally posted by bunge
So you consider a one year old 'involved' and complicit in the intifada? When their parents dresses them up, you consider them a valid target? That's sick in the head.
where did you get that from? SJO said the media ignores the Palestian children. I simply answered with the fact that part of the reason is that Arafat requested the western media not shown armed children, and the obliged. You righteous idignation is a bit over blown.
Originally posted by bunge
And when people bring guns to an NRA rally in Colorado, or a political rally in Texas, are they valid targets as well?
No. But, people who purposely place their children in harms way must take some of the blame if they are harmed.
Originally posted by bunge
You can try to justify things but they still don't make sense. Even if someone, or many people, in that rally were carrying guns you can't simply kill them. They're on their own land, in a legal gathering, not attacking anyone. You can't kill people for that. And if for some reason they started shooting, you still can't kill them with tank rounds and missles. No matter how much you want to do that, it's illegal. It's no better than Dachau.
You are correct. I beleive they did not mean to fire into the crowd, but into an open field and an abandoned building as warning shots. But, of course, I am a naive, blind supporter or Israel, and they must actually be lying.
Originally posted by tonton
Sorry, I meant "Israeli" government.
np. We'll just assume it was a freudian slip.
Originally posted by tonton
They are acting as any other government would? Bull. Any other government that shot civilians with missiles from attack helicopters,
The entire country is a war zone. Every other country that ever engaged in a war inflicted civilian casualties. The results will be higher in war zones where the militants hide and are suported by the civilian population.
Originally posted by tonton
bulldozed homes that were legally owned property, erected barriers on public land to "keep out" unwanted ethnicities would be internationally condemned (except the US of course).
The homes that are targetted are targetted with reason. Usually, they are owned by families of bombers. The barrier has nothing to do with stopping unwanted ethnicities. It stops murderous suicide bombers of all races.
Originally posted by tonton
The Israeli government and Hamas are both terrorist organizations.
Well, you are half right.
Originally posted by tonton
I've never seen so many racists in my life. They clearly think that the [Arabs] are better than the [Jews], even though both sides keep killing eachother. When the [Jews] kill innocent [arabs], they are outraged, but when the [arabs] kill innocent [jews] Palestinians are just "freedom fighters".
Originally posted by tonton
Now as far as who started this freaking war... Israel stole their land. STOLE IT.
Overly vague...when?
Now as far as who stared this freaking war...Arabs stole their land. STOLE IT. Oh, they also tried to ethnically cleanse the area. An accusation often thrown at Israel too..of course if that were true, and they put as much effort into it as the Arabs did, their wouldn't be a war right now..just an Israel.
Originally posted by tonton
And then you say "but the negotiations" (whine whine whine). I say again. Let's say Israel stole California from YOU and after decades of negotiation finally told you you could have the Mojave desert but only if you agree to drop any further claim for more territory. Let's say Israel decided to bulldoze your HOME at 4 in the morning. Like you wouldn't be pissed and try any means necessary to stop the bulldozers...
Well, what if the Native Americans stole California. Would the aboriginal people of the area be accused of stealing it, especially if the UN approved, no created, the conditions for the transfer of the land to the Natives?
The response to your statements is simple. Prove that the rally was not.
Asking someone to prove a negative is fatally flawed, logically....as good as meaningless. In criminal court cases (in democracies), the onus is on the prosecution to prove guilt, rather than on the defendant to prove innocence, and for good reason. For the same reason, asking S.H. to prove that he had no WMD was an impossible request, whether he did, or didn't.